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Any information or speculation to the scale of the clone wars? It would be interesting to know how many planets actually saw invasion or a planetary war. Could the galactic clone wars have been thought with only millions of clones and thousands of ships?

Vance wrote:Any information or speculation to the scale of the clone wars? It would be interesting to know how many planets actually saw invasion or a planetary war. Could the galactic clone wars have been thought with only millions of clones and thousands of ships?

Tens of thousands of ships, maybe. Millions of clones, not a chance. We know that the CIS presumably at least numbered in the thousands of systems given that Dooku referenced ten thousand more systems joining their cause. Add to this the fact that the CIS can easily hit Republic worlds due to their use of easily mass produced battle droids, and you would have a need for a minimum of hundreds of millions if not billions of clones. In any case, Star Wars is usually best when the numbers are left somewhat vague. Direct references to scale are usually a net negative.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Vance wrote:Any information or speculation to the scale of the clone wars? It would be interesting to know how many planets actually saw invasion or a planetary war. Could the galactic clone wars have been thought with only millions of clones and thousands of ships?

Tens of thousands of ships, maybe. Millions of clones, not a chance. We know that the CIS presumably at least numbered in the thousands of systems given that Dooku referenced ten thousand more systems joining their cause. Add to this the fact that the CIS can easily hit Republic worlds due to their use of easily mass produced battle droids, and you would have a need for a minimum of hundreds of millions if not billions of clones. In any case, Star Wars is usually best when the numbers are left somewhat vague. Direct references to scale are usually a net negative.

Because those producing the canon material have no sense of scale (save a few notable exceptions, but those left a few years ago).

Keep in mind that the Clones were not the only Republic forces. There would have also been tons of local security forces, and of course the Jedi. Just about every inhabited world probably had its own garrison.

Edit: Examples include Naboo security, the Gungans' army, the Wookie forces, and so on.

Planetary garrisons would probably have only been strong enough to *secure* a system, though, not necessarily defending it fully. There would certainly have been some exceptions, and no doubt once the Clone Wars kicked in they started recruiting heavily. It's also quite probable that the naval forces were staffed by non-clones as well, as they can't have produced enough clones for the army *and* the navy! (starfighter pilots aside)

I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

I also wonder where did they make the fleets. Did Kamino produced everything or just the clones and their gear?

Zixinus wrote:I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

I also wonder where did they make the fleets. Did Kamino produced everything or just the clones and their gear?

The ships? Acclamators were built by Rothana with design assistance from Kuat. Venators, Kuat. Victories, Rendilli and Kuat. Assorted other companies would have supplied whoever wanted to buy their designs-- Corellian Engineering, Rendilli StarDrive, Sienar Fleet Systems, and so forth.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Zixinus wrote:I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

I also wonder where did they make the fleets. Did Kamino produced everything or just the clones and their gear?

The ships? Acclamators were built by Rothana with design assistance from Kuat. Venators, Kuat. Victories, Rendilli and Kuat. Assorted other companies would have supplied whoever wanted to buy their designs-- Corellian Engineering, Rendilli StarDrive, Sienar Fleet Systems, and so forth.

As "Rothana" came directly from George Lucas, that must surely still be regarded as canon?

Mange wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:

Zixinus wrote:I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

I also wonder where did they make the fleets. Did Kamino produced everything or just the clones and their gear?

The ships? Acclamators were built by Rothana with design assistance from Kuat. Venators, Kuat. Victories, Rendilli and Kuat. Assorted other companies would have supplied whoever wanted to buy their designs-- Corellian Engineering, Rendilli StarDrive, Sienar Fleet Systems, and so forth.

As "Rothana" came directly from George Lucas, that must surely still be regarded as canon?

Beats me. It probably says in the new Ultimate Star Wars book, which IIRC is definitely canon.

Zixinus wrote:I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

I also wonder where did they make the fleets. Did Kamino produced everything or just the clones and their gear?

A lot of the officers were Jedi, of course, though a non-Jedi, non-Clone officer is not unheard of. There was at least one who was a recurring character in The Clone Wars as I recall.

Edit: As to where they got them from... probably recruited them from local armies/security forces/militias.

The Romulan Republic wrote: Edit: As to where they got them from... probably recruited them from local armies/security forces/militias.

