How will the story progress in EP 8 and 9?

[ray245]

I'm not a big fan of Ep 7 in many ways, but I think one of the most disappointing thing for me is the set-up created by JJ Abrams have left me feeling very underwhelmed by the story direction for EP 8 and 9. I'm not sure if I am fully invested in the character arc for Rey, considering how skilled she is with the force. Nor am I really that invested in Ben Solo's redemption arc. The New Order does not feel like a massive threat because they've never been shown how powerful they were without the Starkiller base.

The empire have already been defeated once in ROTJ, and I am not sure if I am fully invested in the overall conflict in TFA. It's hard to see any possible routes for the story that isn't reminiscent of the OT. What sort of themes will EP 8 and 9 explore that makes it feel different from the OT and the PT? JJ have thrown us tons of question marks in TFA, but I am not sure if answering those question would make a good story. The story so far feels extremely hollow to me.

Ep 4-6 tells us the story of Luke growing as a Jedi and redeeming his father. Ep 1-3 is about the fall of Anakin. I'm not sure what the overall arc for Ep 7-9 is about. Is it about Rey? Is it about Ben? Is it about Luke?

[Elheru Aran]

Too damn early to tell. Hold your water.

[ray245]

Too damn early to tell. Hold your water.

Well it's fun to speculate, possibly before we seen any trailers. Rian Johnson might be able to surprise us, but I don't see how many options he has. He has to explain so many plot threads left dangling in TFA, that there's very little room for him to move around. He has to rebuild the New Order as a credible threat, he has to give us SOME explanation about Rey and Luke, he have to explore the training Kylo Ren is going through and etc and the big "I'm your father" reveal has already been done.

Ep 8 and 9 is already setting up to be movies where they have to explain all these stuff. If I am not interested in the answers, what kind of story is there left to tell? I severely disliked the mystery box approach to story-telling, especially when the pay-off tends to be a disappointment.

[Elheru Aran]

OK, here's what we *know*:

--Rey is with Luke. Whether that means she's going to be trained as a Jedi or not, we don't know. Luke may be all "WTF you didn't return the hand, forget you, I needed that back" and carry on sulking. Or maybe Rey turns smuggler with Chewie. Whatever.

--Finn is in a coma (or similar condition). Presumably he will wake up and have adventures. We don't know.

--Kylo Ren is wounded, but alive. Beyond that? Who knows.

--Hux is (presumably) alive. Possibly he will command some sort of First Order unit again. Perhaps he will be expelled in disgrace. Who the hell knows.

--Snoke is still out there and in charge of the First Order. Likewise, Leia is a presence in the Resistance, but again, who knows what's going to happen.

Frankly, the whole future is one huge question mark. There's not a whole lot of concrete stuff left to us at the ending of TFA. This is actually not too dissimilar to how ANH ended, rather deliberately I suspect. It wraps the film up neatly enough, but there's enough characters left that you can keep the story going if you really want to. And obviously they're going to, we just don't have any idea how.

[ray245]

OK, here's what we *know*:

--Rey is with Luke. Whether that means she's going to be trained as a Jedi or not, we don't know. Luke may be all "WTF you didn't return the hand, forget you, I needed that back" and carry on sulking. Or maybe Rey turns smuggler with Chewie. Whatever.

--Finn is in a coma (or similar condition). Presumably he will wake up and have adventures. We don't know.

--Kylo Ren is wounded, but alive. Beyond that? Who knows.

--Hux is (presumably) alive. Possibly he will command some sort of First Order unit again. Perhaps he will be expelled in disgrace. Who the hell knows.

--Snoke is still out there and in charge of the First Order. Likewise, Leia is a presence in the Resistance, but again, who knows what's going to happen.

Frankly, the whole future is one huge question mark. There's not a whole lot of concrete stuff left to us at the ending of TFA. This is actually not too dissimilar to how ANH ended, rather deliberately I suspect. It wraps the film up neatly enough, but there's enough characters left that you can keep the story going if you really want to. And obviously they're going to, we just don't have any idea how.

Well, we do know what many of the audience want from the directors and writers. People are interested in finding out who Rey really is, and what happened to Luke and co in the past. That has to be addressed, somehow.

The First Order is unlikely to fade away that quickly, unless they really want to use a completely different villian. So we can safely assume there will be a conflict between the resistance/Republic and the First Order. We also know finding Luke is somehow crucial to the war effort, so Luke is not likely going to stay hidden from forever.

In addition, the First Order HAVE to achieve some sort of victory in order to reestablish themselves as a credible threat in the eyes of the viewers, so that's very likely something that will be in EP 8.

I mean unless they decided to kill Luke and Rey within the first 5 mins of the movie to shock everyone, I highly doubt that Ep 8 and 9 will have much creative space to run around in.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not a big fan of Ep 7 in many ways, but I think one of the most disappointing thing for me is the set-up created by JJ Abrams have left me feeling very underwhelmed by the story direction for EP 8 and 9. I'm not sure if I am fully invested in the character arc for Rey, considering how skilled she is with the force. Nor am I really that invested in Ben Solo's redemption arc. The New Order does not feel like a massive threat because they've never been shown how powerful they were without the Starkiller base.

A character arc should be about more than gaining power levels. If that's all that makes it interesting, its not very strong in any case.

