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Hi,

I'm just wondering if the Imperials have any SSDs left at the time of the NJO?

At least one if i'm not wrong

One new-build, possibly the Defiant.

Where's the Chimaera?

Could someone PM me what happened to this grand flagship?

Cyaround,
Jason

The Chimaera is still about. It fought with Pelleaon at Ithor.

It was almost lost at


*spoiler*





Battle of Bastion in Remnant

SPOILERS:
















As of SOTP, the Empire had roughly 200 ISDs remaining. As of Destiny's Way, they had a SSD. The Chimera was heavily damaged at the battle of Bastion, and is currently being repaired at Yaga Minor.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:SPOILERS:
















As of SOTP, the Empire had roughly 200 ISDs remaining. As of Destiny's Way, they had a SSD. The Chimera was heavily damaged at the battle of Bastion, and is currently being repaired at Yaga Minor.

In addition, they also had an assload of more star destroyers by that timer. Han was impressed with the size of their fleet and their ability to help turn the tide of the war, and when you consider that the battles in the NJO trypically involve hundreds of ships (the Battle of Black Bantha involved 1000 vong ships and 900 NR, fighters not counted, they hit Duros with a few dozen, Arkania with a Black Bantha sized fleet, Equab 9 with their entire offensive fleet even though it was only suppossed to kill the head of the NR, and Borealis with an assload) it strongly suggests higher numbers then 200. It appears the IR has a significant ship construction program going on.

Soontir C'boath wrote: Where's the Chimaera?

Chimaerais an ISD-II, not an SSD.

Ender wrote:In addition, they also had an assload of more star destroyers by that timer. Han was impressed with the size of their fleet and their ability to help turn the tide of the war, and when you consider that the battles in the NJO typically involve hundreds of ships (the Battle of Black Bantha involved 1000 vong ships and 900 NR, fighters not counted, they hit Duros with a few dozen, Arkania with a Black Bantha sized fleet, Equab 9 with their entire offensive fleet even though it was only suppossed to kill the head of the NR, and Borealis with an assload) it strongly suggests higher numbers then 200. It appears the IR has a significant ship construction program going on.

Yes, but the average ship involved at these engagements is inferior to an ISD. Two-hundred ISDs does not seem like a stretch considering the number of support and smaller vessels go with that.

Also, since the Galactic Alliance thwarted the Vong at Ebaq, and the IR gets the shit kicked out of them, I'd hardly throw the Empire's diddly 8 sectors credit for "turning the tide of the war" against the Vong.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yes, but the average ship involved at these engagements is inferior to an ISD. Two-hundred ISDs does not seem like a stretch considering the number of support and smaller vessels go with that.

Also, since the Galactic Alliance thwarted the Vong at Ebaq, and the IR gets the shit kicked out of them, I'd hardly throw the Empire's diddly 8 sectors credit for "turning the tide of the war" against the Vong.

200 dreadnaughts turned the tide in the Thrawn Trilogy did they not? Daala's three ISDs were enough to fuck with the NR for a little while. For whatever reason in SW, small numbers of ships seem to be powerful enough that even huge galaxy spanning civilizations will be largely effected by them.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:200 dreadnaughts turned the tide in the Thrawn Trilogy did they not? Daala's three ISDs were enough to fuck with the NR for a little while. For whatever reason in SW, small numbers of ships seem to be powerful enough that even huge galaxy spanning civilizations will be largely effected by them.

Really?

Prove the Katana fleet was winning the campiagn for Thrawn.

It seems to me just part of the beefing-up of for his major assualts and psyops strategy he employed. He used the dreaded Katana fleet to beef up his own forward offensive fleets, and used clones in the most intense assaults in order to give his forces the edge; he only had fifty thousand cylinders or so, he couldn't produce that many troops to really affect his overall production.

