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I thought of this on the way home, and I couldn't find any reference on here about a similar theory (If I missed it, sorry). I believe that the Jedi not only started the Clone Wars but were doing so in an official capacity as agents of the Republic.

The trail of events begins in The Phantom Menace, when we see Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan Kenobi serving in an official capacity as diplomats on behalf of the Republic. Not third party intermediaries, but full fledged representatives with the authority to, at the very least, negotiate and send agreements back to the Senate for approval. The Nemoidians don't even react with surprise that Jedi are acting in this role, merely that they're there. This indicates that Jedi taking on the role of official representatives isn't new, just limited due to their numbers.

Moving on the Kimino cloning facilities, they received an order for millions of clones on behalf of a Jedi acting as a representative of the Senate. Again, no question that the Jedi were acting as representatives because they show up, pay, then erase all records. Sure that might of been Tyranus, but no one questioned it. No one said, "Hey, maybe this might be something illegal and should be brought before the Senate". So again, the Jedi are acting in an official capacity to alter Republic domestic policy.

Fast forward to the events of The Clone Wars, when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme were captured by the Geonosians in one of their factories after spying on a meeting to break away from the Republic. Not invade, break away. No official declarations had been made, and it has been shown already that corporations possessing armed forces isn't illegal, at least under Republic law. So having been caught illegally spying, Obi-Wan was sentenced to death, and would have been were it not for the intervention of the Jedi. Who arrived in mass, hidden among the civilians, before engaging the Seperatists.

The battle then truly gets underway when, after having attacked first, the Jedi are nearly about to be slaughtered when the clone army (the same one ordered by the Jedi Order) swoop in and begin attacking. As the battle is raging, several ships start trying to take off, clearly fleeing the battle while battle droids defend them. They even lovingly show clone artillery bringing down a battleship core and destroying it when the ship was clearly fleeing.

I think it's clear that even with the Jedi being manipulated, they were in a position to be manipulated long before Palpatine came into power, and they clearly started the Clone Wars themselves by openly attacking the Seperatists on Geonosis.

IIRC, Dooku mentions that the attack by the Republic was a betrayal. If taken literally, this means that while separating from the Republic might lead to armed conflict (hence the droid army), they never expected the Republic to launch what was essentially an unprovoked sneak attack.

Borgholio wrote:IIRC, Dooku mentions that the attack by the Republic was a betrayal. If taken literally, this means that while separating from the Republic might lead to armed conflict (hence the droid army), they never expected the Republic to launch what was essentially an unprovoked sneak attack.

He actually said treachery. And the comment was about the fact that the Republic apparently created an army without anyone knowing(though he obviously did, as he in fact created it).

Baffalo wrote:I think it's clear that even with the Jedi being manipulated, they were in a position to be manipulated long before Palpatine came into power, and they clearly started the Clone Wars themselves by openly attacking the Seperatists on Geonosis.

That depends on whether or not the CIS had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Jedi to arrest them. When they then attempted to kill the Jedi, it would be an act of war.

I really don't understand this meme to try to warp the Republic and Jedi into the bad guys. The Clone Wars started because a Sith Lord ran both sides of it, manipulating the Republic, the Jedi, the corporations into forming a separatist movement, and his little pawn Dooku to run it.

The biggest thing, though, that you hit on is that you seem shocked that the Jedi were agents of the Republic. This shouldn't be odd, in so much as it was established in the crawl in TPM, and pretty much heavily implied from ANH that the Jedi acted and fought on behalf of the Republic.

Knife wrote: The biggest thing, though, that you hit on is that you seem shocked that the Jedi were agents of the Republic. This shouldn't be odd, in so much as it was established in the crawl in TPM, and pretty much heavily implied from ANH that the Jedi acted and fought on behalf of the Republic.

Several people in the other Jedi thread seemed to not have this belief for some reason.

EDIT: I should clarify that I meant about the implication from ANH.

It's a EU thing, which is dead. Since I'm pretty much a movie purist, it doesn't surprise me.