Now, Rey having to struggle to come to terms with that power, the responsibilities it gives her and how to use it well... that's a story, if it has a good writer.

And what makes you think Ben will be redeemed? I feel like he had his shot and said no. I mean... maybe. They could go their. And if they don't it raises issues because it could seem to be a critique or rejection of RotJ's themes. But I wouldn't take it for granted.

As to the First Order... if they could build Starkiller Base, then they're powerful, unless they poured the majority of their resources into one thing and are now crippled, which seems unlikely.

The empire have already been defeated once in ROTJ, and I am not sure if I am fully invested in the overall conflict in TFA. It's hard to see any possible routes for the story that isn't reminiscent of the OT. What sort of themes will EP 8 and 9 explore that makes it feel different from the OT and the PT? JJ have thrown us tons of question marks in TFA, but I am not sure if answering those question would make a good story. The story so far feels extremely hollow to me.

I just hope they don't go cynical/grimdark, that they stay consistent, that they are somewhat original, and that they further the idea of reforming the Jedi Order, and what it means to be Jedi, that runs through the films.

The Prequel Jedi were detached and callous. Yoda seems to begin to see the flaws in that in RotS, and allowed Luke and Leia to be raised by families. Family attachments ended up saving Anakin and Luke and destroying the Empire and Sith. Weather intended or not, its a fascinating and moving theme, for me, when seen as a whole. They need to find some way to continue that.

And their are other issues with what it means to be a Jedi, how you balance the duties of such a life with being a normal person, how Jedi fit in with politicians and a public who may not like a small, independent elite with such power. Etc.

The Jedi are being remade. So explore what it fundamentally means to be Jedi.

The Prequels are the fall of the Jedi. The OT is the defeat of the Empire, the heroes rising from the ashes. Make the ST about defining the new Jedi/Republic.

TFA didn't really do that, but its just a beginning, and the foundations are their for what I'm talking about.

Ep 4-6 tells us the story of Luke growing as a Jedi and redeeming his father. Ep 1-3 is about the fall of Anakin. I'm not sure what the overall arc for Ep 7-9 is about. Is it about Rey? Is it about Ben? Is it about Luke?

I suspect it'll be Rey's story first and foremost, but for that, they need to flesh out her character more.

[Adam Reynolds]

There are two things that could be interesting. The first is that Rey needs to lose somewhat in the next movie, in the same way that Luke did in The Empire Strikes Back.

The second thing I would like to see is a stronger Force based conflict that is the focus of the story. Perhaps an opportunity to seriously damage the Dark Side itself, based on the idea that the First Order is looking for the wellspring of the Dark Side, which is mentioned in one of the EU books.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Force, the Light Side, and the Dark Side seem to me to be almost fundamental forces of the universe, not things that should be limited to a single origin point or capable of being greatly damaged by a single human act.

[Knife]

They need to finish transitioning from OT to new SW. Chewie has to tell them "Ok, Han is dead, he was my buddy, I'm done and going back to Kashyk. Here are the keys to the falcon." Leia has to become deep back group character, going back to lead what's left of the Galactic Republic. Now it's up to the new kids to 'fix' things. Luke can stay for another movie then has to 'move on' in the last one like Yoda.

We need to discover Rey's past without it being too hockey, and she can't be Luke's kid. I guess a twist could be Kylo's younger sister, that could work, or just some random mook's daughter, one of Luke's students that Ren killed. Either or. Fen and Rey's arc must complete.

Poe has to find something besides being the best at 'X' to live for. Ren needs to finish his arc, though I don't thin redemption should be it. Honestly I think he needs to finish his arc as a bad guy before death.

I would like a good explanation of Supreme Leader Snoke but it's not really necessary for the story arc.

That's it, that's all they really need to 'finish' the story.

[The Romulan Republic]

They need to finish transitioning from OT to new SW. Chewie has to tell them "Ok, Han is dead, he was my buddy, I'm done and going back to Kashyk. Here are the keys to the falcon." Leia has to become deep back group character, going back to lead what's left of the Galactic Republic. Now it's up to the new kids to 'fix' things. Luke can stay for another movie then has to 'move on' in the last one like Yoda.

I don't mind seeing the old heroes stick around (and I actively want Lando to make a return), but I agree that the focus should be on the next generation more than the old.

I don't want to see characters killed, especially in cheap/contrived ways, just to get them out of the way.

We need to discover Rey's past without it being too hockey, and she can't be Luke's kid.

Why not? Sure, its a bit predictable/derivative, but its also so heavily implied, I felt, that I might be tempted to scream "bait and switch" if they did anything else.

I guess a twist could be Kylo's younger sister, that could work,

Ugg, please no.

That would mean Han traveling with his daughter for a while and either not knowing who she was or never bothering to tell her. And Leia too.

It would also make the sexual undertone of the Rey interrogation scene even creepier.

or just some random mook's daughter, one of Luke's students that Ren killed. Either or. Fen and Rey's arc must complete.

Agreed on the last part.

Poe has to find something besides being the best at 'X' to live for. Ren needs to finish his arc, though I don't thin redemption should be it. Honestly I think he needs to finish his arc as a bad guy before death.

I could go either way on Ren.

