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Posted: **2002-08-27 12:32am**

I recall someone mentioning a Star Wars Expanded Universe novel in which a Jedi uses the Force to retrieve a cruiser hidden inside a star. Furthermore, someone on usenet mentioned a SW game where Jedi were capable of moving ISDs.

I can accept the MOST powerful Jedi having these abilities. The problem is, Yoda is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi, just as Palpatine, Dooku and Vader are supposed to be the most powerful Sith. Is there anything within the SW canon to suggest that these characters have such powers?

Posted: **2002-08-27 03:54am**

Rathark wrote:I recall someone mentioning a Star Wars Expanded Universe novel in which a Jedi uses the Force to retrieve a cruiser hidden inside a star.

Kyp Durron while using the darkside.

[Q]Furthermore, someone on usenet mentioned a SW game where Jedi were capable of moving ISDs[/Q]

Never heard of it, a bunch of Jedi did move a fleet of VSD's though once.

I can accept the MOST powerful Jedi having these abilities. The problem is, Yoda is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi, just as Palpatine, Dooku and Vader are supposed to be the most powerful Sith. Is there anything within the SW canon to suggest that these characters have such powers?

Why is Yoda supposed to be the most powerfull?

Posted: **2002-08-27 04:15am**

First post... Hello everybody

Rathark wrote:Is there anything within the SW canon to suggest that these characters have such powers?

No. No, no, no. The biggest thing we see moved by the Force is a stationary X-wing. And even then Yoda scrunched up his face in concentration.

Most of these overpowered Jedi come from thew writings of KJA... the Star Wars universe would be a hell of a lot more logical if he never put pen to paper. Since there is canon evidence that contradicts these uber-Jedi powers, I think its pretty safe to assume that its all crap and should be disregarded.

Posted: **2002-08-27 05:20am**

From SW canon: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignifigant next to the powers of the Force." (How exactly the Force is more powerful than turning a planet into roadkill is unknown, but there is much that is not known about the Force).

From SW EU: If I recall correctly, in one of the Young Jedi Knight books, a bunch of junior Jedi Knights combined their powers (I think by using one of those Massassi Temples as a focus) and whacked a bunch of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system (it's been years since I read it, so I could have some details messed up).

From SW EU: "... supernova of stars with a passing thought..." (From DF2: Jedi Knight, concerning what a person fully infused with power from the Valley of the Jedi can do).

As for Yoda in TESB seeming pretty damned weak, he was 900 years old and DYING, can't exactly blame him for not being able to jump around like in AOTC in his last days.

Posted: **2002-08-27 05:34am**

Vision of the Future also explained why Yoda was so bothered with somehing as simple as lifting an X-wing, well it was simple Luke thought.
Something about not using the force too much and such.

Posted: **2002-08-27 08:30am**

His Divine Shadow wrote:Vision of the Future also explained why Yoda was so bothered with somehing as simple as lifting an X-wing, well it was simple Luke thought.
Something about not using the force too much and such.

I would say that's merely Zahn trying to rationalise all of KJA's crap. Unfortunately KJA's crap seems to have infested other Star Wars writers. Still, they seem to be getting back on track wih the NJO. In one of the Dark Tide books Luke expended all his energy shifting one of the dovin basal's 'gravitic anamolies' a tiny bit. Sounds more reasonable. (I believe the whacking of a bunch of Star Destroyers out of Yavin was in Darksaber.)

Anyway, like I said, the EU is irrelevant if it contradicts canon evidence. The "ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" quote is interesting. But I think here Vader is saying that the Force is all encompassing, that man's "technological terror's" are an insignificant to the spiritual power of the Force. The Force encompasses all living things - it makes up all people. It is therefore above the petty concerns of men. More practically, the Force is more subtle and yet just as powerful. Vader demonstrates this - he can exercise ultimate control over a person because he can take away their life at a whim. Vader doesn't need to make a demonstration like destroying a planet to make people fear him - all he needs to do is wave his hand. And of course Vader's probably dramatising a little bit - he is after all a Sith, of course he'll say the Force is all-powerful.