This ditrabe about Daala is bullshit. She conducted terrorist assaults. She didn't really cause any damage at all except the hit on Mon Calamari, which had just been hit before by the Emperor's World Devestators, and given that only one cruiser was shown to be in the late stages of construction, it seems ship production may have been moved elsewhere, so it wasn't a very "hard" target.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Prove the Katana fleet was winning the campiagn for Thrawn.

It seems to me just part of the beefing-up of for his major assualts and psyops strategy he employed. He used the dreaded Katana fleet to beef up his own forward offensive fleets, and used clones in the most intense assaults in order to give his forces the edge; he only had fifty thousand cylinders or so, he couldn't produce that many troops to really affect his overall production.

Lifted from the EGTC:

"but now, with both sides in the Galactic Civil War desperatley in need of warships, the aquisition if the lost armada could tip the scales."

They were also obviously worth losing other ships for the fleet, as Thrawn and the NR did battle for them (fleet numbers unknown, however).

And the point is that a mere 200 (Thrawn walked away with 185, actually) ships did give Thrawn the edge. Having 200 extra ships lying around for the most intense assualts is always a good thing, you know. In that way they did have a large effect on the entire war.

EDIT: Forget the Daala thing, that was dumb.

Oh come on now. It was stated over and over that they couldn't allow Thrawn to obtain those ships because it would 'turn the tide of the war' to the Empire's favor. Despite the fact that in every single source, even the Trilogy that Dreads are pieces of fucking shit.

The IR may have had 200 ISDs at the time of SotP, but what other ships did they posses? Frigates, cruisers, and the whatnot? It is pretty surprising that so few ships over and over are 'feared' in the Galaxy. Personally to me it's some bullshit contrived from the anals of the EU databanks. Either way, that's whats up.

It is EU bullshit. We know the calcs for fleet size just based on what the NR and GE need to simply patrol their borders. Marina made it painfully clear the Empire needed millions and millions of ships merely to hold its own territory and keep the peace. Zahn's stupidity and inability to recognize decent scale (he loved WEG) and thus thinking 200 frigate-scale "dreadnoughts" and several tens-of-thousands of clone cylinders would be the all-to-beat-all.

You'll excuse me if I try and fit the Dreadnoughts and clones into the realistic numbers and how they were used in the books over how they were referred to in typical exaggerating "danger of the week" way in the EU. They shit lightning and fart thunder! Run! Scary!

Fact of the matter is that Thrawn used clones in his forward assaults in order to give his TIE squadrons and stormies the edge. He beefed up his attack fleets with the dreaded Katana fleet. There simply were not enough clones or Dreadnoughts to affect his overall troop numbers and fleet strength. Therefore I can only assume they were utilized for psyops (Thrawn did this A LOT, making people freak the fuck out over stupid shit) and for beefing-up his offensive battle groups on the frontlines.

Now Corran comments how the Katana fleet could flip the war one way or the other during the X-Wing Series. Do you expect me to just take that dialogue at face-value? It is just like how people took the impressions of the Hand of Thrawn Duology and assumed the Chiss were ubermesnch with thousands of ISDs ready to crush the silly Rebels, and we discovered this wasn't the case.

EU dialogue and face-value statements from source materials is as worthless as Star Trek character dailogue.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It is EU bullshit. We know the calcs for fleet size just based on what the NR and GE need to simply patrol their borders. Marina made it painfully clear the Empire needed millions and millions of ships merely to hold its own territory and keep the peace. Zahn's stupidity and inability to recognize decent scale (he loved WEG) and thus thinking 200 frigate-scale "dreadnoughts" and several tens-of-thousands of clone cylinders would be the all-to-beat-all.

Despite there small numbers, the point stands that they were vital to the war. Everyone was making a big deal out of, they fought a battle over them. Thats right, they were willing to lose ships for this fleet.

Corran comments how the Katana fleet could flip the war one way or the other during the X-Wing Series. Do you expect me to just take that dialogue at face-value? It is just like how people took the impressions of the Hand of Thrawn Duology and assumed the Chiss were ubermesnch with thousands of ISDs ready to crush the silly Rebels, and we discovered this wasn't the case.

