a new, better and The Reasonable refutation of the Plinkus reviews... maybe?

[lGrand Anhoop]

RLM's EpI-III reviews are almost complete bunk, and I've got a whole list of arguments to back that up.

The only problem is that, due to my inherently combative nature, anything less than presenting those arguments to a horde of arrogant, devoted Plinkett fans would be boring to me, and also lack that whole "testing ideas against fiercest opposition" angle.
One of the places where I tried this was the RLM forum itself, however, while those are as arrogant and devoted as it gets, they quickly found that they were no match for me and quickly gave up on posting anything of substance in response - so that other extreme, despite being slightly more amusing, ended up in deadening boredom all the same.

I came here mainly because this is the site known for the Raynor rebuttal and I remembered reading heated discussions on that thread... however, looking around now, people here seem to have a rather balanced outlook on these movies, and are probably bored to groans and tears by this subject by now.


So yea, is any of this worth doing here, or is the topic pretty much chewed up and done at this point?
For instance, unlike most notable predecessors known out there, my refutation focuses neither on minute "nerdy" details, nor lofty-wooley art analysis stuff - and since this is an SF board and particularly the former seems to be a popular topic, I'm not sure if that angle would fit.

[Elheru Aran]

I don't think much of anybody cares. The new movies are where the focus is going to be for some time, as well as the new version of the EU. It doesn't help that the new trilogy is a deliberate move away from the prequel trilogy, intentionally so per JJ Abrams.

Ultimately they are just movies... if someone wants to go on about them and wet themselves in the process, well, who cares. It's not going to make much of a difference outside that person's circle.

[The Romulan Republic]

I just hope they're not going to be so stupid and petty as to officially decanonize or otherwise outright contradict the Prequels. That would actually probably be a point where I'd have to rule the Abrams film non-cannon.

[Galvatron]

Even I would oppose that.

[Channel72]

Go for it. My only purpose in life is to defend the honor of RLM, particularly on the Internet, where things are really important. Also, every night I sit in a corner and cry, dreaming about revenge against George Lucas for the ruin he wrought upon me.

[lGrand Anhoop]

I just hope they're not going to be so stupid and petty as to officially decanonize or otherwise outright contradict the Prequels. That would actually probably be a point where I'd have to rule the Abrams film non-cannon.

So if they had a new sccene of Leia reminiscing about her mother, that'd be an outrage wouldn't it

You're taking this whole "canon" thing way too seriously - there is no canon, only movies and stories that acknowledge and don't acknowledge other movies and stories.
If the ST decanons the PT, then within the context of the ST only the OT will exist, and within the context of the PT only the OT (well... minus certain parts). IV can be viewed within the context of V, or outside of it - none of this is real, all that counts is what works and how well.


They should start a new parallel continuity in which they erase Return of the Jedi if you ask me.

I don't think much of anybody cares. The new movies are where the focus is going to be for some time, as well as the new version of the EU. It doesn't help that the new trilogy is a deliberate move away from the prequel trilogy, intentionally so per JJ Abrams.

Ultimately they are just movies... if someone wants to go on about them and wet themselves in the process, well, who cares. It's not going to make much of a difference outside that person's circle.

Well, unless that someone happens to be really notable and ends up influencing half the internet's opinion ; - )

But looks like this community doesn't belong to that half, so I guess I'll just quietly bugger off

[The Romulan Republic]

I just hope they're not going to be so stupid and petty as to officially decanonize or otherwise outright contradict the Prequels. That would actually probably be a point where I'd have to rule the Abrams film non-cannon.

So if they had a new sccene of Leia reminiscing about her mother, that'd be an outrage wouldn't it

No, because it has precedent in the OT and I pretty much figure that her remembering Padme (presuming she's not just mistaken) is due to her having a great memory, maybe assisted by the Force.

You're taking this whole "canon" thing way too seriously - there is no canon, only movies and stories that acknowledge and don't acknowledge other movies and stories.
If the ST decanons the PT, then within the context of the ST only the OT will exist, and within the context of the PT only the OT (well... minus certain parts). IV can be viewed within the context of V, or outside of it - none of this is real, all that counts is what works and how well.

Of course its not real.

But I do think canon matters. Without consistent continuity, their is no unified story and suspension of disbelief suffers.

Are you seriously arguing that it doesn't matter if an author's writing is consistent and makes sense? Because to me that's throwing one of the basic principles of writing out the window.

Now, if you want to create an alternate continuity, that's fine. But if you're trying to treat it as all one saga, then you have to remain reasonably consistent with what came before, unless you have a really good reason not to.

They should start a new parallel continuity in which they erase Return of the Jedi if you ask me.

RotJ's brilliant.

But I wouldn't actually mind alternate continuities if treated as such, rather than basically saying "this is official, fuck everything else."

[lGrand Anhoop]

No, because it has precedent in the OT and I pretty much figure that her remembering Padme (presuming she's not just mistaken) is due to her having a great memory, maybe assisted by the Force.

She said she died when Leia was really young, not while she was a screaming baby. False memory / Force visions is pretty much the only valid retcon one could go for, and even that's artificial and forced as fack.

