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This situation happens entirely in the confines of the old EU. So anything created after the cannon split does not enter it.

Imagine for a moment the following situation. The time is right between ESB and ROTJ. The death star has been destroyed but a new one is under construction. The rebels are massing support whilst the Empire tries to hunt them down. It is at this point however that a small cannon change they could not have expected returns to bite them. You see, instead of being destroyed in this alternative the ships of Outbound Flight survived and guided by the force emerged in a long forgotten place along the galactic edge. There they found an ancient installation abandoned and among the stars. That installation was the Star Forge. For years the dark place held the Jedi enthralled twisting and corrupting them, selectively feeding them knowledge about what the clone war and other events. And now they return not as explorers but a conquering army of the sith. Now obviously they have no intention of sharing the galaxy with either a new republic or the Empire. But they are smart enough to be tactical about things.

So what happens?

What Jedi? The original roster or the final, changed by Palpatine one?

If original, they stand a chance, if not, well, Palpatine kept corrupted dark side clone of Joruus C'Baoth as doorkeeper so he would need a major boost in power to not end up the same.

Also, the Outbound Flight happened in dark, dark era of EU where SW was still cool and Jedi Master fights weren't yet reduced to jumping squirrel on steroids we got in AotC but were huge, terryfying events. So, if C'Baoth keeps the strength he had in EU then he will reduce Mr I-Can't-Even-Beat-Windu to ash

Irbis wrote:What Jedi? The original roster or the final, changed by Palpatine one?

To use your words, which ever one allows C'Baoth to reduce Mr I-Can't-Even-Beat-Windu to ash

Basically the premise is that Palpatine for some reason did not catch wind of the whole thing happening until it was too late to do anything about it. So he just sort of tried to wing it and failed to destroy them. And this allowed the force to steer them down to the SF.

Well, original roster included Anakin and Obi Wan. So, yeah

If there is really Sith invasion on top of rebels and Zaarin uprising, I see Emperor not bothering with elaborate DS2 traps but instead finishing station and destroying everyone that way. Or even Palpatine being dead, having failed to kill Windu 30 years prior. Hard to say.

Irbis wrote:Well, original roster included Anakin and Obi Wan. So, yeah

In that case assume that basically cannon is maintained. In other words, there are no changes to the original roster or anything other than those which are required to maintain the events of the rest of the old cannon. So Anakin can't be on it because we see him in the movies that happen later and we need him to make Luke. But none of the other changes happened and no funky evil force clone guy.

If there is really Sith invasion on top of rebels and Zaarin uprising, I see Emperor not bothering with elaborate DS2 traps but instead finishing station and destroying everyone that way. Or even Palpatine being dead, having failed to kill Windu 30 years prior. Hard to say.

That's why I set it between ESB and ROTJ. The DS2 is nowhere near completion at that point. So can the invading sith overwhelm the empire?

The Empire has some experience dealing with huge swarms of attacking robots. If anything, this will make the Empire even stronger by giving it a genuine external enemy to rally the galaxy against.

Propaganda victory of a lifetime for Palpatine.

"Evil Jedi, after trying to destroy the Republic from within, find an ancient robotic factory, and produce millions of robotic ships and combat droids to try and conquer the galaxy."

Yeah, I can't possibly see how Palpatine will have to worry about rebellion when the entire galaxy is begging him to save the day.

That's what I was thinking as well. I wonder how the rebels would react to all this. Would they throw in with either side or just sort of try and stay out of the way?

If they were smart, stay out of the way. If they join with the Empire, they will get back-stabbed eventually. If they join with the Jedi invaders, they lose all sympathy with the general public. Either way they are screwed, so the best bet is to go into hiding and use this time to rebuild and rearm so that when the time for rebellion comes again, they'll be better off.

Borgholio wrote:If they were smart, stay out of the way. If they join with the Empire, they will get back-stabbed eventually. If they join with the Jedi invaders, they lose all sympathy with the general public. Either way they are screwed, so the best bet is to go into hiding and use this time to rebuild and rearm so that when the time for rebellion comes again, they'll be better off.

But won't that screw them just as well? I mean these are the people who just blew up a death star and gave the Empire a bloody nose. That has to count for something in the minds of potential sympathizers. So if they stay out of the fighting who ever wins is going to have a huge propaganda victory simply by pointing this out.

It might, yeah. But I can't see anything good coming out of joining either side. They'll either be affiliated with a new threat to the people of the galaxy or they'll be setting themselves up to be backstabbed by Palpatine as soon as the threat subsides. Even if that doesn't happen and the rebellion resumes, you'll have the rebels fighting the very emperor that saved the galaxy...that will not be good for public perception.

