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1.) Ysalamiri.

Okay, so the Force is needed by all life, right? So how can these fuzzy lizards survive by rejecting it?

2.) Severe Force

So this was an ability that was only used once by Nomi Sunrider against Ulic Qel Droma and then forgotten. Why? Wouldn't I have come in handy against irredeemable Force users who were or are abusing their power?

1)As stated in the other thread what "Force" is never stated in any degree of clarity (and I suspect it never will be) and I suspect that those abilities are in fact force based.
2)most like there's again thing off-screen we don't know off and then there's the thing that it could be lost technique as well (oh and if you mean the ability cut someone's connection from the Force it was used against Darth Revan as well though he regained the ability later).

Ysalamiri are special, just cause. The Nomi Sunrider thing is special, just cause. There's a lot of wacky stuff that goes on with the Force and nobody's really bothered to explain it other than 'there's a lot of special snowflakes'.

Also bear in mind that both your examples are from the early or mid 90s iirc. Star Wars canon was much weaker back then. They didn't really try to keep it consistent until they got into the late 90s and the 00's... and then of course we had the utter mess that was the Yuuzhan Vong and the prequel universe got blown wide open (until after Episode 1 came out, writing stories set in the prequel era was a strict no-no, although you could have flashbacks). Remember, that's the same generation as Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, Tales from Jabba's Palace, the West End Games books, etc... it was something of a ungodly mess.

Warning: defending bad canon-managing here.

1.) Ysalamiri.

Okay, so the Force is needed by all life, right? So how can these fuzzy lizards survive by rejecting it?

The impression I got is that it created a field around which the Force cannot be manipulated, even mentally. Not that they negate the force.

2.) Severe Force

So this was an ability that was only used once by Nomi Sunrider against Ulic Qel Droma and then forgotten. Why? Wouldn't I have come in handy against irredeemable Force users who were or are abusing their power?

How would be able to practice it? How would you be able to teach it? Imagine if it got into Sith hands rather than Jedi. It's an ability too dangerous to be routinely utilized.

There are any number explanations for the first one. I think the one the EU tended to go for was the implication that there was some kind of force spectrum. The Ysalamiri and people cut off the force like the Vong are only cut off from the segment the Jedi can see/sense. The 'visible light' equivalent of the spectrum. While they still exist on the infra-red/untralviolet etc equivalent.

Of course another possibility, rather less palpable to fans is that Yoda was did not know what he was talking about. Jediasm is a sort of a religion and he's talking in metaphor not literal fact.

The wild vornskyrs were able to track and target Luke even inside the ysalamiri's Force blackout, so the ysalamiri's anti-Force bubbles can't be absolute. The Force must still be present inside the bubbles, just beyond the Jedi's ability to perceive and manipulate.

In that case the ysalamiri's ability would be useless to them, because they evolved it as a defense against Force-sensitive predators.

Perhaps the wild animals that tracked Luke did so using more mundane senses such as sight and smell. It's not like we'd wonder how wolves or hyenas or bobcats would be able to track someone through a forest full of Force-suppressing animals.

As to that "Sever Force" thing, I'm going to agree with Zixinus that it sounds like an ability which is inherently dangerous, morally questionable if you think the Force is sacred, and is only useful on the rare occasions where you have a hostile Force user and you need them alive... for a reason other than their Force powers. Say, because they know things that you need (Revan), or because you really don't want to kill them.

Alternatively, it's a weapon to use against hostile Force users- but still only useful if conflict among Force users is common. In certain parts of galactic history, it isn't.

So it's easy to imagine the technique simply being lost after a few hundred years pass in which nobody can think of a use for it.

In that case the ysalamiri's ability would be useless to them, because they evolved it as a defense against Force-sensitive predators.

Perhaps the wild animals that tracked Luke did so using more mundane senses such as sight and smell. It's not like we'd wonder how wolves or hyenas or bobcats would be able to track someone through a forest full of Force-suppressing animals.

It would be the result of escalation of natural selection. At first the vornskyrs were only a little Force-sensitive. Then the Ysalamariri were only managed to dampen Force-sensitivity a little. Then one got stronger as a response, to which the other's ability got stronger and so on. The end result is that the vornskyrs have just enough of an edge to hunt the Ysalamari successfully to uphold the species but not enough to make the Ysalamari extinct. Force-sensitive evolved outside of this would be caught off-guard.

I think Ysalamari are a good idea but are too powerful. They don't just dampen Force Sensitivity within their field but directed Force powers like Force Lightning.