Remember that neither Han ("kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make make believe there's some all powerful 'energy field' [or something] controlling everything") nor Admiral Motti ("don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways") nor Tarkin ("the Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend are all that's left of their religion") think that the Force was at all powerful.

Posted: **2002-08-27 08:32am**

Morte wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Vision of the Future also explained why Yoda was so bothered with somehing as simple as lifting an X-wing, well it was simple Luke thought.
Something about not using the force too much and such.
I would say that's merely Zahn trying to rationalise all of KJA's crap. Unfortunately KJA's crap seems to have infested other Star Wars writers. Still, they seem to be getting back on track wih the NJO. In one of the Dark Tide books Luke expended all his energy shifting one of the dovin basal's 'gravitic anamolies' a tiny bit. Sounds more reasonable. (I believe the whacking of a bunch of Star Destroyers out of Yavin was in Darksaber.)

Anyway, like I said, the EU is irrelevant if it contradicts canon evidence. The "ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" quote is interesting. But I think here Vader is saying that the Force is all encompassing, that man's "technological terrors" are an insignificant to the spiritual power of the Force. The Force encompasses all living things - it makes up all people. It is therefore above the petty concerns of men. More practically, the Force is more subtle and yet just as powerful. Vader demonstrates this - he can exercise ultimate control over a person because he can take away their life at a whim. Vader doesn't need to make a demonstration like destroying a planet to make people fear him - all he needs to do is wave his hand. And of course Vader's probably dramatising a little bit - he is after all a Sith, of course he'll say the Force is all-powerful.

Remember that neither Han ("kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make make believe there's some all powerful 'energy field' [or something] controlling everything") nor Admiral Motti ("don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways") nor Tarkin ("the Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend are all that's left of their religion") think that the Force was at all powerful.

Posted: **2002-08-27 08:35am**

Sorry about these last two posts... I pressed the quote button thinking it was the edit button.

And now I have to explain my mistake... I'm not trying to increase my post count, I promise!

Posted: **2002-08-27 08:42am**

I would say that's merely Zahn trying to rationalise all of KJA's crap. Unfortunately KJA's crap seems to have infested other Star Wars writers. Still, they seem to be getting back on track wih the NJO. In one of the Dark Tide books Luke expended all his energy shifting one of the dovin basal's 'gravitic anamolies' a tiny bit. Sounds more reasonable. (I believe the whacking of a bunch of Star Destroyers out of Yavin was in Darksaber.)

KJA's stories are generally crap, but his assertion of Jedi powers I agree with, well Dark Jedi powers.

Anyway, like I said, the EU is irrelevant if it contradicts canon evidence.

But it doesn't contradict anything here, plus he's right, Yoda was old and dying.
You're also ignoring the dark side light side thing here, Kyp was under the influence of the Darkside, he never did anything like that after he turned again.

The "ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" quote is interesting. But I think here Vader is saying that the Force is all encompassing, that man's "technological terror's" are an insignificant to the spiritual power of the Force. The Force encompasses all living things - it makes up all people. It is therefore above the petty concerns of men.

I don't though, because Sith Lords in the past destroyed suns.

The Jedi Powers as described are right on the money I think.

And traitor does describe the force as all powerfull, wich is true too.
Pg. 168: "What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion... but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness-true greatness of any kind-requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
...
"If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."

Posted: **2002-08-27 10:55am**

In ATOC we see that a whole gaggle of Jedi, including two of the big boys (Mace and Yoda) can't even defeat a lame-o droid army. There "Maximum Power" is pretty feeble.

"Impresive" it ain't.

The X-Men would have done a heck of alot better. Magneto himself is more powerful than all the Jedi put together.

Aaron

Posted: **2002-08-27 11:16am**

Hi troll, bye troll.

Posted: **2002-08-27 11:36am**

Aaron2 wrote:In ATOC we see that a whole gaggle of Jedi, including two of the big boys (Mace and Yoda) can't even defeat a lame-o droid army. There "Maximum Power" is pretty feeble.

