StarDestroyer.Net BBS

This is something of a commentary on Duchess' thread about canon ship designs in the current Disney canon. Apparently(I haven't read it) the recent novel Tarkin features interdictor cruisers, implying that the technology still exists even with the changes.

The problem with this is that we see absolutely no indirect evidence in the films of such technology. In fact quite the opposite, we see that the technology presumably doesn't exist. In both ROTJ and ROTS, over both Endor and Coruscant, the Imperial and Republic fleets force their capital ships into extremely close range engagements for the purpose of preventing the opposition from going to hyperspace*. This would be pointless if interedictor cruisers exist. We similarly see nothing to indicate its use in Clone Wars, even in cases in which the Republic or Separatist fleets otherwise have significant resources.

* More accurately in the case of the Empire they were forced into point blank combat by the Rebel fleet, who were desperate to escape the Death Star, but the only reason that they were close enough in the first place is that the Imperial fleet was maneuvering to prevent the Rebel fleet from escaping.

The ROTJ example is incorrect, the Rebel fleet turned away so they didn't smack into the shield, and then engaged the Imperial fleet to buy time for the ground team to disable the shield. And once the DSII opened fire, they closed to point blank range so that the DSII woudl have to limit it's fire and because, as Lando put it "We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star, and we might just take a few of them with us."

So no, a lack of interdictors in this battle is not evidence for them not existing, especially as the DSII itself is supposed to be able to generate a huge gravity well, which is what cause Executor to ram it.

As for the ROTS example, I believe the ICS book mentioned the Seperatist and Republic fleet being trapped under the planetary shields, so again, no interdictors required.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:The ROTJ example is incorrect, the Rebel fleet turned away so they didn't smack into the shield, and then engaged the Imperial fleet to buy time for the ground team to disable the shield. And once the DSII opened fire, they closed to point blank range so that the DSII woudl have to limit it's fire and because, as Lando put it "We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star, and we might just take a few of them with us."

So no, a lack of interdictors in this battle is not evidence for them not existing, especially as the DSII itself is supposed to be able to generate a huge gravity well, which is what cause Executor to ram it.

But the reason the Imperial fleet was there was according to Piet, "We only need to keep them from escaping." If there were ever a time that it would make sense for interdictors to be present that would be it. But there was no concern over that by the Rebel commanders when Ackbar was about to retreat.

As for the ROTS example, I believe the ICS book mentioned the Seperatist and Republic fleet being trapped under the planetary shields, so again, no interdictors required.

The ICS isn't canon anymore. And how would Republic reinforcements arrive if the shield were still up?

For ROTS the battle really didn't need interdictors. Neither side wanted to go anywhere anyway. The Republic ain't going to abandon the capital and the Seppies were kinda busy invading it. Palpatine didn't want the Separatists to leave either so he could have his Dracula vs Jumper fan fight. I doubt Grievous could have left if he wanted to with the addition of more Republic forces physically blocking his path and probably the Seps too. The Invisible Hand was pretty boxed in on all sides.

Once he lost his prey, his ship, his master, and probably a fair bit of pride Grievous was easily able to escape and I doubt the Republic was all that keen on trying to hold him there to continue to raze Coruscant.

If they did need interdictors it could be hand waved away that they were being used to bottle up Sep reinforcements during the Outer Rim sieges mentioned.

For ROTJ, the Rebel fleet was physically blocked from going anywhere by a big ass fleet of starships in front of them (and presumably blocking their escape from up and down) and the Rebels decided to try not to flee anyway. They knew it was then or never to take out the new Death Star.

Joun_Lord wrote:For ROTS the battle really didn't need interdictors. Neither side wanted to go anywhere anyway. The Republic ain't going to abandon the capital and the Seppies were kinda busy invading it. Palpatine didn't want the Separatists to leave either so he could have his Dracula vs Jumper fan fight. I doubt Grievous could have left if he wanted to with the addition of more Republic forces physically blocking his path and probably the Seps too. The Invisible Hand was pretty boxed in on all sides.

Why would Grievous not want to escape. The only reason he attacked Coruscant was to kidnapped Palpatine, once that was done, the logical thing to do would have been to flee. If a foreign power invaded Washington DC and kidnapped the American president, would they hang around as the US Navy and Air Force attempt to box them in?

