Develop a cruiser that can defeat an Star Dreadnought

[Dark Primus]

I have been playing with an idea if there is a a possibility to develope a Star destroyer size heavy cruiser by using various weapons technologies that has been presented in Legend canon from comics, books etc and use them to the best effective way possible to defeat a Star Dreadnaught.

I have heard and looked at various Wookiepedia sources and found some interesting weapons tech that maybe can contribute to do so and I think such ship may be possible.
I think the best defence such a ship would have to be equiped with cloak or stealth in order to hide itself from the Star Dreadnought's sensors and give it first strike capability. But the main problem here is once the cruiser fire its weapons it would give away it's location, so a simple cloak wont do it. So it would need some kind of weapon delivery system that enemy sensors would be unable to detect and trace.

So one idea is using torpedoes or missiles equiped with stealth materials that would render sensors impossible to detect, then maybe we are on the right track.
Say using torpedoes with stealth tech like this for example: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/StealthX
But do proton torpedoes or concussion torpedoes onboard capital ships have enough yeild to be a threat to a Star Dreadnaught? You obviously would have to use lots of them.

Looking through wookiepedia I do find some interesting torpedoes, this one for exemple; http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MGI-A_proton_torpedo
Some kind of shield piercing torpedo, but its from the Old Republic era, don't know if modern shield tech can stop them.

Another potential torpedo; http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-33_plasma_torpedo

What other technologies exists could be useful in this scenario? And do you think it's possible to develop such ship?

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't really like kitbashing one-off EU/Legends munchkin systems.

Stealth systems are hard to come by in the SW mainstream, at least capital-grade stealth stuff. Smaller craft like Maul's Infiltrator and the Phantom can get away with jamming, countermeasures and stealthy low-observable stuff but not cloak. Obviously it is expensive, I don't know if it can be translated to really-small torpedoes and missiles, especially since those would require speed and engine outputs would compromise their stealth... unless speed is forsaken, like low-observable anti-ship and cruise missiles in real life... I guess this is why ISDs and other cap-ships have TIE fighter screens...

The same low-observable tech is probably hard to transfer to larger craft - their sheer size, energy output, heat-emissions, etc. must make sensor/signal-masking too hard.

I'd really like to imagine stealth or low-observable tech has limitations in the SWverse.

Anyway, for an anti-dreadnought cruiser... my suggestion would be to fix it with a mini-superlaser. I don't mean a planet-cracking one. But like, the cruiser is just a mobile gun-platform for a dedicated anti-capital ship weapon. Maybe even a single, focused weapon. Like a ship-sized SPHAAT laser. A kilometer-long SPHAAT array!

Or an enlarged ion-cannon that can do to the dreadnought what the planetary ion cannon on Hoth did to that ISD. The coup de grace can be landed by missiles or by escorting fighters/corvettes/frigates/destroyers/capships.

This makes the cruiser a gun-platform, forsaking speed, stealth, armor and shielding for sheer firepower and range, all focused on its anti-ship weapon. It'll wait for the dreadnought to come within range and hopefully its dedicated weapon can outrange that of the dreadnought. This means it'll be crap against fighters. If the dedicated anti-dreadnought superlaser or ion cannon is not turret-mounted, if it is... axially-fixed, then it might also be lousy against formations of sub-capital ships, like frigates and corvettes.

So the gun-platform would have to have its own escorts (as mentioned beforehand) as it is a very rock-papers-scissors kind of platform. It has to be used in a combined-arms context, within the larger "system" or body of other vessels working together.

But that's how weapons work IRL anyway.

Aside from killing dreadnoughts it would also be good for killing Golan-class defense stations and even shielded bases like that in Hoth, if it can pound away at the shields while remaining out of range of planetary weapons systems, like the ion cannon. That's if its focused-weapon allows it more range than ISDs and dreadnoughts and other normal capships. It'll be... Space Artillery!

[Sea Skimmer]

Anti ship gun in a literal sense. You could just attach the ship pieces directly to the gun barrel, with a reactor and fuel tank between the engines and the gun. Fire one shot at the enemy reactor, if it fails you also salvo a bunch of missiles to hit the weakened zone.

The Tarkin superweapon from the comics was kind of like this but rather big. The only logical counter will be even bigger space battleships! Always bigger with the battleships to overcome all tactical challenges.

[Adam Reynolds]

If you are talking about Legends, cloaks are double blind, so you would have just as hard of a time hitting the destroy as it would have htting you. Executor class vessels were also often equipped with crystal gravfield trap sensors designed to detect cloaked ships, so all that means is that you would be unable to see them while they fired at you.