I honestly can't see a good choice for the Rebel Alliance in this scenario. THey have three choices:

1. Side with the Outbound Flight mad Jedi, quite possibly lose to the Empire, but even if they win, now they have 18 (possibly more) Dark Side users to deal with, not just 2 and I somehow suspect that C'Baoth and Co's vision for a restored Republic will not be the same as Mon Mothma's

2. Side with the Empire and probably have the Alliance fracture in days. Certainly they lose any moral high ground support from the galactic population. If they win, and they probably will, the EMpire will be in a wonderfully strong PR position to turn on the Alliance, after all, they're led by another of the fugitive Jedi who already destroyed our Peace Moon (er, Death Star).

3. Stay out of the fighting. IN that case, whichever side wins will be after them next and they lose any support from the populace for being "cowards" who hid from the fight. If the Outbound Flight bunch wins, they will want Luke and Leia to join them for "proper training." If the Empire wins, well, Palpatine just saved the galaxy, no one is going to want to oppose him militarily.

Seriously, the Rebellion would be fucked.

I wonder if either side would win though. The whole thing might well end up in a bloody stalemate where each side controls half of the galaxy.

Alliance of Rebellion and Zaarin?

Seriously, if someone distracted Thrawn back then and Zaarin deepened existing ties with Rebellion, you might have seen rebels gain massive technological advantage on both sides plus more than double their fleet. Of course, Zaarin would have demanded concessions, so rebel leadership could have changed.

Irbis wrote:Alliance of Rebellion and Zaarin?

Seriously, if someone distracted Thrawn back then and Zaarin deepened existing ties with Rebellion, you might have seen rebels gain massive technological advantage on both sides plus more than double their fleet. Of course, Zaarin would have demanded concessions, so rebel leadership could have changed.

Trouble is, even a double-size fleet doesn't help much against the full strength of the Imperial Navy. Or what the Star Forge can apparently turn out.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I honestly can't see a good choice for the Rebel Alliance in this scenario. THey have three choices:

1. Side with the Outbound Flight mad Jedi, quite possibly lose to the Empire, but even if they win, now they have 18 (possibly more) Dark Side users to deal with, not just 2 and I somehow suspect that C'Baoth and Co's vision for a restored Republic will not be the same as Mon Mothma's

2. Side with the Empire and probably have the Alliance fracture in days. Certainly they lose any moral high ground support from the galactic population. If they win, and they probably will, the EMpire will be in a wonderfully strong PR position to turn on the Alliance, after all, they're led by another of the fugitive Jedi who already destroyed our Peace Moon (er, Death Star).

3. Stay out of the fighting. IN that case, whichever side wins will be after them next and they lose any support from the populace for being "cowards" who hid from the fight. If the Outbound Flight bunch wins, they will want Luke and Leia to join them for "proper training." If the Empire wins, well, Palpatine just saved the galaxy, no one is going to want to oppose him militarily.

Seriously, the Rebellion would be fucked.

They could fight both. Sure, they'd be confronting long odds, but they've dealt with that before. And as Syria sadly proves, there's no reason a civil war can't have more than two sides.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Trouble is, even a double-size fleet doesn't help much against the full strength of the Imperial Navy. Or what the Star Forge can apparently turn out.

Only if you fight them head on. Both sides have very weak points, Star Forge and Death Star II, that can be easily destroyed by massed TIE Defender attack. Rebelion + Zaarin could just ally both, playing them against each other, or hide, trying to build up forces, hit their weak points, and finish off exhausted victor.

Also, no one yet pointed out big problem with the scenario? Even if Star Forge can mass produce modern SW tech, Outbound Flight had what, 60.000 people? Even if they could enslave all petty kingdoms in Unknown Regions, that's awfully small manpower pool for any serious military.

They could make up for the lack of people by using the Star Forge to mass produce droids.

But that means that they'd initially be dependent on one facility, which brings us back to the subject of weak points.

Frankly, I think Palpatine could cripple them in one hour once he'd assembled a big fleet.

If he knows where the Star Forge is.

Irbis wrote: Only if you fight them head on. Both sides have very weak points, Star Forge and Death Star II, that can be easily destroyed by massed TIE Defender attack. Rebelion + Zaarin could just ally both, playing them against each other, or hide, trying to build up forces, hit their weak points, and finish off exhausted victor.

The DSII is only a weak point if the Emperor happens to be on it, and he was only on it before due to a very specific reason not likely to repeat itself. And it was only a weak point at all because the Emperor wanted to be. But it doesn't exist here. Its just the Imperial Navy and I fail to see why it would be even slightly challenged by this scenario.

