Another lightsaber varient

[Chris Parr]

Well, really a couple that go together so well they work as one—



The rapier and main gauche. Two fast and maneuverable blades that can block and attack, and absolutely deadly in the hands of a master swordsman.

Hey, they already have lightfoils, or at least they did in EU, so why not this? Besides, it would add to Star Wars swashbuckling appeal.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Lightsaber shotos (think Yoda's saber used by a human-size being) already exist in the old EU - Luke and Mara use them in their other hands, plus normal sabers, to fight Lumiya and her lightwhip.

[Chris Parr]

Yeah, all right.

[The Romulan Republic]

And Ashoka uses the shoto on occasion in the new canon, I believe.

[Sea Skimmer]

Since lightsabers have an edge everywhere, and never appear to have problems breaking or bending most of the differences in swords are irrelevant from the get go. The point of a rapier was to be a light thrusting sword to deal with gaps in armor for example, this is totally irrelevant as a distinction with lightsabers. Its purely down to how long a blade you want, which would certainly depend on the height and reach of the user.

[Shroom Man 777]

Doesn't Dooku use a very conservative pseudo-fencing like style? I mean barring the whatchamacallit, handguard, a "lightsaber rapier" just depends on how the user uses the weapon.

Rapier-style would make a lot of sense for the weapon. No need for huge swings, the energy-blade will cut through anything with minimal pressure. Unless it's something heavy like a blast door. But for cutting people to pieces, eh.

[The Romulan Republic]

Doesn't Dooku use a very conservative pseudo-fencing like style? I mean barring the whatchamacallit, handguard, a "lightsaber rapier" just depends on how the user uses the weapon.

Rapier-style would make a lot of sense for the weapon. No need for huge swings, the energy-blade will cut through anything with minimal pressure. Unless it's something heavy like a blast door. But for cutting people to pieces, eh.

I vaguely recall reading somewhere back in the day that Dooku's style was supposed to have been designed specifically for engaging other lightsaber users (unlike, presumably, the blaster-wielding enemies who were most Jedis' main concern).

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes. Form 2, Makashi duelist or whatever.

If the weapon can damage the target with minimal "pressure" or force or impact (which sabers can, at least against the usual duel opponents... a droid covered in blastdoor-thick layers of durasteel might be another matter lol) then the wielder doesn't have to draw/load/chamber the weapon so much before a strike or a thrust. Compared to a blunt force weapon or an axe or say swords vs. armored opponents in real life. Wrist movements would work, even. That's how fencers do it. And in the case of a laser blade that can melt through anything, I think point-style "first hit" fencing would work really well. The blade will slide straight to the guy's brain or heart. Jeez.

At least those are my extrapolations from my experiences with the exact opposite thang - using blunt-force beating-sticks... that have more in common with machetes than rapiers when you swing em... (even though our footwork and body mechanics seems to have a lot in common with European fencing and knife fighting... but I think these are due to universal body mechanics and angle issues as well as assimilation). Even then there are tricks with the wrist, light strikes, meant for vulnerable areas that can be damaged without too much force (i.e. flicking the stick so its end thwacks the person's facial features... flicks or quick poke-like thrusts to the throat or other soft parts).

EDIT:

In this respect, Rey's movements would be the smarter way to wield it. Finn's would be less efficient... but probably draws from whatever experiences he's had with non-lightsaber melee weapons, like TRAITOR!!! space-tonfas, vibroblades, clubs, whatever.

Though in the OT, the props WERE heavy and the original lore stated that lightsaber hilts were heavy and the generators that produced the blade were whirry and the fluctuations with the energy blade itself (which might have had mass?) and the generator's internal components meant that they were unsteady... and so each swing required more "commitment." Unlike Dooku-style movements reliant on a relatively light hilt...

I guess one would have to use force and pressure when parrying enemy blades or when the lightsaber blades "stick" as they tend to do... but overcommiting, telegraphing and such is dangerous.

In these situation, large gross movements are unrecommended, this is when tactile weapons interaction resembles some Wing Chun or jiu-jitsu-like exercised in finesse and flexibility and reactivity. Being like water.

But on the other-other hand, large gross movements do work for HEMA and kendo/samurai-stuff.

*shrug*

[The Romulan Republic]

Their's also the fact that, as I recall, Dooku's actor, Christopher Lee, was a fencer in real life.

[Shroom Man 777]

^ Made some edits.

[The Romulan Republic]

Very interesting.

I do have to say as well that, while I'm not sure how it would hold up in the eyes of someone more knowledgeable about actual swordsmanship, I did quite like the duelling in The Force Awakens. Stylistically, it felt like a nice middle ground was found between how duels were depicted in the Original Trilogy, and how they were handled in the Prequels, being more energetic and making use of what they could do with the effects, but not being excessively flashy and instead focussing more on the drama and characters. Not quite as good as the Empire Strikes Back and RotJ duels, which to me are still the gold standard, but quite well-done.