The 'evolutionary arms race' explanation sounds quite good. It also explains why human (and humanoid) Jedi are so outclassed against ysalamiri. The ysalamiri's power is sufficient to confuse the native predators of their homeworld, and those predators are better at tracking prey through the Force than just about any human. Much as a wolf is better at tracking prey through scent than any human, no matter how well trained.

Personally I think the ysalamiri are just about exactly right in terms of power. They're a highly effective defense against Force attacks, allowing characters who lack the Force to fight back and defend themselves from characters who have it. But they're also physically vulnerable and sensitive creatures, so the protection they provide can be stripped away through cleverness and good maneuvering.

Simon_Jester wrote:The 'evolutionary arms race' explanation sounds quite good. It also explains why human (and humanoid) Jedi are so outclassed against ysalamiri. The ysalamiri's power is sufficient to confuse the native predators of their homeworld, and those predators are better at tracking prey through the Force than just about any human. Much as a wolf is better at tracking prey through scent than any human, no matter how well trained.

Personally I think the ysalamiri are just about exactly right in terms of power. They're a highly effective defense against Force attacks, allowing characters who lack the Force to fight back and defend themselves from characters who have it. But they're also physically vulnerable and sensitive creatures, so the protection they provide can be stripped away through cleverness and good maneuvering.

But what is odd about them is that they can completely absorb Force powers(like lightning or TK, though obviously not thrown objects). They would have made more sense to me if they were solely like radar jamming(as that is what they had naturally competed with), increasingly effective with distance and their mechanism was the force the Jedi to stop using their abilities due to pain caused by the interaction. Thus they would actually be less effective against Sith than Jedi as Sith could focus the pain into the Dark Side while Jedi would have to overcome it with serenity. And on the ysalamiri homeworld even the most powerful Force user would be overwhelmed.

However the fundamental problem with Force sensitive creatures is that Force abilities are only present in small numbers among sentient races. How is that possible if an entire race of creatures has the ability?

Adamskywalker007 wrote:However the fundamental problem with Force sensitive creatures is that Force abilities are only present in small numbers among sentient races. How is that possible if an entire race of creatures has the ability?

The same way some earth species are entirely color blind where as it is a trait that is very rare among other species. Different evolutionary pressures produce different results.

Purple wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:However the fundamental problem with Force sensitive creatures is that Force abilities are only present in small numbers among sentient races. How is that possible if an entire race of creatures has the ability?

The same way some earth species are entirely color blind where as it is a trait that is very rare among other species. Different evolutionary pressures produce different results.

Color blindness is a minor problem that might be worth the trade off. Feeling versus not feeling the Force is closer to having vs not having eyes.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Color blindness is a minor problem that might be worth the trade off. Feeling versus not feeling the Force is closer to having vs not having eyes.

And yet there are species on earth that do indeed not have eyes. It is implausible to assume that in a system as vast and diverse as the universe you could not find a place and time which provides evolutionary pressures to accommodate virtually every possible combination of features.

My guess is that the answer is that Force-sensitive species are like the Miraluka: they all could use the Force in a specific way as a species, but only that one specific way (using the Force to see). However they can't all use the Force like a Jedi-candidate could learn to, they are a one-trick pony.

There are degrees of Force-sensitivity and when the Jedi talk about candidates being rare, they are usually only talking about candidates that can be trained to be full Jedi and not people with lower degrees of sensitivity. It may be that learn to manipulate the Force in all the ways a Jedi can, sentience is required while animals can instinctively learn to use it in one specific way.

Zixinus wrote:My guess is that the answer is that Force-sensitive species are like the Miraluka: they all could use the Force in a specific way as a species, but only that one specific way (using the Force to see). However they can't all use the Force like a Jedi-candidate could learn to, they are a one-trick pony.

There are degrees of Force-sensitivity and when the Jedi talk about candidates being rare, they are usually only talking about candidates that can be trained to be full Jedi and not people with lower degrees of sensitivity. It may be that learn to manipulate the Force in all the ways a Jedi can, sentience is required while animals can instinctively learn to use it in one specific way.

I wonder if the Jedi are like MENSA. They only accept candidates over a certain level as that is what is required to make proper use of one's abilities. Anything lesser than that is not really enough to help a Force user as it would make them more likely to be overwhelmed by what they sense.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: But what is odd about them is that they can completely absorb Force powers(like lightning or TK, though obviously not thrown objects). They would have made more sense to me if they were solely like radar jamming(as that is what they had naturally competed with), increasingly effective with distance and their mechanism was the force the Jedi to stop using their abilities due to pain caused by the interaction.