While Palpatine would obviously be inclined to stay, it would be rather hard for him as Sidious to give a logical reason for this. The Republic fleet would have to help

Once he lost his prey, his ship, his master, and probably a fair bit of pride Grievous was easily able to escape and I doubt the Republic was all that keen on trying to hold him there to continue to raze Coruscant.

Once Palpatine was retrieved why bother preventing it? The Republic objective was to rescue him and push away the Seperatist fleet. After boxing in Grievous' flagship, why would they bother to do anything else?

For ROTJ, the Rebel fleet was physically blocked from going anywhere by a big ass fleet of starships in front of them (and presumably blocking their escape from up and down) and the Rebels decided to try not to flee anyway. They knew it was then or never to take out the new Death Star.

That was my point, that interdictors don't seem to appear in the films with fleets relying on physically boxing in the enemy. While absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if we don't see a useful technology at two of the most historically significant fleet engagements in history it says something about the technology. Especially Endor which was an obvious trap intended to destroy the Rebel fleet. If there was ever a time for the technology, this was it.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Joun_Lord wrote:For ROTS the battle really didn't need interdictors. Neither side wanted to go anywhere anyway. The Republic ain't going to abandon the capital and the Seppies were kinda busy invading it. Palpatine didn't want the Separatists to leave either so he could have his Dracula vs Jumper fan fight. I doubt Grievous could have left if he wanted to with the addition of more Republic forces physically blocking his path and probably the Seps too. The Invisible Hand was pretty boxed in on all sides.

Why would Grievous not want to escape. The only reason he attacked Coruscant was to kidnapped Palpatine, once that was done, the logical thing to do would have been to flee. If a foreign power invaded Washington DC and kidnapped the American president, would they hang around as the US Navy and Air Force attempt to box them in?

While Palpatine would obviously be inclined to stay, it would be rather hard for him as Sidious to give a logical reason for this. The Republic fleet would have to help

It was a full scale invasion that as far as I know was supposed to be the Seps attempt to hurt the Republic after the Republic was stomping their nuts with the Outer Rim Sieges. Just taking the Chancellor wouldn't end the war. Taking the capital, the most protected planet in the Republic, might. Certainly would make people think twice about the worth of Republic protection (which probably couldn't have been that good with the skeleton crew ships and maybe half a clone a planet for protection if they are generous) and certainly disrupt supply lines, hurt morale, and take alot of government apparatus.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Joun_Lord wrote:Once he lost his prey, his ship, his master, and probably a fair bit of pride Grievous was easily able to escape and I doubt the Republic was all that keen on trying to hold him there to continue to raze Coruscant.

Once Palpatine was retrieved why bother preventing it? The Republic objective was to rescue him and push away the Seperatist fleet. After boxing in Grievous' flagship, why would they bother to do anything else?

I said as much that there was no reason to prevent his escape. Beyond trying to take him out then and there him staying over Coruscant could only continue to have bad things happen. One of the most dangerous Separatists both in military genius and martial prowess being let go to put the hurt on the Republic some more is probably not something easy but the Republic probably would rather have him away from the capital.

So even if they had interdictors there they would have shut them down to help Grievous GTFO.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Joun_Lord wrote:For ROTJ, the Rebel fleet was physically blocked from going anywhere by a big ass fleet of starships in front of them (and presumably blocking their escape from up and down) and the Rebels decided to try not to flee anyway. They knew it was then or never to take out the new Death Star.

That was my point, that interdictors don't seem to appear in the films with fleets relying on physically boxing in the enemy. While absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if we don't see a useful technology at two of the most historically significant fleet engagements in history it says something about the technology. Especially Endor which was an obvious trap intended to destroy the Rebel fleet. If there was ever a time for the technology, this was it.

Interdictors only prevent ships from going to hyperspace. You would still need to box them in and kick their teeth in with other ships. The interdictors could have been being used to prevent any escaping ships from the battle itself from actually making it out of system. The fact that the Rebel Scum ships didn't try to run means we never got to see whether or not there was an interdictor field in place.

Its like laying a minefield in a Naval battle to prevent a ship from fleeing. Its stuck in place but still able to fight. You need to have other naval ships pound it to scrap and physically prevent it from destroying the mine field (or the Interdictor) so it can escape.

Joun_Lord wrote: Interdictors only prevent ships from going to hyperspace. You would still need to box them in and kick their teeth in with other ships. The interdictors could have been being used to prevent any escaping ships from the battle itself from actually making it out of system. The fact that the Rebel Scum ships didn't try to run means we never got to see whether or not there was an interdictor field in place.

