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So, here we go.

So this evil planetary governor decides to use mind altering drugs to control the populace, but something goes horribly wrong. The drug is distributed in gaseous form across the planet, but instead of rendering the people docile, it kills most of them leaving only a thousand alive. And these survivors begin to develop awesome psychic powers—enough to cause system wide devastation.

Which brings us to the Jedi, because you know they're not going to allow these monsters to run amok in their galaxy! So now the Jedi have to pull out all the stops using the Force because weapons are totally useless against these super psychic mutants!

Oh, one more thing—the mutants are not using the Force, although their super amped up psychic powers give them abilities similar to the Jedi. Enough to make them a challenge, at least.

Well, that's it. I know the unstoppable psychic mutant monster has been done before in science fiction, but hey, so have zombies, and Death Troopers had zombies, right? So why not unstoppable psychic mutant monsters? As far as I know, it's never been done in Star Wars.

Never read Crystal Star, have you?

No, why? Does it have an unstoppable psychic mutant monster in it?

more or less and it's also considered one of the worst EU stories in existance.

the "not really Jedi honest" mutants need a really, really good writer to become nothing but cheap gimmick especially since the nature of the Force is far from clear cut.

Oh well, that leaves me out. I suck as a writer.

By the way, aren't there entire races in the Star Wars galaxy who are telepathic? And doesn't that show that one can be psychic without being Force sensitive? After all, if being psychic and Force sensitive were the same, there'd be billions of Jedi, not just thousands, right?

I can't remember any mention of races that are both telepathic and not low grade Force aware (the Miraluka species from the legendaries for example see by using the Force but still aren't all jedi).

In legendaries there were species that were all Force aware but only few were strong enough with the Force to have potential to be Jedi or Sith.

There's a telepathic race, the Columni, IIRC, but they're exclusively EU. There are a few races with minor psychic abilities like the Gotal, but again, EU/'legendaries'. Psychic or telepathic abilities do not equate to the ability to *use* the Force, although they may work *via* the Force, like the Miraluka above. They may allow for a higher genetic predisposition towards Force using among those gifted species, but nobody has ever particularly elaborated. Trying to bestow the ability to use the Force by artificial means almost always fails-- Crystal Star being an example, the Waru creature in that story was being used as one way to do so IIRC.

Oh, okay.

How the Force works (beyond 'do or do not, there is no try') has never been elaborated in any significant way. It's one of the deeper mysteries of the Star Wars universe. If someone tries to explain it, usually they get ridiculed to hell and back (see midi-chlorians, reaction to). *shrugs* a little mystery is a good thing to have...

If the situation is that awful why not just nuke the goddamn planet from orbit?

Also, if the author wants to write about "super amped up psyhic monsters" (why are they automatically monsters for having psychic powers?), why write in the Star Wars universe? Why must the Jedi in particular face it? What is it that makes the Jedi a good counter to these monsters?

The bit of "being psyhic but not using the Force"... well, what the fuck do they use then? Being psychic is a description, not a root cause. It says you can read minds, not why you can read minds. No, saying "a drug/virus" did it is not enough, it does not explain how that allows them to do that. Then again, in the old EU (Jedi Academy in particular) spice's ability was actual short-term telepathy.

Also, you mentioned where do the super-amped-up -wankfests come from, but where do the zombies? Zombies are not particularly threatening to a lightsaber-wielding Jedi if its OK to kill them. In that Clone Wars episode the main tension came from Asoka refusing to kill people who she regards as friends (in the other, it was being stuck in caves).

By the way, aren't there entire races in the Star Wars galaxy who are telepathic? And doesn't that show that one can be psychic without being Force sensitive? After all, if being psychic and Force sensitive were the same, there'd be billions of Jedi, not just thousands, right?

In some of the lore, the "psychics" or "telepathic" creatures actually use exotic organic senses (like one that senses people's electromagnetic fields) that have a "natural", non-Force explanation. They use it to communicate and can detect thoughts/reactions of other species the same way (thus essentially being using exotic senses for body-language reading). I don't recall which species that was.

But even ignoring that, being able to use the Force only in one specific way species-wide does not equate that you can use the Force as a Jedi-candidate Force-sensitive could. Being telepathic =/= able to do telekinesis. It's like saying that because a microlife has photo-sensitive parts (to tell whether it's light or day), it can see like a human eyeball.