Well, the ysalamiri's "jamming" of the Force is more like jamming whole blocks of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, so you not only lose out radar, but also other things like communications.

And they don't absorb Force powers, they just suppress them as well (the Force Lightning, for example, needs to be constantly "pushed" all the way to the target, it'd be like if someone cut off part of the electrical wiring from an outlet to a lamp).

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Zixinus wrote:My guess is that the answer is that Force-sensitive species are like the Miraluka: they all could use the Force in a specific way as a species, but only that one specific way (using the Force to see). However they can't all use the Force like a Jedi-candidate could learn to, they are a one-trick pony.

There are degrees of Force-sensitivity and when the Jedi talk about candidates being rare, they are usually only talking about candidates that can be trained to be full Jedi and not people with lower degrees of sensitivity. It may be that learn to manipulate the Force in all the ways a Jedi can, sentience is required while animals can instinctively learn to use it in one specific way.

I wonder if the Jedi are like MENSA. They only accept candidates over a certain level as that is what is required to make proper use of one's abilities. Anything lesser than that is not really enough to help a Force user as it would make them more likely to be overwhelmed by what they sense.

Not quite. From what I read about EU and lore, the Jedi (pre-Clone Wars) trained many Force-sensitives and only a section of them could become Jedi Knights. Not everyone could pass the Initiate trials and not everyone was picked as an Padawan. There were many dropouts that didn't become Padawans and instead pressed into some sort of service (it had exploration corps, agricultural corps which were the most common and medical corps I think). How much the people in those lag behind Padawans and Knights I don't know whether any comparison was made.

Yeah, the impression one gets from the prequel EU is that the Jedi are generally fairly good at finding Force sensitives over most of the Republic, one favored tactic being visiting hospitals to scan infants shortly after birth. There are definitely people out there who are mentioned as having failed the Jedi trials or whatever; IIRC there's one in that Darth Maul Shadow Hunter book, though I could be wrong.

Elheru Aran wrote:Yeah, the impression one gets from the prequel EU is that the Jedi are generally fairly good at finding Force sensitives over most of the Republic, one favored tactic being visiting hospitals to scan infants shortly after birth. There are definitely people out there who are mentioned as having failed the Jedi trials or whatever; IIRC there's one in that Darth Maul Shadow Hunter book, though I could be wrong.

There are also failed Padawans, like Count Dooku's friend/turned enemy, Lorian Nod, who stole a darkside holocron.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:But what is odd about them is that they can completely absorb Force powers(like lightning or TK, though obviously not thrown objects). They would have made more sense to me if they were solely like radar jamming(as that is what they had naturally competed with), increasingly effective with distance and their mechanism was the force the Jedi to stop using their abilities due to pain caused by the interaction. Thus they would actually be less effective against Sith than Jedi as Sith could focus the pain into the Dark Side while Jedi would have to overcome it with serenity. And on the ysalamiri homeworld even the most powerful Force user would be overwhelmed.

Hm. For plot reasons in their first appearance, it was desirable to have the ysalamiri just... nullify... Force powers rather than overwhelm them with pain. Moreover, they were written into the canon before the "Sith can run off any strong emotion" premise was firmly established.

Personally, I don't know about the idea that 'jamming' the Force is automatically more appropriate than, say, just blocking Force powers. It's like, suppose you have an organism that doesn't want to be seen. Wouldn't it be nice if it could somehow absorb the incoming light entirely and not reflect any and thus be invisible? Except that's not how light and vision work- an object that absorbs all light is very obvious if there's much in the way of ambient lighting because it's black on a colored background. So another defense against being seen is required, and evolution follows different paths.

It may well be that the nature of the Force is such that creating a 'safe space' in which the Force cannot be perturbed or manipulated is easier than actively interfering with the senses of a Force-sensitive being.



However the fundamental problem with Force sensitive creatures is that Force abilities are only present in small numbers among sentient races. How is that possible if an entire race of creatures has the ability?[/quote]

Conjectural: Myrkr (if that's how it's spelled, it's been years since I cracked a Thrawn book and I don't have the time to look it up) had some predator which used active Force sensing in some manner; perhaps a precursor of the vornskr. Proto-ysalamiri evolved the ability to nullify the Force in order to escape detection by these predators. The predator might have been able to sense the Force-nullifying bubble, but once they got into it they would have to try to find the arboreal ysalamiri without their special ability aiding them.

