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Disney have announced the original unaltered cut of the trilogy on blue ray.

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Nice. I like to see the classics preserved.

Fuck yes. Bring back the bad-ass smuggler.

What's the difference anyway?

Purple wrote:What's the difference anyway?

Oh! Well, if you actually buy the new version, you have slightly less money. It's a subtle but important distinction.

It's an old article and Disney hasn't confirmed anything, but what's interesting is that RMW (formerly Lowry Digital) confirmed on their website earlier this year that they've done a 4K, 16 bit restoration of the OT. It has since been taken down but it can be viewed via the Internet Archive. The screenshots that accompanied can be seen compared to the same frames from the Blu-Ray at the Screenshot Comparison: Set 1, Set 2,

It's not stated which version that's been restored, but it wouldn't be a matter of simply "restoring" the SE CG effects (they would need to be completely redone) and it's clear from the screenshots that the blue tint and oversaturated colors, that plagued both the DVD and BD-editions, are gone.

Lagmonster wrote:

Purple wrote:What's the difference anyway?

Oh! Well, if you actually buy the new version, you have slightly less money. It's a subtle but important distinction.

No, I mean what is the difference in who shot first. I understand why it's a big deal among the nerd community. As it's the probably first and most prominent example of Lucas' crazy editing streak. But I want to know if and why it is a big deal from a narrative standpoint.

Frankly, I don't think so. In both cases Han kills Greedo because the alternative is death. Making Greedo shoot first only serves to batter the point into the audience, going from "Han assumes he's going to get shot and so opts to shoot first" to "Han is actively being shot at and is clearly justified in shooting back". Either way, the point is made that Han will kill to keep himself out of Jabba's hands, so we get a shitty edit trying to vaguely ennoble him.

To be honest, I wouldn't care if the original DID have Greedo taking a pot-shot, Han dodging, and then firing back. What pisses me off isn't what happens, but the fact that the edit itself is really, really clumsy-looking. It makes Greedo look like he's blind and stupid to miss, and the way Han just sits there smirking while a blaster bolt flies past his hair makes the actors look like they weren't told what was happening in the scene.

No, I mean what is the difference in who shot first. I understand why it's a big deal among the nerd community. As it's the probably first and most prominent example of Lucas' crazy editing streak. But I want to know if and why it is a big deal from a narrative standpoint.

Han shooting first is what a real smuggler or pirate would do. Only an idiot would let a bounty hunter draw and fire first. What he did was pragmatic and a smart thing to do for a man in his position. While it might be seen as less than honorable, well....he's a fucking criminal anyways. It's what he does. Over the course of the trilogy we see him gradually ditch his criminal persona and become an actual good guy and a hero. That's his character development and it's a good one...from greedy mercenary to a leader of the Rebellion.

Lucas didn't like that though. He wanted Han to be the good guy from the beginning, and good guys never shoot first (that's actually bullshit but it's how he thinks). So he made Greedo shoot first so it's less morally questionable to blow him away at that point. Trouble is, not only is it pretty stupid from the standpoint of a criminal to let other criminals shoot first, but the special effects edit was a disgusting hack. Greedo's blaster bolt is tiny and barely capable of scorching the wall (original SE edit had the scorch mark missing from the wall in the following scene too), he misses at a range where he could almost have punched Han in the face, and Han is visibly shifted out of the way quicker than any human could move without even shifting his fucking hair!

So it's the screwing over of his character development with the added insult of a shitty CGI job in the process.

Obviously this proves that Han Solo is a near-human shapeshifter.

Borgholio wrote:Trouble is, not only is it pretty stupid from the standpoint of a criminal to let other criminals shoot first, but the special effects edit was a disgusting hack.

<nod> I can't watch that scene without a bit of the title sequence from Police Squad! coming to mind — yes, it's the bit where Leslie Nielsen and a bad guy are shooting at each other from opposite sides of the same rubbish bin... and missing.

That edit made both of them look like complete morons. Han for waiting to be shot at when it was blatantly obvious that Greedo had no intention of taking him in alive, and Greedo for missing at a range where he could have clubbed Han with his blaster.
I'm not shelling out for the BlueRay (cum player) for this one scene and other than that I actually like the ANH SE but I might consider paying for a DVD version of 'Han shot first, otherwise SE' ANH.

I'm not shelling out for the BlueRay (cum player) for this one scene and other than that I actually like the ANH SE but I might consider paying for a DVD version of 'Han shot first, otherwise SE' ANH.

