Well, as I've left the thread alone for a day and I've gotten no further input I'll finish up my analysis with the data I have available. I'll try to put it together in a neat, understandable, and organized manner.
Just as a general overview and redux of the thread:
I posted a sci fi theory about "how" a typical shielding system in the Star Wars universe would operate. A great majority of my information seemed to be on target, but as per Illuminatus Primus' suggestion, I did additional research to touch up on some minor details. Some minor issues pointed out needed to be fixed, but I'm happy to say a great majority of the theory held up under those who gave input.
Specific Issues brought up by thread contributors:
The Momentum Ruling over Energy question:
Illuminatus Primus brought the issue to my attention about a specific contingency where an object with high momentum (such as an asteroid) might be more dangerous to a shield than a high energy turbolaser bolt with relatively low momentum:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:... I recommend taking a look at Wong's analysis [directly below] of shield technology and specifically note how high-momentum, low-energy impactors can overwhelm great shields.
Michael Wong wrote:Now here's where it gets interesting: what if the shield generator's projected forcefield is easily strong enough to decelerate the asteroid to zero before the moment of impact, but the four little red blocks aren't strong enough to hold the generator in place? Guess what: the shield generator will be torn from its moorings, and the rock will slam into the ship. This is where momentum can rule over energy; a low-momentum, high-energy weapon such as a laser might not be as dangerous to a shielded vessel as a high-momentum, low-energy physical impactor. In this scenario, the potential points of failure are the shield generator itself, the points where it is mounted to the vessel, and the structure of the vessel itself. In other words, the mounting brackets, bolts, welds, shield generator internal mechanisms, shield generator forcefield strength, and all other connecting bits are parts of a chain through which reaction forces must go in order to make the end-to-end connection between the ship and the impactor. It can be thought of as a chain, and as in any chain, it is the weakest link that will cause your downfall.
I had not considered the contingency that an otherwise powerful shield might be threatened by the impact of a large low-energy mass against it's shield plane. His Divine Shadow, however, brought up a thought about momentum. He said, in another thread, that he thought it was impossible to absorb and turn into something else, if he recalled correctly. In response, I posted a question which used the analogy of an automobile:
Marc Xavier wrote:Well, I was thinking, a real life automobile converts the energy of a chemical reaction (combustion, explosion), into a mechanical energy which in turn imparts a change in velocity to the car, increasing it's momentum (net effect, the car moves forward). Would it be impossible for a mechanism to exist that behaved somewhat the opposite, converting momentum into another form of energy, such as heat to be absorbed by the shield capacitors?
I never received an answer to this question, so I take it that nobody knows at this point. If there
were a way to convert the force exerted on a shield emitter from a "high-momentum, low-energy physical impactor" into another form, such as heat, it would eliminate a potential weakness in Star Wars shield design. I discovered a quote from the novel
Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon that I suggested might possibly indicate such a mechanism, although admittedly it was not a very strong link.
Marc Xavier wrote:"A pair of fighters streaked by, spitting fire. The Falcon's shields glowed and pulsed, absorbing the energy, feeding it into the reactors. There were limits to the amount that could be absorbed that way - in which case the reactor would come apart, taking the ship and everything within a thousand kilometers with it - but for now, each unsuccessful pass fed the Millennium Falcon's engines. And her guns."
Although it's very likely that "absorbing the energy" refers to the Falcon's ray shields processing the weapon energy from the passing starfighters, could it also be referring to some other process that converts the momentum as well into some other form of energy?
The Same Dissipation Matrix question:
Illuminatus Primus brought an additional issue forward about ray and particle shielding both feeding into the same capacitor system.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Both particle and energy shields discharge energy into the same dissapation matrix.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Though it is interesting that both particle and energy shields feed into the same dissipation. This means even if the energy shields are totally overloaded by beam fire, that the particle shields will also collapse even if they were not being heavily assailed.