"Impresive" it ain't.

The X-Men would have done a heck of alot better. Magneto himself is more powerful than all the Jedi put together.

Aaron

Fine let's see, Magneto versus Jerec, assuming he has control of the VOTJ. (supernova with a passing thought) Now, have we done troll, goobye

Posted: **2002-08-27 10:55pm**

Lord of the Farce wrote:From SW canon: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignifigant next to the powers of the Force." (How exactly the Force is more powerful than turning a planet into roadkill is unknown, but there is much that is not known about the Force).

From SW EU: If I recall correctly, in one of the Young Jedi Knight books, a bunch of junior Jedi Knights combined their powers (I think by using one of those Massassi Temples as a focus) and whacked a bunch of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system (it's been years since I read it, so I could have some details messed up).

From SW EU: "... supernova of stars with a passing thought..." (From DF2: Jedi Knight, concerning what a person fully infused with power from the Valley of the Jedi can do).

As for Yoda in TESB seeming pretty damned weak, he was 900 years old and DYING, can't exactly blame him for not being able to jump around like in AOTC in his last days.

Actually the fleet of VSD's being driven out of the Yavin System was from the God-forsaken KJA books, the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

Posted: **2002-08-27 10:57pm**

NecronLord wrote:
Aaron2 wrote:In ATOC we see that a whole gaggle of Jedi, including two of the big boys (Mace and Yoda) can't even defeat a lame-o droid army. There "Maximum Power" is pretty feeble.

"Impresive" it ain't.

The X-Men would have done a heck of alot better. Magneto himself is more powerful than all the Jedi put together.

Aaron
Fine let's see, Magneto versus Jerec, assuming he has control of the VOTJ. (supernova with a passing thought) Now, have we done troll, goobye

And the Valley of the Jedi is only the power of about a thousand Jedi, so "Magneto himself is more powerful than all the Jedi put together" is a little premature.

Posted: **2002-08-27 11:00pm**

Talon Karrde wrote:Actually the fleet of VSD's being driven out of the Yavin System was from the God-forsaken KJA books, the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

My mistake. Though I wasn't that far off (and I did say "Star Destroyers", not ISDs)

Posted: **2002-08-27 11:08pm**

Well the NJO one was Luke moving the black hole, which has the densest matter known to man. Of course it'll wear him out. Also, I think that the Jedi who rely on the Force for guidance rather than power are like non-exercisers. They aren't used to the strain of using that much power, and it tires them, the same way our muscles tire. The benefit of this, though, is increased perception and relexes.

Posted: **2002-08-28 03:51am**

His Divine Shadow: You say three times in your post that you think KJA got dark force powers "right on the money". Yet you don't seem to provide any canon evidence to back up your statements. You provide examples from Traitor and quote the fact that "Sith Lords in the past destroyed suns". Buddy, you can't use examples from the EU to justify saying the EU is correct.

If you think KJA got force powers right on the money, then provide a canon example that suggests dark side users have as much power as KJA and other writers accredit to them. The most powerful think we ever see a dark side user do is shoot lightning. They don't blow up stars, they don't move ships. I would say that the reason Palpatine was able to destroy the Jedi is that he could "cloud" their vision, and the fact that he was so much more brilliant than them when it came to long term planning. That's it. I think that the most powerful use of the Force comes from the insight it provides a Jedi. Jedi can glimpse the future and manipulate the minds of men. The actual physical benefits the Force provides Jedi seems to be limited to honing reflexes, slightly improving physical performance and occasionally shooting lightning and moving an object the size of a star fighter.

[qoute="His Divine Shadow"]But it doesn't contradict anything here[/quote]

As Aaron pointed out, a band of Jedi were almost defeated by droids - many Jedi died, and they all would have died had they not been reinforced by regular soldiers (okay, so they're clones, but you get the drift). This was a desperate battle for the Jedi, it can be assumed that they would stretch their Force powers to the limit. There's your evidence that directly contradicts EU.

