StarDestroyer.Net BBS

There are a few starfighters in Star Wars that have various wings/foils as part of their design. In particular, the various iterations of the TIE series, (fighters, interceptors, bombers, etc), have those large panels with black areas on them. many sources refer to these as "solar panels", but this explanation is so utterly stupid that I almost wretch whenever I read it or hear someone else saying it. Why do you think this idea is so prevalent and/or why was this presented as the explanation for these design elements?

Personally, (and I take no credit for coming up with this explanation), but those elements being some sort of radiator or way of dumping waste heat just makes more sense...

I suggest you examine the origins of the concept. It wouldn't surprise me if it stems from some offhand comment by Lucas at a con or whatever, and the writers just shrugged and went "yeah, sure, let's go with that" because in the 80s solar panels were still a pretty exotic, niche technology that wasn't very common and seemed appropriately futuristic.

There's a few ways to rationalize it. Either the TIE's are separately powered from the solar panels and the panels just provide excess energy; Star Wars solar-energy technology is sufficiently advanced that they can power a starfighter with some solar panels; they're actually radiators but they're just called 'solar panels' for whatever bullshit reason; and so forth...

Elheru Aran wrote:I suggest you examine the origins of the concept. It wouldn't surprise me if it stems from some offhand comment by Lucas at a con or whatever, and the writers just shrugged and went "yeah, sure, let's go with that" because in the 80s solar panels were still a pretty exotic, niche technology that wasn't very common and seemed appropriately futuristic.

There's a few ways to rationalize it. Either the TIE's are separately powered from the solar panels and the panels just provide excess energy; Star Wars solar-energy technology is sufficiently advanced that they can power a starfighter with some solar panels; they're actually radiators but they're just called 'solar panels' for whatever bullshit reason; and so forth...

Some people have done calculations on how much energy a typical star puts out, and if you take the surface area of the wings, there just isn't enough energy coming in to provide anything meaningful - you'd be lucky if you can get 1 extra shot with the lasers, for example. I do appreciate your insight, however.

Yeah, honestly, a LOT of the shittier aspects of the EU stem directly from lousy West End Games writers who couldn't put facts together for beans. That material was then religiously transferred into the canon whenever someone needed exact numbers or data. I mean, I give Lucas Licensing a lot of credit for being strongly consistent... but did they have to be consistent about THAT stuff? *sigh*

They look like solar panels, and I suspect a lot of readers and viewers call them solar panels simply because they look more like solar panels than like anything else in our experience today.

Elheru Aran wrote:they're actually radiators but they're just called 'solar panels' for whatever bullshit reason;

That actually sounds at least moderately plausible to me — I never really thought the "solar panel" label was a good fit for what they looked like.

From a purely logical standpoint, they can't be a means of power generation, since the TIE Interceptor is supposed to be faster and more powerful despite having a smaller "panel" area than the basic TIE Fighter.

I think the "solar panel" idea has traction because most people have no idea what a radiator panel even IS. I was talking to a guy in my 300 level engineering classes the other day (not mentioning this to brag, but to point out that I'm talking about a person with some degree of STEM knowledge) and he apparently didn't know that the ISS has thermal radiator panels in addition to solar panels.

And yes, the solar panel idea is stupid. Panels that size could . . . huh, well, I guess if we assume that Star Wars photovoltaics are substantially better than ours and that their electronics are more efficient, a panel that size in earth-orbit sunlight might be able to run the TIE's avionics and communications suite--you know, keep the computer on and run a low-powered radio beacon when main power is dead.

The 'solar panel' idea got traction because that's what they were called in the EU way back when and most of the fanbase didn't know how ridiculous the idea was (same as, apparently, the writers). I DO find it moderately depressing the idea apparently bled over into the 'new' EU (at least of the TFA ICS is any indication).

Maybe they envisioned a lot of fighting near sci-fi powerful stars?

biostem wrote:There are a few starfighters in Star Wars that have various wings/foils as part of their design. In particular, the various iterations of the TIE series, (fighters, interceptors, bombers, etc), have those large panels with black areas on them. many sources refer to these as "solar panels", but this explanation is so utterly stupid that I almost wretch whenever I read it or hear someone else saying it. Why do you think this idea is so prevalent and/or why was this presented as the explanation for these design elements?

Personally, (and I take no credit for coming up with this explanation), but those elements being some sort of radiator or way of dumping waste heat just makes more sense...

Two answers:

1. Out of Universe (Doylian) Because the calcs have gotten rattled up in your brain. No one making the movie (the solar panel description comes from the script and development of the movie, folks, not WEG) bothered to think about how fast the ships would be and how that would impact their power supply. As far as they're concerned, a few kilowatts would be more than enough to fly around and puncture other ships. They just looked at contemporary satellites, saw they had solar panels went 'that's cool, our realistic space fighter should have those' and presto.

