Challenge: Rebuild the New Republic fleet.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, in The Force Awakens, one gets the impression that the NR isn't terribly impressive militarily. Its strength is hard to gauge because it barely appears in the film, but it relies on the Resistance to fight its war against the First Order for it even after a major WMD attack against it, does not control the whole galaxy, and apparently loses its fleet, or at least a significant chunk of it, to the aforementioned WMD attack (or so I've read- I don't recall weather this was stated in the film, though some ships are briefly visible over an NR world that gets blown up).

So, here's the scenario- you are a New Republic official, tasked with presenting a proposal for reconstruction of the fleet after the Starkiller base attack. You have effective carte blanche, but their are a few realities you will have to keep in mind:

1. The New Republic has a political culture which is not amenable to authoritarianism/militarism (this can, I think, be reasonably inferred from the films). This may have changed somewhat following the Starkiller attack, but their will likely be pushback if you start proposing the construction of huge fleets of SSDs and Death Stars.

2. The NR does not have infinite resources, especially after the Starkiller attack. Your proposal is more likely to be adopted and implemented if it avoids excessive expenditures.

3. This fleet needs to, at minimum, be able to meet the goals of securing major NR worlds/instillations against attack, of going toe-to-toe with First Order SDs and emerging victorious, of supporting landings on contested planets, and of assaulting something like the Starkiller base (which was evidently built in secret, so their's no way of being sure another one won't turn up).

Also, feel free to make recommendations for ground forces as well. At the very least, your naval ships can carry some ground forces/marines/support craft for deployment.

I know we've had threads like this before, but not one for TFA/the new continuity NR, I believe. So here goes.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the real question is, what assets are available? What do typical ships and weapons look like in the "Rebellion era plus thirty years" world? Has the long term warfare resulted in more powerful military technology, or has the decay and destruction of economic infrastructure resulted in it being actively harder to build large warships?

[biostem]

From my understanding, it was more a matter of plausible deniability, that the Resistance were the ones fighting the First Order, not that the New Republic didn't possess any military.

Regardless, it is difficult to gauge as we only ever see the 1 First Order capital ship and, well, zero Resistance cap ships...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well according to some of the new EU, the NR Starfleet was heavily downsized following the end of the Civil War, but was still the largest, only for a chunk to be wiped out in the Hosnian system. And since the period between Jakku and TFA was an era of relative peace, I can't imagine military technology has advanced that far.

So, given that the pre-TFA Starfleet was the largest in the galaxy and thus able to fight the First Order and win, and the NR was already happy with a fleet that size, then it should not prove difficult to get approval to rebuild it to at least that size if not larger.

In terms of actual ships and such, hmm. We obviously need something that can go toe to toe with the First Order SD's. I'm envisaging something like a SD-sized Mon Cal cruiser most likely, built as a warship from the ground up. I would put the design focus on shielding rather than offensive punch since it's intended to be a defensive vessel. I also wouldn't bother having it carry fighters; build carriers for that, this is going to be a proper big-gun warship with the heaviest shielding/armour possible for the size. I think that having 80% of a FO SD is a bare minimum, if we can get stronger shields on the hull. Oh, and a hefty compliment of anti-fighter guns to take out TIEs.

Additionally, since the Starfleet was heavily shrunk following that Galactic Concordance deal, it's possible they may have large numbers of Civil War-era vessels in mothballs that could be re-activated faster than building new hulls. It's a stopgap certainly but it may help.

I think the bigger problem is going to be training crews. I suspect that the destruction of the Hosnian system will bring the Starfleet plenty of volunteers, they're going to be green recruits.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, the real question is, what assets are available? What do typical ships and weapons look like in the "Rebellion era plus thirty years" world? Has the long term warfare resulted in more powerful military technology, or has the decay and destruction of economic infrastructure resulted in it being actively harder to build large warships?

We can get some sense of the tech. level from the film, and it doesn't seem much more advanced aside from the Starkiller Base, although it is possible (maybe even probable) that the First Order and Resistance are using stuff that isn't top of the line. But you should be able to match the quality of most of what they have, at least.

If you're asking about resources/industry... I don't know. The film didn't give us much on the NR, like I said before. But they would not have been a notable galactic force, most likely, if they only had the territory destroyed in the film, or if that was the bulk of what they have.

Edit:

I'd like to address the training issue from the previous post as well.

Since its reasonable to presume that the NR is in a state of open war with the First Order now, their is no need to covertly back the Resistance. Integrate their very experienced personnel into your fleet as officers if possible. That gives you some excellent top level commanders and some very capable fighter pilots.

