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Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-14 09:13pm
by Benny the Ball
I found this article from last year that neatly explains something that's been bothering me about the Legends EU for a long time now:

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2014/02/s ... ic-empire/
Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire
February 20, 2014 Jay Shah Imperial Court Circular

Recently on the Imperial Court Circular, we’ve discussed the gendered aspects of fan service as well as the elements of what makes the Galactic Empire the primary Star Wars antagonist. Today we’ll blend issues of the sexes and the Galactic Empire by discussing one of the Galactic Empire’s most enduring and iconic traits: institutionalized misogyny.

As we’ve discussed on this site in the past, the Galactic Empire has particular political and historical antecedents: among them, Nazi Germany, Imperial Rome, the British colonial empire, and even certain American presidential administrations. The Empire has taken many traits and trappings from these inspirations, from Nazi-styled military uniforms to a political organization that reflects the rise to power of figures such as Julius and Augustus Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler. The tone of the Empire reflects both the successes – particularly of the more positive British and Roman examples – and darkest traits of these inspirations: military dictatorship, pervasive propaganda, and racial bigotry (in the case of the Galactic Empire, anti-alien bigotry).

Sexism never made much sense as being one of those defining traits of the Galactic Empire. Sexism in fiction generally has two authorial justifications: first, as a reflection of actual historical sexism in the setting of the story and second, as an attempt to engage and criticize contemporary sexism through the lens of a fictional story. Since Star Wars is an invented universe, the first justification is a bit of a reach despite the historical inspirations for the Galactic Empire, and the second justification is unconvincing because of the EU’s failure to adequately address in-universe sexism in a constructive fashion.

Sexism as a reflection of historical reality

If Star Wars were a historical fiction story set in the 1940s, then it might make sense that the antagonists – the Axis Powers – were sexist in addition to being fascist, racist, and all sorts of other undesirable –ists. Sexism in that context would reflect the historical reality and it would be part of an authentic setting. In that instance, the story may well be passive or even mute on the issue of sexism: preferring to show the period as it was, and characterize a conflict according to the mores of the day. Or, the author may craft a story that does not accept the historical status quo, and sends an anti-sexist – or at least a critical – message about the practices of the day.

Star Wars is not a historical story, but it does have some real-world historical influences. Consequently, importing some of these historical traits may be legitimate – if there is a legitimate purpose behind doing so. The Galactic Empire shares many of the negative traits of its creative inspirations because it serves as a villainous government, and can function as an evocative sort of evil: the Jedi Purge/Order 66 is a genocidal act that resonates deeply to the audience and users in the ‘Dark Times’ that characterizes the initial institution of the Galactic Empire. The uniforms and the omnipresent stormtroopers also helps situate the viewer within the proper thematic lens.

But what about sexism? Was sexism a characteristic unique to Nazi Germany, Imperial Rome, or the British Empire? Not at all – Imperial Rome in particular may be thought of as well ahead of its day in women’s rights, even if regressive by modern standards, while Nazi Germany was hardly alone among the nations of its time in not treating women equally. The Empire’s sexism doesn’t easily evoke a historical association or familiarity at all.

That’s alright though – institutionalized misogyny is not a desirable trait in a government, and the Galactic Empire represents an evil that the heroes fight against. Though it’s not a trait that its historical antecedents are known for, the Empire’s sexism can still help the audience engage with and reject the practice, just as the Empire’s other horrors are rejected by the audience. After all, while the Empire seems neat and orderly, it destroyed a planet in the first film in order to accomplish its ends: that example highlights powerfully that order brought at the end of the sword is not a goal worth pursuing. But does Star Wars do the same thing with Imperial misogyny?