I have the complete OT on DVD in a special set that contains both the Theatrical and SE versions. I have been SORELY tempted over the years to rip the discs and make my own edit where I kept much of the SE except for a few scenes (Han vs Greedo, Luke's miscolored lightsaber, that giant lizard ass blocking the view of the Stormtroopers pulling over Luke's speeder, etc...). But I never got around to it. :-/

Borgholio wrote:Trouble is, not only is it pretty stupid from the standpoint of a criminal to let other criminals shoot first, but the special effects edit was a disgusting hack. Greedo's blaster bolt is tiny and barely capable of scorching the wall (original SE edit had the scorch mark missing from the wall in the following scene too), he misses at a range where he could almost have punched Han in the face, and Han is visibly shifted out of the way quicker than any human could move without even shifting his fucking hair!

So it's the screwing over of his character development with the added insult of a shitty CGI job in the process.

It's truly awful-looking:



The re-done version simply looks bad. Look at the weak little bolt coming out of Greedo's (and Han's, for that matter) blaster. Horrendous.

It's worth mentioning that if you hate all the edits, the best thing to do is not bother buying any discs at all, because Star Wars will *always* age better in your brain than on dvd.

FSTargetDrone wrote:

Borgholio wrote:Trouble is, not only is it pretty stupid from the standpoint of a criminal to let other criminals shoot first, but the special effects edit was a disgusting hack. Greedo's blaster bolt is tiny and barely capable of scorching the wall (original SE edit had the scorch mark missing from the wall in the following scene too), he misses at a range where he could almost have punched Han in the face, and Han is visibly shifted out of the way quicker than any human could move without even shifting his fucking hair!

So it's the screwing over of his character development with the added insult of a shitty CGI job in the process.

It's truly awful-looking:



The re-done version simply looks bad. Look at the weak little bolt coming out of Greedo's (and Han's, for that matter) blaster. Horrendous.

That was re-done again for the Blu-Ray and it looks somewhat better (but still bad, they now also seem to be firing at the same time).

Purple wrote:

Lagmonster wrote:

Purple wrote:What's the difference anyway?

Oh! Well, if you actually buy the new version, you have slightly less money. It's a subtle but important distinction.

No, I mean what is the difference in who shot first. I understand why it's a big deal among the nerd community. As it's the probably first and most prominent example of Lucas' crazy editing streak. But I want to know if and why it is a big deal from a narrative standpoint.

I remember when we were watching in the theater back when it first came out, Han shooting first raised questions about whether he would be honest with Ben and Luke, or try to off them or betray them if it served his purpose. The scene created tension in the movie as to how he would deal with our farmboy hero, especially after they land on the Death Star, as well as a more elaborate character arc overall rather than giving him a "heart of gold" right off the bat.

I enjoyed the CGI improvements to the SE Battle of Yavin, but that clumsily executed scene alone made me go out looking for the original release on DVD instead.

If you don't understand the complete character change that Han shooting first as opposed to second has on him in the first movie alone and where he starts in ANH and ends up in ROTJ, then you probably shouldn't be watching things with characters in them.

I've been wanting to get a blueray player since they came out and this is a good 1st movie I'm thinking.

Eh. While I don't mind the original OT for the most part, I think the improved special effects enhanced it well. A few edits didn't make sense, but frankly, some of the old effects were not that awesome. Matte lines, stiff and jerky stop-motion animation of walkers and such, and all that.

There is a certain archival and sentimental value to having fair copies of the original version of the OT, but honestly I really think the whole kerfluffle about editing them is a bit overblown, apart from edits that affect story or character elements... I have absolutely no problem with them improving the special effects as that was very helpful to make the film look better, IMO.

Honestly speaking I find this whole edition thing puzzling. I've only ever seen SW on TV. And I have no idea what version was being shown when I saw them. I don't even know which versions I have seen so far. They all look the same to me.

Purple wrote:Honestly speaking I find this whole edition thing puzzling. I've only ever seen SW on TV. And I have no idea what version was being shown when I saw them. I don't even know which versions I have seen so far. They all look the same to me.

Depending on how old you are you may only have seen the Special Editions. Those came out.... oh geez. Maybe 96? No, 1997. These were the most extensive changes, IIRC. What they did were largely cleaning up and refining visual FX, but they also added some scenes impossible/too expensive to do with period technology, such as Han talking to Jabba by the Millennium Falcon. They also added some bits and pieces by changing the visual effects of some scenes-- for example, in one part of Darth Vader on Bespin, he walks out to his shuttle on its landing pad. They removed the 'hallway' that he walks through and made it into an open-air walkway. There was some selective editing of certain scenes, such as changing Han and Greedo so that Greedo shot first before Han fried him (complete with clumsily edited-in Han dodging).

Since then the main revisions have been upgrades of format (VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray), generally with accompanying tweaks and refinements of the picture quality. Nothing too extreme.

