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I'm not questioning Yoda's personal skill or power, just pointing out that his extended "family" hasn't had the best track record from the Jedi' point of view.


Dooku: Yoda's Padawan leave's the Jedi and becomes the apprentice to the only Sith Master to make his presence known in the last thousand years.

Qui-Gon: Dooku's Padawan. Became a Jedi Master but was a bit of a pain in the ass for the Jedi Council. He insisted that Anakin Skywalker be trained and even made Obi-Wan promise to do it. That worked out well didn't it?

Obi-Wan: Decent Jedi but agreed to take Anakin Skywalker as his Padawan learner even though he had previously agreed that Anakin was dangerous. He also has a weird "point of view" when it comes to the truth when he's older.

Anakin Skywalker: Obi-Wan's padawan, did not go well. Despite eventually killing a Sith Master does that make up for killing his own
Master, helping to eliminate the Jedi Order and all the other stuff he did as Darth Vader?

Luke Skywalker: I guess he was kind of a joint project of Yoda and Obi-Wan that turned out okay in the films.

Luke turned to the dark side too inthe EU. Sad thing is, it didn't change him as you'd expect.

Consider:

Palpatine is just cool.
Maul is cool.
Dooku's cool.
Darksidation turned weeny little Mannequin into the uber-cool Darth Vader.

Do you see the pattern here?

But what happened to Luke when he turned? Nothing! He remained a weeny little pain in the posterior! No sudden coolification, nothing! Damn GL, why does he create such weeny characters? Does he have a soft spot for them? Is he perhaps trying to create characters that he feels superior to? Nobody knows! But he persists in creating them, despite our displeasure! He even tried to put N'SYNC into the movies, and IGNORED the complaints of Star Wars fans, and only removed them when the TEENY-BOPPER N'SYNC LOVING WEINERS complained! See! Weiners agian! What is with this guy?????????????

Ooh.

Sorry about that little rant there, but you just have to get these things off of your chest every now and agian.

So what you're saying is that there is no Dark Side just the Cool Side which seems to be the oposite of the Anal Retentive side that the Jedi seem to like so much?

Nope. There's still a "Dark Side" and a "Light Side", but there is also the "Cool Side" and the "Weeny Side".

Dark and Light are mutually exclusive, as are Cool and Weeny.

Most Dark is cool, and most Cool is Dark. Most Light is Weeny and most Weeny is light.

But Dark and Weeny aren't mutually exclusive. (proof: Puke Stystalker)
Neither are Light and Cool. (Proof: Yoda, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu)

Well the Visual Dictionary says that Mace Windu's style of lightsaber fighting puts him dangerously close to Sith territory. Pushing the cooool envelope.

Like Samuel L. Jackson could ever be a weeny.

I said Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan were cool.

Maybe Qui-Gon too, though I can imagine him being a hippy on modern-day earth, which kinda lowers him in my estimation a bit.

But other than that, Ween, ween, ween.

<half serious mode>Perhaps the Jedi should have adopted the Assemly's (from Feist Universe, Kelewan, Pug = Milamber) and just culled anyone that had potential, but could have gone to the Dark side.</half serious mode>

But think about it though, Dukoo only turned after Qui-Gon died, so really hightened emotional stress factor.

Qui-Gon, rebel who was desperately seeking Yoda's approval, didn't get it and became depressed.

Obi-Wan, know-it-all, who later admitted that he didn't and his arrogance at defing Yoda led to the Anakin/Vader catastrophy.

Anakin, Yoda had reservations from the beginning, and was over ruled by the council in the end, IIRC it is stated in the novelisation.

Luke, well after Anakin anything else would be an improvment wouldn't it?

Not sure if I argued for or against Yoda there, but my feelings are definetely pro-Yoda...

Fuck! Mispelled Dooku!

Lusankya wrote:But what happened to Luke when he turned? Nothing! He remained a weeny little pain in the posterior! No sudden coolification, nothing! Damn GL, why does he create such weeny characters?

Don't blame GL for Luke's lack of coolness when he turned. It was some Comic Book EU writer who failed to add in the cool factor!