In all the sources I've seen the Katana Fleet was a make-or-break moment for the NR. Like the EGTC quote above.

As for the Chiss, you've given us evidence that they are inferior. You have not given us evidence that the Katana Fleet was no big deal.

EU dialogue and face-value statements from source materials is as worthless as Star Trek character dailogue.

Sourcebooks also stress the importance fo the Katana Fleet. And dialouge was backed up by the fact that the NR had a sapce battle for the Fleet! If 200 Dreadnaughts were insignificantly useless, why would have either side bothered? Why didn't the NR just let Thrawn have them if they were worthless? They fought over them, so they must have been important.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It is EU bullshit. We know the calcs for fleet size just based on what the NR and GE need to simply patrol their borders. Marina made it painfully clear the Empire needed millions and millions of ships merely to hold its own territory and keep the peace. Zahn's stupidity and inability to recognize decent scale (he loved WEG) and thus thinking 200 frigate-scale "dreadnoughts" and several tens-of-thousands of clone cylinders would be the all-to-beat-all.

Despite there small numbers, the point stands that they were vital to the war. Everyone was making a big deal out of, they fought a battle over them. Thats right, they were willing to lose ships for this fleet.

It is not hard to understand. The forces they were fighting over the Katana fleet with were not worth as much as the Katana fleet. The Katana fleet is two hundred frigate-class vessels that a handful of SDs and NR ships fought over. The net worth of the Katana fleet is greater than the net worth of the combatants at their location. This does not mean that the Katana fleet could swing a war one way or another. That is an enormous leap in logic.

And what they say is not demonstrated by events in The Last Command and it practically absurd. What they say does not make it realistic or fact.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Corran comments how the Katana fleet could flip the war one way or the other during the X-Wing Series. Do you expect me to just take that dialogue at face-value? It is just like how people took the impressions of the Hand of Thrawn Duology and assumed the Chiss were ubermesnch with thousands of ISDs ready to crush the silly Rebels, and we discovered this wasn't the case.

In all the sources I've seen the Katana Fleet was a make-or-break moment for the NR. Like the EGTC quote above.

And they lost it AND they found out Thrawn was making clones. Yet the Republic held together despite the fact we know the Republic is politically unstable, and they still controlled more than half the galaxy. Thrawn just kicked more ass more easily with the advantages represented by the Katana fleet and Mount Tantiss for his offensive.

Answer the question. In a galaxy where millions and millions of massive vessels are needed for patrolling territory, are you going to take some fight jockey's opinion as 100% fact, regardless?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:As for the Chiss, you've given us evidence that they are inferior. You have not given us evidence that the Katana Fleet was no big deal.

Do you think a single ancient fleet of vessels, that, when compared with the scale of KDY standard ships and the Empire's production capabilities, is merely a frigate-scale vessel, that cannot project power like the Imperator-class destroyer can, and that can be destroyed by groups of heavy bombers is significant in a "make or break" fashion? Merely because they say so?

Despite the fact we know ISDs can be churned out in batches every couple months by hundreds and maybe thousands?

That millions of heavy vessels are needed merely to hold down the territory of somethign spanning a galaxy?

All of this because of some line of dialogue from EU authors who HAVE DEMONSTRATED a lack of understanding of galactic scale from the canon movies as well as even normal combat from the movies?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:EU dialogue and face-value statements from source materials is as worthless as Star Trek character dailogue.

Sourcebooks also stress the importance fo the Katana Fleet. And dialouge was backed up by the fact that the NR had a sapce battle for the Fleet! If 200 Dreadnaughts were insignificantly useless, why would have either side bothered? Why didn't the NR just let Thrawn have them if they were worthless? They fought over them, so they must have been important.

Because it is a political prize. Thrawn's reclaimation of the Katana fleet is powerful. The Katana fleet itself is almost mystical to some in-universe characters. Because the ships that were fighting over the Katana fleet; their net worth is lower than the net worth of the Katana fleet. That isn't hard to understand. That also doesn't require the absurd hyperbole bullshit that Zahn and Anderson have crammed down our throats.