Doesn't have to be Force sensing though. Could've been something like Force jumping or Force lightning. After a while it becomes somewhat obvious that Tim Zahn never really thought it through, he just needed a convenient device to explain why Luke didn't just board the Chimera and tell Thrawn to surrender with a little mental push, or how Thrawn could control the C'baoth clone.

It's indeed Myrkr and I suspect if writers always thought things through to the end a lot of SciFi/Fantasy would look a lot different

Elheru Aran wrote:Doesn't have to be Force sensing though. Could've been something like Force jumping or Force lightning. After a while it becomes somewhat obvious that Tim Zahn never really thought it through, he just needed a convenient device to explain why Luke didn't just board the Chimera and tell Thrawn to surrender with a little mental push, or how Thrawn could control the C'baoth clone.

What bothers me about it is that they aren't necessary. There are plenty of ways to stop Jedi, even without Sith. Look at the opening to TPM. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are cutting through the standard battle droids like they were butter, so they bring out droidikas that they can't possible fight while still getting to the Viceroy. So the Jedi were forced to escape.

If Zahn hadn't been so minimalist, there is an ideal counter to Jedi. It is a damn big galaxy and with only Luke active he can only be in so many places at once. And given how clever Thrawn usually was, I'm sure he could cook up a plan that heavily involves distracting Luke as a key component. Mara Jade might be a nice part of said plan.

And C'Baoth was the other major part of those books I didn't like. Something bothers me about the idea that it is possible to clone Jedi. If Mara had more or less replaced him as Thrawn's ally to deal with Luke that would have been vastly preferable. Mara could then turn on Thrawn in the finale in some fashion that I can't currently be bothered to think up.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:Doesn't have to be Force sensing though. Could've been something like Force jumping or Force lightning. After a while it becomes somewhat obvious that Tim Zahn never really thought it through, he just needed a convenient device to explain why Luke didn't just board the Chimera and tell Thrawn to surrender with a little mental push, or how Thrawn could control the C'baoth clone.

What bothers me about it is that they aren't necessary. There are plenty of ways to stop Jedi, even without Sith. Look at the opening to TPM. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are cutting through the standard battle droids like they were butter, so they bring out droidikas that they can't possible fight while still getting to the Viceroy. So the Jedi were forced to escape.

If Zahn hadn't been so minimalist, there is an ideal counter to Jedi. It is a damn big galaxy and with only Luke active he can only be in so many places at once.

You mean battle droids? That'd stop Luke from cutting his way into through the Chimaera and decapitating Thrawn and Pellaeon, but droids wouldn't stop Jedi from sabotaging the Chimaera or getting into non-kinetic mischief if they fool the guards.

What bothers me about it is that they aren't necessary. There are plenty of ways to stop Jedi, even without Sith. Look at the opening to TPM. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are cutting through the standard battle droids like they were butter, so they bring out droidikas that they can't possible fight while still getting to the Viceroy. So the Jedi were forced to escape.

Really? Because you are usually the one that is about how Jedi outmatch almost any muggle, due to their telepathy and foresight.

If Zahn hadn't been so minimalist, there is an ideal counter to Jedi.

Can someone please explain what is meant by "minimalism" here? I have seen the term thrown around but I don't get what was Zahn "minimalist" in?

t is a damn big galaxy and with only Luke active he can only be in so many places at once. And given how clever Thrawn usually was, I'm sure he could cook up a plan that heavily involves distracting Luke as a key component. Mara Jade might be a nice part of said plan.

And what would have been the plan exactly? It's always easy to say what the author should have done, but what is it (in precise detail) that the author could have done that would have preserved the book's plot?

And C'Baoth was the other major part of those books I didn't like. Something bothers me about the idea that it is possible to clone Jedi.

I actually agree with you there but not for the reason you are. Cloning a Jedi is one thing, but what bothered me is that C'Baoth knew things (and skills) from his DNA donor. Zahn has fallen for that age-old stupid misconception about cloning that you are copying people, not DNA (so a clone of someone is a copy of someone rather than just being a later-born twin)

The closest thing to an alternative explanation for that was that C'Baoth somehow had a telepathic link to the original master and thus his knowledge. Zahn has fallen for that age-old stupid misconception about cloning that you are copying people, not DNA (so a clone of someone is a copy of someone rather than just being a later-born twin). The only other explanation was that the Force taught him trough his connection to the original master. But then why didn't see Obi-Wan Kenobi doing that to Luke?