Heck not even Zahn could make Luke look good that has to say somthing right there

Let's get back on the topic.

Don't forget that Yoda has trained probably thousands of Jedi throughout his entire life, and that a tiny fraction of them turned to the Dark Side and/or broke away from the Jedi Order. According to a deleted scene in AotC, Jocasta Nu (the Jedi librarian) told Obi-Wan Kenobi that only ten Jedi ever broke away from the Jedi Order. And that does not necessarily mean that all ten were Yoda's padawans, because the Jedi Order has been around much longer than Yoda.

Tsyroc wrote:Well the Visual Dictionary says that Mace Windu's style of lightsaber fighting puts him dangerously close to Sith territory. Pushing the cooool envelope.

Like Samuel L. Jackson could ever be a weeny.

Well, just because Samuel L. Jackson is cool doesn't mean he's not part of the light side. Still, how do you know all those other Jedi on Geonosis are weiners? Some fo them might be, but if they turned to the dark side, they'd be just as fruity.

You cannot blame Yoda for what happened after Obi-Wan took Anakin. That is like blaming Hitler's parents for the Holocaust. Obi-Wan had obviously grown up enough to make decisions for himself. He defied Yoda's expressed will on the matter when he took Anakin, and his mistakes from then on are not Yoda's.

In any case, I think of Yoda as a tragic figure. He is obviously a powerful Jedi, and an extremely wise one, but he is also a victim of the circumstance. Indeed, it appears as if all of his apprentices that you mentioned made mistakes that were their own. I don't think that Yoda can be blamed for their actions, though I think it will be interesting in Episode III to see exactly what happened that made Dooku turn.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Let's get back on the topic.

Don't forget that Yoda has trained probably thousands of Jedi throughout his entire life, and that a tiny fraction of them turned to the Dark Side and/or broke away from the Jedi Order. According to a deleted scene in AotC, Jocasta Nu (the Jedi librarian) told Obi-Wan Kenobi that only ten Jedi ever broke away from the Jedi Order. And that does not necessarily mean that all ten were Yoda's padawans, because the Jedi Order has been around much longer than Yoda.

I thought it was 20 that left, not that it matters. I guess if you look at it from the point of view that at some point Yoda has trained nearly all of the Jedi (the younglings) within the last couple hundred years then any of those who were problems were statistical annomolies that he really couldn't do much about.

I guess it would be more apropriate to blame things on Dooku if we were going to blame things on the teacher and not on the individual decisions of each person involved.

[serious] Yoda seemed to teach all of the young Jedi, who would also be apprenticed to anpther Jedi. Perhaps all Jedi were considered to be his Padawan, because he took a role in teaching all of them. [/serious]

And the other Jedi were all weens too.

Well, you could blame Hitler's father for not raising him right. That was why he was screwed up. The father beat his children....but then again, I think a lot of people hit their kids when they did something bad or whatnot at that time. But he beat them for the sake of beating them. So....I dunno. I think a lot of it had to do with his entire background. He had problems with his family, was poor, etc.

I don't know. I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Luke is pretty cool when he goes to meet Vader at the Endor base. And the whole Palpy, Vader, Luke play is great story stuff. He isn't a weak puke there. -?-

Not all Jedi are wimpy uncool boys. Some are cool. They are just good. Its like paradise lost. Satan gets all the best lines, but it doesn't make God uncool in the story. It just means that the writer is too lame to give his character's good dialogue.

I have a question. In Episode 6, Obi-won states that he thought he could be a good a teacher as Yoda taught him. But Qui-gon was clearly Obi-won's teachers. Did Yoda instruct Obi-won at some other point?

I have a hard time beliveing that you dont think anything happend to Luke after he turned toward the dark side. Now Luke can use force powers that seem very close to the dark side but he can resist it since he knows what happens. He even tells his New Jedi Order what things to watch out for in his own experiences. Plus if he wasnt the greatest Jedi the Jedi Order would have died when he died on the Second Death Side, so he shouldnt have such a negative effect after going to the Dark Side.