This was more of a clarification rather than an actual change to the dynamics of my Imperial Deflector Shield Operational Theory. A statement already existed within the document that alluded to this fact, and all I need to do is make it more clear, since Illuminatus Primus did not pick up on it.
Marc Xavier wrote:I'll have to add a line to the description making note of this. It shouldn't be difficult to integrate because this quote below alludes to something like it already:
Recently, an important alteration has been made to Imperial standard shield procedure and indeed the operation of shield technology altogether. It involved the integration of ray and particle shielding, such that particle shields could not be dropped during a battle situation in order to save energy reserves for weapons or extra ray shield capacity.
The "They work on a threshold" question:
Illuminatus Primus also mentioned one of the technicalities of shield operation, in that:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:They work on a threshold in watts. A SW ships' shields can safely radiate away attacks below or equal to its wattage threshold without shield loss.
If it exceeds the threshold, it degrades the shields' ability to withstand enemy fire, thus "damaging" the shield. The wattage threshold never changes, however.
This turned out to be a non-issue, however, as the theory had already stated:
Marc Xavier wrote:
"...when the amount of energy-per-second stressing the ray shields exceeds the amount of energy-per-second it is capable of dissipating, the capacitors soon overload and the shield falls."
Which was the same thing as Illuminatus Primus was pointing out.
The "Shields block ion cannons" question:
Illuminatus Primus also made the statement that:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Shields block ion cannons, and did in ESB. You can see the ion blast block at first. There's a link in the very front of this site.
After investigating the page he was referring to, I discovered that the Operational Theory actually held up. The ion cannon page makes the following statements:
The bolt sticks to the shield for a fraction of a second (as opposed to being deflected as turbolaser bolts are), then penetrates to the hull, and spreads over the surface of the hull in a chaotic fasion. This disproves the "common knowledge" belief that ion bolts are unaffected by shields, and pass through unhindered.
This image is a few frames later, when the new bolt in the image above hits. This is the instant of impact. The bolt is visibly striking the shield a few meters from the hull. This provides a possible scaling opportunity for the size of the bolt.
These statements support the part of the theory that reads:
Marc Xavier wrote:Ray shields do not effectively deflect the bolts of ion cannons, because ion cannon weaponry lacks an electromagnetic containment beam. Although the electrostatic planes of the ray shields do have some interaction with the charged particles of an incoming ion bolt, the fields are simply not designed to deflect a full on bludgeoning from a condensed packet of high energy ions.
I explained further on the point in the thread, tying in information from other official sources:
Marc Xavier wrote:If the ion bolt from ESB is sticking to the star destroyer's shield for a fraction of a second, this would be "some interaction with the charged particles of an incoming ion bolt." But since "the fields are simply not designed to deflect a full on bludgeoning from a condensed packet of high energy ions," it would penetrate and spread over the surface of the hull in a chaotic fashion as we see in the movie and as the Turbolaser Commentaries describes. This would also be consistent with what
The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology has to say about ion bolts:
"
...ships have no defense against them [ion cannons] short of reconfiguring their shields - and this would make the shields useless for absorbing standard laser blasts."
Emphasis added.
Reconfiguring the electrostatic repulsion fields in order to shield against ion blasts would make them incapable of blocking standard laser fire. Perhaps the way to shield against the ion blasts would be to thicken the electrostatic field, but as a trade off the field would suffer a decrease in strength per unit of space. The thicker field might be more effective in repulsing the charged particles in ion bolts, but a contained turbolaser couldn't be effectively deflected, split, or absorbed. And the
Star Wars Databank quote,
Starship deflector shields are projected just a few molecules underneath hull plating, but different power setting and configurations can extend a shield farther away from the hull.
indicates that the shields would indeed be capable of stretching away from the hull, so perhaps this is the "reconfiguring" that The EGWT is referring to.
I'm pleased to say the theory held. If anything, like with the "Same Dissipation Matrix question," I could improve the theory more by adding the information about
how ray shields can be reconfigured to block ion bolts.