Although if they do have Ren redeemed, have him live to avoid a Vader repeat. And live with the consequences of his choices.

Agreed about Poe.

I would like a good explanation of Supreme Leader Snoke but it's not really necessary for the story arc.

It might be necessary for my peace of mind.

That's it, that's all they really need to 'finish' the story.

The problem is, there's no real cohesion when you write it out like this, no theme or overall story to tie it together, unless its "new generation takes over", sort of. Its just a list of plot points to wrap up.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I see it, their are at least three basic roads to go with Kylo-

1. Go all-out villain. No redemption, no ambiguity. To take that to its logical end point, have him actually "surpass" Vader in a way, finally, by offing Snoke and taking his place for the finale.

2. Redeem him. Finish what Han started, and show that Han's death wasn't necessarily for nothing. But I'm not sure who could reach him if Han couldn't. This fits thematically with RotJ and gives Han's death more meaning/purpose in a way, but runs the risk of being repetitive and cheapening Vader's redemption by making redemption for Dark Side users too frequent/"easy". If they do go this route, see my thoughts above on Ren living, though their are, of course, other ways you could play it.

3. Ren dies as he lived- a conflicted failure, unable to live up to his idol Vader as either a hero or a villain. Fits with TFA's characterization of him, which I found interesting and somewhat original, but lacks much real character growth beyond what we already have.

[biostem]

It's be interesting to have Kylo overthrow Snoke, but to also alienate himself from the First Order in the process; He could end up becoming a sort of "masterless samurai", which would itself be a nod to some of the sources that Lucas originally drew his ideas from.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's actually a very interesting idea. Probably too interesting for the OT copycats running the show of late to go for.

[Knife]

The problem is, there's no real cohesion when you write it out like this, no theme or overall story to tie it together, unless its "new generation takes over", sort of. Its just a list of plot points to wrap up.

Problem is, there is no real over reaching story right now, just a beginning. We can extrapolate themes, especially from the previous movies, but at present there is not clear plot to move towards completion. I'm am very much hoping episode VIII puts into place such structure. It is not a negative thing, not something I'm knocking the new trilogy for. Hell, ANH had the exact same issue but ESB gave it a course to flow towards, I'm sure ep. VIII can too.

The OT ended up the redemption of Vader and the triumph of good through Luke. The PT is about the fall of Anakin. The NT (New Trilogy?) is about ...X

Now we can say it's about Rey, but about Rey doing what? Bringing back the Jedi? Not sure I want that since that's what Luke was supposed to do. Triumph of good? Luke did it and the Galactic Republic stands supposedly for the better. Rey's fall? That would be dumb. I would be against that, not saying they can't do it.

Focus on Kylo?

1. Go all-out villain. No redemption, no ambiguity. To take that to its logical end point, have him actually "surpass" Vader in a way, finally, by offing Snoke and taking his place for the finale.

2. Redeem him. Finish what Han started, and show that Han's death wasn't necessarily for nothing. But I'm not sure who could reach him if Han couldn't. This fits thematically with RotJ and gives Han's death more meaning/purpose in a way, but runs the risk of being repetitive and cheapening Vader's redemption by making redemption for Dark Side users too frequent/"easy". If they do go this route, see my thoughts above on Ren living, though their are, of course, other ways you could play it.

3. Ren dies as he lived- a conflicted failure, unable to live up to his idol Vader as either a hero or a villain. Fits with TFA's characterization of him, which I found interesting and somewhat original, but lacks much real character growth beyond what we already have.

Anyway to redeem him cheapens the OT and runs the risk of just being a redo of the OT. Again, not saying they can't do it, but I'd not want them too. Ren dies as a bad guy does complete an arc and does it different than prior trilogies and I don't think it would cheapen Han's death at all. Personally, I think Han pretty much knew Ren was gone and couldn't come back, he did what he did on the bridge for Leia because he promised her he would try if he could.

[Knife]

Meep, not sure what happened there, would a friendly mod nuke all but one of those?

[ray245]

The problem is, there's no real cohesion when you write it out like this, no theme or overall story to tie it together, unless its "new generation takes over", sort of. Its just a list of plot points to wrap up.

Problem is, there is no real over reaching story right now, just a beginning. We can extrapolate themes, especially from the previous movies, but at present there is not clear plot to move towards completion. I'm am very much hoping episode VIII puts into place such structure. It is not a negative thing, not something I'm knocking the new trilogy for. Hell, ANH had the exact same issue but ESB gave it a course to flow towards, I'm sure ep. VIII can too.

I disagree. ANH had set it up as a story about Luke learning about the force. It's why the ending was about Luke using the force to guide the torpedos as opposed to using the computer.

Rey on the other hand, had pretty much mastered the force by default. TFA really isn't about anything other than a journey to find Luke. Once the found Luke, how do you proceed from there? Luke will pretty much overshadow everyone if he chose to follow Rey and co on any journey.

Hell, even Abrams admitted that the main plot of TFA was about "Who is Luke Skywalker?". Rey is simply a POV for the auidence as opposed to a character.

The OT ended up the redemption of Vader and the triumph of good through Luke. The PT is about the fall of Anakin. The NT (New Trilogy?) is about ...X

That's my worry about the ST. TFA had not done a good job in setting up anything. The problem they faced in the early draft of the script is still present in the script that was used for the film.

