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For me I'll have to say Legacy of the Force more specifically Revelations. I felt dirty reading it at the time but I just wanted oh so desperately to like it.

I selected Other, as the worst offender, Dark Empire, wasn't on the list.

I had to go with Legacy as well, just barely edging out NJO and the Crystal Star. NJO did have the Force Heretic novels(particularly Remnant)to its credit, while the overacring story for Legacy was just so badly put together, more so than even Crystal Star.

Worst of all, Legacy reduced Tahiri to comic relief, and gave Mara and, especially, Pellaeon, deaths unworthy even of a redshirt.

Fortunately I was mostly able to avoid most of the worst parts of Legends, out of this list only having read Darksaber and a couple NJO books.

In the Batan era, it is interesting in that you can divide it into two categories, the pointless stories that are bad and the important stories that are bad. In the pointless category, you have Crystal Star, the New Rebellion, and two of the Callista stories. In the important but bad category, you have KJA's four, including the Jedi Academy trilogy and Darksaber. Writing about Luke recreating the Jedi Order and the unification of the Imperial warlords, as well as the possibility of someone like the Hutts taking advantage of the power vacuum were interesting concepts. It is too bad the execution of said concepts was horrible. I, Jedi managed to at least be a decent version of both plots, even if Corran has issues as a character.

The New Jedi Order was a largely terrible idea with occasionally good execution. The idea of an extra galactic invasion of Star Wars is one of those things that is as bad as it sounds in terms of premise. Merely based on the premise I consider it one of the worst stories, but the execution was often less bad than others from this list.

Legacy of the Force was a close contender for the worst, as it had rather problematic portrayals of the Jedi and just plain bad writing, but at least it didn't portray those who executed Jedi as heroes. In particular there was the plot in which Jaina had to train with Mandalorians to defeat her brother, rather than brushing up on her Jedi abilities as one would think. For all of The Force Awakens flaws' at least it hasn't done this.

Fate of the Jedi is largely just a continuation of the problems with Legacy, to the point at which few actually bothered to read it. I don't even know what occurred in those books and never bothered to find out.

In the end, my vote goes to Republic Commando. Justifying Order 66 in the way that she did was horrible. While I have some problems with the control chip arc in Clone Wars, and how it makes the Jedi even less intelligent than the prequels do, the overall idea is vastly superior, as it also makes the clones victims. It would have even been fine if they simply avoided the revelation that Dooku was Tyranus.

Elements of the NJO were pretty cool. A galaxy wide invasion is a new concept and one that has the potential to be epic

But the basic setup is inherently problematic. Especially with things like the Vong being Force blind and their use of bio-wank crap as a replacement for technology. Both of those are inherent betrayals of the setting of Star Wars. It simultaneously hurts the fantasy and science fiction parts at the same time.

It also has the problem that it lead to the argument by fans that the Empire was less bad than the New Republic, as they would have had the military force to take on the Vong. And they truthfully had a point.

It wasn't necessarily a horrible concept in general, but it was a horrible concept for Star Wars.

The Yuuzhan Vong could have been made to work, if they had not been both Force-blind and used their specific approach to biotech. A better way might have been to have them build machines out of biological matter; similar to how spider silk is used to create body armour. Their basic building block would be Yorik Coral, with the Shapers using the Force to manipulate it at the atomic or subatomic level to give it the properties they need. Their dirty secret, of course, would be that they had to examine conventional technology in order to figure out what they needed.

I was torn between voting Jedi Academy Trilogy and the Young Jedi Knights series, but they have the same author and much the same problems. I found Daala sympathetic when first reading as a teenager, but she was badly handled on the whole; a supposedly brilliant tactician who kept losing due to insanely bad luck, or for reasons that don't make sense. Worst of all was the loss of the star destroyer Hydra when the Sun Crusher rammed its bridge, causing it to fall into a nearby Black Hole. Did it have no backup bridge? The Sun Crusher itself was ridiculously over-the-top; or at least its nigh-inpenetrable armour was.

Reyvan wrote:I selected Other, as the worst offender, Dark Empire, wasn't on the list.

Agreed. DE undermined the impact that TTT should have had. KJA made it worse when his trash took over Dark Horse and Bantam to steer the EU is his preferred direction for several years during the 90s.

You have the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy but not The Force Unleashed as a poll option? I mean, BFC had its problems but Gary Stukiller was a blight upon the franchise, ruining core concepts of the OT era with his very presence and need to be shoehorned in as UBER IMPORTANT to everything. Also the idiotic idea of the Rebellion capturing Darth Vader, ever, for any reason.

Sure the Lando b-plot was pretty much a self indulgence by the author, and the Luke's mom thing ultimately went nowhere except a dues ex machina for the ending, but it was nowhere near as bad as what TFU did.