Let's see it's a scene where she recounts a memory from when she was 4 years old

RotJ's brilliant.

But I wouldn't actually mind alternate continuities if treated as such, rather than basically saying "this is official, fuck everything else."

Regardless of quality, it's not the proper continuation to Empire, but to some other movie that was never filmed.
This goes doubly so for I-III.


Anyway, I'll just open a new a thread for this topic if you don't mind...

[Channel72]

I can imagine ROTJ failing to meet certain expectations for the original audiences that saw it. Leia being the "other" sort of seems half-assed, I guess, even though it was somewhat foreshadowed in ESB - mainly because other than being a new revelation, it doesn't really effect the plot in any meaningful way (other than neatly resolving a love triangle). But I think ROTJ's biggest failing was that the central dilemma of the movie, which was the possibility of Luke fucking up and turning to the Dark Side, never really seemed like an actual possibility. In Empire they had that surreal scene in the swamp where he fights an apparition of Vader - which strongly hinted that Luke might follow in his father's footsteps. But in ROTJ, despite the Emperor's taunts and all that, for whatever reason I never picked up on it being a really serious danger to Luke. So when he throws his lightsaber away and refuses to kill Vader, I never got the sense that he overcame some monumental temptation to embrace the Dark Side. It just wasn't built up as a major seductive force, in the way that, for example, the Ring was in LOTR.

That said, ROTJ still kicks ass. It has the best space battle ever put to film, which somehow inexplicably still hasn't been surpassed, in my opinion, and the throne room scene with the Emperor, despite my criticism above, was really phenomenal all around.

[Elheru Aran]

Don't be absurd. There's a canon because people have established that it exists. Yes, there are inconsistencies. That happens even IRL, it wouldn't be the first time someone unconsciously made up a memory.

Anyway, it's just a bloody story, a series of movies that happen to be related. Have a little perspective. RLM is hardly 'half the internet'; I'd say that properly belongs to porn and Facebook. Neither of which are particularly concerned with Star Wars beyond the prospective new films and the occasional erotic parody with Lexington Steele as Darth Vader (that is actually a thing).

There's no need to bugger off though. If you have something to contribute in other areas of the forum, feel free. We've got enough pages with enough material to keep people interested for a good while.

[lGrand Anhoop]

Alright, discussions about whether the new movies should contradict other movies or the importance of canon or contradictions now go here, or at least will be replied to, by me... here. I mean there.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3936694

[lGrand Anhoop]

RLM is hardly 'half the internet'; I'd say that properly belongs to porn and Facebook.

Obviously I meant "Star Wars fandom / nerd movie or pop-culture communities", not the whole internet.
If it wasn't such a huge influence, do you really think I'd be so ardent right now

Neither of which are particularly concerned with Star Wars beyond the prospective new films and the occasional erotic parody with Lexington Steele as Darth Vader (that is actually a thing).

Does it got incest in it? Nah jk. Or who knows!

By the way, did you know that Attack of the Cloons[sic] is Lexi Belle's favorite Star Wars movie? It's got the pron dialogue after all.

[Knife]

I'm a huge nerd, was 4 years old when SW IV came out, and enjoyed the series up to and including today. What the hell is RLM?

[Lord Revan]

I'm a huge nerd, was 4 years old when SW IV came out, and enjoyed the series up to and including today. What the hell is RLM?

Red Letter Media an internet "critic"

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm a huge nerd, was 4 years old when SW IV came out, and enjoyed the series up to and including today. What the hell is RLM?

He is a youtube video reviewer who came up with extremely long winded criticisms of the prequels as films. Supposedly they are extremely well written and thorough. I haven't been able to watch them for more than five minutes due to the fact that the voice used has to be one of the worst narrators I have ever heard. Those who already disliked the prequels latched onto them. User Jim Raynor wrote a hundred page rebuttal*to the first hour long review of TPM.

You really never saw the debates from several years ago when they first came out? It was around 2010 or so. I'm pretty sure Mike was still around.

* Does anyone know if the site http://writersdisease.net/ is his? It seems to host the rather lengthy essay now.

[lGrand Anhoop]

Writerdisease claims not to be an apologist, but the first sign of trouble came when I read this:

He doesn’t tell Luke the truth about his father’s death, so why would he bother telling him, “Oh, your father dropped this after I cut off his legs and left him to burn to death. He used it to murder kids. Want it?” Aside from Leia somehow remembering her mother, who died in childbirth, there are few major inconsistencies that cannot be explained.

See my other thread for that (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=164158) - but the short version is that "explaining" things in this manner doesn't go well with quality storytelling.

And no, Obi-Wan was never established as a habitual liar.

And, to be fair, a lot of hard Sci-Fi fans hated C3PO in ’77 for the same reasons.

That's not not "to be fair", that's being tone-deaf and OCD.

but horrid dialogue has been a staple of the franchise since the beginning.

Ah, another "but the OT dialogue was bad too" - never heard that one before! As evidence, he of course cites the single most if not the single dodgy dialogue scene in IV and V (the solid ones), and that was made awkward on purpose.
I'm ambivalent about some of the cornier parts there (laser brain in particular), but the characters sort of losing control over their wit is THE JOKE IN THAT SCENE.