The mini-Malevolence idea is probably among the better ones, though that would still require a very lucky hit and the ability to engage the enemy in battle, which was a major problem in the Wraith Squadron novels.

Another idea is just massed fighters. New-canon offers the idea that it is possible to fly under shields, but even in the old canon, fighters could often deliver disproportionate damage against larger ships, as it was all three times the Rebels or New Republic took down Executor class vessels in the EU/films. Maybe combine the ion canon that makes heavy use of capacitors that allow it to charge in advance with a carrier design that outnumbers the Executor's mere 144 fighters with a large number of overpowered strike craft like B-wings, with enough A and X-wings to keep the TIEs busy. Do enough damage with your opening shot that your fighters can then engage with their heaviest weapons in closely and get lucky, hoping for a result similar to what happened at Endor. Ideally engage near something that it could accidentally crash into.

[Shroom Man 777]

Multiple fighters or other maneuverable craft dropping seismic charges in precise locations to catch the target craft in the intersections of the 2-dimensional blast waves. It might not work on superheavy capships but... who knows?

[Shroom Man 777]

Asteroid mines - if your base is in an asteroid field, the typical super-dense Star Wars asteroid field - then there can be a weaponized equivalent of the trick Han Solo did with the Falcon, where a masked debris-disguising charge or a few dozen/hundred just drift and some adhere themselves on the blind spot of the large enemy ship. Instead of detaching when the ISD does a garbage dump, the thing detonates during an opportune moment.

Tangent:
Hell, I bet the density of SW asteroid fields is, in some cases, some ancient cleverly-engineered thing where some guys used gravity projectors to really carefully align asteroids to be so close as to be hazardous but... their positions are also likewise calibrated so it won't be too disastrous for the people in the asteroid fields, so the asteroids won't fuse into a larger body, etc. Some weird gravity-well mumbo-jumbo Feng Shui... done with insane calculations or even Force-sensitive Asteroid Gardeners.

If that ancient Infinity Empire could arrange the Corellia system, why not, eh?

[The Romulan Republic]

Anyway, for an anti-dreadnought cruiser... my suggestion would be to fix it with a mini-superlaser. I don't mean a planet-cracking one. But like, the cruiser is just a mobile gun-platform for a dedicated anti-capital ship weapon. Maybe even a single, focused weapon. Like a ship-sized SPHAAT laser. A kilometer-long SPHAAT array!

Or an enlarged ion-cannon that can do to the dreadnought what the planetary ion cannon on Hoth did to that ISD. The coup de grace can be landed by missiles or by escorting fighters/corvettes/frigates/destroyers/capships.

The latter, as someone else already noted, is pretty much exactly along the lines of the Malevolence's main weapon in The Clone Wars- it would be interesting if Malevolence had taken on a dreadnought so we could see how effective its main guns would have been.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

I hate to mention the Galaxy Gun, but a weapon that fires missiles through hyperspace would eliminate the need for stealth. Equip each round with a miniature version of the Bakuran anti-interdiction system for good measure.

[Shroom Man 777]

The latter, as someone else already noted, is pretty much exactly along the lines of the Malevolence's main weapon in The Clone Wars- it would be interesting if Malevolence had taken on a dreadnought so we could see how effective its main guns would have been.

The Malevolence itself was dreadnought-sized, wasn't it? Was it a self-sufficient combatant or was it just based on that weapon while other aspects of combat were handled by other vessels?

The concept is similar but I'm thinking more of Skimmer's lines, a stripped-off ship that's just there to be wrapped around one honking gun.

[The Romulan Republic]

I seem to recall that it was officially classified as a heavy cruiser. Its certainly not Executor or Eclipse-sized.

And it certainly seemed self-sufficient in combat. I don't recall it ever having escorts- it operated as an independent raider (though I actually think that if one is applying real world naval designations to it, "battlecruiser" would probably be the best bet). It was very durable and carried star fighters and anti-fighter weaponry (quite effective too) in addition to its primary weapons, just going off what I recall from the show.

Anyway, for an anti-dreadnought cruiser, I'm thinking massive ion canon with mini-superlaser for a one-two punch, or if that isn't practical, massive ion canon followed up by torpedo spam.

[Adam Reynolds]

It was also sufficiently well armored that it was rather difficult for the Republic to take down even after it was crippled and left without shields by a fighter attack from Anakin and his squadron against the main weapon.

The plot seemed to be somewhat based upon the British efforts to sink the Bismark.

[FTeik]

You want a Munificient-class frigate with a cloaking-device.

Regarding cloaking-device from what we learn in TPM and TESB it is more likely for large ships to have cloaking-devices, not small ones. The Terror was an Executor-class Dreadnought with a cloaking device.