Like I said, Thrawn pulls these political and psychological shows all the time to try and minimize the actual fighting his forces are forced to do.

I'll paint a picture.

Imagine trying to lead an offensive across a galactic front to retake territory.

Imagine how much easier this becomes when your frontline elements can be bolstered with reserves from an ancient fleet regarded almost mystically by many in the galaxy. Imagine the practical and psychological affect of that.

Imagine how much easier this becomes when your frontline elements appear to be able to fire through planetary shields, and planets surrender without fighting.

Imagine how much easier this becomes when clones are discovered, and all the memories and fears from the Clone Wars comes back.

Imagine how much easier this becomes when these clones result in your forward elements being stocked with wings of perfect TIE aces fresh from Spaarti cylinders. Stormtroopers with the skill of Kir Kanos or any other Royal Guardsman. AT-AT commanders with the tactical keen of General Veers. Officers with Thrawn's own genius in their minds.

Now you see why these things mattered? They made Thrawn's forces very difficult to fight head-to-head. I prefer not to take the uberthreat vibe which is often abused throughout the EU and does not make any sense when taken holistically with canon on top and realism of scale taken into account.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It is not hard to understand. The forces they were fighting over the Katana fleet with were not worth as much as the Katana fleet. The Katana fleet is two hundred frigate-class vessels that a handful of SDs and NR ships fought over. The net worth of the Katana fleet is greater than the net worth of the combatants at their location. This does not mean that the Katana fleet could swing a war one way or another. That is an enormous leap in logic.

Could have swore there were more thn a "handful" of ships, but I'll take your word for it. I can see how it would be beneficial for them.

And they lost it AND they found out Thrawn was making clones. Yet the Republic held together despite the fact we know the Republic is politically unstable, and they still controlled more than half the galaxy. Thrawn just kicked more ass more easily with the advantages represented by the Katana fleet and Mount Tantiss for his offensive.

Well that is a bit different. The ships were important to Thrawn (being in a ship-starved post-ROTJ Empire) for his clones, while it may not have been important to the Republic, having all the ships in the majority fo the galaxy. By that token, the Republic didn't need them, but they didn't want Thrawn to have them either.

Answer the question. In a galaxy where millions and millions of massive vessels are needed for patrolling territory, are you going to take some fight jockey's opinion as 100% fact, regardless?

Again, there are multiple sourcebooks that claim likewise, however-one thing to consider is that the "millions of ships" may not combat ships. That instead combat ships are the minority of the NRs fleet, and so when 200 battlewagons do stroll in, they become important.

Do you think a single ancient fleet of vessels, that, when compared with the scale of KDY standard ships and the Empire's production capabilities, is merely a frigate-scale vessel, that cannot project power like the Imperator-class destroyer can, and that can be destroyed by groups of heavy bombers is significant in a "make or break" fashion? Merely because they say so?

The Katana Fleet is stressed by numerous sources. As above, it seems more likely it was important because of Thrawns use for them, not theirs. After all, even that small edge Thrawn can get in battle with them is important.

Because it is a political prize. Thrawn's reclaimation of the Katana fleet is powerful. The Katana fleet itself is almost mystical to some in-universe characters. Because the ships that were fighting over the Katana fleet; their net worth is lower than the net worth of the Katana fleet. That isn't hard to understand. That also doesn't require the absurd hyperbole bullshit that Zahn and Anderson have crammed down our throats.

Like I said, Thrawn pulls these political and psychological shows all the time to try and minimize the actual fighting his forces are forced to do.

I'll paint a picture.<snip>

Point taken. The Katana Fleet gave Thrawn a psychological edge, ect. Makes sense now. Once again I have been enlightened. Concession granted.

IG-88E wrote:

Soontir C'boath wrote: Where's the Chimaera?