[qoute="His Divine Shadow"]You're also ignoring the dark side light side thing here[/quote]

Canon evidence:
Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no stronger. Only easier, more seductive."
Therefore, if we can assume that the powers shown by the Jedi will be roughly equivalent to the powers dark side users have.

I'm afraid that if we look at canon, the power provided by the Force to effect the physical world is very limited. The Force is powerful because it provides the Jedi with insight others don't have.

Darth Yoshi wrote:Well the NJO one was Luke moving the black hole, which has the densest matter known to man. Of course it'll wear him out

I find it hard to believe that the 'gravitic anamolies' are black holes. Putting a black hole in the middle of a battlefield would probably tear up the entire planet. But that's irrelevant to this argument, so I won't harp on about it.

BTW, why can't we edit posts? It's very annoying.

Posted: **2002-08-28 03:52am**

See? If we had an edit button, I would have been able to go back and spell "quote" correctly.

Posted: **2002-08-28 04:08am**

Editing is not a feature because it stops people from changing what they say later on- standard trolling shield.

As to this Jedi powers thing, its a mixed issue:

a- the AOTC (not ATOC, btw) arena battle shows the Jedi fighting hopelessly outnumbered against droids- now, if they could do half the things that the EU attribute to them, why not have combined their powers and simultaneously force pushed every droid (smashing their moving parts, which is what was happening in both TPM and AOTC), disabling good portions of the enemy in one stroke? That's one thing I can think of.

BUT

Mace Windu and Yoda comment on how their powers have diminished. Escape clause for the EU right there. Also, as Mike Wong makes a good case for on his AOTC discussion- the Jedi arrogance of which Yoda speaks is self-evident- they charged right into a hopeless situation and fought like idiots against superior numbers- their judgement was clearly clouded (or is Mace Windu playing for the other team? Who knows....) and had their numbers severely diminished as a result- exactly as Palpatine wanted.

So we have a pretty solid escape clause for the EU:

- Jedi powers diminished
- Jedi arrogance

Posted: **2002-08-28 04:24am**

I have a better explantion for the X-wing incident; Yoda wasn't lifting the X-wing off of the planet, he was lowering the planet from under the X-wing.

Posted: **2002-08-28 04:26am**

His Divine Shadow: You say three times in your post that you think KJA got dark force powers "right on the money". Yet you don't seem to provide any canon evidence to back up your statements. You provide examples from Traitor and quote the fact that "Sith Lords in the past destroyed suns". Buddy, you can't use examples from the EU to justify saying the EU is correct.

You haven't proven anything so lay off already.
It's official, approved by Lucasfilm, end of discussion.
The movie and Vader agrees on this too.
And I sure as heck can and will use examples from the EU whenever I want to, and it sure works too because it elaborates on what we see in the movies(Like why it was hard for yoda to lift the x-wing, how the jedi use the force and so on), hence removing these made up contradictions.

As Aaron pointed out, a band of Jedi were almost defeated by droids - many Jedi died, and they all would have died had they not been reinforced by regular soldiers (okay, so they're clones, but you get the drift). This was a desperate battle for the Jedi, it can be assumed that they would stretch their Force powers to the limit. There's your evidence that directly contradicts EU.

As the troll Aaron rambled on about, he was first trolling like a big fat bitch, what lame-o army? There where thousands of droids with powerfull weapons and a few dozen Jedi, WTF do you think is gonna happen? How many of these where even full Jedi knights?
And it's talking about Jedi, not Sith.

Canon evidence:
Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no stronger. Only easier, more seductive."
Therefore, if we can assume that the powers shown by the Jedi will be roughly equivalent to the powers dark side users have.

No you can't, you rely on Yoda being infallible, wich he is not, infact Yoda believes to be correct, because the Jedi have imposed their limited human views on the force, but the force is much more.

Traitor and Vision of the Future already elaborated on this, and so far no contradiction has occured, big suprise there, Lucasfilm CHECKS AND APPROVES these books before they are allowed to be sold.