The lack of a meaningful engagement with sexism

An invented universe avoids a lot of baggage that the real world has: racism, classism, sexism, and a myriad other problems associated with the lovely things that humans have done to their fellow human. An author has the luxury of inventing from whole cloth an entire history of civilization and society, and can choose whether or not this invented universe has imported the problems of the real world or not. Sometimes these problems leak in, revealing authorial biases or societal biases that are not successfully expunged – such as in Battlestar Galactica, where the military is supposedly egalitarian but women are still treated as if they were the gentler sex. Other times, these problems are intentionally imported into these settings as a way to criticize them in another setting – such as the recent video game Dishonored, which imports the sexism, disease, and grime of the real world Victorian era in order to expose it to the glare of harsh criticism.

Star Wars is an invented universe. It is a universe with a long history and an extensive continuity. The Galactic Empire of the Original Trilogy was preceded by an Old Republic of 25,000 years, which was a sort of idyllic golden age: a blend of the glory days of democratic Athens or Republican Rome with the Arthurian nobility of Camelot. It was an almost unbelievably perfect government – though we now know its history was somewhat marred in its final millennia – which was corrupted into the Galactic Empire. But through this history, we know that Star Wars has no history of sexism on the galactic scale: the Empire decided one day that it wanted to be sexist, with no explanation why. There’s none of the historical baggage of the real world: no legacy of a time where men were hunters, conquerors, or knights and women were merely homemakers. In the Old Republic, men and women were equal.

Where did it come from? Nobody knows – and the sources are silent. There’s a missed opportunity. The anti-alienism of the Empire doesn’t suffer the same deficit: the Clone Wars products show the origins and rise of Imperial anti-alienism, numerous books and novels discuss its dark nature and the problematic consequences contained therein. The Rebellion often defines itself against the anti-alienism of the Empire, as its literal success is owed to its diversity: even within the films we see that the Rebellion owes its victory to the Bothans and the Mon Calamari. Yet while the films show a stark lack of females among the Imperial ranks, the material is surprisingly sparse on the matter. Do we see the Rebels championing gender equality and framing their success to their gender inclusiveness? No – the only real engagement with Imperial sexism is through Imperial characters themselves.

Here we find the real problem. There are precious few prominent female Imperial characters – this makes sense in light of the misogyny attested in the Imperial command structure and New Order ideology, but the EU deals with them in a poor manner indeed. While there is substantial evidence that female Imperials are plentiful in the lower and middle ranks of the Empire, high-ranking examples are relatively rare – and most are relegated to obscure references in sourcebooks. As villains, Imperial characters are given much less development than those in the Rebellion or New Republic, but it’s rather telling how the small handful of female Imperials prominent in the EU are treated.

The few Imperial females who are given prominence in the EU are not only uninspiring, but they are downright alarming. The three that come to mind for us are Director Ysanne Isard of Imperial Intelligence, Admiral Natasi Daala of the Imperial Navy, and the soi-disant Moff Leonia Tavira. All three of these characters are alleged to have reached their rank by their sexual liaisons with a prominent male character, and it’s important that these allegations are not only spread throughout the misogynistic Imperial ranks, but also through the perspectives of the “good guys” as well. These characters are also aggressive, impatient, and rather dismal failures – with Tavira being the closest to competence among the three. Their beauty and sexuality is always highlighted in the narrative – it sounds rather alike the worn sexist trope of the power-hungry woman, who is willing to do anything and everything to sate her ambitious desires. It’s not a positive thing at all.

It would have been well and good if the narrative had underscored that the Empire forced these women to act this way to succeed or to survive. It would have been well and good if the narrative underscored that the Empire only allowed such women to succeed. But no such engagement is ever made – and indeed, the implication is that these women succeeded in spite of Imperial sexism and not because of it. There is never a connection between the sexism in the Galactic Empire and these negative character traits exhibited by these women. Instead, we have a rather sexist and misogynistic portrayal of the few female characters to amount to anything in the Galactic Empire – and the few female villains among the saga as a whole. It rather feels like Star Wars is underscoring and endorsing misogyny rather than exposing and demolishing it.

Indeed, the closest thing we get to a positive portrayal of an Imperial as a female character who earns the respect of male characters is Mara Jade as the Emperor’s Hand: and she’s a character whose creator explained was a good guy the whole time. It’s understandable that Star Wars doesn’t want to elevate its villains, but Star Wars’ male villains are not treated in a stereotypically dismissive fashion: why are its female villains?