I don't know, chi? Something similar the Force, but not quite the same? I don't pretend to understand this metaphysical stuff.

As for why they don't just nuke the planet—the psychics can see you coming and crush/detonate your bombs/ships before they even reach the planet.

As for the facing the Jedi in the Star Wars galaxy, these super amped up psychics just seem like an interesting and credible challenge to me. Much more so than the Mandalorians anyway.

I think the zombies were the result of some kind of Sith alchemy, but I don't really remember.

There's the basic problem that when you have something as iconic to franchise as the "Force" is to Star Wars it takes a really good writer to not make something that has Force like powers but isn't the Force seem like a forced (excuse the pun) rip-off and lazy story design.

When not wanked to point of absurdity and treated semi-realistically Mandalorians are actually a far better match storywise to the Jedi as they work against the weaknesses of the Jedi Order (mainly the low number of Jedi) since there's most likely billions of Mandos (they're a culture with several planets under their control) while the Jedi Order has tens of thousands of members(at most) and not all of those are really combat trained. So mandos can overwhelm the Jedi, like the CIS droid army.

again problem here is trying to match (and some cases surpassing) the abilties of the Jedi without resorting to the Force, instead of thinking of inventive ways to use the weaknesses of the Jedi Order to the advantage of the story.

Did I mention this is a terrible story idea? Just wanted to make that clear.

Chris Parr wrote:Did I mention this is a terrible story idea? Just wanted to make that clear.

yes I just pointed out rather basic issue that makes it such a terrible idea.

I don't know, chi? Something similar the Force, but not quite the same? I don't pretend to understand this metaphysical stuff.

Then what are you doing thinking about writing about it if you yourself have no idea why things happen?

As for why they don't just nuke the planet—the psychics can see you coming and crush/detonate your bombs/ships before they even reach the planet.

Can they see the present/future or just the minds of the people doing it? If its the latter, than just use droids to nuke them.

As for the facing the Jedi in the Star Wars galaxy, these super amped up psychics just seem like an interesting and credible challenge to me. Much more so than the Mandalorians anyway.

I don't see it because by very definition of the psyics is that they are a wankfest. You cannot make a battle against a wankfest because no matter how good a move you make, the wankfest just wanks out of it and hammers you with bullshit. A wankfest is the ultimate of what the imagination can make and thus will always be more powerful than something constrained by rules and restrictions.

This is why you need rules for fictional powers and why fiction working with those rules is better than fiction overruling them constantly.

If you can make a series of strict rules about the pysics and the limits of their abilities, as well as making rules how their abilities interact (or don't) with the Jedi's Force abilites, then you have something that's worth thinking about writing. It can even be good if you do it right.

again problem here is trying to match (and some cases surpassing) the abilties of the Jedi without resorting to the Force, instead of thinking of inventive ways to use the weaknesses of the Jedi Order to the advantage of the story.

The problem is that the Force does not have proper limits in its use, only a character's abilities with the Force. We have a ad-hoc, descriptive idea what the Force can do (trough saying "this Jedi/Sith did this") with limited idea how and where the limitations are. Because it is mysterious and because sometimes its a plot device, its hard for a writer to know where the borders of an action are (for example, Yoda's negation of Force Lighting: is it something so hard that only he can do, only an experienced Jedi Master can do or merely an obscure skill?). You have one writer that is halfway omnipotent against non-Force users and then have the same character be overwhelmed by a few inconveniences in the next book. It is hard to tell where a particular Force power is warranted or plain-out wank (such as foreseeing an otherwise perfectly-executed ambush). The best you can do is to vaguely establish the limits of abilities of particular characters and hope that they fit into the universe's framework.

Why yes, the psychics are a wankfest, but in my imagination so are the Jedi, so the two are roughly evenly matched.

The psychics do have limits—their effective range for telekinesis is only a few billion kilometers. That sounds like a lot, I know, but it's just a speck in a galaxy spanning over a hundred thousand light years.

Anyway it doesn't matter if you nuke their planet anyway because they can teleport anywhere in the Galaxy! How? I don't know, wormholes? The Emperor had the ability to open wormholes in the EU didn't he?

I know, I know, more wanking.

At least it's not like "Akira." That kid blew up the universe with his godlike psychic powers!

It's worth noting that "force user" does not automatically equal "Jedi or Sith." There were a number of groups in the Eu that were Force users but subscribed to a different philosophy. The Bendu I think, the guys who talked about the White Current in the Black Fleet books etc. The Jedi and sith are simply the most prominent Force users.

