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Simple vs, as it says on the title, both flying their customary craft, a T-70 X-wing and a TIE Advanced X-1, engaging each other over a desolate planet; who wins?

Hm. Clone War era Anakin against Poe, my money's on Anakin. Vader, post-cyborg Vader... I dunno, I think Poe might be able to take him.

Poe seems to be the Disney canon's answer to EU Wedge Antilles- the Rebellion's mundane Force-free super-ace, and leader of Rogue Totally Not Rogue Squadron.

If anyone can keep up with a Force-empowered fighter pilot it's going to be him.

When Anakin was in his prime, he had Force power and excellent reflexes. As Vader, he has less of both, although he may have gained in experience and judgment to compensate for the lack.

In the first issue of the Vader Down arc, he single-handedly slaughtered several squadrons of rebel X-wings and even used the Force to deflect an entire salvo of proton torpedoes that were launched against him. If it wasn't for Luke's X-wing colliding with Vader's TIE, Vader may have killed them all.



Poe's an ace, no doubt, but I don't see him defeating Vader. Especially if Vader uses the Force.

Hm.

Well, in my defense I never read that or any other Star Wars comic, and was forming my impressions on the movies and a few old EU novels.

The way I see it... if old-EU Wedge can't keep up with Luke, Poe can't keep up with Vader.

Lord His Dark Awesomeness kills Disney Flyboy.

I mean, that's pretty obvious even if being more serious. Disney Flyboy is not a Force user, and those who can't use the Force in SW are, uh, the redshirts of space fighter combat. Ignore the old EU or acknowledge it, but that's the truth.

Unless Poe Dameron is a secret Jedi. Could explain lots of what happens in TFA, but would also be the lamest plot move at the same time.

Poe is a fantastic pilot- I'd say he could take Vader. I don't think I've ever seen even Vader shoot down fighters at a rate of about one a second like Poe did over Maz's castle.

Yes, Vader has the Force, but that doesn't make him unbeatable to anyone who doesn't. Its an advantage, of course, but its not the be all and end all.

Leaving the old EU out of it, Hera Syndulla in Star Wars Rebels outflew him in a freaking freighter in the episode "Siege of Lothal", outmaneuvering him and tricking him into getting stuck in his own side's tractor beam. And that was an episode that showed Vader at his best (he shot down most of an A wing squadron and disabled a small warship solo shortly before that).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzqT8N3a-pU

Force is the ultimate advantage and I find your lack of faith disturbing. Outrun doesn't mean win.

Eh, like or not, their is an established history in both the films and the EU of people without the Force, at least occasionally, being able to hold their own against those who have it.

Grievous comes to mind. So does Cad Bane from The Clone Wars. Both canon.

Grievous was (1) taught in the Jedi arts by Dooku (2) had four hands and sabers (3) still was a sacrifice article which Obi-Wan cut up rough now.

So... occasionally, yes. In very peculiar circumstances. Bear in mind Vader is "the chosen one", he's like Obi-Wan or Yoda, but with the Dark Side, so he's not a random character to die.

Even discounting Vader's character shield, he could foresee the threat (hell, Luke could do it with a bit of Obi Voodoo!), so how are these blasters are gonna help Poe?

Uh? Nuh?

One of the few places Vader's abilities does not seem to have diminished is in the cockpit. As shown in that previous comic, as well as in a lot of, granted, now discounted EU sources, he was an unbeatable terror in the cockpit. He regularly took on squadrons on his own.

Poe is incredible, yes. But remember his show above Maz's castle was basically an ambush against a force rooted in position. The First Order TIE's were covering a ground force and couldn't break off. The TIE's didn't know he, and the rest of his squadron, were there until they were in weapons range. There is no way Poe on his own will ever get the drop on Vader unless he's able to lure him into an area littered with crates of ysalamiri tied to mag pulse torpedoes. And all this after a big glass jar of raspberry jam has been slammed into Vader's sensor suite.