The Shield Generator/Emitter Location question:
I saved the largest bit for last, because there was a lot of discussion on the point. This slice of the thread was touched off by the part of the shield theory that states:
Marc Xavier wrote:As touched on earlier, particle shields are designed to protect a ship from kinetic impacts (right); collisions with small asteroids, space debris, or even other vessels. These kind of shields are generally quite durable, but their generators must be kept very close to the surface of a vessel in order to properly operate.
Phongn brought up the minor point that:
Most here would argue that they're [that is, the shield emitters, are] deep in the ship. However, it's not incredibly important: if they were external, the shield generators would also protect themselves against fire.
I agreed with his general point as I thought it would be "entirely nonsensical to have a shield generator that itself was not protected by the shield that it emits." Although I pointed out some clarification that my theory did
not claim that the particle shield emitters are physically on the outside of the ship (hence, external), only that they are kept close to the surface, a point which the Mandel blueprints support.
But the first and largest objection to the theory's position was brought up by Illuminatus Primus:
Shield generators are located deep within ships, not near the surface.
I responded that I had "seen contradicting information on this point."
Some diagrams I've seen indicate they are in the large domes above the bridge (although it makes more sense to me that those are sensor globes), others that they are located in the trench areas on the aft areas of an ISD. What source are you referring from?
Illuminatus Primus informed me that he was referring from Geoffrey Mandel's 1978 blueprints and the Star Wars Episode 2 Incredible Cross Sections.
I was able to get ahold of the Mandel blueprints:
Picture 1,
Picture 2,
Picture 3, and
Picture 4.
Additional searching also yielded relevant information from
The Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels (1996):
ISD Blueprints,
Executor Blueprints.
Marc Xavier wrote:Also some additional information from EGVV:
ISD-72x
"this deflector shield generator dome was developed by Kuat Drive Yards, in an effort to reduce the need for secondary equipment on its Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The ISD-72x was designed to replace the Om-Thaim generators used on early versions of the Star Destroyer, and was virtually indistinguishable from the Om-Thaim model. A larger version of the ISD-72x was developed for use aboard the Super-class Star Destroyers."
The old "Om-Thaim" models are specifically known as Om-Thaim Broadcast Banner Shield Generators.
However, despite my requests, a scan of the relevant Ep2 ICS article(s) could not be found.
The Mandel blueprints indicated what it called "Forward Deflector Shield Projectors (4)" and "Aft Deflector Shield Projector P/S" located in the brim trenches of an Imperator Class Star Destroyer, near the surface of the ship.
Illuminatus Primus expressed his doubt that a star destroyer's shield generators were located in the dome structures on top of the command tower, making an argument considering a scene from Return of the Jedi:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:If we consider the scene in ROTJ, it makes no sense that taking out the generators could be possible unless the shields were already down. While the domes are probably senor domes (analysis of the Executor model showed identical domes scattered over the cortex) it is possible the bridge domes stored back-up shield generators or the bridge's shield projectors, thus when the A-Wings destroyed the dome(s?) it disrupted the crew's ability to bring the shields back on-line.
The other vessels, frigates, corvettes, Mon Cal cruisers, etc. do not have exposed shield generators and I doubt that the ISD and SSD would solely carry this trait if it was valid.
He did however acknowledge the point, in accordance with the Mandel blueprints, that:
However, the brim trenches probably due carry shield projectors, if not the generators themselves.
And this acknowledgement falls directly in line with the part of the shield theory I posted that states:
As touched on earlier, particle shields are designed to protect a ship from kinetic impacts (right); collisions with small asteroids, space debris, or even other vessels. These kind of shields are generally quite durable, but their generators must be kept very close to the surface of a vessel in order to properly operate.
The theory indicated that particle shield emitters need to be kept close to the surface, and that is exactly what the Mandel blueprints show. In addition to the harmony with the Mandel blueprints, the theory also lines up with the quote from the starwars.com
Star Wars Databank that says:
Starship deflector shields are projected just a few molecules underneath hull plating, but different power setting and configurations can extend a shield farther away from the hull.