Now we can say it's about Rey, but about Rey doing what? Bringing back the Jedi? Not sure I want that since that's what Luke was supposed to do. Triumph of good? Luke did it and the Galactic Republic stands supposedly for the better. Rey's fall? That would be dumb. I would be against that, not saying they can't do it.

Exactly. The early draft of the script had Rey finding Luke quite early and going with him on a journey. The only issue is, they mentioned that Luke had pretty much overshadowed every other character. Luke by default became the lead character once again as opposed to Rey.

There's a lot of mystery behind Rey, but there's no real character arc properly set up for her. It doesn't seem like the ST is about Rey finding her parents, so what is her story?

Focus on Kylo?

That's pretty much Vader's story. Kylo falling further to the dark side is rather pointless because he has already fallen to the dark side at the start of the film. The redemption of Kylo would effectively mirror the story of EP 4-6, the story of Vader.

[FedRebel]

The empire have already been defeated once in ROTJ, and I am not sure if I am fully invested in the overall conflict in TFA. It's hard to see any possible routes for the story that isn't reminiscent of the OT. What sort of themes will EP 8 and 9 explore that makes it feel different from the OT and the PT? JJ have thrown us tons of question marks in TFA,

From what I'm aware of concerning the new lore, after the Battle of Jakku the Empire and Republic broke bread and established a peace.

The Empire retains the Core and Inner Rim, The Republic gets the Mid and Outer rims.

The First Order came out of Wild Space, consisting of Imperial forces that refused the armistice the "Galactic Concordium" established.

With the Republic apparently placed into a weaker position from the Starkiller Base attack, be interesting if a 'reformed' Empire came to the rescue of our heroes

Ep 4-6 tells us the story of Luke growing as a Jedi and redeeming his father. Ep 1-3 is about the fall of Anakin. I'm not sure what the overall arc for Ep 7-9 is about. Is it about Rey? Is it about Ben? Is it about Luke?

Leia, it should be about Leia.

She's like the only respected authority figure in the Republic left, per my 'reformed' Empire brain fart that allows for an intriguing conclusion to Ep.9.

As the 'reformed' Empire comes to the rescue of the heroes, Leia is offered the throne to galvanize the partnership.

I foresee the final battle taking place on Bespin (neutral site for the coronation.) Ren and Rey fight, Ren is knocked aside unconscious as Snoke appears. Snoke tosses Rey aside like a ragdoll and moves towards Leia...but Leia reveals that she has a double sided lightsaber (yellow Sentinel blades.) As they battle, Snoke taunts Leia about how he manipulated Ben, Ren overhears as he regains consciousness, Ren then helps Rey get up, removing his mask and saying "I am a Jedi like my uncle before me" (regrettably such corny callback dialogue is inevitable) and they both come to Leia's aid, Ren makes a heroic sacrifice and Leia is able to put a final end to Snoke (thanks to the intervention she was able to recover to make the finishing move.)

Final celebration scene is Leia being coronated Empress of the new 'Reformed' Galactic Empire, the icon used for the ritual is Palpatine's lightsaber which Leia refuses when presented, requesting it to be placed on the ground where then she destroys it with her saber.

As far as Luke, I foresee a tragic fate in Ep.8. Luke is sent by his sister to ask the Empire for help against The First Order, he returns leading the 501st Legion coming to the rescue of the rest of the heroes. Luke duels with Kylo Ren with Rey spectating, as the duel progresses we see a shocked expression of horror and Rey's face...and Luke is stroke down. Per the old lore, red saber's have a rare chance of breaking through other blades...and that's what happens, Kylo's supercharged blade cuts through Luke's slaying Skywalker...but the severed portion of Luke's blade explodes in Kylo's face wounding him.

Final scene is Rey mourning over Luke's singed robes, the 501st troopers approach (their armor bearing Clone War style markings, TOYS! That's why.) Their commander removes his helmet and Rey says "I sense the force is strong in you...all of you." The Commander replies "We need a teacher." To which Rey says "I will teach you." Pan out to see the full Legion with the Jedi theme playing.

[Havok]

Gawd damnit Ray...

I'm not sure if I am fully invested in the character arc for Rey, considering how skilled she is with the force.

You mean like how Luke learned to use a lightsaber to block blaster bolts on his first attempt or used the Force to blow up the Death Star?

Nor am I really that invested in Ben Solo's redemption arc.

You mean like how you were immediately invested Darth Vader's that you didn't know was even going to exist?

The New Order does not feel like a massive threat because they've never been shown how powerful they were without the Starkiller base.

ANH: One Stardestroyer, a hallway full of Stormtroopers, Bad guy in black who chokes guys, a few Stormtroopers on a desert planet.

How the fuck exactly did the Empire in ANH show how powerful it was before the Death Star that made it soooo impactful to you?

The empire have already been defeated once in ROTJ, and I am not sure if I am fully invested in the overall conflict in TFA.

This may be the only thing you said that has any validity and shows you actually watched the movies. However the First Order seems to openly embrace it's roots in the Dark Side, while the Empire, though run by a Sith, was still just a massive bureaucracy. Think of the First Order as an evil Rebel Alliance.