Chimaerais an ISD-II, not an SSD.

I never questioned it was one. I know it is not an Executor-class

And thanks to Thrawn for the story

Cyaround,
Jason

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:SPOILERS:
















As of SOTP, the Empire had roughly 200 ISDs remaining. As of Destiny's Way, they had a SSD. The Chimera was heavily damaged at the battle of Bastion, and is currently being repaired at Yaga Minor.

You don't happen to remember the name of that SSD?

At the beginning, the Empire sent all of one Star Destroyer to stake its claim - the Judicator.

The New Republic started out with one frigate, and Rogue Squadron.

Judicator's TIE squadrons #1 and #3 engaged Rogue Squadron. I forgot what #2 and #4 were doing, but #5 (a recce unit) was ordered to engage Karrde's smugglers who came in somewhere in the fray.

Judicator then decided to take her kid's gloves off and move into battle herself. But then Bel Iblis sent all of six Dreadnaughts to assist (to be fair, that's about all he had, but the NR is sending no more help. In fact, Borsk was trying to get them to withdraw.) They successfully suppressed the Judicator with ion fire.

So the Imperials sent one more destroyer, the Peremptory. It winds up being partially disabled by ion fire, and a Katana Dreadnaught killed it by ram collision.

One thing is for certain. Not a whole lot of commitment either. Either it is not important, or they were unable to spare other ships.
Primary Source is what I can remember of DFR. I'm pretty sure the general idea is there, but a small detail in sequencing might have gone wrong.

If they were important, it is only because of psychology OR because they were extra forces available at a critical junction. The forces that are available to Thrawn certainly seem very limited (a Grand Admiral, and the best ship he can find as flag is the ISD Chimaera, when even Zsinj gets a SSD.) The forces available to the New Republic to stop Thrawn might also be very limited.

Thrawn's Core Star Destroyer force and the NR Battle Fleet seem to be levers. Concentrating on the correct places, they can influence the course of the galaxy even though they are actually very small forces

Crazy Ivan wrote:You don't happen to remember the name of that SSD?

I'm fairly confident the name is the Defiant A ship described as a Star Destroyer (no class given, so it could be any) was described mounting rare and expensive equipment on it (indicating it is a command type ship as you would not mount that on say a Vicstar), firing missiles (Which ISDs appear to lack, on the Chimera there are proton torpedo launcehers, not Concussion missile launchers, and the Chimera had undergone a standard NR ISD refit when it was captured before the imperials got it back so torps are not common on ISDs now in the IR), and it ripped a hole in the Vong fleet led by 2 their equivlent to the Allegiance class Star Destroyer.

So the fact that it did so well agaisnt the Vong fleet rules out a VSD (as it took a Bothan Assault Carrier aiding one to damage the Vong equivlent to an ISD, much less an ASSD), the presence of missiles rules out an ISD, and the fact that it had the best equipment on it incidates it was new and a command ship, both which support the idea it was the SSD.

So I believe the name of it is Defiant.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Thrawn's Core Star Destroyer force and the NR Battle Fleet seem to be levers. Concentrating on the correct places, they can influence the course of the galaxy even though they are actually very small forces

Or Zahn is a dumbass.

Come on, did ever occur to anyone we never see ANY of the rest of the Imperial front or warfleets? We never see Thrawn running an Empire.

Soontir C'boath wrote: I never questioned it was one. I know it is not an Executor-class

I was under the impression that you thought it was one, since you made that comment right after the SSD question.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Thrawn's Core Star Destroyer force and the NR Battle Fleet seem to be levers. Concentrating on the correct places, they can influence the course of the galaxy even though they are actually very small forces

Or Zahn is a dumbass.

Come on, did ever occur to anyone we never see ANY of the rest of the Imperial front or warfleets? We never see Thrawn running an Empire.

Thrawn never ran any Empire, He commanded the Empires Navy, The Navy answered and still does to the Imperial Moffs who rule the Imperial Sectors.