Probably not enough of them to fill out your whole fleet, but enough to form the basis of a solid officer corps, perhaps.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The new EU goes into more detail about this. The Galactic Concordance made the Empire give up Coruscant and confined them to the Core and Inner Rim, with the REpublic having the rest. The Empire was severely restricted militarily whilst the Republic stayed powerful for a few years before shrinking their fleet. It was still the largest in the galaxy but it was only a fraction of the Clone Wars era Republic Navy.

The Republic's capital moved around on a rotating basis, that's why Hosnian Prime was destroyed not Coruscant. Unfortunately the system also contained a large portion of the Fleet which also went kablooey. So the Republic should still have a reasonable sized Fleet remaining but that's going to be stretched thin. They also still have a good chunk of the galaxy under their control.

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

[The Romulan Republic]

The new EU goes into more detail about this. The Galactic Concordance made the Empire give up Coruscant and confined them to the Core and Inner Rim, with the REpublic having the rest. The Empire was severely restricted militarily whilst the Republic stayed powerful for a few years before shrinking their fleet. It was still the largest in the galaxy but it was only a fraction of the Clone Wars era Republic Navy.

So that would suggest their navy is substantially below that which they are theoretically capable of building and maintaining.

The Republic's capital moved around on a rotating basis, that's why Hosnian Prime was destroyed not Coruscant. Unfortunately the system also contained a large portion of the Fleet which also went kablooey. So the Republic should still have a reasonable sized Fleet remaining but that's going to be stretched thin. They also still have a good chunk of the galaxy under their control.

Sounds about right.

What I'd like to know is weather they control any of the major shipyard systems. Mon Calimari, Corelia, that sort of thing.

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

So NR diplomats are horrifically incompetent?

Wait, wasn't Leia an ambassador?

Maybe its better that she's a general instead now.

[Lord Revan]

Actually do we know exactly how much influence Leia had in the post Endor policitics of the Republic, for all we know the Condordance ended up the way it did because Leia was either sidelined or otherwise unavaible.

Also I wonder how much of a reserve fleet (official or unofficial) there was so it could be that the Republic could field fleets large enough to crush the First Order should they have the political will to do so, after TFA that is.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The new EU goes into more detail about this. The Galactic Concordance made the Empire give up Coruscant and confined them to the Core and Inner Rim, with the REpublic having the rest. The Empire was severely restricted militarily whilst the Republic stayed powerful for a few years before shrinking their fleet. It was still the largest in the galaxy but it was only a fraction of the Clone Wars era Republic Navy.

So that would suggest their navy is substantially below that which they are theoretically capable of building and maintaining.

That is my read on it, yes. Though after TFA, the fleet is even smaller, but they presumably already had logistics support for their full Fleet, so they won't have to replace that as well as the ships and crews.

The Republic's capital moved around on a rotating basis, that's why Hosnian Prime was destroyed not Coruscant. Unfortunately the system also contained a large portion of the Fleet which also went kablooey. So the Republic should still have a reasonable sized Fleet remaining but that's going to be stretched thin. They also still have a good chunk of the galaxy under their control.

Sounds about right.

What I'd like to know is weather they control any of the major shipyard systems. Mon Calimari, Corelia, that sort of thing.

Corellia probably not, that was IIRC a Core or Inner Rim world so it's probably still in Imperial hands (or whatever is left of the Empire there). Mon Calamari, most probably. Kuat and Fondor are also probably still in Rump Imperial hands though.

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

So NR diplomats are horrifically incompetent?

Wait, wasn't Leia an ambassador?

Maybe its better that she's a general instead now.

I wouldn't say their horrifically incompetent since in-universe they wouldn't have the precedent of Versailles to tell them "not smart guys." Also, the NR may not have known at the time about Imperial forces jumping into the Unknown Regions, so confining them tot he Core/Inner Rim and restricting them while maintaining a position of strength and keeping an eye on them would probably have worked. Hell, it did work, since it's the First Order that's fuckign things up, not a resurgent Empire based in the Core.

[The Romulan Republic]

Lord Revan:

Well, I was kind of joking about Leia.

As to a reserve fleet... well, obviously they aren't likely to make the NR really strong in the next film because they need to string out the First Order conflict through three films. To justify that... maybe the loss of their capital caused political and economy instability that kept them from being fully effective? I just hope it isn't ignored or worse, explained as "losing one system/a few systems destroyed them outright" or "they're pacifists and therefore incompetent/cowardly."