It's hard to see any possible routes for the story that isn't reminiscent of the OT.

It's amazing how you can't see the parallels that actually exist that you whine about, yet whine that all that can possibly happen is more parallels.

What sort of themes will EP 8 and 9 explore that makes it feel different from the OT and the PT?

WHO CARES?! You won't recognize them.

JJ have thrown us tons of question marks in TFA,

Wait wait wait. Are you saying, they DIDN'T wrap up a 3+ movie story in the first movie?! What jerks!

but I am not sure if answering those question would make a good story.

Yeah, you're right. Who cares that Luke essentially failed in learning from Yoda, Obi-Wan and his father and got his Academy slaughtered. Who cares about Rey possibly becoming the first of a new breed of Jedi or possibly falling herself. Who cares about Kylo Ren and whether he can be redeemed and reconcile with his mother after killing her husband, his own father. Or with Chewie. Or Luke. There's probably noone at all that wants to know about the Knights of Ren. Or Snoake or Poe or R2 and Threepio. What are Disney and Lucasfilm thinking?! None of those could POSSIBLY make good stories at all.

The story so far feels extremely hollow to me.

Your head seems extremely hollow to me.

Ep 4-6 tells us the story of Luke growing as a Jedi and redeeming his father. Ep 1-3 is about the fall of Anakin. I'm not sure what the overall arc for Ep 7-9 is about. Is it about Rey? Is it about Ben? Is it about Luke?

My fucking gawd. Whines because he can't see story parallels, whines that there may be future parallels. Whines that there is no originality, then whines because future movies may not follow established formula.

For fuck sake. You. Colossal. Idiot.

[Thanas]

Meep, not sure what happened there, would a friendly mod nuke all but one of those?

I have committed the great post massacre as requested.

[Knife]

I disagree. ANH had set it up as a story about Luke learning about the force. It's why the ending was about Luke using the force to guide the torpedos as opposed to using the computer.

Oh, it's most certainly about Rey learning the Force, that's a given.

Rey on the other hand, had pretty much mastered the force by default. TFA really isn't about anything other than a journey to find Luke. Once the found Luke, how do you proceed from there? Luke will pretty much overshadow everyone if he chose to follow Rey and co on any journey.

I whole heartedly disagree that Rey 'mastered the force' by default. She is powerful and a natural like Anakin was, and the Force AWAKENED and worked through her but in no more miraculous way than getting Luke to land a shot in a million against the deathstar. Yeah, she beat Kylo who himself was a half trained boy who would have gotten his clocked cleaned by an PT Jedi. Sure, he is strong too, but obviously not fully trained and only looks impressive next to 'normal' people. Not to mention gut shot by Chewie and a good shot that Fen got in with Luke's saber.

Hell, even Abrams admitted that the main plot of TFA was about "Who is Luke Skywalker?". Rey is simply a POV for the auidence as opposed to a character.

As far as Luke goes, he's just a Yoda character, and really only came into the trilogy an hour earlier than Yoda did in the OT. That doesn't worry me much. I would hope that Luke see's the error of 'disappearing' when training Rey, that she must accept that she might fail but still try as a Jedi. Luke really was a transitional character, now needs to set up a new Order with Rey.

That's my worry about the ST. TFA had not done a good job in setting up anything. The problem they faced in the early draft of the script is still present in the script that was used for the film.

Exactly. The early draft of the script had Rey finding Luke quite early and going with him on a journey. The only issue is, they mentioned that Luke had pretty much overshadowed every other character. Luke by default became the lead character once again as opposed to Rey.

There's a lot of mystery behind Rey, but there's no real character arc properly set up for her. It doesn't seem like the ST is about Rey finding her parents, so what is her story?

I have no idea what these ideas were so cannot comment on them.

That's pretty much Vader's story. Kylo falling further to the dark side is rather pointless because he has already fallen to the dark side at the start of the film. The redemption of Kylo would effectively mirror the story of EP 4-6, the story of Vader.

Which is why they should actually explore in film the Sith (or whatever Kylo/Snoke are) and have Ren continue to fall and grow as a bad guy.

I totally get what they did with Ren. They were never going to make another really awesome character like Vader and any attempt was going to fall short and look cheap. Anything would have been labeled as a wannabe, so they actually seriously went with a wannabe. No they should explore that character and make him fall and become truly a frightening evil bad guy, not just a spoiled brat with issues.

[NeoGoomba]

Gawd damnit Ray...

/slow clap

For myself, I need some sort of explanation about Luke walking away. If it's handled in a logical way that is somewhat consistent, I'll be a happy camper. But if it is just some hastily cobbled together cliche, it will supreme character assassination.

Everything else after that, to me, is just kind of gravy. Will Finn become another hero of the Resistance with his bro Poe? What new characters will be introduced in the next film that will alter the story in ways we don't yet see?

And for fuck's sake, where is LANDO!?

[Knife]

Yeah, you're right. Who cares that Luke essentially failed in learning from Yoda, Obi-Wan and his father and got his Academy slaughtered. Who cares about Rey possibly becoming the first of a new breed of Jedi or possibly falling herself. Who cares about Kylo Ren and whether he can be redeemed and reconcile with his mother after killing her husband, his own father. Or with Chewie. Or Luke. There's probably noone at all that wants to know about the Knights of Ren. Or Snoake or Poe or R2 and Threepio. What are Disney and Lucasfilm thinking?! None of those could POSSIBLY make good stories at all.