After reading up on the Star Forge its just a factory. A big one (though still small by Empire construction standards), but nothing close to have the industrial base of an entire galaxy over 30K years more advanced and developed from the time of the Star Forge's construction. Honestly I fail to see how this thing is any more capable than any of a thousand (probably million) SW shipyard planets.

Patroklos wrote:After reading up on the Star Forge its just a factory. A big one (though still small by Empire construction standards), but nothing close to have the industrial base of an entire galaxy over 30K years more advanced and developed from the time of the Star Forge's construction. Honestly I fail to see how this thing is any more capable than any of a thousand (probably million) SW shipyard planets.

Well in KOTOR the SF was capable of producing enough ships to allow the sith to pretty much equal the republic. So barring some sort of massive inefficiency on the republic side or massive amounts of core world shipyards defecting to the sith I'd say it's production capabilities are massive. Also, in my scenario the invading sith did have decades worth of time to build up their forces.

Purple wrote:Well in KOTOR the SF was capable of producing enough ships to allow the sith to pretty much equal the republic. So barring some sort of massive inefficiency on the republic side or massive amounts of core world shipyards defecting to the sith I'd say it's production capabilities are massive. Also, in my scenario the invading sith did have decades worth of time to build up their forces.

In KotOR, Revan and Malak took with them massive army including most of Republic combat veterans, and even that wasn't enough. We see Sith in game run big recruitment drives. It's one thing to equal state weakened after a big war when you just hijacked better part of army, it's another equalling state after massive arms buildup with tiny manpower pool and smaller industry.

Patroklos wrote:The DSII is only a weak point if the Emperor happens to be on it, and he was only on it before due to a very specific reason not likely to repeat itself. And it was only a weak point at all because the Emperor wanted to be. But it doesn't exist here. Its just the Imperial Navy and I fail to see why it would be even slightly challenged by this scenario.

It's still massive resource and manpower commitment that could be huge, easy victory for rebellion. Zaarin knew where it was, as well as all Empire's advanced starfighter factories. Kill both while Empire is distracted and you get TIE Fighters fighting Defenders.

After reading up on the Star Forge its just a factory. A big one (though still small by Empire construction standards), but nothing close to have the industrial base of an entire galaxy over 30K years more advanced and developed from the time of the Star Forge's construction. Honestly I fail to see how this thing is any more capable than any of a thousand (probably million) SW shipyard planets.

Wasn't the middle ball DS I sized? Or do I remember wrong?

Anyway, as long as no one knows where it is, it gives Dark Jedi ability to run "rebellion" on much bigger scale than real one and we know Empire wasn't that good dealing with them.

The Empire didn't have trouble with the Rebellion because of any material reason. Even when they had a tech advantage such as in star fighters this was easily countered by scale with plenty spare.

They had trouble with them because of guerrilla tactics only possible due to support from a small segment of the population and exploiting some very specific situations. The out bound flight guys might find exploitable situations of their own but that's not guaranteed, but they certainly won't have any in Galaxy support.

Irbis wrote:In KotOR, Revan and Malak took with them massive army including most of Republic combat veterans, and even that wasn't enough. We see Sith in game run big recruitment drives. It's one thing to equal state weakened after a big war when you just hijacked better part of army, it's another equalling state after massive arms buildup with tiny manpower pool and smaller industry.

We see them recruiting yes, but for soldiers and not starships. I just had a cutscene not two days ago (am playing KOTOR right now, hence the inspiration for the thread) where a character flat out says that most of the sith fleet is composed of a strange new ship design that they had newer seen before.

Patroklos wrote:The Empire didn't have trouble with the Rebellion because of any material reason. Even when they had a tech advantage such as in star fighters this was easily countered by scale with plenty spare.

It looks a bit different in TIE Fighter campaign. 3 TIE Defenders can kill 12 TIE Fighters or Interceptors without losses. They are not X-Wings that might be more durable but about equal in parameters, they were pretty much game changers. That's why Zaarin stopped bothering attacking anything but Sienar factories, to deny Empire only edge that could still stop him.

They had trouble with them because of guerrilla tactics only possible due to support from a small segment of the population and exploiting some very specific situations. The out bound flight guys might find exploitable situations of their own but that's not guaranteed, but they certainly won't have any in Galaxy support.

Why not? Even fucking Vong had some support, why not guys that can make much better claim to being continuation of the Republic than rebels? Group with real jedi who can incidentally mind influence anyone they see?

They also have extra advantage that if Star Forge makes too much war material for them they can simply bribe resistance groups with spare arms instead of begging them for supplies like rebellion did. In real world, see richer ISIS replacing poorer secular rebels in influence and territory.