Baffalo wrote: Moving on the Kimino cloning facilities, they received an order for millions of clones on behalf of a Jedi acting as a representative of the Senate. Again, no question that the Jedi were acting as representatives because they show up, pay, then erase all records. Sure that might of been Tyranus, but no one questioned it. No one said, "Hey, maybe this might be something illegal and should be brought before the Senate". So again, the Jedi are acting in an official capacity to alter Republic domestic policy.

At least some of the Kamino leadership knew about order 66 in the Clone War series and had cooperated to put biological modifications into the clones to ensure they would carry it out. They may or may not have used the role of the Jedi as domestic political cover, but the power makers HAD to know something about the Sith plot and the ultimate goal to destroy the Jedi! And remember Kamino was ERASED from the Jedi archives. This is only plausible or useful if Kamino was an already isolated system, and intended to remain isolated, probably for some deep seated historical reason we know nothing about in the new canon (no idea on old EU canon). One way or another they had to be in an plot they knew was not in the interest of the Republic or the Jedi. They may not have known all the details, or that they were outright working for the Sith, but that's kind of like buying a TV off the back of a truck in the inner city as a defense.

Now the fact that the Jedi still used this army, and that they kept using it even after they knew about the chips, knew one going defective could result in murder, and knew Dooku created the whole thing, well that's why I kind of hate the Clone Wars series final season. It took the Jedi from being fools to being utterly mind bogglingly idiots to the point that perhaps the only real conclusion could be that the dark side didn't just cloud the ability of the Jedi to use the force. It actually was physically making each and every one of them really really stupid. A sort of outright brain jammer.

I see no way the unfinished seasons of the Clone Wars could possibly solve this problem of utter stupid either. It'd only have gotten worse.

Fast forward to the events of The Clone Wars, when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme were captured by the Geonosians in one of their factories after spying on a meeting to break away from the Republic. Not invade, break away. No official declarations had been made, and it has been shown already that corporations possessing armed forces isn't illegal, at least under Republic law.

Yeah the Trade Federation military was apparently legal; but the Trade Federation also had a special trade franchise from the Republic. They appear to have had special rights as a result; just as the Banking Clan ran a giant bank that was supposed to be neutral in the war, even when the Banking Clan itself was fighting as part of it! So we can't assume that the Geonosians ect... building a large military and joining it with other factions actually was legal. It may or may not have been.

Fast forward to the events of The Clone Wars, when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme were captured by the Geonosians in one of their factories after spying on a meeting to break away from the Republic. Not invade, break away. No official declarations had been made, and it has been shown already that corporations possessing armed forces isn't illegal, at least under Republic law. So having been caught illegally spying, Obi-Wan was sentenced to death, and would have been were it not for the intervention of the Jedi. Who arrived in mass, hidden among the civilians, before engaging the Seperatists.

Your forgetting the fact that the Geonosians were also sheltering and directly working with a bounty hunter wanted for murder, whom takes part in capturing the hero's. That more then slightly undermines your intent to label the actions of the Jedi as illegal. I'm not a big Jedi fan either but your off base here.

The entire clone wars was a result of Palpatine taking advantage of a growing trend among Outer Rim and non-Core World populations, their unrest against unjust and corrupt laws. Palpatine orchestrated the inflammation of these movements. He was the architect of the conflict. Any idea that the Jedi might have been responsible is foolish. If anything, they are simply a victim of their own self belief.

If the Separatists hadn't been so intent on executing two Jedi and a senator, the Republic may not have had casus belli to launch a full scale attack on Geonosis. Then again, that's probably what the Sith wanted all along.

Galvatron wrote:If the Separatists hadn't been so intent on executing two Jedi and a senator, the Republic may not have had casus belli to launch a full scale attack on Geonosis. Then again, that's probably what the Sith wanted all along.

The thought occurs, did the Jedi know of the planned execution when they got Jar-Jar (grrr) to propose Emergency Powers and left to gather the Clone Army for their assault?

Adamskywalker007 wrote: That depends on whether or not the CIS had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Jedi to arrest them. When they then attempted to kill the Jedi, it would be an act of war.