The big deal about them releasing the unedited original version of the OT is that before Lucasfilm was sold to Disney, Lucas had maintained a policy that the only version of the films would be the most up to date version, so by his lights (he did own the rights to it after all) the Special Editions superseded the original version of the trilogy, which would no longer be available for purchase except on the used market. This is (IIRC) the first time they've released the original version in a couple of decades or so.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Purple wrote:Honestly speaking I find this whole edition thing puzzling. I've only ever seen SW on TV. And I have no idea what version was being shown when I saw them. I don't even know which versions I have seen so far. They all look the same to me.

Depending on how old you are you may only have seen the Special Editions. Those came out.... oh geez. Maybe 96? No, 1997. These were the most extensive changes, IIRC. What they did were largely cleaning up and refining visual FX, but they also added some scenes impossible/too expensive to do with period technology, such as Han talking to Jabba by the Millennium Falcon. They also added some bits and pieces by changing the visual effects of some scenes-- for example, in one part of Darth Vader on Bespin, he walks out to his shuttle on its landing pad. They removed the 'hallway' that he walks through and made it into an open-air walkway. There was some selective editing of certain scenes, such as changing Han and Greedo so that Greedo shot first before Han fried him (complete with clumsily edited-in Han dodging).

Since then the main revisions have been upgrades of format (VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray), generally with accompanying tweaks and refinements of the picture quality. Nothing too extreme.

Yea I definitively did not see any version that does not have Jabba appearing near the Falcon. But I can't say about any other changes. Like for example if I saw two versions with differing stories on who shot first my reaction would be to shrug it off to bad memory on my part.

The big deal about them releasing the unedited original version of the OT is that before Lucasfilm was sold to Disney, Lucas had maintained a policy that the only version of the films would be the most up to date version, so by his lights (he did own the rights to it after all) the Special Editions superseded the original version of the trilogy, which would no longer be available for purchase except on the used market. This is (IIRC) the first time they've released the original version in a couple of decades or so.

Yea but like... who cares? I mean, you basically need a tone of voice to understand what I mean to say. But basically it's the same general story right? So I don't get it. Original version, changed version, this or that it's all the same ain't it?

Purple wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:The big deal about them releasing the unedited original version of the OT is that before Lucasfilm was sold to Disney, Lucas had maintained a policy that the only version of the films would be the most up to date version, so by his lights (he did own the rights to it after all) the Special Editions superseded the original version of the trilogy, which would no longer be available for purchase except on the used market. This is (IIRC) the first time they've released the original version in a couple of decades or so.

Yea but like... who cares? I mean, you basically need a tone of voice to understand what I mean to say. But basically it's the same general story right? So I don't get it. Original version, changed version, this or that it's all the same ain't it?

It's a sentimental/artistic thing to a lot of people. Folks like seeing the exact same version they saw as a kid--this population is getting older, but there's plenty of them around still, plus people who saw the original version on VHS. Other people are retro nuts who like seeing vintage special effects, and Star Wars' were top of the line for the period.

Artistically, there is an argument to be made that it's not really kosher in whatever sense to edit a piece of work once you've released it. If it's obviously unfinished or portions are simply shitty, that's one thing-- I understand there are a number of films that have been since officially re-released with edits that were better received than the original (don't ask me to name them right now though).

Star Wars, however, was a finished trilogy. Apart from a number of small deleted scenes (mainly in the first one), there was nothing really that *needed* to be added or taken away. They were viewed as a complete work in their own right. It's like, for example, taking the Mona Lisa and adding a whole bunch of extra detail to it, and trying to 'restore' it by making it brighter and more dramatic. Is it necessary? Does it actually add anything that wasn't already there? And so forth.

Apart from the fact of the dated special effects, which I feel are an issue that did objectively benefit the film by being improved, the argument is ultimately a matter of subjective aesthetic taste.

Makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.

Bullshit. It's not a matter of artistic taste. The changes were fan service at best and almost none of them make any sense.

Adding Jabba creates a redundant scene where you literally have Han saying the same exact line twice. Then Boba Fett is there and breaks the fucking fourth wall, not to mention stops being an awesome bounty hunter that Vader hires and becomes just a flunky of Jabba that is always in his employ.

Of course you have the awful change of Greedo shooting first, which was not just poorly executed, (It looked so bad that they had to redo it for the next "new" version) but again, it takes Han from a shoot first, only out for himself, hardcase smuggler that begrudgingly befriends the rebels to a standard old hero that just happens to be a smuggler.

The few good changes are the X-Wings and the Falcon and the matte lines throughout.

The other change that make no sense and bugs the shit out of me and literally takes me right out of the movie every time I watch it now, is in Empire when they changed Vader's line leaving Bespin.

I mean, the only scenes that I would actually want to see restored would be Luke returning to Ben's hut to make his new lightsaber and Lando and Han having their apology moment before they leave Tattooine, but of course those aren't there.