Ohhh, the OT had lame dialogue too! You old pirate, what? Horrible!
YAWN.

He is still a human being, just like you and me, and he has feelings. Don’t like his movies? Fine. But he doesn’t deserve personal attacks. Besides that, I really do love the guy. George Lucas helped define my childhood. In my elementary school, we often pretended to be Luke or Han during recess, and many of my earliest stories involved the Death Star. All the cartoons I grew up with, from He-Man to GI*Joe, were influenced by Star Wars in some way.

I am 41 years old, but there are days that I feel much older. Today, I went to the park with my kids and we played Jedi, waving our styrofoam lightsabers and jumping from rocks

Now that was corny.


Anyway, so far I'm not particularly inspired to listen to the podcast.
Whether Jim Raynor or not, a lot of those points were beyond lame, though the rest was good.


The thing is, an ideological conflict (i.e. shite slinging fest) surrounds these movies and questions about their quality or legitimacy - irrational people trying to force every argument to fit their purist conclusions can be found on both sides, and they're often the ones that end up debating each other.

Writer's Disease here appears like a somewhat mild case of an ideologue fan, while RLM represents the extreme of the irrational detractor camp.

[Galvatron]

Go for it. My only purpose in life is to defend the honor of RLM, particularly on the Internet, where things are really important. Also, every night I sit in a corner and cry, dreaming about revenge against George Lucas for the ruin he wrought upon me.

He did it himself quite effectively already. He actually does a pretty good Palpatine impression too. Skip to 1:08...

[Ralin]

No, because it has precedent in the OT and I pretty much figure that her remembering Padme (presuming she's not just mistaken) is due to her having a great memory, maybe assisted by the Force.

She said she died when Leia was really young, not while she was a screaming baby. False memory / Force visions is pretty much the only valid retcon one could go for, and even that's artificial and forced as fack.

Let's see it's a scene where she recounts a memory from when she was 4 years old

I thought it was pretty obvious she was talking about her adoptive mother. You know, Bail Organa's wife, the Queen of Alderaan?

[Galvatron]

Even though Luke specifically asked her about her REAL mother? If she didn't know she was adopted and thought Breha was her real mother, you'd think her response would be "how many mothers do you think I have?"

[Ralin]

Even though Luke specifically asked her about her REAL mother? If she didn't know she was adopted and thought Breha was her real mother, you'd think her response would be "how many mothers do you think I have?"

Presumably (can't remember if there's canon on this) she died when Leia was fairly young and Leia confused real memories of her adopted mother with fake memories of her birth mother. Early childhood memories aren't the most reliable.

That said, I haven't watched that scene in Return of the Jedi in awhile so I'd have to double check the exact wording

[Galvatron]

Yeah, that's in the behind the scenes section for Breha on the Wookieepedia.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breha_Or ... er_origins

For what it's worth, I think that's a terrible rationalization. Newbie OP has a point.

[Prometheus Unbound]

RLM's EpI-III reviews are almost complete bunk, and I've got a whole list of arguments to back that up..

Yeah but he's funny and creative - so he has fans. Rebutting them like that weirdo did with 120 pages is both sad and pathetic. Because no one. And I mean no one gives a shit. Not on that level.

[lGrand Anhoop]

Quick response to Leia issue:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 9#p3936939

[lGrand Anhoop]

Go for it. My only purpose in life is to defend the honor of RLM, particularly on the Internet, where things are really important. Also, every night I sit in a corner and cry, dreaming about revenge against George Lucas for the ruin he wrought upon me.

He did it himself quite effectively already.

Not sure if joking...

RLM's EpI-III reviews are almost complete bunk, and I've got a whole list of arguments to back that up..

Yeah but he's funny and creative - so he has fans. Rebutting them like that weirdo did with 120 pages is both sad and pathetic. Because no one. And I mean no one gives a shit. Not on that level.

It's funny how a lot of those people who "don't give a shit", are more than happy to insist on the unassailable correctness of these reviews whenever no one's challenging them - could it be that "don't give a shit" is just an excuse and in reality they just don't wanna be shown wrong cause that makes them feel butthurt?

And people who just find the reviews entertaining, don't concern me atm - if you don't make any claims, you've got nothing to back up, simple as that.


Btw, who cares about 108 page guy? Read this thread's title

[Patroklos]

LM's EpI-III reviews are almost complete bunk

Since most of it is opnion its not really possible. Its great you disagree with them, many people disagree with you.

and I've got a whole list of arguments to back that up.

Sure you do. You and a thousand new posters who show up here claiming to have "destroyed someone". That goes for the thousands of posters who do the exact opposite. Why don't you link the thread and show us your power.

Listen, I am an RLM fan and find most of the reviews they made to factually accurate when that is relevant and to align with my opinion where that is relevant. That said, while I will argue with people one way or the other for shits and giggles for most of it there is no objective right. When people go "LOLZ I DESTOYED THEM" they are engaging in the same behavior they claim to despise from the RLM reviews.

Those reviews endure because they resonate with their fans and SW fans alike. You can't explain that away with a hand wave.