Shield permeability (Brian Young arguement)

[Adam Reynolds]

For anyone who doesn't know, Brian Young(he wrote the turbolaser commentaries on the main site) has a somewhat new website in which he analyzes various sci-fi settings. One of the theories he came up with is that Star Wars shields are semi-permeable, allowing starfighters to engage capital ships by flying under the shieldsafter pushing through at sufficiently slow speeds. While certainly an intriguing theory, it does have some flaws.

Focusing on the films, for the sake of brevity and because as I know them far better than Clone Wars, there are three key examples that back up this theory: the destruction of Executor, the Millennium Falcon's docking on the back of Avenger's bridge tower, and the penetration of the Death Star's outer defenses by Rebel fighters. The main counterexamples from the films are the failure of Naboo starfighters to damage the Trade Federation battleship and that of TIE fighters over Endor failing to do any significant damage to the Rebel fleet.

Let's start with the best example, the shielding of the first Death Star does let fighters through. This wasn't simply a fluke, Dodonna specifically planned on this weakness after an analysis of the Death Star plans. However, the fact that he specifically mentioned “or they would have provided a tighter defense” implies that this is not a common enough weakness that the assembled starfighter pilots would have already known about it. If this were an example indicative of a weakness among all Star Wars shielding, he would have had no need to specify that it would work in this particular case. There is thus nothing to indicate that this flaw is representative.

As for the attack on the exhaust port itself, referring to it as ray shielding specifically was generally assumed to mean that it completely failed to block physical projectiles. This would make sense for an exhaust port that would need to vent physical particles. The attack was hard due to timing the shot to hit the target, not because of any speed limitation for the missiles. We certainly didn't see them change speed. The internal ray shields in the Invisible Hand used to trap Obi-Wan and Anakin might contradict this, but it was generally stated that they would cause serious burns to individuals. This is distinct from theater shields which must have ground contact and thus cannot burn objects touching the ground in the same fashion. We also saw the apparent possibility of burns with the force fields around Theed's reactor in TPM. These also repelled Maul's lightsaber in a manner consistent with ray shields. As to the question of why they didn't simply damage the emitters themselves, the logical assumption is either that the emitters are shielded themselves, or that the energy output from a damaged emitter would have injured them.

Moving on to other film examples we have Executor's destruction at the hands of a trio of A-wings. This is perhaps the best example in favor of the concept of shield permeability, especially now that it appears the movie novelizations have been decanonized.* However the fact that the Rebel fleet had undoubtedly fired upon it before this point means that its shields were hardly at the maximum level. If nothing else we know definitively that a Rebel Nebulon B(medical frigate) was sitting on Executor's trench firing away earlier in the battle. We also see several visible shield flashes from Executor as Ackbar orders the fleet target it.
* This assumption is due to the significant differences between the ROTS novelization and the now canon Clone Wars series. The ROTS novelization was full of references to the pre-ROTS EU that are no longer canon and thus it is presumably no longer canon.

The final film example that seems to support the idea of permeable shielding is that of the Millennium Falcon in ESB landing on the rear tower of ISD Avenger. There are two problems with this example. It is assumed that this disproves the reliance of fighters being backed up by friendly turbolaser fire. While it is true there was no friendly turbolaser fire, the Millennium Falcon was backed up by friendly asteroid impacts. Avenger's shields were hardly at the maximum level of protection after what could have been several days inside an asteroid field. There is also the fact that there is no indication that Avenger's rear shields were up just because the forward shields were. The logical target was the exposed bridge, not the rear of the tower. Thus it was possible the rear shields were down.

The best example of fighters being completely impotent against capital ships comes from The Phantom Menace. If it were possible to fly under shields, why did none of Naboo's pilots ever consider the possibility? Qui-Gon Jinn assumed that the Naboo fighters would never have a chance, that their weapons would never penetrate the shields. If it were possible, however difficult, to fly under them, why would he not bring it up? Furthermore, we see Naboo's lead pilot fly the Queen's transport through the blockade in a course that skims the surface of the nearest Trade Federation battleship at high speed, which implies hull hugging shields. Anakin only penetrated the shield because the ship was actively launching fighters at the same moment he flew through the hanger bay.