And the blurb from
The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology that mentions:
These [the particle] shields greatly enhance a ships hull integrity by using energy charges to strengthen the molecular bonds of the hull plating.
Illuminatus Primus did mention however that:
The AOTC ICS shows the infamous Core Ships have deeply recessed shield generators.
I'm still waiting to get a look at this article, because I suspect that the "shield generators" in this article might actually be 1 of 3 things:
1. Independent power generators, separate from the main hypermatter reactor, that power the shield emitters.
2. Power core taps that actually siphon off energy from the main reactor and convert it to energy usable by the emitters.
3. The capacitor system that the emitters shunt energy to when they are impacted by high energy bolts.
Illuminatus Primus went on to site a video game source to support the idea of shield emitters located deep within a ship:
Also, according to the X-Wing computer game, after the Star Destroyer Devestator was eliminated, all shield generators were refitted to more deeply recessed points anyway, so even if the domes were related to shield generation, they are not anymore.
I indicated my hesitance to use a game source to set such a precedent and he responded with the following:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Anything that is completely within the game "gun range" "shield nature" "ISD speed" etc is considered game mechanics and not part of continuity.
However, this mission was from one of the historical missions of X-Wing, thus implying it was intended to tell a story about continuity, namely the destruction of the Devestator and the refit of the generators to more deeply buried locations.
Personally, I thought that was a stretch, as I was under the impression that game sources were not supposed to carry much weight (if any weight) in the Lucasfilm policy. When I looked up additional information on
X-Wing, I discovered that Curtis Saxton wrote that this specific game (the
X-Wing Collector's CD more specifically) could be "disregarded to the extent of its inconsistency with the films and the Return of the Jedi novelisation."
Given the fact that it was a game source, and was inconsistent with the Return of the Jedi novelisation (which is higher canon if I understand correctly), and contradicted the Mandel blueprints, (and the fact that the very same game refers to the domes as deflector shield generators) I did not feel especially inclined to lend it much credence here.
As such, the shield theory remains intact on this point, because it lines up with sources of higher Lucasfilm credence.
Overall, the sci fi theory held up very well against scrutiny and questioning, and further investigation into the official sources even served to further support it's ability to explain how Star Wars shields operate.
>> End of Support for "
Imperial Deflector Shield Operational Theory." <<
When I update the theory to reflect what I have learned here, I will post about it on this thread.
Now, it would have been possible to stop there, count up the accurate points on my theory, add one or two sentences to clarify and further explain some areas, and call it a day. However, there remained the point of the information presented in the
The Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels which seemed to contradict the Mandel blueprints information.
Although it is widely a non-issue here as the consensus seems to be that the command tower domes were, in fact, sensor domes in accordance with Mandel's information, since I had gone through the trouble of gathering so much information and data I thought I might try my hand at putting together a harmony of the various sources. So, here is a breakdown of the information I gathered, followed by a suggestion as to how to harmonize the information:
Source:
Imperator Star Destroyer Blueprints by Geoffrey Mandel (1978):
Picture 1,
Picture 2,
Picture 3, and
Picture 4.
The blueprints clearly indicate the presence of devices called "Deflector Shield Projectors" located near the surface of the vessel in it's trenches.
Source:
The Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels (1996):
ISD Blueprints,
Executor Blueprints.
The diagrams show no indication of deflector shield projectors in the trenches. However, they do indicate "Deflector Shield Generator" Domes on top of both the ship's command towers. The EGVV goes on to provide information about these "deflector domes." They are known as "ISD-72x" deflector shield generators, and were "
...developed by Kuat Drive Yards, in an effort to reduce the need for secondary equipment on its Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The ISD-72x was designed to replace the Om-Thaim generators used on early versions of the Star Destroyer, and was virtually indistinguishable from the Om-Thaim model. A larger version of the ISD-72x was developed for use aboard the Super-class Star Destroyers."