Moviewise it's very difficult to judge fairly when comparing the special effects limitations of ANH to the ridiculous special effects excesses of TFA.

Going on special effects alone, either poe or just his ship/targeting computer are far superior to Vader's in manueverability and targetting. Also force or no force vader didn't notice han getting the drop on him and still relied heavily on a targetting computer. Wacky EU comics can't really invalidate what we see on screen

Luke trusts the force and turns off his comp, vader wastes time dicking with his targetting computer. And since proton torpedos are unguided I don't know why you would use one in a dogfight. In ANH they didn't want to use ptorpedos because the exhaust port was ray shielded- presumably to block some more effective means of attack.

Proton torpedoes being unguided is stated-where, exactly? In fact, they can't be because otherwise the Death Star attack would have been impossible. That pesky 90 degree turn they had to do to get into the exhaust shaft.

That and they were expressly told they would have to use proton torpedoes because the port was ray shielded. I think you need to go watch the damn films again.

And Han surprising Vader could be explained by Vader focusing almost exclusively on Luke. He seems genuinely surprised and curious when he senses how strong in the Force Luke is, and we know now from Rebels that Vader can eventually ascertain another Force user's identity even from the cockpit.

Speaking of Rebels, Vader 's prowess in the TIE Advanced is put on display. A minor capital ship and a squadron of A-Wings couldn't stop him.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Grievous comes to mind. So does Cad Bane from The Clone Wars. Both canon.

And that was in an era in which the Jedi were severely weakened. Something that does not apply to Vader in a fighter cockpit, the environment that he was naturally at home.

NeoGoomba wrote:And Han surprising Vader could be explained by Vader focusing almost exclusively on Luke. He seems genuinely surprised and curious when he senses how strong in the Force Luke is, and we know now from Rebels that Vader can eventually ascertain another Force user's identity even from the cockpit.

Indeed. The thing that most reliably blocks a Force user's ability to see is another Force user.

Adam Reynolds wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:Grievous comes to mind. So does Cad Bane from The Clone Wars. Both canon.

And that was in an era in which the Jedi were severely weakened. Something that does not apply to Vader in a fighter cockpit, the environment that he was naturally at home.

Okay, so Hera Syndulla from Rebels, again.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Okay, so Hera Syndulla from Rebels, again.

In that battle he was distracted by his former apprentice, in exactly the same fashion he was against Han in ANH.

Not really. Their was no indication he was just focussed on Ashoka when pursuing the Ghost, and they were in direct mental contact very briefly and not at the end of the battle when Hera outmaneuvered him.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That and they were expressly told they would have to use proton torpedoes because the port was ray shielded. I think you need to go watch the damn films again.

I had meant to say they didn't want to use them but were forced to. What I get for posting from my phone I suppose.

Anyway- we only see the torpedos make that 90 degree turn during an instance where they are definitely non-guided, given that luke's targetting computer is off.

If they were guided, I don't see how they would have any difficulty hitting a stationary exhaust port.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Poe is a fantastic pilot- I'd say he could take Vader. I don't think I've ever seen even Vader shoot down fighters at a rate of about one a second like Poe did over Maz's castle.

Yes, Vader has the Force, but that doesn't make him unbeatable to anyone who doesn't. Its an advantage, of course, but its not the be all and end all.

Leaving the old EU out of it, Hera Syndulla in Star Wars Rebels outflew him in a freaking freighter in the episode "Siege of Lothal", outmaneuvering him and tricking him into getting stuck in his own side's tractor beam. And that was an episode that showed Vader at his best (he shot down most of an A wing squadron and disabled a small warship solo shortly before that).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzqT8N3a-pU

If you watch the clip at forty seconds in Vader clearly says, that he wants the crew of the Ghost alive. The Rebels escape not because of a failure on Vader's part, but because the Imperials aboard the ISDs screwed up.