Conclusion: the Empire can be sexist, but Star Wars should not be

Sexism in invented universes should have a purpose. Otherwise, it reflects an invasion of undesirable and unwanted real life issues into a fictional setting. If Star Wars is escapism, why can’t we escape the negative traits of our own society in this setting? And if we can’t escape them, can we at least engage with them in a constructive fashion?

We can only hope that as Disney-owned Star Wars revisits the Galactic Empire in the future – particularly in the television series Rebels – Imperial female characters are given their due. Ideally, the Empire would not be sexist at all because it doesn’t make much in-universe sense. But if it had to be, we hope that the show actually engages with the theme. We underline this show in particular because its premise is geared around showing how people live under the Empire: how they are at first wooed by its opportunity and stability, but are then forced to rebel against it. Among the anti-Jedi, anti-alien, and anti-democratic tendencies of the Empire, we hope the show also examines its anti-women policies and we hope the show shows them to be wrong, either by showcasing the cost it has on women or by showcasing positive examples of women who are not given their due by the Imperial regime.
The much touched upon but seldom (AFAIK) questioned sexism in the Galactic Empire never made much sense to me, and I believe it arose mostly because brainbug-addled EU authors wanted to make the Empire as evil as possible without ever really stopping to think about it. The Republic-turned-Empire was a technologically-advanced civilization that existed for tens of thousands of years, and yet readers are supposed to believe they're less progressive than modern-day first-world nations? And all because of what, the Imperials in the OT being nothing but a bunch of white British guys? The Rebels in the films were hardly better, yet you didn't see anyone claiming the Rebellion is sexist too. (So the movies had Princess Leia and Mon Mothma, big deal. Show me some onscreen female rebel pilots, officers and troopers if you want to claim the Rebels were some kind of bastion of equality against the chauvinist empire. Having nothing but one or two token females, or minorities, or anything, even in positions of authority, only makes the utter lack of representation in the rest of the organization all the more jarring)

And indeed, the EU did at least somewhat try to correct the latter by retconning in female Rebels, albeit with varying degrees of success. But of course, the Imperial Navy must be sexist, and not have female personnel unless they're sleeping with a male patron like Daala or inheriting their position from their father like Isard, because they're an oppressive dictatorship with Nazi undertones, and any such organization clearly must want to reverse thousands of years worth of social progress the moment they come into power because they're evil, regardless of how much it violates simple common sense. I'm pretty sure this line of thinking first came about with the Jedi Academy Trilogy and the introduction of Daala. I could be wrong, but if I'm not it's yet another thing to blame Kevin J. Anderson on. (It'd certainly fit right in along with his "the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire" and "IG-88 took over the second Death Star")

The article's final paragraph is rather prescient, as the new EU continuity seems to be taking advantage of the fresh start it's been given and making at least some effort to do away with that old baggage by both including female Imperials the current storyline and retconning them into the OT, something I'm grateful for. And The Force Awakens prominently has Captain Phasma, though I certainly hope she isn't the only female First Order member seen in the movie, lest she simply be an Imperial version of Leia or Mon Mothma's tokenism.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 09:39am
by Grumman
Benny the Ball wrote:The Rebels in the films were hardly better, yet you didn't see anyone claiming the Rebellion is sexist too. (So the movies had Princess Leia and Mon Mothma, big deal. Show me some onscreen female rebel pilots, officers and troopers if you want to claim the Rebels were some kind of bastion of equality against the chauvinist empire. Having nothing but one or two token females, or minorities, or anything, even in positions of authority, only makes the utter lack of representation in the rest of the organization all the more jarring)
I'm all for getting more female fighters in my sci-fi but there is at least a logical explanation for what you just noted, even if it works against my preferences: if the Imperial military does not allow women into combat roles (and that's hardly an alien idea at the time the movies were made), then that means that anyone who joins the Imperial military and then goes AWOL to join the Rebels - either because they are disillusioned with the Empire and its goals or because the Imperial Academy is the best way for a Rebel sympathiser to learn how to be a soldier or a fighter pilot - is going to be a man. You can't have a woman follow the path Biggs Darklighter took to become a Rebel fighter pilot unless the Imperials let her become an Imperial fighter pilot first.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 10:24am
by Kingmaker
Sure, but it can't possibly be that all (or even most) Rebel pilots are Imperial deserters. Some will be civilian pilots who made a career change, and at least some will be directly recruited and trained by the Rebel military.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 10:44am
by Elheru Aran
Kingmaker wrote:Sure, but it can't possibly be that all (or even most) Rebel pilots are Imperial deserters. Some will be civilian pilots who made a career change, and at least some will be directly recruited and trained by the Rebel military.
Case in point: Luke Skywalker himself. Corran Horn also wasn't Imperial military, he came from the paramilitary Corellian Security Force. In the Rogue and Wraith Squadron books, a number of the pilots don't have past military experience before they joined the Rebellion.