A second example that somewhat fits with the failure of Naboo's fighters was the failure of Imperial TIE fighters to have any significant effect against the Rebel fleet over Endor. While Lando's concern about the threat indicates that they have some value, the fact that they did zero noticeable damage is indicative that they weren't very effective. His concern did seem somewhat negated by his confusion that the star destroyers were not attacking. While this was undoubtedly at least partially due to the superior skill of Rebel pilots, especially after considering the smaller and more vulnerable ships in the Rebel fleet, it doesn't bode well for the ability of starfighters to attack capital ships.

There is a final piece of film evidence that is somewhat inconclusive, that of docking bay shields. The example of the shields around Invisible Hand's docking bay seems to support that of the idea that shields are permeable based on speed alone, hence why Anakin failed to notice until being told. The example of Luke leaving the Second Death Star is inconclusive in that the station was in the process of exploding as he left. However the example of the first Death Star is a flaw in the permeability argument. If it were simply a question of flying slow enough, then there would be no reason for the Death Star to drop its outboard shields or magnetic field as mentioned by the Death Star's announcement system.

The underlying assumption that is the lynchpin of this argument is that we know that theater shields are permeable at the point of ground contact. It is thus assumed that starships shields operate on the same principle. The problem is that there is really nothing to truly support this assumption. Theater shields must have this weakness due to touching the ground. There is nothing to indicate that encompassing shields must also have this problem. This is akin to assuming that an aircraft that uses terrain masking to hide from a ground based radar would also be undetected by an airborne radar. While capital ship shields may have the same flaw at the seams at which shields overlap, as shown by the first Death Star, there is nothing to suggest that they must, as in the case of the second.

In terms of the question of how fighters could still launch attacks, I would agree that it can be a question of permeability but that there are two necessary requirements that Brian overlooks: that the attacking vessel has working shields and that the defending vessel is weakened(though the Death Star is the exception, its outer shields are more spread out overall, hence Dodonna's comments about the lack of a “tighter defense”). My idea is that it requires that the seams in a deflector shield, where one shield segment meets another, are the point at which starfighters could potentially penetrate. This fits the similarity to theater shieldsThe point about the attacking fighters requiring shields is backed up by the dialog in ANH as Red Squadron attacked the Death Star. Red Leader gave a specific order to raise deflector shields and “double front,” implying that it was an important part of the process. The idea would be that the fighter shields would in effect fool the captial ship shields into momentarily thinking that they were a part of the same shielding system. This would only work if the

My theory also fits for the Millennium Falcon docking with Avenger as Han had just diverted. Executor's destruction would also be to the same situation, shielded Rebel fighters made it through as the fleet battle wore on and the seams increased. It would also explain why the more weakly shielded(I realize Brian also proved that they had shields) TIEs over Endor failed to penetrate Rebel warships, especially given that they were almost entirely unsupported.This also applies to the Naboo fighters, they failed because they had no support and thus there weren't enough weak points. The docking bay shields of the Invisible Hand would also fit, Obi-Wan's fighter was damaged and thus unable to penetrate by cycling shields while Anakin's did not have that problem. It would also explain why the Death Star had to lower the magnetic field over its docking bay, the Falcon was shut down completely and thus unable to travel through on its own.

This would mean that in a versus context, unless an enemy had shields of the same sort as Star Wars, they likely would be unable to penetrate Star Wars shields. Any thoughts? I have also went through several Clone Wars examples that he used as well and haven't found any significant problems with my theory, though a few cases I would argue aren't actually shield penetration(most notably Malvolence).

[NecronLord]

The internal ray shields in the Invisible Hand used to trap Obi-Wan and Anakin might contradict this, but it was generally stated that they would cause serious burns to individuals. This is distinct from theater shields which must have ground contact and thus cannot burn objects touching the ground in the same fashion.

In point of fact, Dr Saxton’s theory on theatre shields being the justification for vehicles requiring legs is that the legs earth the energies. And that clone trooper armour also earths them. Dr Saxton’s theatre shields do not let unarmoured persons, like the Chancellor, or the two Jedi, step through them.