APlayerHater wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That and they were expressly told they would have to use proton torpedoes because the port was ray shielded. I think you need to go watch the damn films again.

I had meant to say they didn't want to use them but were forced to. What I get for posting from my phone I suppose.

Anyway- we only see the torpedos make that 90 degree turn during an instance where they are definitely non-guided, given that luke's targetting computer is off.

If they were guided, I don't see how they would have any difficulty hitting a stationary exhaust port.

Which is why Wedge Antilles thought it to be "impossible even for a computer". With a two-meter-sized target the torpedo could be one-and-a-half meter off and it would still count as a precise shot as far as most kinds of missiles are concerned (and don't tell me you believe in the fairy-tale of surgical strikes and precision killing through "smart" bombs). And that doesn't even account for the heavy jamming going on.

Looking at the scenes from ANH I do not think the torpedoes were guided as much as programmed. That is to say they were programmed to fly for x meters and than make make a 90 degrees turn and that was that. And the whole bombing run was essentially a function of getting the fighter in just the right position to release them at just the right angle, elevation and distance for that pre programed path to take them into the exhaust port.

That would explain the whole targeting computer sequence as well as the "it just impacted on the surface" comment and how Luke was able to do it by hand. And it would also fit well with the whole WW2 theme of the movie as it is perfectly analogous to WW2 era dive bombing. And of course it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do given the prevalence of jamming in the setting.

Jamming is seriously underutilized in movies. People say cell phones make most 70's-80's movie premises obsolete (or at least horror movies) but what if Michael Meyers just happened to carry around some kind of mobile cell phone jammer with him? Nightmarish.

Every time someone in the audience asks "but why don't they just use (technology x that's analogous to what we have today on modern earth)"- they should be interrupted by the main characters saying "we're mired in jam."

Why couldn't luke just call han solo on his car phone from Dagobah? Jamming. -Either that or I guess out of range for those hologram things they had in attack of the clones.

APlayerHater wrote:Jamming is seriously underutilized in movies. People say cell phones make most 70's-80's movie premises obsolete (or at least horror movies) but what if Michael Meyers just happened to carry around some kind of mobile cell phone jammer with him? Nightmarish.

Every time someone in the audience asks "but why don't they just use (technology x that's analogous to what we have today on modern earth)"- they should be interrupted by the main characters saying "we're mired in jam."

Why couldn't luke just call han solo on his car phone from Dagobah? Jamming. -Either that or I guess out of range for those hologram things they had in attack of the clones.

Jaming was a big thing in ROTJ, so they do exist in SW>

Purple wrote:Looking at the scenes from ANH I do not think the torpedoes were guided as much as programmed. That is to say they were programmed to fly for x meters and than make make a 90 degrees turn and that was that. And the whole bombing run was essentially a function of getting the fighter in just the right position to release them at just the right angle, elevation and distance for that pre programed path to take them into the exhaust port.

That would explain the whole targeting computer sequence as well as the "it just impacted on the surface" comment and how Luke was able to do it by hand. And it would also fit well with the whole WW2 theme of the movie as it is perfectly analogous to WW2 era dive bombing. And of course it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do given the prevalence of jamming in the setting.

This is mostly what I figured. I always did question why they didn't just come straight down at it from above, since the DS guns seemed too sluggish to track them very well, but I guess coming straight on they wouldn't have to turn as fast to try to track you, and would just blast you out of the sky (space). On the other hand, being in the trench seriously killed their maneuverability and they seemed to be coming straight at plenty of guns doing that anyway, so who knows. Movie logic.

I had figured they'd somehow dump the torpedo straight down the exhaust port the exact moment they passed over it. I hate to use the phrase "linear momentum" in a sentence, but I guess it wouldn't make sense for the torpedo to stop and then go straight down now that I think about it. It would be like in the trailer for that movie Red that came out a few years ago, where Bruce Willis somehow stepped out of a moving car and it just left him behind; completely stationary.