Or the Republic Navy itself. Remember that we did see dedicated naval officers that flew Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to Naboo.

I don't recall any mention of a Republic Navy in The Phantom Menace, though its been a long time since I saw it.

Did the Republic even have one? They only talk about creating an army in Attack of the Clones, though that suggests that they already had a navy.

The Romulan Republic wrote:I don't recall any mention of a Republic Navy in The Phantom Menace, though its been a long time since I saw it.

Did the Republic even have one? They only talk about creating an army in Attack of the Clones, though that suggests that they already had a navy.

It's not mentioned directly but those blue uniformed officers that were only the ship that brought the jedi were said to be Republic navy is secondary sources and Trade Federation was conserned about having their occupation seem "legal" which suggests Republic had some form of enforcing its will on members other then a senatorial disaproval.

The Jedi are another obvious one.

Plus I'm sure their are all sorts of legal avenues. And The Clone Wars showed droid police on Coruscant as I recall.

Plus a business is probably going to worry about PR somewhat.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
A lot of the officers were Jedi, of course, though a non-Jedi, non-Clone officer is not unheard of. There was at least one who was a recurring character in The Clone Wars as I recall.

Also Tarkin, he was a (Naval) Captain in TCW when rescued from a Separatist prison by Anakin and Obi-wan, and he represented the Republic military as a prosecutor during Asoka's trial for treason.

Edit: As to where they got them from... probably recruited them from local armies/security forces/militias.

Likely also cultural elite, in ages past on Earth an aristocrat could ask for an officers rank and a battalion to command, no experience required, no questions asked.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if a few Republic officers were just wealthy and pulled off a George Washington bluff.

Vaguely IIRC, in older canon the Republic Navy was something of an intergalactic security patrol/FBI type organization? Sort of 'the Feds'. Could be totally off base on that though.

Elheru Aran wrote:It's also quite probable that the naval forces were staffed by non-clones as well, as they can't have produced enough clones for the army *and* the navy! (starfighter pilots aside)

Zixinus wrote:I recall that many of the officers and captains on the ship were not clones. They must have recruited them from somewhere.

Pretty much all of the Navy crew in TCW were clones, and even quite a few of the ship Captains as well. Although the handful of Republic Admirals we saw were not clones, IIRC. Not to mention the clone trooper gunners in ROTS.

Elheru Aran wrote:Vaguely IIRC, in older canon the Republic Navy was something of an intergalactic security patrol/FBI type organization? Sort of 'the Feds'. Could be totally off base on that though.

In that case, its not really a navy, is it? Just a police force with access to starships in a setting where a plenty of ordinary citizens have their own starship.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:Vaguely IIRC, in older canon the Republic Navy was something of an intergalactic security patrol/FBI type organization? Sort of 'the Feds'. Could be totally off base on that though.

In that case, its not really a navy, is it? Just a police force with access to starships in a setting where a plenty of ordinary citizens have their own starship.

Sure, but if they are big enough starships, it counts. Also remember that Admiral Yularan fought battles for the republic navy before the clone wars. Against Admiral Trench most notably. So there was a navy of some kind.

It likely operates a bit like the EU + NATO + the UN. Each member state is mostly-sovereign (and can take the form of a few different scales. System or sector, depending on the size of the member state). They send representatives to the republic and agree to follow a common set of laws as determined by the republic senate, with other authorities being reserved for the member states. Nominally, the Republic should be able to call up its military (whether it has a standing one or calls for contributions from its constituent members, I dont know. But the Military Creation Act mentioned in AoTC supports the latter) if there is a problem (like the trade federation holding the Naboo system hostage in a tax dispute). But lately (period indeterminate), the senate has been so bogged down in corruption that it takes an act of god to make that happen, so aggressive polities (like the trade federation) have been permitted to run rampant.

The Romulan Republic wrote:In that case, its not really a navy, is it? Just a police force with access to starships in a setting where a plenty of ordinary citizens have their own starship.

Why? US Coast Guard is military in all but name, in fact dwarfing a lot of 'real' navies around. Though, that can be obviously blamed on over-militarization of USA. Still, even purely 'police' forces in just XX century often made good military units after very brief training. They already have all the hallmarks of military, just give them heavier guns and tell them to shot to kill and you're (almost) done.