EXT. SURFACE OF THE DEATH STAR

Three TIE fighters, Vader flanked by two wingmen, dive in a tight formation. The sun reflects off their dominate solar fins as they loop toward the Death Star's surface.

INT. RED LEADER'S COCKPIT

Red Leader pulls his targeting device in front of his eyes and makes several adjustments.

RED LEADER
I'm in range.

[...]

EXT. DEATH STAR TRENCH

Vader's wingman panics at the sight of the oncoming pirate starship and veers radically to one side, colliding with Vader's TIE fighter in the process. Vader's wingman crashes into the side wall of the trench and explodes. Vader's damaged ship spins out of the trench with a damaged wing.

EXT. SPACE AROUND THE DEATH STAR

Vader's ship spins out of control with a bent solar fin, heading for deep space.

Lucas is well known for being a director who wants more, faster, faster, faster even when he was doing THX-1138 and American Graffiti both of which have fast chases. He didn't sit there with a slide rule and work out what the proper acceleration for a solar-powered fighter would be and how much energy should be in its lasers, he just went 'solar panels are cool.'

2. In Universe (Watsonian) Solar is something different in meaning. I like to think it is a brand name. For instance, the powerplant of a Star Destroyer is a Solar Ionization Reactor, and a hypermatter reactor, depending on the writer. Solar is the brand name, Ionization is the model, and it's actually a hypermatter reactor.

The things on TIE fighters and Actis Interceptors were invented by this unknown 'Solar' Company years ago, and are Solar-company neutrino-radiator panels, known ironically as solar panels. This is bullshit. But if it's genuinely ruining your enjoyment of the TIE figher that they have solar panels, have fun. (Welcome to the pain of anyone who likes Eldar starships which can spin around on a dime and accellerate multiple thousand gravities on... solar sails.)

Bonus round: did you know in the script, the rebel blockade runner is also solar powered?

It is pursed by a giant Imperial Stardestroyer. Hundreds of deadly laserbolts streak from the Imperial Stardestroyer, causing the main solar fin of the Rebel craft to disintegrate.

INT. REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER - MAIN PASSAGEWAY

An explosion rocks the ship as two robots, Artoo-Detoo (R2-D2) and See-Threepio (C-3PO) struggle to make their way through the shaking, bouncing passageway. Both robots are old and battered. Artoo is a short, claw-armed tripod. His face is a mass of computer lights surrounding a radar eye. Threepio, on the other hand, is a tall, slender robot of human proportions. He has a gleaming bronze-like metallic surface of an Art Deco design.

Another blast shakes them as they struggle along their way.

THREEPIO
Did you hear that? They've shut down the main reactor. We'll be destroyed for sure. This is madness!

Sure, it says reactor, but the original idea was to have it be a big solar panel that was shot off.

Here's a blog showing off the development of the Pirate Ship(Falcon) and the Blockade Runner, showing an early version with tiny aft fins. It also shows where they got the basic TIE shape from, a stainless steel rat cover.

Gandalf wrote:Maybe they envisioned a lot of fighting near sci-fi powerful stars?

It would be interesting to imagine that TIE patrols always include a close circuit of a star to re-charge their batteries in a region where solar-flux is extremely high. I doubt the math would work, but it would be cool, somewhat like the Destiny on Stargate.

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Another example of this is the Starkiller base in TFA and the novelization, quotes of which have been posted by Vympel elsewhere. Alan Dean Foster knows full well that a star doesn't generate the energy required to scatter the mass of a planet (if nothing else he's almost certainly read EE Doc Smith's lensmen series where the calculations are actually in the text about how much enegy is in a sunbeam - a weapon using one half the emissions of a star - hitting a planet) and writes an elaborate technobabble chain-reaction thing for how the Starkiller actually works. The film's writers almost certainly don't, however, care or know about how grossly insufficient a star's power actually is for this task.

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Also if you want to disprove the idea that they're simply solar powered; they have no difficulty operating in TFA when the star's going out.

I am inclined to go with Zeropoint on this. I always assumed that the "solar panels" were some sort of emergency system meant to power the ships life support until it could be picked up. For a fighter that has no native FTL capability that would make a lot of sense.

As an aside it occurs to me that if one wanted to give a definition that isn't what Dr Saxton calls 'unphysical' (the excellent way he dismisses the actual solar panels idea) that still has the panels related to power generation, one could perhaps suggest the power is broadcast from the mother-ship and the panels collect it; that would fit nicely with Obi Wan immediately knowing that the ship is a 'short range' craft, explain why the TIE uses less volume than an X-wing, and even explain why the only time we see one operating away from its mothership in the films it's tumbling end over end (Vader's, after the destruction of the Death Star) though that doesn't really need an additional explanation.

Obi-Wan and Anakin flying slowly over a Venator in Episode 3 could even be Anakin trying to ensure their tanks are fully topped up.