Its like laying a minefield in a Naval battle to prevent a ship from fleeing. Its stuck in place but still able to fight. You need to have other naval ships pound it to scrap and physically prevent it from destroying the mine field (or the Interdictor) so it can escape.

Have they totally changed the design? I mean, back in the day when I was reading the Rogue Squadron series they were nervous about accidentally taking one on when they were formed and at that point they could still solo a single Star Destroyer of certain classes. Yes, you put them in certain parts of your formation, but saying you oh so totally need other ships because they're useless alone seems...strange. At the least comparing it to a minefield seems a bit, I don't know, deceptive. I know the ship can at least fire back. And move.

Gaidin wrote:Have they totally changed the design? I mean, back in the day when I was reading the Rogue Squadron series they were nervous about accidentally taking one on when they were formed and at that point they could still solo a single Star Destroyer of certain classes. Yes, you put them in certain parts of your formation, but saying you oh so totally need other ships because they're useless alone seems...strange. At the least comparing it to a minefield seems a bit, I don't know, deceptive. I know the ship can at least fire back. And move.

Relative to other capital ships they would have questionably utility in a fleet engagement. This is simply a consequence of the power requirements needed to drop a ship from hyperspace and keep them there. This obviously leaves less energy available for combat.

Against starfighters this is not a problem because starfighters have an almost impossible time against capital ships with a single fighter squadron. Rouge Squadron never actually took on a star destroyer with a single fighter squadron at any point in the series. The closest that the EU had to this was Wraith Squadron and company against the Implacable. That took three fighter squadrons and a corellian corvette and opened with Trojan Horse TIE fighters attacking the bridge and shield projectors.

Joun_Lord wrote:It was a full scale invasion that as far as I know was supposed to be the Seps attempt to hurt the Republic after the Republic was stomping their nuts with the Outer Rim Sieges. Just taking the Chancellor wouldn't end the war. Taking the capital, the most protected planet in the Republic, might. Certainly would make people think twice about the worth of Republic protection (which probably couldn't have been that good with the skeleton crew ships and maybe half a clone a planet for protection if they are generous) and certainly disrupt supply lines, hurt morale, and take alot of government apparatus.

According to the opening scroll it was a raid purely for the purpose of kidnapping Palpatine:

War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.

In a stunning move, the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous, has swept into the Republic capital and kidnapped Chancellor Palpatine, leader of the Galactic Senate.

As the Separatist Droid Army attempts to flee the besieged capital with their valuable hostage, two Jedi Knights lead a desperate mission to rescue the captive Chancellor....

The CIS was trying to flee, not invade the capital. Dooku didn't want the CIS to win, he wanted them to lose as per Palpatine's plans. Even if they wanted to win, landing troops on the capital and kidnapping Palpaitne would have had nearly the same effect with much less risk. Showing that the GAR can't even protect their head of state accomplishes much the same thing as capturing Coruscant with a fraction of the risk. How would one even successfully invade a planet as large as Coruscant with its trillions of inhabitants?

Where are you getting the idea about half a clone per planet? The three million clones are no longer canon either.

Joun_Lord wrote:I said as much that there was no reason to prevent his escape. Beyond trying to take him out then and there him staying over Coruscant could only continue to have bad things happen. One of the most dangerous Separatists both in military genius and martial prowess being let go to put the hurt on the Republic some more is probably not something easy but the Republic probably would rather have him away from the capital.

So even if they had interdictors there they would have shut them down to help Grievous GTFO.

But if they successfully escaped with Palpatine it would have caused the political crumbling of the Republic. Palpatine set himself up as the wise statesman who was the only one who could successfully lead the Republic through these dark times. Given this issue, the GAR had no choice but to save him even at the expense of parts of Coruscant.

And if they wanted the CIS fleet to leave why did the Republic fleet physically block CIS warships?

Joun_Lord wrote:Interdictors only prevent ships from going to hyperspace. You would still need to box them in and kick their teeth in with other ships. The interdictors could have been being used to prevent any escaping ships from the battle itself from actually making it out of system. The fact that the Rebel Scum ships didn't try to run means we never got to see whether or not there was an interdictor field in place.

Its like laying a minefield in a Naval battle to prevent a ship from fleeing. Its stuck in place but still able to fight. You need to have other naval ships pound it to scrap and physically prevent it from destroying the mine field (or the Interdictor) so it can escape.