This is objectively not true. MANY parts of the Republic are shown to have their own in house military forces in many forms of media from the Trade Federation to the Hapians to Kuat and probably most notably Anaxes.

In this regard the Republic was more like the Space UN. You joined and there were certain prerogatives that were enforced galaxy wide but for the most part you ran as your member state as you saw fit, which can include waging war against other members if it doesn't interfere with Republic prerogatives (as TPM shows us). This also explains all the monarchies we see at the member level. Just because the galactic government was democratic doesn't mean its members have to be.

Sea Skimmer wrote: At least some of the Kamino leadership knew about order 66 in the Clone War series and had cooperated to put biological modifications into the clones to ensure they would carry it out. They may or may not have used the role of the Jedi as domestic political cover, but the power makers HAD to know something about the Sith plot and the ultimate goal to destroy the Jedi! And remember Kamino was ERASED from the Jedi archives. This is only plausible or useful if Kamino was an already isolated system, and intended to remain isolated, probably for some deep seated historical reason we know nothing about in the new canon (no idea on old EU canon). One way or another they had to be in an plot they knew was not in the interest of the Republic or the Jedi. They may not have known all the details, or that they were outright working for the Sith, but that's kind of like buying a TV off the back of a truck in the inner city as a defense.

Just based on AOTC and ROTS, it could make sense reasonably well. When Obi-Wan first visited the planet he saw no sign of deception, which would have also been reinforced by Yoda's similar perceptions*. The Jedi would have seen the absolute loyalty of clones as a good thing. And through the three years of the Clone Wars it was. Unfortunately there is a problem. Clones are loyal to whoever gives the orders, not the Jedi Order.

In ROTS, after the CIS attack on Coruscant, Palpatine was granted the authority as supreme commander of the GAR, rather than the Jedi. Thus the clones would follow whatever order he gave in that context, even one to kill their Jedi commanders. That then gives you Order 66.

Had such an order originally been given in a different context, by the Jedi, it would have made sense. A variation on that order was used by Mace Windu in Shatterpoint, though it wasn't called Order 66. It could also mean kill/arrest your commander rather than specifically Jedi, in the event that a non-Jedi commander turned on the Republic. It just turned out to be the case that all of those commanders whose troops received the order happened to be Jedi.

* Even though their abilities to sense things like this were limited, Yoda was still somewhat able to see. At least well enough for something like this.

Now the fact that the Jedi still used this army, and that they kept using it even after they knew about the chips, knew one going defective could result in murder, and knew Dooku created the whole thing, well that's why I kind of hate the Clone Wars series final season. It took the Jedi from being fools to being utterly mind bogglingly idiots to the point that perhaps the only real conclusion could be that the dark side didn't just cloud the ability of the Jedi to use the force. It actually was physically making each and every one of them really really stupid. A sort of outright brain jammer.

I see no way the unfinished seasons of the Clone Wars could possibly solve this problem of utter stupid either. It'd only have gotten worse.

I always thought that was awful. I think the problem was that the series went too far in trying to humanize the clones and thus then needed a reason to justify Order 66 in that context. I felt they should have had the clones be absolutely loyal to their orders regardless of the context or the cost. It would have caused them to feel subtly off. I always felt that was the tragedy of clones.

As for their depiction of Jedi, Clone Wars Jedi always felt weaker to me than they did in the films. And they also seemed much dumber, especially Obi-Wan.

Yeah the Trade Federation military was apparently legal; but the Trade Federation also had a special trade franchise from the Republic. They appear to have had special rights as a result; just as the Banking Clan ran a giant bank that was supposed to be neutral in the war, even when the Banking Clan itself was fighting as part of it! So we can't assume that the Geonosians ect... building a large military and joining it with other factions actually was legal. It may or may not have been.

I believe in Clone Wars the Trade Federation representative(same one from TPM) claimed that Gunray was an extremist who did not represent the TF as a whole.