Source:
The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (1997):
These [the particle] shields greatly enhance a ships hull integrity by using energy charges to strengthen the molecular bonds of the hull plating.
This quote indicates that the particle shields use "energy charges" to strengthen the outer hull itself. This would be an easy feat to achieve if the particle generators were close to the hull, as the Mandel blueprints indicate, however, it's not too much of a stretch to see how this quote might also support the deflector dome theory as well. In either case, the emitter would be close to the hull.
Source:
X-Wing: The Bacta War:
"
A-Wings slashed in at the Lusankya. they flitted over the massive ship's surface, shooting concussion missiles at gunnery towers and sensor domes."
This EU novel seems to identify the globes as sensor domes rather than shield domes.
Source:
The starwars.com Star Wars Databank:
Starship deflector shields are projected just a few molecules underneath hull plating, but different power setting and configurations can extend a shield farther away from the hull.
As with the EGWT source above, this quote can be used to support either a Mandel interpretation of shield emitter locations or a EGVV interpretation.
"The Super Star Destroyer is one of the largest, most powerful Imperial vessels ever created. It follows the same basic dagger-shaped design of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers, but magnified to much larger scale. A smooth hull presents an arrowhead shaped profiled when viewed from above. Resting in the center of this hull is an "island" of habitable volume. Weapons emplacements bristle on the layered city-like surface. The trapezoidal command tower stands near the aft end of this island, capped with two geodesic communication and deflection domes. The underside is a busy network of engineering and superstructure. Thirteen colossal engine thrusters glow blood red as they push the immense craft through space.
Emphasis added. This blurb identifies the domes as "communication and deflection domes," indicating a dual purpose to the artifacts.
Source:
The Death Star Technical Manual:
The three shield projection towers emitted a covering field that protected the city sprawl from space debris and offered limited defense against ray weapons. Power cells, machinery, and shield operator stations were located in the building beneath the three towers.
Shield operation fell under the jurisdiction of Battle Station Operations. Officers, operators, and technicians were stationed here around the clock, keeping the shields above North 7: A68 in working order. In times of attack or other crisis, the shields were overlapped with those of the neighboring sprawls to create a continuous blanket of energy over the surface of the Death Star.
This quote indicates the presence of "projection towers," indicating some form of Imperial particle shielding (and limited ray shielding) that relies on raised towers on the Death Star's surface.
Source:
Champions Of The Force:
pg.152: "
Its once-white hull was blistered and streaked with burn marks; its shielding plates damaged by an inferno of destruction." This is in reference to Gorgon's return to the Maw, and mentions something called "shielding plates," although this may simply refer to armor.
Source:
The Far Orbit Project and
Starships of the Galaxy:
"Sirplex Zr-41 Front- and Rear-projecting Shield Generators" and "JC-671" generators on the B-wing and Nebulon-B frigates, respectively. This indicates that different companies produce shield generators, and therefore supports the possibility of different design paradigms when it comes to making them (not an extremely relevant point as much as it is a technicality). This may help explain why not all ships in Star Wars have big domes on their exteriors.
Source:
Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections:
??
All I have on this point is a quote,
"
Coolant pump circulates a superfluid with enormous heat capacity to moderate the shield matrix during critical power spikes that cannot be radiated away quickly." Which, although informative, does not give a clue as to shield emitter locations,
and the information given to me by Illuminatus Primus:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The AOTC ICS shows the infamous Core Ships have deeply recessed shield generators.
I still would like to see this diagram so I can examine it in detail.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Shield generators are located deep within ships, not near the surface.
Illuminatus Primus later acknowledged that this may not be the case.
Source:
X-Wing Computer Game / X-Wing Alliance(?) (1993 & 1999):
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Also, according to the X-Wing computer game, after the Star Destroyer Devestator was eliminated, all shield generators were refitted to more deeply recessed points anyway, so even if the domes were related to shield generation, they are not anymore.