It's notable that the 'better' pilots mostly do come from the Imperial military though, like Tycho Celchu, Wedge Antilles, Hobbie Klivian, and so forth. Not particularly surprising as prior experience would benefit them in their career with the Rebellion/Republic.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 12:01pm
by Crazedwraith
Wedge was never an imperial as far as I recall. He went from his family fuel station to hanging out with Booster Terrick's smugglers to the Rebellion. First freighters then fighters iirc. One of his first combat actions was vaping an Imperial one was partially responsible for his parent's deaths again I think.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 12:36pm
by Joun_Lord
The "no gurls allowed" thing from the old EU was pretty stupid as was the whole white men only thing some EU seemed to imply the Empire was only. It doesn't make a whole hell of alot of sense for a galaxy incredibly far removed from our own society with literal aliens running about to share the same sort of real world prejudices of groups like the KKK or the Nazis. Any racism on the part of the Empire should be organic. Real world racism usually stems from long existing attitudes, in the old EU or the movie verse there never seemed to be any history of society in general treating women differently, skin color racism, or hell not even that much "pro-human" garbage from what I recall.

But for some reason the Empire just suddenly turns into a white human male only club. The anti-alien attitude can be explained as distrust after the mainly alien Separatists cut a swath of destruction across the galaxy much the same as why there might be a distrust of droids after the legions of battle droids did battle droids things. Nothing to explain the sexist or racist attitudes.

Clearly its the result of out of universe attitudes and terrible, terrible authors. Shit authors see a concept and run with it with no real thought put into it. Its the same thing that results in Trek "Planet of Hats" deal where all Klingons are honor obsessed warriors, all Ferengi are greedy racist as fuck Jewish stereotypes (which I'm probably racist for noticing), and all Vulcans are emotionless logic obsessed dudes with the same haircut. We only see white British dudes as Imperial in ANH, therefore ALL Imperials are white British dudes. One Imperial sounded vaguely "speciest" towards Chewie, therefore all are racist towards aliens.

Even the "droid mistrust" thing that was thought to be common was the result of one guy acting like a cunt towards Threepio coming into his bar (and I still maintain it wasn't because he hated droids, its because droids don't drink). Didn't stop the EU from running with it and making up some backstory about how the bartender Wuher hated droids because he was a dick but also a pussy who didn't want to offend, ran into Aurra Sing as a kid, one of his most popular drinks was Blue Milk, knew Mirax Terrik, used Greedo's corpse to make a drink for Jabba and found an appreciation for droids in the process. All that about some guy who has like 20 seconds of screen time and two or so lines but he has a whole fucking stupid as shit, gotta connect as many fucking dots as fucking possible because we are hack ass writers who never learned to do any shit original and will base a galaxy wide attitude of droid hate on this one fucking guy because fuck you.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah, women in the Empire. Shits stupid as fuck. One thing the new and defintely not improved EU and the new movie actually seems to be doing right is showing there are female Imperials including female stormtroopers and judging by Phasma female stormtroopers wear identical armor without the stupid boob cups (Phasma does look different but not because she is a girl but because she is no doubt a badass, her gender is completely irrelevant).