Patroklos wrote: This is objectively not true. MANY parts of the Republic are shown to have their own in house military forces in many forms of media from the Trade Federation to the Hapians to Kuat and probably most notably Anaxes.

But those miltiaries were severely restricted according to the old EU. Kuat's warships had only short range hyperdrives to prevent them from striking outside outside Kuat. The Acclamator class was the first major warship to have true interstellar range in generations. And Trade Federation warships were restricted in terms of their weapons loadout in the opposite respect(until they joined the CIS of course). And whatever land armies those states possessed were also presumably limited in their ability to project power over a distance, unlike the CIS droid armies and GAR.

With the new canon there is nothing to indicate anything beyond local defense forces is legal. We never see serious local military forces with the ability to project power on their own in Clone Wars(unless I missed something). All of the transports used come from the Republic or CIS. And we even see clone troopers operating on behalf of the interests of a member world(in Trespass). And as for the Trade Federation, they seemed to have a somewhat unique position as a major merchant power.

In this regard the Republic was more like the Space UN. You joined and there were certain prerogatives that were enforced galaxy wide but for the most part you ran as your member state as you saw fit, which can include waging war against other members if it doesn't interfere with Republic prerogatives (as TPM shows us). This also explains all the monarchies we see at the member level. Just because the galactic government was democratic doesn't mean its members have to be.

What monarchies? They all appear to be democracies. Padme may have been called a queen but she was elected. And the Trade Federation was breaking the law by invading Naboo. Hence the reason their Representative demanded proof rather than claiming a legal basis. This was also the reason they were desperate for a treaty to ratify their occupation rather than being satisfied with a military occupation.

The Jedi were peacekeepers who launched a mission to rescue one of their own who was captured (presumably illegal) by the separatists. While they came in with sabres drawn (not unreasonable under the circumstances), they did not attack first from what I recall of the film. Instead, the droid army opened fire on them and they defended themselves. The all-out clone attack on Geonosis was only launched after that. The separatists started the war (although Palpatine/Sideous manipulated both sides to bring about that result).

Yup they ignite sabers, but don't kill anyone. This is after the last communication with Obi-wan was an image of him being driven away from his ship by gunfire from a Droideka, after he reported tracking a bounty hunter they were seeking for a murder-assassination plot to the planet. So as far as the Jedi were concerned the first shot was already fired; and yet they still left the chance open for negotiation.

If the Jedi were some random militia that might still not be so reasonable, but the fact is they clearly had a legal mandate from the Republic to uphold the peace. And they had real, verifiable, magic freaking powers to help with that.

Wasn't it Dooku or someone else pretending to be "Sypho Dias" who ordered the construction of the clone army?

And the Nemoidians *did* express surprise when the protocol droid said it believed the diplomats sent by the republic were Jedi - in fact, if not for Sidius' verbal lashing, they would have basically given up at that point.

Sidius was the main orchestrater of the separatists in the first place - Dooku was one of his apprentices, (but Dooku didn't appear to know Sidius was Palpatine - though he probably realized it when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him).


It still baffles me that the Jedi were willing to immediately work with the clones and that they made no effort to review their training/programming.

Desperation. The Jedi were not up to the task of fighting a war on their own. This is clearly spelled out in Attack of the Clones.

biostem wrote:It still baffles me that the Jedi were willing to immediately work with the clones and that they made no effort to review their training/programming.

Besides the answer that they were desperate for warm bodies to throw at the Seps, chances are they probably did review their training and decided it wasn't such a big worry. In the old canon IIRC there was an Order 65 which basically gave the same command except directed at the Supreme Chancellor. If you want to have every contingency planned for, then the possibility of rogue Jedi on the loose is something which you might want to account for by giving a way to countermand the Clones' bred-in loyalty to those same Jedi.

I'm sure America still has plans in some dusty corner of the Pentagon for the possibility of invading Canada at a moment's notice, even though the chance of that is nonexistent (at least, until the Canadians run out of maple syrup and bad beer and suddenly become belligerent). Of course the Jedi never imagined that the Supreme Chancellor was actually their ancient hated enemy and that he would send Order 66 to every Clone commander in the phone book, but that was a failing of the dark side clouding their vision and their own hubris.