So yeah, this is the meat and the potatoes of it, isn't it? Luke's role seemed to be to remove Vader (one way or another) but not necessarily to reboot the Jedi. Not sure what 'mistakes' he made but obviously he screwed up.

It would be interesting if he 'took it easy' on Ben because of his parents. Saw that he might be falling but ignored it because he's Han and Leia's kid. Might explain some of the guilt and why he bailed. We've been bagging on the PT for years about the Jedi Rules and about their views on attachment, but this could be the flip side of it. Luke was too attached to Ben to notice and admit that he was falling and had to witness a massacre of his peeps. And because of that attachment could not bring himself to end Kylo at that point either.

I wonder if they will explore the idea that maybe Luke thought about letting the Order die. A lot of suffering has come from the last few decades from fallen Jedi, I wonder if they will explore the idea that without the Jedi these things would not happen and him removing himself from the galaxy as his reasons. It would be interesting. Then finding out that even with himself removed, evil marched on and Jedi are still needed.

Some of the old rules we mocked are still needed, new and old meshed together. Almost a rule of two for Jedi for training, instead of Luke training a whole group at once.

[NeoGoomba]

So yeah, this is the meat and the potatoes of it, isn't it? Luke's role seemed to be to remove Vader (one way or another) but not necessarily to reboot the Jedi. Not sure what 'mistakes' he made but obviously he screwed up.

It would be interesting if he 'took it easy' on Ben because of his parents. Saw that he might be falling but ignored it because he's Han and Leia's kid. Might explain some of the guilt and why he bailed. We've been bagging on the PT for years about the Jedi Rules and about their views on attachment, but this could be the flip side of it. Luke was too attached to Ben to notice and admit that he was falling and had to witness a massacre of his peeps. And because of that attachment could not bring himself to end Kylo at that point either.

I wonder if they will explore the idea that maybe Luke thought about letting the Order die. A lot of suffering has come from the last few decades from fallen Jedi, I wonder if they will explore the idea that without the Jedi these things would not happen and him removing himself from the galaxy as his reasons. It would be interesting. Then finding out that even with himself removed, evil marched on and Jedi are still needed.

Some of the old rules we mocked are still needed, new and old meshed together. Almost a rule of two for Jedi for training, instead of Luke training a whole group at once.

Exactly. We can surmise that Luke was trained to be little more than a human weapon to be aimed by Yoda and Ben at Vader/Palpatine. But did they ever think about what he does after? They gave him skills to fight, and we know he was good at that. But what else was he good at? Is just combat skills enough to be considered a Master?

And even so, just because you're a master at some discipline, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have the skills or mindset to be able to teach said discipline to others. Obi-Wan seemed to have been an admittedly pretty shitty teacher (looking at Anakin), despite being one of the greatest Masters of his era. And poor Luke was a rather impatient young man when he was found. Sure, by the time of RotJ we see him pretty calm and master-like, but he loses his cool during his final duel with Vader. What happens if he loses his cool in front of young children just entering their Force development. Could poor farm boy Luke handle a squad of 8 or 9 year olds? I'm a teacher myself, and I have bad days. But one of my bad days won't result in one of my students become a dark space wizard hell bent on some genocide.

...fuck, at least I hope not.

Like I said earlier. there needs to be a good reason for why he walked away in the next installment. As in he totally blew it as a teacher and it caused the deaths of students. Or that he decided to let knowledge of the Force fade away. It needs to be something more than just "eh, I feel bad, see ya laterz!".

[ray245]

You mean like how Luke learned to use a lightsaber to block blaster bolts on his first attempt or used the Force to blow up the Death Star?

Lucas avoided showing Luke fighting with Vader in Ep 4, showed him losing to Vader despite having some training in Ep 5. We became aware about the limitations of Luke's skills in the OT.

We did not see any limitations to Rey's skills in TFA. She could pretty much do whatever she wanted with the force with no training.

You mean like how you were immediately invested Darth Vader's that you didn't know was even going to exist?

Vader have no character arc set up for him in Ep 4. Ben Solo have a character arc set-up for him in TFA.

ANH: One Stardestroyer, a hallway full of Stormtroopers, Bad guy in black who chokes guys, a few Stormtroopers on a desert planet.

You're an idiot if you can't see the subtext in EP 4. The Empire was a threat because their presence could be felt everywhere. They were an empire that pretty much control most of the Galaxy, with backwater planets having a garrison and two Stardestroyers in orbit. The Rebels were shown to be a group that HAD to remain hidden from the Empire as an insurgency as opposed to a rival faction like the CIS.

How the fuck exactly did the Empire in ANH show how powerful it was before the Death Star that made it soooo impactful to you?

The fact that the only meaningful rebellion were limited to hidden bases? The fact that the destruction of Yavin was portrayed as a do or die battle for the Rebels? The fact that Solo made an remark that the Empire had massive number of ships aside from the Death Star? The First Order and the Resistance were portrayed as two proxy war factions.