[Shroom Man 777]

TFA's sword fights were, IMO, better than anything in the Prequels. Cinematography wise... and I mean Rey and Kylo's blows had more anticipation and worry and shit, rather than that preposterous scene in ROTS where Obi-Wan and Anakin were having epileptic seizures spinning around for a whole minute before finally striking at each other... ugh.



But yes, a gauche or dirk or dagger or whatever on the off-hand, one that can strike at the enemy when the blades are locked, or even one that can manipulate the enemy's weapon (without fear of having a limb melted off by the enemy's lightsaber) would be great.

Which is what dual-saber wielders do too, I presume.

They *do* use Hollywood-ized Filipino martial arts in the SW films. In AOTC... it was cringey but whatever.

SW: Rebels had some good scenes with disarms and I do love it when they use their off-hands to punch the other guys when they lock blades. We do that too. Imagine how that would be if they had gauches/dirks/whatever on their off-hands. Like that scene in Game of Thrones, season 1, where the Lannisters attack the Starks at King's Landing and where Jaime Lannister duels one of the Stark bannermen and lock blades before suddenly stabbing the guy in the face with a dagger... (FYI: In Filipino martial arts, the off-hand punching, grabbing, clawing, elbowing, etc. evolved from off-hand use of light blades... which I presume is sort of connected with shields/bucklers in the even-more-distant-past... and this changed when people no longer came at each other with swords or machetes, resorting to bludgeoning each other with clubs and fists...).

EDIT:

I think European fencing practitioners and even European knife fighting aficionados (if they still exist) might also cringe at Filipino weapons techniques that have evolved from blades to impact weapons in combination with hand to hand combat, striking and grappling. Some street mutt pidgin creole of classic blade techniques and Wing Chun or Krav Maga style pugilism. In contrast to the older "thoroughbred" kennel club methods.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmmm... I would like to see from *where* the initial Jedi forms drew their techniques from, what pre-lightsaber arts and methods. Or, post Jedi Order or something, what non-lightsaber techniques inherited mutated/adapted versions of saber forms there were in the distant past.

Like, where did Chirrut Imbwe draw his techniques from? Those red-clad Imperial Guards, how do they use their pikes? Etc.

And what do the Jedi teach their padawans about combat without lightsabers? After being disarmed or after disarming someone but... with the need to restrain them without cutting them down (er sure holding the saber at someone's face or using the Force would work), or at super-close distances or when undercover when pulling out a laser sword is a no go?

Is there more where Mace Windu's SHAOLIN BUDDHA PALMS! came from?

[The Romulan Republic]

TFA's sword fights were, IMO, better than anything in the Prequels. Cinematography wise... and I mean Rey and Kylo's blows had more anticipation and worry and shit, rather than that preposterous scene in ROTS where Obi-Wan and Anakin were having epileptic seizures spinning around for a whole minute before finally striking at each other... ugh.

The Obi-wan vs. Anakin duel had some amazing visuals, music, and stunts, but it was too over the top at times, yeah, and it sapped some of the drama from what should have been one of the most powerful scenes in the franchise. And even I know that it was sloppy swordsmanship.

Best PT duels, I think, are:

Kenobi and Qui-Gon vs. Maul (silly plot-contrivance barriers to separate Qui-gon notwithstanding). Mostly down to the fact that it has entertaining choreography and good music without being too over the top.

Yoda vs. Dooku. Partly for how badass Yoda is, and partly for just how unexpected it was at the time to see His Muppetness fight like that. Plus, again, it wasn't too overdone. A nice, short, cool scene.

Honourable mention for Yoda vs. Palpatine, despite the cringe-worthy dialogue and the fact that its intercut with the Mustafar duel.

I particularly love the image of Palpatine tossing the Senate pods at Yoda. Its a wonderful visual metaphor- Palpatine is literally tearing democracy apart and throwing the pieces at Yoda.

[Shroom Man 777]

I can excuse the ridiculousness because these are superhuman guys throwing space magic at each other.

I mean, as long as the storytelling is good, they can go full on CROUCHING RANCOR HIDDEN SAARLAC at each other and fly around and tip toe on space water or flutter in low-gravity while Ang Lee makes incredible visuals. Fine with me maaan.

Imagine a forbidden Sith technique where Maul palm thrusted Qui Gon or hit the pressure points of his midichlorians and paralyzed him and left him with like a minute before his heart exploded. He'd give Obi-Wan some moving final words before dying horribly.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, perhaps I'm wording this wrong.

Its not so much that the fight scenes are implausible, as it is that sometimes they got... well, cartoony. And gratuitous.

Superhuman people doing superhuman things (within the parameters established by the franchise)? Sure.