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 01:02pm
by Galvatron
The new EU has really feminized the Empire as well, what with Admiral Rae Sloane being one of the most prominent of the new Imperials with a character development arc that spans several novels set many years apart.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 04:08pm
by Andy Wylde
Yeah I always hated what the Legends EU did with how they went about making the Imperials and what not. If we look at the films the Empire we see is all white males. But how much do we really see of the Empire anyway? We never see any storm troopers with out their helmets off. So we could chalk it up to there being some females and non white males and possibly alien species. I do realize that may be a stretch but since we never see them without their helmets off, who is to say is exactly under those helmets?

The Empire is so huge that it would be dumb to think that Women wouldn't be apart of it in some capacity. We only see some Imperial officers throughout all 3 movies and they are all males. We do see the bridge of the Executor and that is all that we do see. That ship alone was pretty massive, so there could have been many different people on it. This is just looking at things from a perspective of "just cause you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there" Because the films for me is what matters first and foremost. I never really cared about the EU whether it was canon or not. So I never subscribed to the whole Imperial organization being anti-female, droid, alien etc. It was never stated in the films so for me that is what matters.

If we look at Palpatine's rise to power in the senate, his two advisors when he was chancellor were alien. Mas Amedda was the blue alien guy that also was on to the fact that he was working with a Sith lord when Sidious blasted Yoda with force lightning in the senate chambers. And he also had Sly Moore as his female alien assistant. She had the ability to manipulate others minds. So as we can see that before that beginning of the Empire that Palpatine was fine with having other beings in his circles. Now in rebels we have Inquisitors that are non human. So I never bought into that whole ideology that the EU seem to run with. The original movies were one thing. It showed mostly military action. Not that alone really means much, but it is what it is,

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 04:15pm
by Galvatron
The prequels (and then TCW) really made the old EU obsolete. They tried for a long time to reconcile it all, but decanonizing all of it was a good thing whether we got new movies or not.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 04:50pm
by Adam Reynolds
Even when armies become truly egalitarian and allow female soldiers to freely serve in every possible role, it will be unlikely to have true equality in numbers. Even after close to a decade of allowing women in, the US Army's fairly elite(though not to the degree of Ranger school) Sapper school only has just under 10% women. And I doubt that would really change all that much with time.

There really is a significant strength difference between men and women, on average. While this is not to say individuals can't be exceptions, on average, women have around 60% of the strength of men. When it comes to designing a military, which has to operate on a philosophy of designing itself based on averages, it makes a degree of sense to focus on recruiting men.

This obviously doesn't matter when said women are things like Jedi or fighter pilots, in which natural strength isn't really much of an issue. In the context of Star Wars, in which there are also threats like Wookies that have as much strength as a guerrilla or droid generals that can throw around a Jedi like a rag doll, it perhaps matters less. But this is not to say it has no impact or that it means as many women as men will be involved in fields that require physical ability.

As for the EU, it was indeed crap. While it is currently too early to judge if this will eventually become a factor, Joun_Lord does note an area in which the new EU is absolutely better. That of not making random one off characters suddenly important. At least we don't currently have Rebel infiltrator ice cream man on Cloud City. There was actually a character that was an extra in the background on Cloud City who was holding an ice cream maker as a prop. In the EU he was made into a secret Rebel agent on some important mission. Likewise, a random woman in the background on Tatooine was also a Rebel agent. Too bad she wasn't able to help Luke and company. The same thing was done in The Phantom Meance with Jedi Master Quinlan Vos. He was on Tatooine and saw Qui-Gon but assumed he was undercover for a reason. Though given that Vos is mentioned in ROTS and still appears in Clone Wars with the same appearance as the Tatooine extra, it might still be canon.
Galvatron wrote:The new EU has really feminized the Empire as well, what with Admiral Rae Sloane being one of the most prominent of the new Imperials with a character development arc that spans several novels set many years apart.
The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.