I'm afraid that if we look at canon, the power provided by the Force to effect the physical world is very limited. The Force is powerful because it provides the Jedi with insight others don't have.

I'm afraid that if we look at canon, I'm right and you're wrong, and I got all the evidence to fit without any contradictions, therefore I win by default.
And it looks like the whole SW universe is in disagreement with you too.

And your fanbased speculation on the force = nothing when compared to both canon and official facts.

The force is powerfull because it gives the users supernatural powers of all kinds

Now, these are the canon and official facts of the SW universe, if you do not recognize them, fine, I'll just leave because in my eyes you won't actually be talking about the "real" SW universe but some homemade version of it.

Posted: **2002-08-28 08:12am**

Excuse me, do you even know what canon means? Canon refers to the films, the novel adaptations of the films and the radio dramatisations of the films, in that order. That's it, nothing else. The rest of the Star Wars 'universe' is considered official, but not canon. Anything official that contradicts canon should be considered to be irrelevant for the purposes of an argument. If the books contradict the movies, the movies take precedence. Now I didn't make this up three minutes ago, this has been an axiom amongst people who want to seriously discuss the Star Wars universe since before the Net was even around. Okay? So now lets look at your so-called evidence.

His Divine Shadow wrote:As the troll Aaron rambled on about, he was first trolling like a big fat bitch, what lame-o army? There where thousands of droids with powerfull weapons and a few dozen Jedi, WTF do you think is gonna happen? How many of these where even full Jedi knights?
And it's talking about Jedi, not Sith.

Here it is, in black and white (or blue and white). You say yourself that the Jedi are not powerful enough to defeat a droid army. You reason that there were 'only a few dozen Jedi' and that many may not have been full Jedi knights. Remember that, occording to your precious EU that a group of about a dozen Jedi apprentices managed to propel an entire Star Destroyer out the Yavin system. As Vympel, points out however perhaps their powers were reduced by the Sith. I find it hard to believe that their powers could be reduced so much, but that's not the point. But the most important thing you say comes here: "And it's talking about Jedi, not Sith", implying that the Sith probably could have dealt with the situation better than the Jedi. We'll get to that in a second. BTW, Aaron may be considered to be a troll, I haven't been here long enough to know. But he raises a valid point and calling him a "big fat bitch" is just pointless.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I'm right and you're wrong, and I got all the evidence to fit without any contradictions, therefore I win by default.

I'm afraid that you have certainly failed to convince me. You have cited examples from the EU as evidence, I have countered with canon examples that strongly oppose your EU evidence, and then you haven't really countered any of my arguments at all. Let me elaborate:

Your main argument to counter the fact that the Jedi do no have the powers described in the books seems to be based around the fact that the Sith have far greater Force powers than the Jedi. You have said, for example, that Sith could destroy stars and that Kyp Durron's powers were severely curtailed by his return to the light. These are 'official' examples but that's all right if it doesn't conflict with canon. You also say:

His Divine Shadow wrote:No you can't, you rely on Yoda being infallible, wich he is not, infact Yoda believes to be correct, because the Jedi have imposed their limited human views on the force, but the force is much more.

First of all I am not relying on Yoda being infallible. I just assumed that because Yoda is supposedly the wisest and most powerful Jedi ever that he would know what he is talking about. He certainly believes that, with training, Luke could rival the Emperor in power. But never mind, for the sake of argument we'll go on.

If the Sith are so much more powerful than the Jedi why didn't Dooku absolutely wipe the floor with Yoda when they battled? It wasn't even an even match - Yoda would probably have defeated Dooku if the battle had gone on much longer. If the Sith are so powerful that they can destroy stars why did Dooku, in effect (by retreating), lose the battle with Yoda?

In addition, why do we never see these super Sith Force powers from the greatest Sith of them all, Palpatine? Why does Palpatine choose to sit back and try to convert Skywalker with the power of his will rather than simply blast him into a million pieces? Why does the Emperor consider Luke Skywalker, not yet even a Jedi, a threat, if the Sith are so supremely powerful?