Why yes, the psychics are a wankfest, but in my imagination so are the Jedi, so the two are roughly evenly matched.

So you are approaching the whole idea of wanked-versus-wanked.

It is true that because of how nebulously defined are the Jedi abilities it can be easy to slip into wank territory but the Jedi were never shown as all-powerful. More powerful than the average soldier, yes, but not infinitely so.

The psychics do have limits—their effective range for telekinesis is only a few billion kilometers. That sounds like a lot, I know, but it's just a speck in a galaxy spanning over a hundred thousand light years.

Anyway it doesn't matter if you nuke their planet anyway because they can teleport anywhere in the Galaxy! How? I don't know, wormholes?

So in other words, their abilities far surpass the abilities of the Jedi. There has been no demonstration of the Jedi ever lifting anything that is out of their eyesight. What chance the Jedi are supposed to have? That is the angle that this should be approached.

[quote/]

The Emperor had the ability to open wormholes in the EU didn't he?[q/quote]

No. He could create sudden hyperspace storms. It is implied that normally hyperspace storms are a natural phenomenon and that the Emperor was exceptional in being able to create one, a pinnacle ability of the Sith (next to being immortal). Even then it was implied that it took him tremendous amount of effort to keep it under control and died when the control was disrupted.

I know, I know, more wanking.

No, you are trying to reign it in and the fact that you acknowledge is good. There are professional writers that have lost it and go overboard.

At least it's not like "Akira." That kid blew up the universe with his godlike psychic powers!

Bad is still bad, just because there is worse does not mean it will suddenly become good.

Chris Parr wrote:At least it's not like "Akira." That kid blew up the universe with his godlike psychic powers!

That sounds interesting. Is that from an anime or something?

Purple wrote:

Chris Parr wrote:At least it's not like "Akira." That kid blew up the universe with his godlike psychic powers!

That sounds interesting. Is that from an anime or something?

You're serious right?

I've actually never seen that film but even I know what "Akira" meant here (it's an anime film)

Lord Revan wrote:You're serious right?

I've actually never seen that film but even I know what "Akira" meant here (it's an anime film)

That explains it. Whilst I am a fan of anime I tend to only watch what I can get on cable TV. And channels that feature full length movies tend not to be in the basic cheapo package.

"Size matters not."

If we take this at face value then the Jedi should be capable of telekinetic feats at least equal to those of the super psychics. In fact, if I remember right, the Jedi did telekinetically shove a Super Star Destroyer out of the Yavin System in "Darksaber".

So the only limits a Jedi should have are those of willpower and belief. At least that's how it seems to me.

You have to remember that alot of things Yoda says cannot be taken at face value, he's trying to teach someone with deepseated opinions how the world works to think differently about how the world works. Also while theoretically there might be no cap to powers of a Jedi or Sith, practically in most stories Force users land in the "strong but not unbeatble" category, also most of the really impressive events involve Jedi that are legends within the order or special circumstances.

To give a non-Star Wars example, magical energy in Warcraft can literally tear a planet apart (that is what happend to Draenor and shards of it became known as Outland), also there's as far as I know no known cap for how strong a mage or warlock can be, in fact that planet tearing I mentioned was done by an orcish warlock named Ner'zhul. However breaking of Draenor was a special case that involved a complex ritual and alot of powerful artifacts (not mention a mistake) and Ner'Zhul was an atypically powerful magic user and your typical magic user isn't anywhere close to that level of power so a typical grunt with a nothing but melee weapon is still a threat to a typical magic user.

so instead of taking the biggest outlayer there is and assuming that's the norm, one should take a power level that best suits the story.

with the match wank with wank solution is that it doesn't work, it pretty much always comes out as a writer's fiat as to which side won this time and that's a really boring story.

Too bad, I really wanted to see the Jedi pushed beyond their mundane limits.

Chris Parr wrote:Too bad, I really wanted to see the Jedi pushed beyond their mundane limits.

making a story like that is really hard to do even semi-decently as there's no theoretical limit to the powers of the Force only limits with the users so it's really easy to solve any story problems with just "more power!" or writer's fiat neither of which make an intresting story.

Lets take Superman for example his strenght is essentially godlike, but what makes Lex Luthor work as Superman's nemesis is that Supes can't just bash him into the ground and call it a day but needs to use his brains instead.