However the First Order seems to openly embrace it's roots in the Dark Side, while the Empire, though run by a Sith, was still just a massive bureaucracy. Think of the First Order as an evil Rebel Alliance.

And how is this threatening as a villain faction? Half of the Galaxy remains under the control of a Republic, with a pretty decent navy that required SKB to threaten them. With the loss of SKB, it does not seem like the New Order have any major surprise up their sleeves that makes them a major threat to the New Republic.

It's amazing how you can't see the parallels that actually exist that you whine about, yet whine that all that can possibly happen is more parallels.

It doesn't answer my question. Why should I be interested in a parallel storyline?

WHO CARES?! You won't recognize them.

How about there isn't any meaningful themes?

Wait wait wait. Are you saying, they DIDN'T wrap up a 3+ movie story in the first movie?! What jerks!

No, I am saying they are making a TV pilot episode as opposed to a movie. Throwing lots of mysteries is a good way to get viewers hooked, but that does not mean it will create a decent story. It's almost like the TV show Lost, where the mystery is the only thing that keeps the showing going, even though the writers have zero clue what's behind the mystery.

A story isn't merely about questions and answers.

Yeah, you're right. Who cares that Luke essentially failed in learning from Yoda, Obi-Wan and his father and got his Academy slaughtered. Who cares about Rey possibly becoming the first of a new breed of Jedi or possibly falling herself. Who cares about Kylo Ren and whether he can be redeemed and reconcile with his mother after killing her husband, his own father. Or with Chewie. Or Luke. There's probably noone at all that wants to know about the Knights of Ren. Or Snoake or Poe or R2 and Threepio. What are Disney and Lucasfilm thinking?! None of those could POSSIBLY make good stories at all.

Those things don't necessarily makes good stories. How does finding out about background information about the origins of some evil sect makes a major story? Moreover, all those stories you are talking about have already been told once. If I am looking for something different, why should I be invested in Disney's Star Wars?

At the least some of the EU stories tried to be more creative than TFA.

Your head seems extremely hollow to me.

Yeah, because not liking a narrative rehash makes someone hollow in the head.

Oh, it's most certainly about Rey learning the Force, that's a given.

What more did she need to learn from Luke? She could easily best someone who spent years training to be a Jedi in a matter of days. The only thing left for her would be learning to master some ultimate skills that could kill Snoke or something. That isn't interesting in my opinion.

I whole heartedly disagree that Rey 'mastered the force' by default. She is powerful and a natural like Anakin was, and the Force AWAKENED and worked through her but in no more miraculous way than getting Luke to land a shot in a million against the deathstar. Yeah, she beat Kylo who himself was a half trained boy who would have gotten his clocked cleaned by an PT Jedi. Sure, he is strong too, but obviously not fully trained and only looks impressive next to 'normal' people. Not to mention gut shot by Chewie and a good shot that Fen got in with Luke's saber.

If someone does not need the training to defeat the main antagonist of a film, then it makes the whole story weaker because there isn't anything left to threaten the heroes. It's like JJ and his stupid idea about the magic blood. If heroes could be easily revived, then we don't need to fear for their lives.

As far as Luke goes, he's just a Yoda character, and really only came into the trilogy an hour earlier than Yoda did in the OT. That doesn't worry me much. I would hope that Luke see's the error of 'disappearing' when training Rey, that she must accept that she might fail but still try as a Jedi. Luke really was a transitional character, now needs to set up a new Order with Rey.

Except Luke was a different character from Yoda. Luke was the leading protagonist as opposed to Yoda. People are interested in following Luke's journey more so than Yoda's. This makes writing any sequel with a different protagonist difficult, because the desire to explore Luke's story will easily overshadow Rey's. JJ simply pushed the burden to Rian Johnson.

Which is why they should actually explore in film the Sith (or whatever Kylo/Snoke are) and have Ren continue to fall and grow as a bad guy.

I totally get what they did with Ren. They were never going to make another really awesome character like Vader and any attempt was going to fall short and look cheap. Anything would have been labeled as a wannabe, so they actually seriously went with a wannabe. No they should explore that character and make him fall and become truly a frightening evil bad guy, not just a spoiled brat with issues.

Antagonist functions in stories as a foil to threaten the protagonist. If the antagonist required his own story to be a threat, then it weakens the tension of the story.

Furthermore, I dislike the notions of having to create a weaker villian because you could never recreate Vader in terms of on-screen presence. Plenty of Star Wars fans were fine with characters like Darth Maul and Darth Sidious even though they aren't as memorable as Vader. They could still function effectively as villains.

Kylo Ren is basically an upgraded version of a stormtrooper. He could easily kill Rebel mooks and unnamed Jedi with ease. However, the second he is faced with the new protagonist of Star Wars, he loses the fight. The lightsabre duel scene just showed just how much plot armour Rey has.

So yeah, this is the meat and the potatoes of it, isn't it? Luke's role seemed to be to remove Vader (one way or another) but not necessarily to reboot the Jedi. Not sure what 'mistakes' he made but obviously he screwed up.

It would be interesting if he 'took it easy' on Ben because of his parents. Saw that he might be falling but ignored it because he's Han and Leia's kid. Might explain some of the guilt and why he bailed. We've been bagging on the PT for years about the Jedi Rules and about their views on attachment, but this could be the flip side of it. Luke was too attached to Ben to notice and admit that he was falling and had to witness a massacre of his peeps. And because of that attachment could not bring himself to end Kylo at that point either.