It also portrays a more diverse group of Rebel soldiers than we saw in the films(both mixed gender and mixed species). Though there actually was apparently a female solider on the commando team on Endor. She was played by Leia's stunt double. If you look closely there was also a female pilot over Endor whose lines were redubbed as male. In universe, it could be a thing done by radio systems. Which also explains never hearing female stormtrooper voices.

If you look closely in the TFA trailer, it also shows female officers on the bridge of Kylo Ren's ship.
Galvatron wrote:The prequels (and then TCW) really made the old EU obsolete. They tried for a long time to reconcile it all, but decanonizing all of it was a good thing whether we got new movies or not.
Indeed. The house of cards had to come crashing down eventually. I only hope they keep the style of the old EU of not really infringing upon the movies so that I don't have to bother with the new one. Even if parts of it are actually quite good, I don't want to have to bother with reading those that aren't.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 05:53pm
by Galvatron
Adam Reynolds wrote:The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.
Maybe, but doesn't that conflict with Leia's "short for a stormtrooper" line from ANH? Is Mark Hamill really so short that even the female troopers are taller than him? :lol:

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 06:04pm
by Elheru Aran
Crazedwraith wrote:Wedge was never an imperial as far as I recall. He went from his family fuel station to hanging out with Booster Terrick's smugglers to the Rebellion. First freighters then fighters iirc. One of his first combat actions was vaping an Imperial one was partially responsible for his parent's deaths again I think.
Derp. You're right. For some reason I was pretty sure he'd done some military service before joining the Rebels. Corellian, maybe? I doubt it though because I would think it'd have come up in relation to Corran.

Not that important though. The whole 'Imperials defect to Rebel military' thing got flogged quite enough as it was.

There's at least one female Rebel trooper on Hoth, IIRC, in the sensor/communications suite, if not a couple. I also vaguely recall that perhaps one or two of the troopers who went down to Endor were female, but I'll be damned if I remember for sure. Anyway, I don't find it a *huge* issue. The EU did have a number of female Rebel/Republic soldiers/pilots, most notably the Rogue Squadron/Wraith Squad books from what I remember. It's not like they didn't exist, they just weren't very common. Kinda like how it is with a lot of militaries, actually. What's the real-world male-female ratio in, say, the US? China? Etc? That might be interesting for a point of comparison...

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 06:05pm
by Elheru Aran
Galvatron wrote:
Adam Reynolds wrote:The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.
Maybe, but doesn't that conflict with Leia's "short for a stormtrooper" line from ANH? Is Mark Hamill really so short that even the female troopers are taller than him? :lol:
I always saw that as her being flippantly defiant rather than any actual observation of fact... he's not that tall but I think he's about low average, what, 5-10 or 5-9?

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 06:26pm
by Joun_Lord
Andy Wylde wrote:The Empire is so huge that it would be dumb to think that Women wouldn't be apart of it in some capacity. We only see some Imperial officers throughout all 3 movies and they are all males. We do see the bridge of the Executor and that is all that we do see. That ship alone was pretty massive, so there could have been many different people on it. This is just looking at things from a perspective of "just cause you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there" Because the films for me is what matters first and foremost. I never really cared about the EU whether it was canon or not. So I never subscribed to the whole Imperial organization being anti-female, droid, alien etc. It was never stated in the films so for me that is what matters.
That actually reminds me a bit of something someone here awhile bach went on about, how if we apply the same "just whats on the screen" logic to the Rebellion it doesn't look much better then the Empire. In ANH the Rebel Scum were all other then Leia white presumably British dudes. No people of color, no women other then the Princess, the only alien who fought for them was denied a freaking medal. Goddamn space racists keeping the Wookiee down.

ESB its little better, there are a few more women but still predominately white human men. They're so freaking white they build their space base in the snow and so masculine they live up to the stereotype of being a bunch of basement dwellers with their underground base.