[Eternal_Freedom]

IIRC corectly there was a modified ISD-II called Conqueror (I think) that mounted a superlaser, so it can definitely be done, that should give you a hefty punch against dreadnought shields.

Also...shudder...Darksaber shows what is basically a stripped-down DS with just a superlaser and power systems. If it worked it would have been exactly what the OP is looking for.

[Galvatron]

I'd be interested to see how a star dreadnought would fare against a planetary ion cannon. We saw an ISD disabled with one or two shots, but an SSD is so much larger that it may actually be able to remain functional after sustaining several.

[Adam Reynolds]

IIRC corectly there was a modified ISD-II called Conqueror (I think) that mounted a superlaser, so it can definitely be done, that should give you a hefty punch against dreadnought shields.

Also...shudder...Darksaber shows what is basically a stripped-down DS with just a superlaser and power systems. If it worked it would have been exactly what the OP is looking for.

Darksaber never actually worked, and it is questionable as to whether it ever could have even with a group that was actually intelligent involved in its construction. The Death Star wasn't as large as it was merely to have defensive weapons and to serve as a base, it was that large because that is the level of power needed for it to function.

It was also destroyed by an Nebulon-B frigate and a Dreadnaught(the old EU one that was actually the size of a frigate), so it would never actually hold up to something Executor sized. God that story was garbage.

I'd be interested to see how a star dreadnought would fare against a planetary ion cannon. We saw an ISD disabled with one or two shots, but an SSD is so much larger that it may actually be able to remain functional after sustaining several.

I suspect that was actually their purpose, to have the ability to take on planetary defenses and win, while star destroyers could be easily disabled. It would also help explain why they were less effective at Endor, because their shields and weapons were optimized for planetary bombardment first and fleet actions second. Though it also presumably never fully engaged the Rebel fleet at Endor.

[fractalsponge1]

Totally agreed on sieges. The more I look at SW ships there more I'm convinced this is why Star Dreadnoughts exist. If the Rebel Alliance could manage a single weapon that could mission kill an ISD, what would Corellia be able to field? Single large ship loses shield strength, but a smaller ship simply gets destroyed. The large ships would be critical for any kind of siege against a major world. That said, is there any evidence that shields are "tuned" for turbolaser vs ion fire?

[Eternal_Freedom]

IIRC corectly there was a modified ISD-II called Conqueror (I think) that mounted a superlaser, so it can definitely be done, that should give you a hefty punch against dreadnought shields.

Also...shudder...Darksaber shows what is basically a stripped-down DS with just a superlaser and power systems. If it worked it would have been exactly what the OP is looking for.

Darksaber never actually worked, and it is questionable as to whether it ever could have even with a group that was actually intelligent involved in its construction. The Death Star wasn't as large as it was merely to have defensive weapons and to serve as a base, it was that large because that is the level of power needed for it to function.

It was also destroyed by an Nebulon-B frigate and a Dreadnaught(the old EU one that was actually the size of a frigate), so it would never actually hold up to something Executor sized. God that story was garbage.

The guy who built Darksaber (or designed it anyways) was the same guy who designed the DS superlaser and other bits, Bevel Lemelisk. He seemed pretty convinced it would work, if it were properly built which was it's major problem.

Even with that failure, the Conqueror example still stands, as it was built and test-fired against a small planetoid. It may not be planet-shattering level firepower, but it is apparently able to "crack a continent in half" or destroy "a small moon." Certainly enough to put a lot of hurt on a Dreadnought.

[Galvatron]

If the Rebel Alliance could manage a single weapon that could mission kill an ISD, what would Corellia be able to field?

I would love to see your 3D model of such a weapon.

Are you ever going to show us a Mandator?

Even with that failure, the Conqueror example still stands, as it was built and test-fired against a small planetoid. It may not be planet-shattering level firepower, but it is apparently able to "crack a continent in half" or destroy "a small moon." Certainly enough to put a lot of hurt on a Dreadnought.

Catalyst featured an experimental superlaser mounted on a star destroyer, although it was described as only using two beams. Perhaps the Conqueror is what the Qaz-class star destroyer is supposed to look like.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hadn't heard of that one. So yeah, it seems pretty clear that scaled-down DS superlasers can be mounted on destroyer-scale ships (though more successful on Dreadnoughts (Eclipse, Sovereign)). That seems to fit the bill for the small ship to kill massive ship OP.