Irbis wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:In that case, its not really a navy, is it? Just a police force with access to starships in a setting where a plenty of ordinary citizens have their own starship.

Why? US Coast Guard is military in all but name, in fact dwarfing a lot of 'real' navies around. Though, that can be obviously blamed on over-militarization of USA. Still, even purely 'police' forces in just XX century often made good military units after very brief training. They already have all the hallmarks of military, just give them heavier guns and tell them to shot to kill and you're (almost) done.

it's not unique to the USA, Rajavartiolaitos (aka Finnish Border Guard) is for all intents and purposes the fourth branch of the Finnish Defense Force other 3 being Army, Air Force and Marine Force (essetially combination of the navy and marines), with full military uniform and ranks (based on those of the army).

Lord Revan wrote:it's not unique to the USA, Rajavartiolaitos (aka Finnish Border Guard) is for all intents and purposes the fourth branch of the Finnish Defense Force other 3 being Army, Air Force and Marine Force (essetially combination of the navy and marines), with full military uniform and ranks (based on those of the army).

Yes, quite a lot of border guards are military in all but name, or actual military, but it's a lot easier (and cheaper) to have armed land than naval units. Making US Coast Guard stand out. Doubly so in Star Wars, where it's not just ships with real cannons and missiles (something I doubt any land based border guard has) but actual WMDs on starships, so calling it 'just' a police force is a bit unwarranted, IMO.

The USCG isn't that much of a Navy. Sure it's big, but have you seen the Cutters and what they're armed with? A deck gun, some CIWS and .50 cal machine guns. Impressive sure, but Arleigh Burkes they ain't. Maybe back in WWII they were more equivalent but then that was an actual war where they had to worry about German subs off the US East Coast, so it made sense. But in terms of modern naval ships, USCG Cutters are pretty low on the list. I guess the helicopters might still be able to arm missiles and stuff but I really don't know.

RogueIce wrote:The USCG isn't that much of a Navy. Sure it's big, but have you seen the Cutters and what they're armed with? A deck gun, some CIWS and .50 cal machine guns. Impressive sure, but Arleigh Burkes they ain't. Maybe back in WWII they were more equivalent but then that was an actual war where they had to worry about German subs off the US East Coast, so it made sense. But in terms of modern naval ships, USCG Cutters are pretty low on the list. I guess the helicopters might still be able to arm missiles and stuff but I really don't know.

They did once pack Harpoon missiles, but those are long gone and never coming back. If the USCG needs real warships, they would call the US Navy. As for their helicopters, the default is armed with only a machine gun for use against drug boats. They could embark US Navy helicopters* for more serious combat, but this would obviously require taking them from the Navy who is unlikely to give them up

* the USCG also flies a derivative of the Blackhawk, so the facilities should largely be the same. Though in most cases the USCG flies the smaller HH-65 Dolphin, a derivative of the Eurocopter AS565 that several nations use as an ASW helicopter.

RogueIce wrote:The USCG isn't that much of a Navy. Sure it's big, but have you seen the Cutters and what they're armed with? A deck gun, some CIWS and .50 cal machine guns.

I take you never saw Polish navy then

Impressive sure, but Arleigh Burkes they ain't. Maybe back in WWII they were more equivalent but then that was an actual war where they had to worry about German subs off the US East Coast, so it made sense. But in terms of modern naval ships, USCG Cutters are pretty low on the list. I guess the helicopters might still be able to arm missiles and stuff but I really don't know.

At 4500 tons, new CG cutters are bigger than what most navies field, save for largest modern destroyers and frigates. If you look at say German navy, only three Sachsen-class air defence frigates are larger. Russians are currently building frigates of same size as CG ship with larger class being planned in decade or two. Most of rest of Europe is lucky if they can field third what they had in 1985.

Cutters might appear undergunned but their helicopter wing is pretty good and they have lots of space for extra weapons, nothing to scoff at. Yes, they might appear weak next to newest ocean-going ships of top NATO navies, but 95% of countries of Earth can't quite match that. I am pretty sure that would be the case in SW, too, maybe places like Kuat can field larger ships than Republic Space Guard, but for most planets these would be impossibly big and advanced warships.