The best example of fighters being completely impotent against capital ships comes from The Phantom Menace. If it were possible to fly under shields, why did none of Naboo's pilots ever consider the possibility? Qui-Gon Jinn assumed that the Naboo fighters would never have a chance, that their weapons would never penetrate the shields. If it were possible, however difficult, to fly under them, why would he not bring it up? Furthermore, we see Naboo's lead pilot fly the Queen's transport through the blockade in a course that skims the surface of the nearest Trade Federation battleship at high speed, which implies hull hugging shields. Anakin only penetrated the shield because the ship was actively launching fighters at the same moment he flew through the hanger bay.

He must still have flown through the vessel’s combat shields.

A second example that somewhat fits with the failure of Naboo's fighters was the failure of Imperial TIE fighters to have any significant effect against the Rebel fleet over Endor. While Lando's concern about the threat indicates that they have some value, the fact that they did zero noticeable damage is indicative that they weren't very effective. His concern did seem somewhat negated by his confusion that the star destroyers were not attacking. While this was undoubtedly at least partially due to the superior skill of Rebel pilots, especially after considering the smaller and more vulnerable ships in the Rebel fleet, it doesn't bode well for the ability of starfighters to attack capital ships.

The TIEs in question lack missile & torpedo armament. They simply lack the firepower of even the Naboo fighters. Atop that they had plentiful targets in their own class to deal with, which is their designed role, especially the TIE interceptors; do we even know that they were tasked with attacking the rebel capital ships? Needa's orders were to hold the rebel fleet in position so that the Emperor could plink them to enrage Luke.

The underlying assumption that is the lynchpin of this argument is that we know that theater shields are permeable at the point of ground contact. It is thus assumed that starships shields operate on the same principle.

Brian explains his theory in detail, it’s not predicated on Dr Saxton’s writing, we can speculate it might be informed by it, but Brian clearly shows his source material.

There is yet more evidence for his position in rebels, too, such as the Ghost being able to just fly up and land in a Star Destroyer hangar bay in the pilot. Boarding star wars ships is really easy.

The problem is that there is really nothing to truly support this assumption.

Apart from the above examples and the substantial TV evidence you’re not addressing.

This would mean that in a versus context, unless an enemy had shields of the same sort as Star Wars, they likely would be unable to penetrate Star Wars shields. Any thoughts? I have also went through several Clone Wars examples that he used as well and haven't found any significant problems with my theory, though a few cases I would argue aren't actually shield penetration(most notably Malvolence).

And then there’s things like Anakin flying up to Grievous’ destroyer in clone wars, docking with it, and cutting through the hull.

[Adam Reynolds]

In point of fact, Dr Saxton’s theory on theatre shields being the justification for vehicles requiring legs is that the legs earth the energies. And that clone trooper armour also earths them. Dr Saxton’s theatre shields do not let unarmoured persons, like the Chancellor, or the two Jedi, step through them.

But in Clone Wars, which is now canon, we repeatedly see unarmored Jedi harmlessly pass through theater shields on a regular basis. Thus Saxton's ideas cannot possibly be the case, regardless of how reasonable they are.

He must still have flown through the vessel’s combat shields.

Not if the outer shields were also down over the hanger to allow them to escape. How would Anakin have penetrated the outer shields(which requires a slower speed) while in an uncontrollable spin?

The TIEs in question lack missile & torpedo armament. They simply lack the firepower of even the Naboo fighters. Atop that they had plentiful targets in their own class to deal with, which is their designed role, especially the TIE interceptors; do we even know that they were tasked with attacking the rebel capital ships? Needa's orders were to hold the rebel fleet in position so that the Emperor could plink them to enrage Luke.

I hate to nitpick but Needa was rather dead at that point, Piett was in charge of the Imperial fleet at Endor. Jedi starfighters in the Clone Wars also only have gun armaments and they attack capital ships on a regular basis, though in their case they are generally backed up by heavier fighters with torpedoes. Though the Empire also has TIE bombers, couldn't they also be present? We hardly see the whole battle.

Brian explains his theory in detail, it’s not predicated on Dr Saxton’s writing, we can speculate it might be informed by it, but Brian clearly shows his source material.

His theory is based upon Anakin's explanation about droidka(theater) shields. That is the opening of his video. This is later clarified by Dennis Muren's commentary on Gungan shields which makes a similar point. I was saying that just because theater shields have a weakness based on speed and ground contact, doesn't mean that starship must have a similar weakness.