As to my own ideas for revamping the fleet... well, in brief, I'm thinking something like this:

1. Start a massive recruitment drive. That shouldn't be hard. People tend to feel all angry and patriotic if a major city gets blown up.

2. Begin increased construction of capital ships. Eternal_Freedom's suggestion of an SD-sized Mon Calimari-type design doesn't sound terrible. Agreed on dedicated carriers and battleships as well, unless funding for that many new ships cannot be procured.

3. Integrate Resistance personnel into my officer corps, as I said before.

4. Talk to the Resistance people who fought the Starkiller. Get any data they have about tech., capabilities, etc. Use that when designing our own next generation star fighters (given the difficulty the X-wings had taking out the Starkiller, a heavier torpedo design is a must have, I think).

5. Start putting together special forces designed specifically to take down rogue Force users, if we don't have them already. The Knights of Ren are out their.

6. Look at decentralizing the fleet a bit, so we don't lose so many ships to a single attack in the future.

I'll try to flesh it out a bit more later, but that's a start.

Edited to clarify who I was replying to.

[Eternal_Freedom]

"Doesn't sound terrible." Thanks, I can feel the enthusiasm there

[ray245]

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

Not when we have a person like Abrams in control.

Sw is a setting which showed us it is possible to militarise their industries very quickly. The Clone Wars is an example of how an undermiltiarised Republic could mobilise their resources very quickly for a intergalatic war.

[The Romulan Republic]

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

Not when we have a person like Abrams in control.

Abrams may not be a terribly good script writer or a great political thinker, but he's not writing the EU stuff, is he? Besides, lots of laymen have at least a basic understanding that Versailles was a bad idea.

And Abrams did explicitly compare the First Order to the Nazis, so a Versailles parallel in the backstory isn't out of the question.

Sw is a setting which showed us it is possible to militarise their industries very quickly. The Clone Wars is an example of how an undermiltiarised Republic could mobilise their resources very quickly for a intergalatic war.

Well... maybe it is now that the 3 million clones number has been trashed.

Please tell me they didn't bring back that particular piece of the EU.

[ray245]

Incidentally, everything I read about this Galactic Concordance treaty is giving me vibes of the Versailles Treaty and what it led to. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

Not when we have a person like Abrams in control.

Abrams may not be a terribly good script writer or a great political thinker, but he's not writing the EU stuff, is he? Besides, lots of laymen have at least a basic understanding that Versailles was a bad idea.

And Abrams did explicitly compare the First Order to the Nazis, so a Versailles parallel in the backstory isn't out of the question.

It's Abrams. None of his movies, especially in ST has indicated this is someone who understands politics well enough. Not to mention it does not seem like Abrams spent much time in doing any world-building for TFA. The Galactic Concordance treaty seems like some measure Abrams have thrown in to set up a scenario which the Rebels remains the underdog of the story.

Well... maybe it is now that the 3 million clones number has been trashed.

Please tell me they didn't bring back that particular piece of the EU.

I'm not sure if TCW made any reference to the 3 million Clones. Given that planetary invasion seems to be handled by a few divisions at the most, Clone troopers seem to be a rather small force. The budget constrain of the cartoon have given us a SW that is even smaller in scale than most of the old EU.

[Simon_Jester]

I find it amusing that the Concordance does explain both how the New Order got its shiny ships (and Starkiller Base), and why the New created a Resistance to fight them.

It's a deliberate proxy war.

The Empire- which, even if demilitarized, controls Core worlds that are presumably vast in population, old in history, and heavily industrialized.

The New Republic, by contrast, has been relegated to the Rim, the less prosperous and influential parts of the galaxy. Its forces are scattered more thinly, and it has more random renegades, criminal Hutts, and weird alien threats to contend with.

If I were running the Empire, funding a pro-Imperial faction to make trouble for the Republic is literally the first thing I'd try. I'd arm them with light to medium weapons, powerful enough to present a serious problem for the Republic and yet low-power enough that I'd have to be manufacturing them in the core anyway. The Concordance cannot realistically have barred the Empire from making ships on the same scale as an ISD, and certainly hasn't barred them from making TIE fighters or the like.

Meanwhile, the New Republic, having drawn down its armed forces and needing proportionately much more armed force to secure its own territory against random threats (and the new New Order) is in no position to declare war on me even if it suspects my involvement. So they create their own proxy... which may be less like a rebellion and more like the Green Berets send into a Third World country to fight in its civil war and train the locals to do the same.

Now, trying to help the New Order construct a massive Galaxy Gun-like weapon is seriously escalating the threat... which suggests that either the remnant Empire is about to launch a major attack against the Republic and is using the New Order's superweapon to soften them up, or that the New Order is playing some kind of double game and is manipulating the Empire while keeping parts of their own agenda secret.