A hypothetical, not supported by the canon, mind you.

Vader's fighter is last seen speeding away in normal flight. Also its way bigger and at least in the old canon had a hyperdrive. The radiator explanation which can also explain random moving parts on Rebel and Republican fighters works so much better then anything else.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Vader's fighter is last seen speeding away in normal flight.

So it is. Huh.

Also its way bigger and at least in the old canon had a hyperdrive. The radiator explanation which can also explain random moving parts on Rebel and Republican fighters works so much better then anything else.

Well that was clearly a counterfactual suggestion a 'If you were completely remaking the universe and wanted an explanation' not a 'this is a valid fit for the evidence currently displayed.'

In reality, they're going to keep reprinting the 'solar panels' nonsense and the 25,000 star destroyers and all the other things that make people like us grind our teeth, simply because they're accessible to most readers, simply because most people start boggling if you try to explain that the Confederacy of Independent Systems had quadrillions of battle droids.

From what I recall, the OT ICS showed the TIE having a small fuel tank to power it's engines, so maybe they are actually solar panels (at least in part) that provide just enough power to activate or energise the fuel or something and that then does the rest. It would explain why the TIE has such large panels, they need to be that big to provide a minimum charge.

The ICS did also show lots of tubes running through the panels on both the ordinary TIE and Vader's fighter which looked awfully like coolant tubes in an actual radiator. So maybe the panels are both.

They obviously can't be solar panels; the TIE Advanced prototype shown in Rebels only has the black paneling on the interior surface of the wings, where the star would shine the least, while the exterior surface is the same gray as the rest of the hull.

I may not be a scientist, but if superman is any indication I'm sure a solar panel the size of a postage stamp, inside the cockpit and being exposed to a plug in electric uv lamp, could power the Millennium Falcon.

I mean, they still say lightspeed too. And dookoo's ship in Clones had a solar sail, although I guess he's rich so it's just a status thing, and he has a robot who drives his ship anyway.

I guess if you asked anyone working on this film they would probably just say that this is a magical universe where solar panels can do these things

Edit: whoops. I didn't mean to post this yet

Given that the superweapon beam in The Force Awakens apparently makes light travel faster then the speed of light in a radial fashion relative to its direction of travel in all reality we have no rational basis to even assume that 'light' in Star Wars even works the same as it does in real life. It might have some super exotic force linked bonus component that really can power starships in deep space....Which might actually fit with how well illuminated all the deep space stuff still is in Star Wars with no stars even remotely close. But that's all incredibly stupid too.

They reprint old stuff because they are lazy and want to save money on writers, not because they think the audience cares or have given even a slight hint that they care about a canon policy at all, the huge swing it already underwent being demonstration of that. The vast majority of the audience would swallow down absolutely anything they print. God we already knew that about the old EU and how much shit was shoveled out even after Lucasfilm tightened up regulation of it.

Could the "solar panel" or "fin" name be simply waved away as some sort of short-hand for what they actually are, in-universe? Do we have examples of that in today's military where certain aspects of vehicles/equipment have bizarre nicknames that have just stuck throughout the years?

Well "tank" springs to mind immediately, since people working on the first ones were told they were water tanks and the name stuck. AFAIK anyway.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Given that the superweapon beam in The Force Awakens apparently makes light travel faster then the speed of light in a radial fashion relative to its direction of travel in all reality we have no rational basis to even assume that 'light' in Star Wars even works the same as it does in real life. It might have some super exotic force linked bonus component that really can power starships in deep space....Which might actually fit with how well illuminated all the deep space stuff still is in Star Wars with no stars even remotely close. But that's all incredibly stupid too.

They reprint old stuff because they are lazy and want to save money on writers, not because they think the audience cares or have given even a slight hint that they care about a canon policy at all, the huge swing it already underwent being demonstration of that. The vast majority of the audience would swallow down absolutely anything they print. God we already knew that about the old EU and how much shit was shoveled out even after Lucasfilm tightened up regulation of it.

Connecting this to The Force would also explain why causality can be violated in Star Wars with FTL travel and precognition.

NecronLord wrote: 2. In Universe (Watsonian) Solar is something different in meaning. I like to think it is a brand name. For instance, the powerplant of a Star Destroyer is a Solar Ionization Reactor, and a hypermatter reactor, depending on the writer. Solar is the brand name, Ionization is the model, and it's actually a hypermatter reactor.

The hypothesis is that "Solar Ionization" is a company, like General Electric or General Atomics.

IF we were to expand that hypothesis to the TIE, we could say that 'Solar Ionization' supplies the TIE's powerplant and the radiator panels were their solution to the volume restrictions the Empire and Sienar put forward. They got nicknamed "solar" panels because they are unique to 'Solar Ionization' powerplants...and as a derogatory because they are...well ugly gaudy obstructions.