Curtis Saxton wrote:Note: In the X-Wing Collector's CD computer game, the briefing text for "Bonus Mission 3" states:
"This mission recreates the last time an Imperial class Star Destroyer was destroyed by taking advantage of its 'Achilles' Heel.' After this the remaining vessels in the class were all subjected to a time-consuming and expensive shield system upgrade."
The most that this source seems to indicate is that the shields (which it says were initially placed in the domes) were later relocated to "more deeply recessed points."
Source:
The Star Wars Collectible Card Game:
The Star Wars CCG gives us
this picture, which identifies the domes as "Deflector Shield Generators."
*takes a breath* okay.
Given all of this information, some sources indicating sensor domes, one indicating communications domes, and yet others still saying deflector domes, here's my harmony suggestion:
Illuminatus Primus might have been onto something when he said:
While the domes are probably senor domes (analysis of the Executor model showed identical domes scattered over the cortex) it is possible the bridge domes stored back-up shield generators or the bridge's shield projectors
...so even if the domes were related to shield generation, they are not anymore.
The domes could possibly be multifunction devices, containing all sort of field projection equipment, IE, active EM/ particle scanners, communications arrays, and possibly a deflector field generator designed to
specifically protect the bridge tower against all the radiation such a device (probably) would throw off.
I found a similar sentiment here:
IG-88E wrote:I thought of this while I was at work today.
OK, think for a second that the globes atop an ISD are indeed shield generators and not sensor globes. I think I found a way to explain the scene with the Executor.
During the battle of Endor, all Rebel cruisers are ordered to concentrate fire on the Executor. After an intense barrage, the ship's shields go down, at least partially. Techs immediately begin working to repair them.
Meanwhile, the A-wings slip through the hole in the shield and blast the globesto prevent them from bringing the shields back up.
This would explain why the officer aboard the Executor's bridge looked at the screen immediately after the globes were destroyed and said "Sir! We've LOST our bridge deflector shield!" (emphasis mine). He would be referring to the fact that there would be no way tore-raisethe bridge shield, which is why Piett gave the command to increase forward firepower to protect them.
In other words, my theory is that its not that the two A-wings brought down the ship's shields, it's just that they prevented them from bringing the shields back up AFTER they already lost them.
In the RoTJ situation, Admiral Ackbar's infamous order to "concentrate your fire on their power generators" pummeled down the shields of the Executor. Then when the starfighter took out the high-energy particle generator dome (communications and sensor dome), it would have destroyed a shield emitter inside the dome (which was either a radiation shield generator, or perhaps the command tower/bridge shield emitter altogether, hence "Sir, we've lost our bridge deflector shield!")
Like Phongn wrote:
if they [bridge/tower/radiation shield emitters] were external [or in this case, in the domes], the shield generators would also protect themselves against fire.
So it's not a huge glaring weakness were you toss a rock at the domes and suddenly the ship has no shields whatsoever
. Only the bridge deflectors were located in the tower, and once the entire shielding grid was knocked down (by a concentrated pummeling from the Rebel fleet), it made those emitters vulnerable.
Just because there are (possibly) deflector emitters in the domes themselves, tasked with protecting the bridge crew, it does not mean that there are not additional emitters placed in the trenches, as Mandel's blueprints have indicated. This would just mean that neither of the two main sources here, being the
The Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels or Geoffrey Mandel's Imperator Star Destroyer Blueprints, are inaccurate as much as they are
imprecise on this point.
And then, if you take the general gist Illuminatus Primus'
X-Wing information, "more deeply recessed points" may indicate moving the bridge shield emitters from the domes themselves to somewhere else more protected by the superstructure of the ship. Hence,
...so even if the domes were related to shield generation, they are not anymore.
If "now" is post-Endor.
Admittedly, this harmony is somewhat tentative, but I think it serves to tie together the various pieces of information we have without necessarily declaring any one to be wholly inaccurate (and thus ignore it). As it can cater to the largest number of sources (that I'm aware of) that should be where it garners most of its credibility from.