There is yet more evidence for his position in rebels, too, such as the Ghost being able to just fly up and land in a Star Destroyer hangar bay in the pilot. Boarding star wars ships is really easy.

I haven't actually seen much of Rebels. Was the vessel in combat? Could the main shields simply have been down?

Apart from the above examples and the substantial TV evidence you’re not addressing.

Let's go through the Clone Wars examples:

Anakin's fighter attack against Malvolence is an oft used example. The problem with that theory is that if they were already under the shield, why did casualties matter? Without shielding to get in the way even a single proton torpedo could have easily destoyed the Malvolence bridge and Grevious along with it. There would have been no reason to switch the target to the ion canon. Anakin could have had everyone else break off and press the attack alone, just as Luke did against the first Death Star. Plo Koon expected the strike to fail(in an echo of Qui-Gon's skepticism in TPM), as he knew that there was no way they could possibly break through the shields with significant casualties. As for attacking the ion cannon, presumably charging the weapon diverted power from shields. No penetration necessary.

The second main issue is Republic fighters against Separatist frigates(Storm Over Ryloth). Said frigates were outflanked after intending to only face a target in front of them. In general frigates also are much weaker than larger capital ships and thus more vulnerable to fighters. The other example of this is just plain weird(Downfall of a Droid). We see Grevious divert all power to forward shields before being fired upon from behind followed by Anakin firing through the forward bridge widows. It is possible that they redirected shields to the rear to deflect the AT-TE fire before Anakin fired.

And then there’s things like Anakin flying up to Grievous’ destroyer in clone wars, docking with it, and cutting through the hull.

I assume you are referring to the episode Grievous Intrigue? This is one of three notable examples of boarding in combat that Brian cited. The other two are Anakin using AT-TE walkers to transport clones to Cad Bane's frigate(Cargo of Doom) and the use of Separatist boarding craft against Luminara's Venator(Cloak of Darkness).

Cad Bane's frigate was already disabled and thus irrelevant as an example.

Anakin's boarding happened after Obi-Wan had already docked with Grevious's warship and engaged it with the intention of letting Anakin also dock. Given that Obi-Wan did this as a distraction, presumably the had already fired enough to weaken the shields and allow this to happen. Or that the act of docking with Obi-Wan's ship forced Grievous to lower his shields.

The only example that doesn't easily fit my theory is that of Separatist boarding craft against a Venator. Though fitting with my shielding hypothesis, dedicated boarding craft could have a specialized countermeasure for this purpose. The other straightforward option is that the shields were simply down for whatever reason. While this is unlikely considering that they were in combat, it is a possibility.

Do we actually see shield impacts in Clone Wars? It is possible that they actually aren't used that much. Or it's possible that the series isn't actually a very good visual source in the same way as the films. In the above mentioned scene in which Luminara's Venator is attacked by droid starfighters, the only weapons that fire are the heavy turbolasers. We see no evidence of the lighter weapons that the vessel must carry and that were seen firing over Coruscant in ROTS. This issue also occurs in the episode Nightsisters.

[NecronLord]

But in Clone Wars, which is now canon, we repeatedly see unarmored Jedi harmlessly pass through theater shields on a regular basis. Thus Saxton's ideas cannot possibly be the case, regardless of how reasonable they are.

Which is cool, as ICS is no longer any part of the 'canon.' It shouldn't be regarded as having any pertinence to Brian's hypothesis which is based on the canon media only.

Not if the outer shields were also down over the hanger to allow them to escape. How would Anakin have penetrated the outer shields(which requires a slower speed) while in an uncontrollable spin?

Angular momentum and linear momentum are not the same thing

I hate to nitpick but Needa was rather dead at that point, Piett was in charge of the Imperial fleet at Endor. Jedi starfighters in the Clone Wars also only have gun armaments and they attack capital ships on a regular basis, though in their case they are generally backed up by heavier fighters with torpedoes. Though the Empire also has TIE bombers, couldn't they also be present? We hardly see the whole battle.

Your argument that we see that the rebel shields resist TIE fighters is 'we don't see it all, but we know that TIE bombers are ineffective and present because...' what?