The only time they actually show a diverse group is during ROTJ when Mom Mothman and Admiral Ackbar show up. But even then its mostly white dudes. All the fighter pilots, white guys (I know there were female pilots cut from the movie though). All the ground troops, white guys. Other then the separate but equal ship full of token fish people, the token black guy paired up with the token vagina faced alien, the lady leader, and I think maybe a token asian, its was whiter then a pillow fight between stormtroopers and Klansmen. Clearly if we extrapolate whats on screen the same as was done with the Imperials it makes them look pretty bad too.

If the Rebel Alliance hadn't been the "good guys" you fracking know the EU authors would have made them a bunch of space racists too. Hell I think they might have done so, I remember some bit about an anti-human alien alliance during the post-ROTJ era who accused the New Republic of being human-centric space racists.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 07:20pm
by Andy Wylde
[quote="Joun_Lord
That actually reminds me a bit of something someone here awhile bach went on about, how if we apply the same "just whats on the screen" logic to the Rebellion it doesn't look much better then the Empire. In ANH the Rebel Scum were all other then Leia white presumably British dudes. No people of color, no women other then the Princess, the only alien who fought for them was denied a freaking medal. Goddamn space racists keeping the Wookiee down.

ESB its little better, there are a few more women but still predominately white human men. They're so freaking white they build their space base in the snow and so masculine they live up to the stereotype of being a bunch of basement dwellers with their underground base.

The only time they actually show a diverse group is during ROTJ when Mom Mothman and Admiral Ackbar show up. But even then its mostly white dudes. All the fighter pilots, white guys (I know there were female pilots cut from the movie though). All the ground troops, white guys. Other then the separate but equal ship full of token fish people, the token black guy paired up with the token vagina faced alien, the lady leader, and I think maybe a token asian, its was whiter then a pillow fight between stormtroopers and Klansmen. Clearly if we extrapolate whats on screen the same as was done with the Imperials it makes them look pretty bad too.

If the Rebel Alliance hadn't been the "good guys" you fracking know the EU authors would have made them a bunch of space racists too. Hell I think they might have done so, I remember some bit about an anti-human alien alliance during the post-ROTJ era who accused the New Republic of being human-centric space racists.

"its whiter then a pillow fight between stormtroopers and Klansmen" LOL! That was funny! But yes I agree with you. But for the cast in the movies I believe in ANH most of the cast were people that lived in Britain during the time of shooting? I may be wrong there. I know for the battle of Hoth they used extras from the Norwegian area they were filming at. Those Rebel soldiers in the snow were just people from Norway. But as the movies went on it got more diverse and seems to be continuing that trend which is good. I always hated the EU's take on the GFFA. The way they made the Empire. I know they are evil, but c'mon, with all this anti this and that it became ridiculous after awhile. That is why I couldn't deal with it anymore. Well lots of other reasons too. But that was one of the many reasons I gave up on the EU.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 08:23pm
by Adam Reynolds
Elheru Aran wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
Adam Reynolds wrote:The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.
Maybe, but doesn't that conflict with Leia's "short for a stormtrooper" line from ANH? Is Mark Hamill really so short that even the female troopers are taller than him? :lol:
I always saw that as her being flippantly defiant rather than any actual observation of fact... he's not that tall but I think he's about low average, what, 5-10 or 5-9?
The old EU indeed claimed this, no idea on the current canon. Though I suspect at least a few stormtrooper extras had to be as short as he was. Unless the spesifically cast tall actors, which wouldn't seem to have much point. The only logical reason would have been going for the clones idea, but that likely came after.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-15 09:47pm
by Simon_Jester
Galvatron wrote:
Adam Reynolds wrote:The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.
Maybe, but doesn't that conflict with Leia's "short for a stormtrooper" line from ANH? Is Mark Hamill really so short that even the female troopers are taller than him? :lol:
Maybe the female troopers are cloned from a template which happens to be physically large and athletic? Maybe the height requirements for stormtroopers are unisex?