[FedRebel]

1. The New Republic has a political culture which is not amenable to authoritarianism/militarism (this can, I think, be reasonably inferred from the films). This may have changed somewhat following the Starkiller attack, but their will likely be pushback if you start proposing the construction of huge fleets of SSDs and Death Stars.

Aside from getting what warships were in mothballs back into fighting condition, have Mon Calamari do what they did before, convert spaceliners into warships.

Options are extremely limited, queueing up new production within Concordance constraints will take too long'

Only other option is to bite our lips and open a dialogue with the neutral government on Coruscant...I believe it still goes by "The Galactic Empire." Best shot would be a 'Lend Lease' arrangement to get more hulls into the fight for the Republic.

2. The NR does not have infinite resources, especially after the Starkiller attack. Your proposal is more likely to be adopted and implemented if it avoids excessive expenditures.

See above, gravest cost would be relaxing the Concordance against the Coruscant government, and "leasing" if not ceding certain mid-rim sector(s)

3. This fleet needs to, at minimum, be able to meet the goals of securing major NR worlds/instillations against attack, of going toe-to-toe with First Order SDs and emerging victorious, of supporting landings on contested planets, and of assaulting something like the Starkiller base (which was evidently built in secret, so their's no way of being sure another one won't turn up).

Let's see...
No Shake 'n Bake Clone Army
No Driod legions

...What's the timetable? We're looking at, 2 years minimum. That's assuming that Starkiller just took out the Navy's offensive capability, defensive fleets remain in their sectors. Rebuilding the offensive arm from boneyard derelicts and converted spaceliners will take that long, along with recruiting an army.

So for 2 years what remains has to hold ground.

[The Romulan Republic]

If we're looking at years before a credible offence or building up the capital ship fleet is possible, then perhaps focus on star fighters in the short term?

They'll be quicker to build and require less extensive facilities than capital ships, and they shouldn't pose a problem with the Concordance.

Step up mass production of X-wings, and as I discussed above, see about arming them with a heavier variety of torpedo as quickly as possible.

[ray245]

If we're looking at years before a credible offence or building up the capital ship fleet is possible, then perhaps focus on star fighters in the short term?

They'll be quicker to build and require less extensive facilities than capital ships, and they shouldn't pose a problem with the Concordance.

Step up mass production of X-wings, and as I discussed above, see about arming them with a heavier variety of torpedo as quickly as possible.

Just let Poe Dameron go up against an entire fleet of Star-destroyers. He'll probably wipe out the entire fleet on his own.

[Crazedwraith]

Well... maybe it is now that the 3 million clones number has been trashed.

Please tell me they didn't bring back that particular piece of the EU.

That horribile minamistic piece of EU known as.... Attack of the Clones? :LOL:

Yes I know the fan explain-a-way. But it is still a fanon thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

Attack of the Clones is not the origin of the 3 million number.

The number given in the film is 200,000 units, plus "a million more well under way" or some such. But because its "units", and its not specified explicitly weather that means soldiers or squads or companies or legions or whatever, it gave a bit of wiggle room for interpretation back in the day.

It was the EU that codified 3 million individual soldiers.

[Crazedwraith]

Did I not just say I know the fanon explanation that unit <> 1 trooper? Even worse if the film specified dven fewer than the EU.

[The Romulan Republic]

Did I not just say I know the fanon explanation that unit <> 1 trooper? Even worse if the film specified dven fewer than the EU.

My point is that, strictly speaking, the film didn't specify fewer.

It was just vague enough to leave multiple valid interpretations.

None of which, arguably, would have been canon except for the EU choosing to specify the stupidest possible one.

[NecronLord]

Really we know nothing about the Republic Budget. A feisable answer might be anything up to and including 'Commission ten Death Star II class Battle Planetoids.'

[NecronLord]

One thing I would say, though, is that the 'rim' can't actually be that poor overall, if we're going with the notion of the Clone Wars seperatists mostly being headquartered there; certainly there's poverty, but there could easily be massive resources in Republic space.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC in legends while the Outer rim was poorer then Mid rim or Core worlds overall, it didn't mean that there weren't wealthy parts in it, just that bulks of the systems were like Tatooine poor and under developed, but you also had wealthy systems like pre-bombardment Taris.

Also IIRC the main pre-clonewars bases of the CIS members were in the Core Worlds or Mid rim but they were chased out of those pretty early in the war leaving them with the Outer rim bases. (in legendaries that is I dunno how it's in current canon).