I was thinking about this issue and am really thinking it makes the most sense if order 66 was a general one given to kill or arrest their current commander, regardless of who they are. Initially, as the Jedi were in command, they thought nothing of it. By the time Palpatine was fully in power, they were too caught up in everything that was occuring to consider the possibility.

Another problem is shown by Obi Wan in AOTC when he was lecturing Anakin on politicians. He never really considered the possibility that one could be a threat.

biostem wrote:Wasn't it Dooku or someone else pretending to be "Sypho Dias" who ordered the construction of the clone army?

Sifo-Dyas was actually a real Jedi who Dooku manipulated into ordering the clone army. He was then eliminated, put into stasis, and his blood used to revive Grievous.

...yeah, weird moment in the EU right there.

Baffalo wrote:I thought of this on the way home, and I couldn't find any reference on here about a similar theory (If I missed it, sorry). I believe that the Jedi not only started the Clone Wars but were doing so in an official capacity as agents of the Republic.

this a semi-in-universe 'Truther' fanfic? Or are you serious?

On the latter we don't know how long before TPM Darth Sidious was manipulating the Republic government, it's hard to parse what was the result of his manipulations and what was genuine Republic intrigue

The trail of events begins in The Phantom Menace, when we see Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan Kenobi serving in an official capacity as diplomats on behalf of the Republic. Not third party intermediaries, but full fledged representatives with the authority to, at the very least, negotiate and send agreements back to the Senate for approval. The Nemoidians don't even react with surprise that Jedi are acting in this role, merely that they're there. This indicates that Jedi taking on the role of official representatives isn't new, just limited due to their numbers.

That's their job, The Republic doesn't have the same lines between church and state as we do, in their culture the Catholic Church serves the same role as the UN...and Texas Rangers...and the Pentagon.

That likely was an influence on people like Tarkin, the resentment that the "church" managed the military, a role that in TCW Tarkin maintained the Jedi were lackluster in.

Moving on the Kimino cloning facilities, they received an order for millions of clones on behalf of a Jedi acting as a representative of the Senate. Again, no question that the Jedi were acting as representatives because they show up, pay, then erase all records. Sure that might of been Tyranus, but no one questioned it. No one said, "Hey, maybe this might be something illegal and should be brought before the Senate". So again, the Jedi are acting in an official capacity to alter Republic domestic policy.

In the "lost missions" for TCW (on netflix and blu-ray, canon) it's revealed the Kaminoans were "in" on Sidious'/Tyrannis' plans from the beginning, directly consulting with them behind the Jedi's back and doing their best to coverup a malfunctioning 'Order 66 Chip'

So in Attack of the Clones they were lying their asses off to Obi-Wan. The fact that Fett said Tyrannis hired him, not Sifo Dyas, was a hint. We don't know at what point Dooku offed Dyas, whether he manipulated Dyas into scheduling the order or just cut him down to steal his name.

Fast forward to the events of The Clone Wars, when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme were captured by the Geonosians in one of their factories after spying on a meeting to break away from the Republic. Not invade, break away. No official declarations had been made, and it has been shown already that corporations possessing armed forces isn't illegal, at least under Republic law. So having been caught illegally spying, Obi-Wan was sentenced to death, and would have been were it not for the intervention of the Jedi. Who arrived in mass, hidden among the civilians, before engaging the Seperatists.

The Republic like the US doesn't take too kindly to secession, the bloc was always seen as an affront to the power of the Republic, the Jedi's concern was the massive arms buildup by the Confederacy (yep, Lucas has a very vivid imagination) and the "threat to peace" that such a buildup tends to entail.

The battle then truly gets underway when, after having attacked first, the Jedi are nearly about to be slaughtered when the clone army (the same one ordered by the Jedi Order) swoop in and begin attacking. As the battle is raging, several ships start trying to take off, clearly fleeing the battle while battle droids defend them. They even lovingly show clone artillery bringing down a battleship core and destroying it when the ship was clearly fleeing.