Let's take another example, Darth Vader. Why does Darth Vader, who also presumably has these magical star-destroying abilities, lose a battle to Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)? Why, when Vader's chasing the Millenium Falcon does he not simply pluck it out of space with his super telekenetic powers? Surely, if he is so powerful, he can. Old, dying, Jedi Yoda can manage to lift an X-wing out of a bog so why can't super-Sith Darth Vader move the Millenium Falcon?

Let's look at the last Sith, Darth Maul. Obviously, he's only an apprentice, so he probably can't blow up a star yet, but surely he can beat a lowly Jedi? But wait, no! Not only is he defeated by a Jedi, but he is defeated by a Jedi who is unarmed, and hanging onto a peg for dear life. If he's much more powerful than lowly Jedi then how is that he is defeated? You might say that Obi-Wan distracted him with a mind trick as Obi-Wan jumped out of the pit, but how can such an all-powerful Sith be distracted by a simple mind-trick?

I'll tell you how. THE SITH ARE NOT ANY MORE POWERFUL THAN THE JEDI. There's your canon evidence above. Now, either reasonably rationalise each and every one of the above arguments with canon evidence to the contrary or I'm afraid that you have one big glaring contradiction with 'official' evidence.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I'm right and you're wrong, and I got all the evidence to fit without any contradictions, therefore I win by default.

You haven't yet got the above evidence to fit. Remember, you can only counter with examples from the movies, because the movies override any and all other literature.

His Divine Shadow wrote:You haven't proven anything so lay off already... The movie and Vader agrees on this too.

Agree on what? That I haven't proved anything? May I suggest that you elaborate a little more on what you mean? All that I have proven is that most of the EU descriptions of Force abilities are invalid for an argument about the 'maximum power' of the Jedi.

His Divine Shadow wrote:It's official, approved by Lucasfilm, end of discussion

Of all your reasoning I find this the most laughable. Do you have any idea how many out and out mistakes there are in a lot of 'official' literature. Have a trawl through Bob Brown's site (http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/), and see how many things official literature has got wrong through combinations of ignorance, laziness and poor research. The Millennium Falcon page is good. I assume you've been to Curtis Saxton's site. Read the arguments about the size of the Executor? Then compare the generally accepted figure for the size of the Executor (17.6 km) to the ones stated in official literature (usually about 8 km). "End of discussion", I think not.

His Divine Shadow wrote:And your fanbased speculation on the force = nothing when compared to both canon and official facts

I believe I have sufficient canon evidence in this post and in my previous posts to discredit the descriptions of the Force provided in much of the EU. I have provided evidence and sustained arguments to back up my reasoning. And the most important thing is that my "fan-based speculation", where it is speculation, is preceded by "I think". You don't have to think the same way, though I do believe my 'speculation' is logical. You're most welcome to provide counter-arguments.

Responses to other people:

consequences:

Vympel: As I outlined above I doubt that the Jedi would have had their powers diminished by such and extraordinary amount. But perhaps they did, who knows? It still doesn't change the fact that there are many, many other examples where the supposedly powerful Sith do not show any of their supposed power.

Talon Karrde: sorry about the Darksaber remark. I don't how I came up with that. Which book had the Knight Hammer engaging the Home One? How did that battle end? I seem to recall some kind of Jedi intervention.

P.S. I can understand that it may be important for people to not be able to go back and change something they said, but I find the inability to edit mistakes after I re-read a post (see the quotes thing in my previous post) very irritating. Oh well, nothing I can do about it, if the admin has made its desicion. That's the last I'll say of it.[/i][/quote]

Posted: **2002-08-28 08:13am**

Excuse me, do you even know what canon means? Canon refers to the films, the novel adaptations of the films and the radio dramatisations of the films, in that order. That's it, nothing else. The rest of the Star Wars 'universe' is considered official, but not canon. Anything official that contradicts canon should be considered to be irrelevant for the purposes of an argument. If the books contradict the movies, the movies take precedence. Now I didn't make this up three minutes ago, this has been an axiom amongst people who want to seriously discuss the Star Wars universe since before the Net was even around. Okay? So now lets look at your so-called evidence.