But I picked the Traviss Clone novels, mostly because of Order 66. I mean, TFU is a close second but O66 was just...blegh. I'd almost also go with LotF just for Traviss' crap - especially Jaina's Mandalore Adventures - but I'm sure Allston's stuff was good as usual and I guess Denning was tolerable? IDK I never actually read that series.

RogueIce wrote:But I picked the Traviss Clone novels, mostly because of Order 66. I mean, TFU is a close second but O66 was just...blegh. I'd almost also go with LotF just for Traviss' crap - especially Jaina's Mandalore Adventures - but I'm sure Allston's stuff was good as usual and I guess Denning was tolerable? IDK I never actually read that series.

Was that the one which started the idea that Order 66 was made possible because of super secret brain chips?

Gandalf wrote:

RogueIce wrote:But I picked the Traviss Clone novels, mostly because of Order 66. I mean, TFU is a close second but O66 was just...blegh. I'd almost also go with LotF just for Traviss' crap - especially Jaina's Mandalore Adventures - but I'm sure Allston's stuff was good as usual and I guess Denning was tolerable? IDK I never actually read that series.

Was that the one which started the idea that Order 66 was made possible because of super secret brain chips?

No, that was The Clone Wars cartoon. Which is Canon and thus irrelevant to this thread.

(also I like the brain chips shut up)

I'd like to give an honourable mention to Tales of the Bounty Hunters. Apparently the DSII was controlled by a largely unstoppable murderbot!

RogueIce wrote:No, that was The Clone Wars cartoon. Which is Canon and thus irrelevant to this thread.

Ah. I had it in my head that the idea appeared earlier in one book or another.

(also I like the brain chips shut up)

no *NT's old arms crossed emoji*

Adam Reynolds wrote:Justifying Order 66 in the way that she did was horrible.

Forgive my ignorance or possibly mental block, but how did she justify Order 66. I'm having vague memories of reading Dooku started the war in revenge for the Jedi wiping out the Mand'ohs but am unsure if thats real like or just fantasy made up to make her look bad during the whole Fandalorian affair.

On topic, I picked Crystal Star because it didn't have anything really redeeming about it. Waru, the kids, the eponymous crystal star, the plot, the villain, everything was terrible. The villains plot was dumb, the threat while thankfully not galaxy threatening I don't think was weak still, and the decision to focus on a bunch of 5 year olds was odd to say the least. It was one of those books that was only readable when there was very Star Wars books out, when fans were desperate for anything Wars.

Legacy of the Force had a few interesting concepts like the former Rebels and Imperials working together and what friction that brought, the lingering mistrust of the Jedi from the Clone Wars and then decades of propaganda, and whether or not someone of the Skywalker line could exceed Anakin as a whiny idiot. Anything interesting was of course massively overshadowed by more Daala crap, the stupid deaths of beloved characters, a story line that sucked, and the whole thing coming at and seeming to be the end result of a terrible period of Star Wars EU. Plus people kept getting it confused for the FAR superior Legacy comics.

The Traviss books had interesting concepts too. The exploration of the until then barely explored Mandalorians as a culture despite the fact they were supposed to be extinct, exploring some of the clones, and both in universe and IRL the distrust people had for the Jedi. Her stupid warrior wank obsession that she goes for in other series too (though thankfully she didn't have rape farms in Star Wars, that I'm aware of), her inflating the importance of the Mandalorians, her stupid Klingon wannabe but not even a 8th as smart mostly English with a few changed words including Brit slang Mand'oh language, her obsession with trying to paint the Jedi as evil, her obsession with always being right to the point of threatening bodily harm on people, and her ability to make ARC Trooper no longer be cool really killed any cool concepts.

Honestly I was almost tempted to pick the Dark Nest books for being the worst. They were terrible, so terrible I stopped reading halfway through the second and pretty much haven't picked up another Star Wars book to actually read since then. However it seems unfair to judge them so terribly considering I was in a state of wanting to give up on the whole EU when I read them, disgusted by the recent novels I read, disgusted by the fan community tearing itself apart, just generally tired of all the hate and stupidity. Some books about bugs fighting blue people just was the final nail in the coffin but the coffin was already constructed.

The Crystal Star is arguably worse in a qualitative sense than Legacy of the Force, but I can just ignore the Crystal Star. Same thing with the Dark Nest trilogy, Callista stories, or the Black Fleet Trilogy. Like, they were bad, but you can excise them from the continuity with essentially no loss. There's no substantive plot or character development. They're glorified crisis of the week episodes.

LotF, on the other hand, butchered a lot of what had come before in a way that killed a lot of my interest in the post-RotJ EU. It also seemed to have a terrible problem with feuding authors who largely ignored each other's work (witness KT's repeated attempts to make the Mandalorians relevant). For that it wins the coveted Be'sk'arr' medal of "Worst Thing in the EU".