People doing goofy things in what is being played as a dramatic scene? That can be done well, but it is hard to do well, and Lucas, by and large, didn't do it well in my opinion.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, I get that and I got what you mean, which is why I said in itself superhuman shenennigans isn't bad. Yeah, it's bad pacing, bad storyline, bad acting, bad dynamics within that scene that makes it really crappy.

Quentin Tarantino and RZA should direct a Star Wars movie. THE MAN WITH NEUTRONIUM FISTS.

I mean even a "realistic" fight would be shit with bad storytelling elements. Shakeycams so SUPER SECRET AGENT with AMNESIA kills ENEMY ASSASSIN with rolled up newspaper or something. So tacticool.

[Lord Revan]

I wonder if the lightsabre fight styles developed from katana style solid blade and thus have so much in common with kendo and such. Also I wonder if what early lightsabers looked like might had something to do with how fighting styles developed.

I dunno how it is in current canon but in legendaries early versions of lightsabers needed external power sources linked to the saber via a cord so that might have limited earlier lightsabers to 1 per user making defensive 2-handed styles prefered since your reach was limited by the cord anyway both to length and the need to protect the cord and once it was figured out how make internal powersources the no real need to change as the 2-handed style worked just fine and both Jedi and Sith aren't organizations that want to change their traditions if they don't have to. Also Jedi and Sith are pretty much the only ones who know how to make and use lightsabers so there wouldn't be much presuare outside of those organizations to change things.

[Shroom Man 777]

Plus the emitter's weight and plus defense against blasters movement would be different (and thus more energetic to cover more angles) than more conservative one-on-one sword duelings. Plus lightsaber... "sharpness" might have not always been as cutty as it is in the "modern" galaxy. Imagine duller ancient sabers, a blade of plasma that can't fully cut through a body, so you've got that burning hot plasma halfway through your torso. Or slowly melting through the vibroblade axe that one of those pig-men wield. The Jedi having to force the saber through the axeblade and into the enemy's face. Maan.

[Chris Parr]

Nearly forgot about this one.



Yeah, it looks like there was a rapier style lightsaber out there after all. At least in the AU.

[Shroom Man 777]

What's the major deal here anyway? There's an extra chunk of metal around the hilt near the emitter, big deal. Especially when it comes to weapons that can cut through durasteel like butter.

It's not even rapier style at all. "Rapier style" implies a characteristic of the blade itself! A piece of circular metal around the emitter doesn't mean anything. Jesus.

[Chris Parr]

Yeah, you're right. It could be a "cutlass style lightsaber" for all of it. Sorry.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think basing it on what the hilt is like... is pretty eh. I mean the blade is made of energy. In real life I bet the hilt and handle characteristics stem from what the blade is like, the characteristic of the pointy ends and sharp bits. So it totally doesn't apply to lightsabers. Or at least the equation is different.

Perhaps this is why the default lightsaber is so... sparse in features. To accommodate whatever style the individual user prefers. And to avoid telegraphing anything to the opponent.

Very zen.

[Lord Revan]

lightsaber hilts aren't only spartan to the extreme in design generally speaking (there's pretty much no features that aren't needed there) but also round in cross-section unlike most other swords, which are either teardrop, oval or rectangular (with rounded corners) in cross-section. in real-life swords hilts are the way they are to make it easier to feel the way the blade is orientented so that you have the sharp bits towards you opponent so that sword will cut rather the deflect.

it should also be noted that certain real life tactics like half-swording are outright impossible with a lightsabre due there being no "flat".

It should be noted that there's little practical purpose in adding a guard (except maybe a small lip to prevent the user from loosing fingers to his own weapon(s)) to lightsabre as there's no material in canon that could resist lightsabres and still be thin and light enough to be practical, cortosis is no longer canon as far as I know and even when it was the characteristics of that material were far from clear.

a lot of of the different styles of swords come from the limitations of the material. For the lightsabre those limitations don't matter though lightsabres would have their own set of limitations, and any sort of guard made from physical material would be most likely decortive rather then practical.

EDIT:also the length (at least max length) of a lightsabre could also be due to limitations of the tech, for example to get a longer blade then what we see in the films you might have to make a longer hilt.

[Shroom Man 777]

lightsaber hilts aren't only spartan to the extreme in design generally speaking (there's pretty much no features that aren't needed there) but also round in cross-section unlike most other swords, which are either teardrop, oval or rectangular (with rounded corners) in cross-section. in real-life swords hilts are the way they are to make it easier to feel the way the blade is orientented so that you have the sharp bits towards you opponent so that sword will cut rather the deflect.

Wonderful observation. Plus probably the different hand-shapes of species using sabers...

Eskrima sticks also lack shaping in the cross-section... I guess because they can represent anything... and it's cheap.