I wonder if they will explore the idea that maybe Luke thought about letting the Order die. A lot of suffering has come from the last few decades from fallen Jedi, I wonder if they will explore the idea that without the Jedi these things would not happen and him removing himself from the galaxy as his reasons. It would be interesting. Then finding out that even with himself removed, evil marched on and Jedi are still needed.

Some of the old rules we mocked are still needed, new and old meshed together. Almost a rule of two for Jedi for training, instead of Luke training a whole group at once.

How much room is left for Rey in such a story? Rey's training as a Jedi would effectively serve as Luke's story as opposed to her story. Rey is a support character, not the main character.

[Knife]

What more did she need to learn from Luke? She could easily best someone who spent years training to be a Jedi in a matter of days. The only thing left for her would be learning to master some ultimate skills that could kill Snoke or something. That isn't interesting in my opinion.

Uhm, whether or not the Force awoke and worked through Rey, she obviously is not fully trained, and just like Ren, would have her clocked cleaned by an PT Jedi. She was able to defeat a half trained boy with poor control, who was wounded and emotionally conflicted. It was a good feat, don't get me wrong, but hardly an example of her being tip top master.

It was showing she was powerful, not well trained or educated on what that power was or could do. There lies the character growth potential. Just like the OT, the way you use power/wisdom/force is more important to your character than what power level you started out as.

All we saw in TFA was when Ren did the Jedi mind meld, it went both ways and she could read him too, when they fought, she with some basic melee skills was able to tap into the force with the whole 'be everything around you' bit and was able to outfight the wounded half trained spaz boy. Those are all basic Jedi skills shown in other movies.

Luke showed similar potential with the training droid, blocking laser shots, in fact I would say that blocking those bolts was more impressive than blocking sword strikes especially since she had some experience in melee fighting. Luke showed more in ESB with his training when he was able to see further into the future and lift a space fighter, albeit only a little before he gave up.

That being said, Younglings in the PT were shown with similar skill sets. So congratulations, your insta Jedi Master Rey is about on par with the beginners in ROTS. She has plenty of room to grow.

If someone does not need the training to defeat the main antagonist of a film, then it makes the whole story weaker because there isn't anything left to threaten the heroes. It's like JJ and his stupid idea about the magic blood. If heroes could be easily revived, then we don't need to fear for their lives.

He was the main antagonist of this movie, what makes you think he is the main antagonist of the series? What makes you think his character will not advance along with Rey's?

Except Luke was a different character from Yoda. Luke was the leading protagonist as opposed to Yoda. People are interested in following Luke's journey more so than Yoda's. This makes writing any sequel with a different protagonist difficult, because the desire to explore Luke's story will easily overshadow Rey's. JJ simply pushed the burden to Rian Johnson.

Luke SHOULD be the same nitch as Yoda was in the OT. He is the 'old wise master' role. The 'fix my mistakes' character. Just like Yoda. Luke WAS the main character in the OT, but I'm not sure why you thought the NT would be the continuation of his story? It's obviously not. Which is why I mentioned earlier that he is a transitional character, to move from OT to NT.

Is that why you are so mad at the NT, you wanted the continuing story of Luke Skywalker?

Antagonist functions in stories as a foil to threaten the protagonist. If the antagonist required his own story to be a threat, then it weakens the tension of the story.

No it doesn't, especially if you have a multi movie arc, you need a weaker villain for a weaker hero, but they both get stronger as the arc progresses so that it's more reasonable for the hero to both still be alive after the initial fight and win the last fight.

Furthermore, I dislike the notions of having to create a weaker villian because you could never recreate Vader in terms of on-screen presence. Plenty of Star Wars fans were fine with characters like Darth Maul and Darth Sidious even though they aren't as memorable as Vader. They could still function effectively as villains.

While I have no problem with Maul, plenty of fans despised him for being a cheap cutout character with no depth. He was more or less disposable in TPM. Palpatine is the antagonist in the PT with good depth and he actually got more powerful in the story arc, not force power wise, but political power and influence wise. He made Vader and is sure as shit as cool, just sneaky black wizard cool to Vader's black knight cool.

Kylo Ren is basically an upgraded version of a stormtrooper. He could easily kill Rebel mooks and unnamed Jedi with ease. However, the second he is faced with the new protagonist of Star Wars, he loses the fight. The lightsabre duel scene just showed just how much plot armour Rey has.

His character is the flip side of the decisions the Luke had to make. He wants to be evil and is resisting the light. That's actually pretty interesting and I'm sorry you just want a big bad meanie to beat up the good guys. His character has plenty of room to grow and that's a good thing.

How much room is left for Rey in such a story? Rey's training as a Jedi would effectively serve as Luke's story as opposed to her story. Rey is a support character, not the main character.

Again, I see you're butthurt that this isn't the continuing story of Luke Skywalker's adventures. It's not. He's old and now a support character to move you from the old cast to the new. Will Rey have the same plot points of Luke? Not sure, hope not. Will Rey have the same themes as a growing hero with hard choices? Absolutely and that isn't a bad thing, it the whole set up of the genre.