His theory is based upon Anakin's explanation about droidka(theater) shields. That is the opening of his video. This is later clarified by Dennis Muren's commentary on Gungan shields which makes a similar point. I was saying that just because theater shields have a weakness based on speed and ground contact, doesn't mean that starship must have a similar weakness.

I haven't actually seen much of Rebels. Was the vessel in combat? Could the main shields simply have been down?

It was not in combat.

Let's go through the Clone Wars examples:

Anakin's fighter attack against Malvolence is an oft used example. The problem with that theory is that if they were already under the shield, why did casualties matter? Without shielding to get in the way even a single proton torpedo could have easily destoyed the Malvolence bridge and Grevious along with it. There would have been no reason to switch the target to the ion canon. Anakin could have had everyone else break off and press the attack alone, just as Luke did against the first Death Star. Plo Koon expected the strike to fail(in an echo of Qui-Gon's skepticism in TPM), as he knew that there was no way they could possibly break through the shields with significant casualties. As for attacking the ion cannon, presumably charging the weapon diverted power from shields. No penetration necessary.

The second main issue is Republic fighters against Separatist frigates(Storm Over Ryloth). Said frigates were outflanked after intending to only face a target in front of them. In general frigates also are much weaker than larger capital ships and thus more vulnerable to fighters. The other example of this is just plain weird(Downfall of a Droid). We see Grevious divert all power to forward shields before being fired upon from behind followed by Anakin firing through the forward bridge widows. It is possible that they redirected shields to the rear to deflect the AT-TE fire before Anakin fired.

And then there’s things like Anakin flying up to Grievous’ destroyer in clone wars, docking with it, and cutting through the hull.

I assume you are referring to the episode Grievous Intrigue? This is one of three notable examples of boarding in combat that Brian cited. The other two are Anakin using AT-TE walkers to transport clones to Cad Bane's frigate(Cargo of Doom) and the use of Separatist boarding craft against Luminara's Venator(Cloak of Darkness).

Cad Bane's frigate was already disabled and thus irrelevant as an example.

Anakin's boarding happened after Obi-Wan had already docked with Grevious's warship and engaged it with the intention of letting Anakin also dock. Given that Obi-Wan did this as a distraction, presumably the had already fired enough to weaken the shields and allow this to happen. Or that the act of docking with Obi-Wan's ship forced Grievous to lower his shields.

The only example that doesn't easily fit my theory is that of Separatist boarding craft against a Venator. Though fitting with my shielding hypothesis, dedicated boarding craft could have a specialized countermeasure for this purpose. The other straightforward option is that the shields were simply down for whatever reason. While this is unlikely considering that they were in combat, it is a possibility.

Do we actually see shield impacts in Clone Wars? It is possible that they actually aren't used that much. Or it's possible that the series isn't actually a very good visual source in the same way as the films. In the above mentioned scene in which Luminara's Venator is attacked by droid starfighters, the only weapons that fire are the heavy turbolasers. We see no evidence of the lighter weapons that the vessel must carry and that were seen firing over Coruscant in ROTS. This issue also occurs in the episode Nightsisters.

Also the animated clone wars is canon. Which features a jedi commander just jumping onto (in armour) a CIS vessel with his troops and cutting their way in.

Let's apply occam's razor:

Brian cites numerous examples of slow objects penetrating shields, and even a canon explanation of this, suggests this means slow objects penetrate most shields.

You cite the same examples, make up offscreen ineffective TIE bombers, talk about 'shield seams' we've never heard of in canon, and describe 'a specialized countermeasure for this purpouse' we've never heard of, then say that some shields stop slow objects (which Brian already says because he posits it to be basically a software setting) and others have seams and others are penetrated by special devices and some can still be flown through.

Which of these has more assumptions unsupported by evidence?

[Rogue 9]

Imperial shielding is hull-hugging, though. Observe the X-wing strafing the Star Destroyer's bridge tower in the background here. (If YouTube's timestamps don't work on your end for some reason, the 4 minute, 37 second mark.) The shield flashes are right against the bridge and the shields fail at the end, producing a small explosion on the hull surface with the last shot.

[Adam Reynolds]

Angular momentum and linear momentum are not the same thing

I should clarily. He was in an uncontrollable high speed dive. There was no indication that he slowed down.