I'm thinking the initial objective was just to rescue the prisioners, things then got out of hand fast. The Core ship, who say's it was fleeing? The Sphere is a component of a larger ship, they link up and they could challenge Orbital Supremacy.

I think it's clear that even with the Jedi being manipulated, they were in a position to be manipulated long before Palpatine came into power, and they clearly started the Clone Wars themselves by openly attacking the Seperatists on Geonosis.

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I think you're over thinking it a bit, but no doubt in the Empire there are/were many who shared your thought process.

After all how did Palpatine finish off his plan? He framed the Jedi for an attempted coup, the Order was forced into corner, the only way they could "win' would be to install an Oligarchical Theocracy. All the Emperor needed was for the attempt to arrest him, edit the holorecorders and boom. Bonus points would be any recordings from the Temple records the 501st claimed, the Jedi had concerns over the Senate corruption, and if memory serves Yoda and Windu briefly discussed suspending the Senate to root out the Sith Lord's corruption.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:I was thinking about this issue and am really thinking it makes the most sense if order 66 was a general one given to kill or arrest their current commander, regardless of who they are. Initially, as the Jedi were in command, they thought nothing of it. By the time Palpatine was fully in power, they were too caught up in everything that was occuring to consider the possibility.

Another problem is shown by Obi Wan in AOTC when he was lecturing Anakin on politicians. He never really considered the possibility that one could be a threat.

If Order 66 allowed for the arrest of their commanding general, I doubt we'd have seen so many clones employ lethal force without hesitation. If it did, we'd have seen more attempts at subduing the Jedi, as in the case of Pong Krell in TCW.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Borgholio wrote:IIRC, Dooku mentions that the attack by the Republic was a betrayal. If taken literally, this means that while separating from the Republic might lead to armed conflict (hence the droid army), they never expected the Republic to launch what was essentially an unprovoked sneak attack.

He actually said treachery. And the comment was about the fact that the Republic apparently created an army without anyone knowing(though he obviously did, as he in fact created it).

Baffalo wrote:I think it's clear that even with the Jedi being manipulated, they were in a position to be manipulated long before Palpatine came into power, and they clearly started the Clone Wars themselves by openly attacking the Seperatists on Geonosis.

That depends on whether or not the CIS had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Jedi to arrest them. When they then attempted to kill the Jedi, it would be an act of war.

"That depends on whether or not the CSA had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Federals to arrest them. When they then attempted to Evict the federals from their sovereign territory, it would be an act of war." FTFY

Abacus wrote:The entire clone wars was a result of Palpatine taking advantage of a growing trend among Outer Rim and non-Core World populations, their unrest against unjust and corrupt laws.

Wasn't it stated somewhere, or heavily implied at least, that this unrest was a result of the long game manipulations of the sith that had gone on for a very long time? I mean you have a system "The Republic" that had stood for a thousand years successfully and yet only in the last few decades did internal turmoil caused by badly written laws cause enough hatred to entice some factions to withdraw.

cmdrjones wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Borgholio wrote:IIRC, Dooku mentions that the attack by the Republic was a betrayal. If taken literally, this means that while separating from the Republic might lead to armed conflict (hence the droid army), they never expected the Republic to launch what was essentially an unprovoked sneak attack.

He actually said treachery. And the comment was about the fact that the Republic apparently created an army without anyone knowing(though he obviously did, as he in fact created it).

Baffalo wrote:I think it's clear that even with the Jedi being manipulated, they were in a position to be manipulated long before Palpatine came into power, and they clearly started the Clone Wars themselves by openly attacking the Seperatists on Geonosis.

That depends on whether or not the CIS had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Jedi to arrest them. When they then attempted to kill the Jedi, it would be an act of war.

"That depends on whether or not the CSA had a legal basis to secede. If they did not, creating an army was an illegal act and thus there would be grounds for the Federals to arrest them. When they then attempted to Evict the federals from their sovereign territory, it would be an act of war." FTFY

Well, yeah, that doesn't change a damned thing.