[Galvatron]

I doubt the testbed superlaser was meant to become a dreadnought-killer since it was still only as powerful as the combined weaponry of another conventional star destroyer class. Here's a passage from the book comparing the size of the prototype to the preliminary design of the Death Star's superlaser:

“It’s obvious to all of us that a superlaser of the sort we’re postulating would dwarf any present ship of the line, even the largest of the dreadnoughts. For a weapon fifty times the size of our prototype, the collimator shaft alone would have to be on the order of eight thousand meters in length.” She laughed in nervous incredulity. “And that doesn’t factor in the dissipaters, capacitors, or even the amplification crystal housing itself.”

[Elheru Aran]

It might not have been a dreadnought-killer outright... but if it had power similar to the Conqueror, it could still hurt a dreadnought considerably in one shot.

Also, eight thousand meters is eight KM. Executor was at least 12, if not 15, km, and IIRC there are even larger Dreadnoughts out there. Granted the majority seem to be less than that in size, but still.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough, I haven't read the book in question.

It does bring to mind an interesting question, can a destroyer-scale vessel generate enough power to hurt or kill a Dreadnought in short order? Even Ion Cannons need a lot of power (the Hoth gun being powered by essentially the guts of a Battlecruiser).

[Galvatron]

It might not have been a dreadnought-killer outright... but if it had power similar to the Conqueror, it could still hurt a dreadnought considerably in one shot.

I don't think ships like the Conqueror or the Sovereign or the Eclipse exist in the new EU. Catalyst made it pretty clear that there's more to a superlaser than just a big shaft.

It does bring to mind an interesting question, can a destroyer-scale vessel generate enough power to hurt or kill a Dreadnought in short order? Even Ion Cannons need a lot of power (the Hoth gun being powered by essentially the guts of a Battlecruiser).

Short order? I don't know about that, but the concentrated firepower of the rebel fleet at Endor seemed to do a good job of hammering the Executor and their ships weren't much larger than ISDs. Nor did they have a lot of them.

Still, I wonder if it wouldn't have survived if that A-wing hadn't crashed into the bridge.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It does bring to mind an interesting question, can a destroyer-scale vessel generate enough power to hurt or kill a Dreadnought in short order? Even Ion Cannons need a lot of power (the Hoth gun being powered by essentially the guts of a Battlecruiser).

Short order? I don't know about that, but the concentrated firepower of the rebel fleet at Endor seemed to do a good job of hammering the Executor and their ships weren't much larger than ISDs. Nor did they have a lot of them.

Still, I wonder if it wouldn't have survived if that A-wing hadn't crashed into the bridge.

That was an entire fleet of destroyer-scale ships, whilst this is meant to be one-on-one.

[Sea Skimmer]

Totally agreed on sieges. The more I look at SW ships there more I'm convinced this is why Star Dreadnoughts exist. If the Rebel Alliance could manage a single weapon that could mission kill an ISD, what would Corellia be able to field? Single large ship loses shield strength, but a smaller ship simply gets destroyed. The large ships would be critical for any kind of siege against a major world. That said, is there any evidence that shields are "tuned" for turbolaser vs ion fire?

Not that I can think of. When the ISD gets hit at Hoth the effect spreads over a wide area of the ship, so it might be that shields spread out ion cannon hits, but don't absorb the energy, while a turbolaser is just a space cannon trying to punch through in on spot. Ion cannons can't be all that more effective then turbolasers or else the ISDs and other ships would only mount heavy caliber ion cannon batteries. Instead of the ISD only had two big mounts. So something holds back that effect. It may be ion cannons are useless unless they completely overmatch the target, and don't degrade shields with less then critical hits.

The whole thing with 'fighters swarm capital ship' is the big Star Wars capital ships should easily be able to carry hundreds or thousands of fighters and maintain a CAP with them 24/7. The SSD could have as many TIE fighters on board as the damn Nazi Luftwaffer had planes to attack the British with in 1940 if they packed them in enough. It could also have thousands of point defense guns, though one might assume that might actually hit some kind of cost competition with huge hangers full of small craft.

Also logically something like an SSD in real life sanity would just carry around large 'boats' to help cover it's vulnerable butthole and such while it's not at action stations. Something like the old EU Lancer Frigate or such that could just fit into the hanger well to go into hyperspace with. If its 19km long it doesn't have to limit itself to a TIE bomber. Just some of the bigger Imperial shuttles and landing vehicles might make serious space to space patrol combat weapons if they've got armament the way the Trade Federation LSTs did.

This also means as a counter, dedicated heavily armored SPACE FIRESHIPS would totally be a go too option against a target the city of a CITY with no gravity to save it from the power of spamming explosions. The crew could be droids or silly volunteers with some kind of escape shuttle mounted aft behind a frontal armor shield.