Your argument that we see that the rebel shields resist TIE fighters is 'we don't see it all, but we know that TIE bombers are ineffective and present because...' what?

Conceeded. The performance of TIE fighters at Endor isn't a very good example either way. I suppose I was thinking of references to thermonuclear weapons in the novelization, but that isn't likely canon anymore.

It was not in combat.

So were the primary shields up or down? If it wasn't in combat why would they bother to have the shields up? We didn't see Avenger bother to have its shields up when chasing the Millennium Falcon.

Also the animated clone wars is canon. Which features a jedi commander just jumping onto (in armour) a CIS vessel with his troops and cutting their way in.

No it isn't. Only the 2008 The Clone Wars series and now Rebels is canon. Besides the movies of course.

Brian cites numerous examples of slow objects penetrating shields, and even a canon explanation of this, suggests this means slow objects penetrate most shields.

As I said, it is a canon explanation featuring theater shields that must touch the ground and thus have this weakness. Not ones used by starships. While ANH indicates that it is possible for warships to have this weakness as well, in the right circumstances, there is no indication that this is representative. Dodonna specifically said "or they would have provided a tighter defense" implying that such a flaw is not indicative.

You cite the same examples, make up offscreen ineffective TIE bombers, talk about 'shield seams' we've never heard of in canon, and describe 'a specialized countermeasure for this purpouse' we've never heard of, then say that some shields stop slow objects (which Brian already says because he posits it to be basically a software setting) and others have seams and others are penetrated by special devices and some can still be flown through.

I wasn't saying that some have seams in the coverage, I was saying that they all do. We see numerous references(CW Nightsisters, Executor's bridge deflector shield going down) to shield generations for specific sections of vessels, thus there must be a point at which those shields interact. That would be a logical weakness, thus that would be the best point that a fighter would be able to penetrate. Given that we know they can adjust their shield geometry this wouldn't be much of a flaw against incoming turbolaser fire, but it could be one against starfighters that are able to attack from any possible angle at extremely close range. And it could allow starfighters to penetrate under the right circumstances, but it wouldn't necessarily be useful for attacking unaided.

My point with the Clone Wars series is that it is hardly consistent in that we rarely see shield impacts. In the case of Separatist boarding craft they would presumably have some specialized ability to penetrate shields under the right circumstances, which is fitting my theory of pushing through shield seams by using the attacking craft's own deflector shields. We see no instance of known unshielded craft accomplishing this. Anakin's trick with walkers relied on the shields being down.

Imperial shielding is hull-hugging, though. Observe the X-wing strafing the Star Destroyer's bridge tower in the background here. (If YouTube's timestamps don't work on your end for some reason, the 4 minute, 37 second mark.) The shield flashes are right against the bridge and the shields fail at the end, producing a small explosion on the hull surface with the last shot.

Brian's argument is that the shield flashes are too inconsistent to be significantly indicative as to whether shields are hull hugging or not. I would agree that it is a problem with the theory of shield penetration by fighters against capital ships. But we do see cases in which it presumably occurs to some degree, the Millennium Falcon landing on Avenger and the destruction of Executor.

As a side note I'm surprised that clip is still on youtube.

[NecronLord]

His trick with the walkers required it.



This one, less so, and in fact, it took place during a battle.

That and the 2d clone wars incidence which is now apparently non-canon (pooh, that sucks) is the one that really sells the idea to me. They then cut their way into the hull.

[Adam Reynolds]

His trick with the walkers required it.

I thought the shields were down already. Hadn't they already disabled the hyperdrive?

This one, less so, and in fact, it took place during a battle.

That scene was rather awesome. Why couldn't Anakin have pulled that trick in the movies? Anyway the impression I had was that it was a trap. I had thought that Grievous had already docked with Obi-Wan's ship. Given that I now see he hadn't perhaps this example doesn't fit my concept as well.

That and the 2d clone wars incidence which is now apparently non-canon (pooh, that sucks) is the one that really sells the idea to me. They then cut their way into the hull.

In a way it is too bad as the two series actually fit together well plotwise. Though I preferred the depiction of Labyrinth of Evil in terms of why Grievous attacked Corucsant, it was to distract the Jedi from going after Palpatine. Without that there is no good reason for the attack from Sidious' perspective.