NJO was, as said, mostly crap but had quite a few redeeming bits, and I give it points for ambition. They tried to tell a story about a grueling, galaxy-wide war against incredibly alien invaders, and they tried to actually show that war instead of giving us a few montages of people fighting before the heroes blow up the superweapon and proclaim victory. That's incredibly hard to do well. Plus, I have a high tolerance for crap if you put 'Star Wars' on the cover. The biotech thing didn't really bother me so much. I know a lot of people here get a bug up their ass about it, but fuck it. It's space opera. It's science fiction in name only.

KT's stuff... Hard Contact is perfectly serviceable and actually offers an interesting perspective on the Clone Wars. Triple Zero is much the same, though it contains warning signs of things to come. After that, she just goes completely off the rails. Fortunately, it seems that no one paid any attention to her efforts to revise canon.

After I read the Traviss novels, I honestly couldn't understand why so many fans had such a huge beef with them. Maybe it's because I sense that she, like me, is a prequel hater. If so, I imagine that probably influenced much of her writing and her depiction of the Jedi.

I never read LotF. I gave up with the old EU after the New Jedi Order arc finished.

I rather enjoyed parts of the Black Fleet Crisis, especially the chapters focused on new characters in battle situations.

Galvatron wrote:After I read the Traviss novels, I honestly couldn't understand why so many fans had such a huge beef with them. Maybe it's because I sense that she, like me, is a prequel hater. If so, I imagine that probably influenced much of her writing and her depiction of the Jedi.

With the caveat that I haven't read any of her books (and refuse to do so on principle), I think a lot of the beef isn't with her books, or the moronic Guide to the GAR, but with her personally, particularly her reacting to fairly mild criticism by openly fantasising about ripping people's tracheas out.

I rather enjoyed parts of the Black Fleet Crisis, especially the chapters focused on new characters in battle situations.

Indeed, in terms of thinking about how (as opposed to how much) interstellar warfare would actually happen, given the technology available to the New Republic, BFC is one of the best.

Captain Seafort wrote:With the caveat that I haven't read any of her books (and refuse to do so on principle), I think a lot of the beef isn't with her books, or the moronic Guide to the GAR, but with her personally, particularly her reacting to fairly mild criticism by openly fantasising about ripping people's tracheas out.

Fair enough, but I wanted to have an informed of her work irrespective of the controversy surrounding her character flaws. Maybe it was my low expectations going in, but I found myself enjoying her work much more than I expected to.

NJO for me.

This is where I literally stopped reading Star Wars books anymore. I suffered through most of the early works and to my credit I DID read all of the NJO.

I found the concept interesting and decidedly fresh from the usual Empire wannabes trying to fight the Republic rehash. The execution though and the elaborate story that got crapped out was just atrocious.

Aliens that are immune to the Force - I can accept that but the way it spiraled and finally ended was awful.
If they want to try and retcon the Force into being a scientific thing which TPM already kinda did then someone being immune is a valid premise to explore.Alternatively, if the Force is Magic then most settings DO have concepts of creatures that can be immune and / or resistant or the people wielding them do not fully understand them. This is also a feasible premise. The major issue is the books rarely explore this premise other than treat it as a plot shield.

Aliens that use magic bio-tech - I can accept that but not when it was wanked beyond belief.

Empire justification - I kinda liked this concept as an intellectual exercise but some of the books stray into almost being the writers trying to use the Vong to retcon the Empire into being the good guys.
I can see the point that a highly militaristic Empire with legions of Star Destroyers and Death Stars would give the Vong a different kind of run for their money and potentially beat the Vong in the direct military engagements.
However, one of the awesome bits of the NJO I read was a discussion between Imperials that basically ended with one dude saying that if the Empire got beaten by the Rebels then it does not put the best light on the Empire standing up to the Vong. The only addition I would add to that comment would be how much shit Palpatine and his Empire would inflict on the galaxy in the 30 years before the Vong arrived.

Intellectually, 30 years is long enough for numerous rebellions to form and the Empire to fall into even worse state with internal corruption. Not to mention all those pocket monsters waiting to be opened the expanded universe created over those 30 years.

Traviss used the argument that Order 66 was a lawful order from the chain of command and clones followed it as they should. Which is the same argument the guards at Nuremburg used. It would have been fine if it were tied in with the point in Attack of the Clones that clones were more obedient than normal. So when Palpatine grants his position as commander in chief, clones follow any order he gives, including the one to wipe out the Jedi. But instead she tried to argue that the clones were actually justified.

Personally I am now partial to the control chip idea, as it allows the clones to also be victims. The downright heroic way they were portrayed in Clone Wars largely required something like this. It also is quite reasonable as a Jedi trap, as it lures in the Jedi with the trustworthy, loyal, and heroic clones, before unleashing the control chips that turn them into mindless servants of Palpatine's grand plan. It also allows some of them to survive the war and support the Rebellion in the early days.