His Divine Shadow wrote:As the troll Aaron rambled on about, he was first trolling like a big fat bitch, what lame-o army? There where thousands of droids with powerfull weapons and a few dozen Jedi, WTF do you think is gonna happen? How many of these where even full Jedi knights?
And it's talking about Jedi, not Sith.

Here it is, in black and white (or blue and white). You say yourself that the Jedi are not powerful enough to defeat a droid army. You reason that there were 'only a few dozen Jedi' and that many may not have been full Jedi knights. Remember that, occording to your precious EU that a group of about a dozen Jedi apprentices managed to propel an entire Star Destroyer out the Yavin system. As Vympel, points out however perhaps their powers were reduced by the Sith. I find it hard to believe that their powers could be reduced so much, but that's not the point. But the most important thing you say comes here: "And it's talking about Jedi, not Sith", implying that the Sith probably could have dealt with the situation better than the Jedi. We'll get to that in a second. BTW, Aaron may be considered to be a troll, I haven't been here long enough to know. But he raises a valid point and calling him a "big fat bitch" is just pointless.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I'm right and you're wrong, and I got all the evidence to fit without any contradictions, therefore I win by default.

I'm afraid that you have certainly failed to convince me. You have cited examples from the EU as evidence, I have countered with canon examples that strongly oppose your EU evidence, and then you haven't really countered any of my arguments at all. Let me elaborate:

Your main argument to counter the fact that the Jedi do no have the powers described in the books seems to be based around the fact that the Sith have far greater Force powers than the Jedi. You have said, for example, that Sith could destroy stars and that Kyp Durron's powers were severely curtailed by his return to the light. These are 'official' examples but that's all right if it doesn't conflict with canon. You also say:

His Divine Shadow wrote:No you can't, you rely on Yoda being infallible, wich he is not, infact Yoda believes to be correct, because the Jedi have imposed their limited human views on the force, but the force is much more.

First of all I am not relying on Yoda being infallible. I just assumed that because Yoda is supposedly the wisest and most powerful Jedi ever that he would know what he is talking about. He certainly believes that, with training, Luke could rival the Emperor in power. But never mind, for the sake of argument we'll go on.

If the Sith are so much more powerful than the Jedi why didn't Dooku absolutely wipe the floor with Yoda when they battled? It wasn't even an even match - Yoda would probably have defeated Dooku if the battle had gone on much longer. If the Sith are so powerful that they can destroy stars why did Dooku, in effect (by retreating), lose the battle with Yoda?

In addition, why do we never see these super Sith Force powers from the greatest Sith of them all, Palpatine? Why does Palpatine choose to sit back and try to convert Skywalker with the power of his will rather than simply blast him into a million pieces? Why does the Emperor consider Luke Skywalker, not yet even a Jedi, a threat, if the Sith are so supremely powerful?

Let's take another example, Darth Vader. Why does Darth Vader, who also presumably has these magical star-destroying abilities, lose a battle to Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)? Why, when Vader's chasing the Millenium Falcon does he not simply pluck it out of space with his super telekenetic powers? Surely, if he is so powerful, he can. Old, dying, Jedi Yoda can manage to lift an X-wing out of a bog so why can't super-Sith Darth Vader move the Millenium Falcon?

Let's look at the last Sith, Darth Maul. Obviously, he's only an apprentice, so he probably can't blow up a star yet, but surely he can beat a lowly Jedi? But wait, no! Not only is he defeated by a Jedi, but he is defeated by a Jedi who is unarmed, and hanging onto a peg for dear life. If he's much more powerful than lowly Jedi then how is that he is defeated? You might say that Obi-Wan distracted him with a mind trick as Obi-Wan jumped out of the pit, but how can such an all-powerful Sith be distracted by a simple mind-trick?