Piet specifically said that the Imperial fleet's only purpose was to prevent the Rebels from escaping. And when Ackbar was discussing the idea of fleeing, there didn't seem to be a massive concern about interdictors.

As for the comparison to minefields, minefields are not a tactical weapon, they are a strategic weapon. For terrestrial navies they are intended for use against choke points, something that by definition can't exist in space.

Gaidin wrote:

Joun_Lord wrote: Interdictors only prevent ships from going to hyperspace. You would still need to box them in and kick their teeth in with other ships. The interdictors could have been being used to prevent any escaping ships from the battle itself from actually making it out of system. The fact that the Rebel Scum ships didn't try to run means we never got to see whether or not there was an interdictor field in place.

Its like laying a minefield in a Naval battle to prevent a ship from fleeing. Its stuck in place but still able to fight. You need to have other naval ships pound it to scrap and physically prevent it from destroying the mine field (or the Interdictor) so it can escape.

Have they totally changed the design? I mean, back in the day when I was reading the Rogue Squadron series they were nervous about accidentally taking one on when they were formed and at that point they could still solo a single Star Destroyer of certain classes. Yes, you put them in certain parts of your formation, but saying you oh so totally need other ships because they're useless alone seems...strange. At the least comparing it to a minefield seems a bit, I don't know, deceptive. I know the ship can at least fire back. And move.

I think Rogue Squadron might have been nervous because its armaments were geared towards anti-starfighter. No big turbolasers but 20 quadlasers (think like the guns on the Falcon or as used by Mooninites) and 2 squadrons of fighters. Plus the fact they could not bug out to hyperspace means they have to stay and fight rather then doing their usual hit and run tactics that the cowardly Rebel Scum used.

Its comparison to a minefield is the fact it is a relatively unarmed target (compare to its base ship the Vindicator class) and an immobile one (according the Wooki they could not maneuver well or have optimal shields or guns when the generators are powered up, they aren't sitting ducks but pretty close to one) that traps a target but still has to rely on other things to finish the target and for protection from the target.

Interdictor

Vindicator

My point is it's a specialized warship. To spiral it down to something like a munition is downright wrong. Different tools for different tasks. Sure, you don't want them and only them in a fleet engagement, but you can use those things solo for certain things and you damn well know it. Don't try to say that the gravity well is all it has and it needs something attached to its hip to be useful. Different tools for different tasks.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Against starfighters this is not a problem because starfighters have an almost impossible time against capital ships with a single fighter squadron. Rouge Squadron never actually took on a star destroyer with a single fighter squadron at any point in the series. The closest that the EU had to this was Wraith Squadron and company against the Implacable. That took three fighter squadrons and a corellian corvette and opened with Trojan Horse TIE fighters attacking the bridge and shield projectors.

The Rogues took on the VicStar Corrupter and the Interdictor Aggregator at Alderaan in The Bacta War, destroyed the former and drove off the latter with damage. Admittedly they would have been in the shit if Valiant hadn't intervened, but they were still able to knock down the Corrupter's port shields with a squadron salvo, and expected to destroy her with a second such shot to the unshielded hull if the ship hadn't rolled to present undamaged shields. This strongly suggests that a coordinated attack on either bow would be enough to take down a VicStar.

As for the Aggregator, she shunted all power from the gravity well projectors to shields as soon as the Corrupter was crippled, still suffered heavy damage from a single volley, and immediately bugged out, implying that she didn't expect to survive a continued engagement, even with the Rogues only having one salvo left.

That's questionable at best. Antilles thinks that the salvo tactic won't work if the VicStar's captain rolled the ship...which he did. Antilles also expected the VicStar to be able to restore the damaged shields and roll again once the Rogues had fired off their third and final salvo. Additionally Antilles managed to hit the VicStar's bridge, causing the ship to lose control and drift down into the Graveyard. The implication being that a) if Valiant hadn't shown up and b) if the VicStar's bridge hadn't been destroyed, the Rogues and their Twi'lek allies would have been royally screwed.

As for the Interdictor running, her shields were down, her fighters were gone and the Rebels had a War Frigate on hand to engage her. The VicStar was dead by then, she had no choice but to run. She wans't just facing the Rogues, but also a squadron of Twi'lek fighters and something comparable to a Carrack cruiser.