Maybe the height requirements for stormtroopers in a detention block are unisex and exclude a lot of average-sized females, because the stormtroopers have to be physically capable of restraining prisoners, including a variety of rather nasty alien species. Even given that you're not going to find many troopers capable of wrestling Wookiees, you definitely don't want stormtroopers who don't have the mass and strength to subdue prisoners equivalent to a physically fit human male.

Whereas for stormtroopers whose job is to storm Rebel bunkers and kill random ice-monsters and Ewoks, this might not be an issue, because they aren't as likely to have to physically beat someone up with their bare gauntleted hands.

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-16 12:03am
by Lord Revan
Simon_Jester wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
Adam Reynolds wrote:The new Battlefront novel(and I presume the game) even implies that some of the soldiers under the white armor are female. Perhaps even some of those we saw in the original films.
Maybe, but doesn't that conflict with Leia's "short for a stormtrooper" line from ANH? Is Mark Hamill really so short that even the female troopers are taller than him? :lol:
Maybe the female troopers are cloned from a template which happens to be physically large and athletic? Maybe the height requirements for stormtroopers are unisex?

Maybe the height requirements for stormtroopers in a detention block are unisex and exclude a lot of average-sized females, because the stormtroopers have to be physically capable of restraining prisoners, including a variety of rather nasty alien species. Even given that you're not going to find many troopers capable of wrestling Wookiees, you definitely don't want stormtroopers who don't have the mass and strength to subdue prisoners equivalent to a physically fit human male.

Whereas for stormtroopers whose job is to storm Rebel bunkers and kill random ice-monsters and Ewoks, this might not be an issue, because they aren't as likely to have to physically beat someone up with their bare gauntleted hands.
that would make sense and then there's the imidation factor to consider too, most prisoners would be humans or human sized aliens (simply as majority of the population falls under that category) having guards that are at least the size of average human male if not taller there would be less reactions "I can take them" then you'd have with shorter troopers.

Lets take Captain Phasma for example who as far as I know shares gender with the actor playing that character but is 6'3'' and fairly atheletic, so it likely that your average prisoner would leave said trooper (well officer) alone even in the base armor and special chrome armor worn in the movie (yes I went out of my way to not use personal pronouns there since I don't think Phasma's gender is confirmed only assumed to be same as the actor's)

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-16 12:28am
by Simon_Jester
Gwendoline Christie's been interviewed describing Phasma as a woman, so I'm going to assume that unless it's an elaborate and pointless double-blind, she's a female character.

So yeah, that's in play. Or, Luke may simply be not that short for a stormtrooper, and Leia is just so unbreakable she'd have sassed any stormtrooper walking into the cell. Perhaps on the assumption that a short male stormtrooper is more common than a female one, which is actually in keeping with real life infantry (a lot of infantry are short wiry men, believe it or not)

Re: Senseless Sexism in the Galactic Empire

Posted: 2015-12-16 02:13am
by Lord Revan
Simon_Jester wrote:Gwendoline Christie's been interviewed describing Phasma as a woman, so I'm going to assume that unless it's an elaborate and pointless double-blind, she's a female character.

So yeah, that's in play. Or, Luke may simply be not that short for a stormtrooper, and Leia is just so unbreakable she'd have sassed any stormtrooper walking into the cell. Perhaps on the assumption that a short male stormtrooper is more common than a female one, which is actually in keeping with real life infantry (a lot of infantry are short wiry men, believe it or not)
I'm ex-military (not that it's so odd for a finnish man of my age) so I'm more familiar with how modern soldier actually look opposed to how action movies depict(ed) them.

As for Phasma I didn't know about that so it seems like an official confirmation, granted it was pretty clear to begin with after all why hire Gwengoline Christie to play a male character it's not like men of her height are hard to find.

still even if Phasma is a woman my point stands (especially since the basic stormtrooper armor seems unisex so unless she opened her mouth you couldn't tell the gender in full armor), most persons would think twice before attacking a 190 cm profession soldier while being themselves unarmed.