I'll tell you how. THE SITH ARE NOT ANY MORE POWERFUL THAN THE JEDI. There's your canon evidence above. Now, either reasonably rationalise each and every one of the above arguments with canon evidence to the contrary or I'm afraid that you have one big glaring contradiction with 'official' evidence.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I'm right and you're wrong, and I got all the evidence to fit without any contradictions, therefore I win by default.

You haven't yet got the above evidence to fit. Remember, you can only counter with examples from the movies, because the movies override any and all other literature.

His Divine Shadow wrote:You haven't proven anything so lay off already... The movie and Vader agrees on this too.

Agree on what? That I haven't proved anything? May I suggest that you elaborate a little more on what you mean? All that I have proven is that most of the EU descriptions of Force abilities are invalid for an argument about the 'maximum power' of the Jedi.

His Divine Shadow wrote:It's official, approved by Lucasfilm, end of discussion

Of all your reasoning I find this the most laughable. Do you have any idea how many out and out mistakes there are in a lot of 'official' literature. Have a trawl through Bob Brown's site (http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/), and see how many things official literature has got wrong through combinations of ignorance, laziness and poor research. The Millennium Falcon page is good. I assume you've been to Curtis Saxton's site. Read the arguments about the size of the Executor? Then compare the generally accepted figure for the size of the Executor (17.6 km) to the ones stated in official literature (usually about 8 km). "End of discussion", I think not.

His Divine Shadow wrote:And your fanbased speculation on the force = nothing when compared to both canon and official facts

I believe I have sufficient canon evidence in this post and in my previous posts to discredit the descriptions of the Force provided in much of the EU. I have provided evidence and sustained arguments to back up my reasoning. And the most important thing is that my "fan-based speculation", where it is speculation, is preceded by "I think". You don't have to think the same way, though I do believe my 'speculation' is logical. You're most welcome to provide counter-arguments.

Responses to other people:

consequences:

Vympel: As I outlined above I doubt that the Jedi would have had their powers diminished by such and extraordinary amount. But perhaps they did, who knows? It still doesn't change the fact that there are many, many other examples where the supposedly powerful Sith do not show any of their supposed power.

Talon Karrde: sorry about the Darksaber remark. I don't how I came up with that. Which book had the Knight Hammer engaging the Home One? How did that battle end? I seem to recall some kind of Jedi intervention.

P.S. I can understand that it may be important for people to not be able to go back and change something they said, but I find the inability to edit mistakes after I re-read a post (see the quotes thing in my previous post) very irritating. Oh well, nothing I can do about it, if the admin has made its desicion. That's the last I'll say of it.[/i][/quote]

Posted: **2002-08-28 08:15am**

Grr, double post. Again I have to apologise. I hate double posts, but 56k connections are killers.

*resists urge to say something about editing posts*

Posted: **2002-08-28 03:12pm**

Vympel wrote:Editing is not a feature because it stops people from changing what they say later on- standard trolling shield.

As to this Jedi powers thing, its a mixed issue:

a- the AOTC (not ATOC, btw) arena battle shows the Jedi fighting hopelessly outnumbered against droids- now, if they could do half the things that the EU attribute to them, why not have combined their powers and simultaneously force pushed every droid (smashing their moving parts, which is what was happening in both TPM and AOTC), disabling good portions of the enemy in one stroke? That's one thing I can think of.

BUT

Mace Windu and Yoda comment on how their powers have diminished. Escape clause for the EU right there. Also, as Mike Wong makes a good case for on his AOTC discussion- the Jedi arrogance of which Yoda speaks is self-evident- they charged right into a hopeless situation and fought like idiots against superior numbers- their judgement was clearly clouded (or is Mace Windu playing for the other team? Who knows....) and had their numbers severely diminished as a result- exactly as Palpatine wanted.

So we have a pretty solid escape clause for the EU:

- Jedi powers diminished
- Jedi arrogance

Thank you someone actually took those comments as they were mean to be.
So many people did see that concetion and assumed that the Jedi were just a bunch of pussies (which I know is not true). Esp. on the SB.com boards.

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