There was also the idea that the Jedi were onboard with making the war look bigger than it was, relating to the fact that she argued in favor of a mere three million clones. Ironically this is something that is actually closest to accurate in Clone Wars, in which the Jedi did indeed cover up both the control chip issue and that Dooku helped give them their army, hoping that they could win the war and expose the Sith before their machinations came to pass. Had Anakin made a different choice they might have actually been correct in their assessment.

NJO had some great philosophical elements and Traitor Destiny's Way Final Prophecy Unifying Force are great

Didn't even make it through the NJO so I wouldn't know the stuff that came past that and never read DE but for the stuff I have read Crystal Star easily takes the cake. KJA's work was bad and the Black Fleet Crisis was...uneven, at best, but Crystal Star was 'you gotta be fucking kidding me' bad.

Adam Reynolds wrote:Traviss used the argument that Order 66 was a lawful order from the chain of command and clones followed it as they should. Which is the same argument the guards at Nuremburg used. It would have been fine if it were tied in with the point in Attack of the Clones that clones were more obedient than normal. So when Palpatine grants his position as commander in chief, clones follow any order he gives, including the one to wipe out the Jedi. But instead she tried to argue that the clones were actually justified.

Well, after all her books noone would buy "clones will follow any order because of genetics and training". She understandably made clones normal humans, with all that comes with it, like emotions, relationships, questions and doubts.

And TCW did the same, but instead pretending that Cody would recieve the order and... I guess think "finally, justice, Jedi scum, you deserve to die for what you did to me and my brothers!", just like all the other clones who executed the order without half a second of hesitation, they went with a believable explanation - clones are normal human beings, but they were forced to execute the order, they had no control.

Adam Reynolds wrote:Traviss used the argument that Order 66 was a lawful order from the chain of command and clones followed it as they should. Which is the same argument the guards at Nuremburg used. It would have been fine if it were tied in with the point in Attack of the Clones that clones were more obedient than normal. So when Palpatine grants his position as commander in chief, clones follow any order he gives, including the one to wipe out the Jedi. But instead she tried to argue that the clones were actually justified.

Not to defend Traviss but I would think that they were justified in following Order 66, atleast legally. It was a, as far as they knew, lawful order from their commander in chief. They didn't know Palps was a Sith, that his "kill your Jedi commanders" order was anything other then what he tried to justify it as, a Jedi Rebellion he had to put down.

The problem with the biochips is it seems to just be Order 66 and thats it. Not the general list of contingency orders we had from the old EU. It made more sense to me to be a whole list of "what if" orders that Clonetroopers were taught to obey. It was as far as anybody knew just a order that could be used in the event of a Jedi falling to the dark side or defecting to the Seps, they just didn't know it could be broadcast to everyone.

I think removing the choice of following the order, having it just be a chip in their heads, really removed one thing that was very interesting about the Clones. They followed the order, they killed their friends, not because of malice or anything (unless Traviss was writing it) but because they had orders. Really gives them later pathos when they realize they had been duped, that they were still victims but victims of a Sith plot where they were nothing but pawns. They thought they were soldiers fighting for the Republic, safeguarding it from the Separatists and then the Jedi, but no, they were puppets (though not literal puppets) tricked into murdering their friends and comrades.

With no choice in the matter there is no tragedy of their actions (well beyond the obvious dead people), they didn't do it, it was a droid inhabiting their body that did it, they didn't actually kill their friends as it was someone else that technically pulled the trigger. Clones who followed orders would if they ever figure out the Jedi Rebellion was a lie be looking for redemption. Other Clones would be haunted by the what if, what if their Jedi wasn't rebelling, what if they waited to confirm the order. Some Clones could have even chosen not to follow the order thinking it was mistake or a Sep trick.

Giving them the choice I think makes them far more human and interesting. They weren't mindless servants but thinking people breed for an awful singular purpose that sadly they followed unthinkingly.

The biochip just leaves them too squeaky clean.

Joun_Lord wrote:Giving them the choice I think makes them far more human and interesting. They weren't mindless servants but thinking people breed for an awful singular purpose that sadly they followed unthinkingly.

The biochip just leaves them too squeaky clean.

I agree with that. It removes the one thing that made the clones really interesting.

I assumed that they made it "biochips" because someone at Lucasfilm realised that they had essentially made a whole merchandise empire based on a group of space SS soldiers.

Batman wrote:Didn't even make it through the NJO so I wouldn't know the stuff that came past that and never read DE but for the stuff I have read Crystal Star easily takes the cake. KJA's work was bad and the Black Fleet Crisis was...uneven, at best, but Crystal Star was 'you gotta be fucking kidding me' bad.

Unifying Force and Traitor were actually damn good. Unifying Force was the Swan Song the old heroes SHOULD have gotten.