StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Traditionaly the Force has been broken down into two parts; the Light Side and the Dark Side. However, if the Force is a energy field it can't be that simple.



Like a magnetic field there has to be something in-between; a gray side or a shadow side that is neither good or evil, but both.

Thoughts?

(heeey ... fanfic idea!)

I don't think it is that complicated. The Force itself is a energy field, yes,but it is user of that field that matters.

Kazeite wrote:I don't think it is that complicated. The Force itself is a energy field, yes,but it is user of that field that matters.

Only partly.

If a Force-user lusts for power he'll use the Dark Side and end up as a Sith, yes. But someone who thinks the ends justify the means and who use the Dark Side in an attempt to do good will also be consumed by the Dark Side. So it's not just the user.

Personally, I think the Force is ALIVE. It's a living energy. Not living in the sense of you and me, but alive nevertheless. Light or Dark, the Force uses both to guide the galaxy into a direction that it wants. It brings itself to balance, creates its own heroes and villains.

There are constant references in the last Zahn books that the Force, while it is a powerful tool and weapon, is also a voice. The more powerful masters learned to listen to its guidance rather than rely on its strength.

Also, I think that Yoda was wrong in what he told Luke about the future. From all evidence, in the Star Wars galaxy the future seems set. The user of the Force can only see snippets of the future out of context and not know what it means yet comes exactly to play though not as it was first interperted.

Though, I also think that the Force allows certain people to see these incomplete visions of the future to place people in certain situations. Such as Luke at the demonstration that gets him in contact with Karrde, Mara floating "dead," and such.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Traditionaly the Force has been broken down into two parts; the Light Side and the Dark Side. However, if the Force is a energy field it can't be that simple.



Like a magnetic field there has to be something in-between; a gray side or a shadow side that is neither good or evil, but both.

Thoughts?

(heeey ... fanfic idea!)

Old idea. Stupid newbies were wanking off to this idea in old yahell SW RP long, long time ago. Because they thought they could make Uber Jedi that could use both sides.

I thought it was established in the books that there was no Light and Dark side of the Force, only the Force itself and the will of the users.

neoolong wrote:I thought it was established in the books that there was no Light and Dark side of the Force, only the Force itself and the will of the users.

That point was made by Vergere in the NJO series. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. It's her perspective, that she hands down to Jacen Solo. Meanwhile, the rest of the Jedi, Luke included, continue to go on with the typically concieved notion.

Wouldnt the fact that the Force spontaneously acted to concieve Anakin (as the one who would restore its balance) seem to imply a conciousness on some level ?

Assuming that Shmi was talking the truth... yes it would. Good point.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:That point was made by Vergere in the NJO series. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. It's her perspective, that she hands down to Jacen Solo. Meanwhile, the rest of the Jedi, Luke included, continue to go on with the typically concieved notion.

No they didn't, Luke showed a drastic change, and Vergere's theory has been tested and proven already in Traitor, as we clearly see Jacen use the ahem... "Dark side" many times.

Light and Dark are just buzzwords assigned by primitive beings to a concept they cannot understand nor comprehend, thats the point.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:That point was made by Vergere in the NJO series. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. It's her perspective, that she hands down to Jacen Solo. Meanwhile, the rest of the Jedi, Luke included, continue to go on with the typically concieved notion.

No they didn't, Luke showed a drastic change, and Vergere's theory has been tested and proven already in Traitor, as we clearly see Jacen use the ahem... "Dark side" many times.

Light and Dark are just buzzwords assigned by primitive beings to a concept they cannot understand nor comprehend, thats the point.

By all means, please display this drastic change in Luke. Because he continues to show the same tendencies. He's still consider with the Jedi falling to the Darkside come Force Heretic.

Just because Jacen has used the Darkside does not change the fact of what it is. He's using it while prescribing to Vergere's teachings. If it was such a revolutionary teaching, it would have changed all the Jedi radically. But it hasn't. The rest of the Jedi are still concerned about falling to the Darkside. Specifically, Saba Sebatyne in Force Heretic in reaction to what happened to her people.

Frankly, I think for you to even slightly consider Vergere's "theory" you have to now accept that Master Yoda, a Jedi with over 8 centuries experience in the force, didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

That alone, sinks birdwoman in my eyes. Not to mention, the Sith Order would have a few things to say about her philosophy. To me, she just has an opinion "from a certain point of view" -- that dont make it correct.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:By all means, please display this drastic change in Luke. Because he continues to show the same tendencies. He's still consider with the Jedi falling to the Darkside come Force Heretic

Oh like how Luke suddenly changes his perspective on the Jedi role in the war after listening to Vergere? And the constant use of a new term instead of the "dark side"?

Just because Jacen has used the Darkside does not change the fact of what it is.

Not that there actually is a dark side per se, only the dark side in himself.
But this is actually official and is clearly the direction the NJO is going towards in the end anyway, we all know this.

He's using it while prescribing to Vergere's teachings. If it was such a revolutionary teaching, it would have changed all the Jedi radically. But it hasn't.

Prove the assertion that they must have changed dramatically, Jacen was able to come up with some new force-powers thanks to his new insight also.

The rest of the Jedi are still concerned about falling to the Darkside. Specifically, Saba Sebatyne in Force Heretic in reaction to what happened to her people.

And? I don't see a point, thats just how they're used to thinking, so the dark side is not in the force, but in them, besides, they have not had the training provided by Vergere, which Jacen has so it's unlikely they can suddenly change their entire way of thinking just like that.

And now most of the time it's not reffered to as the dark side anymore, but more as "the dark" in oneself, Luke used this term many times in Destiny's Way and seemed to be

And ofcourse the entire series pretty much depicts what Vergere said as truth, and ofcourse it is, I frankly don't see why this debate is going on, the series end is even called "the unifying force", as if the series overall is not clear enough already, it's clearly going be about the force becoming bigger.

I don't really see a point to this, I mean you can insist it all you want that it is not so, but frankly thats like a snowflake trying to stand up to an avalanche, the avalanche being LucasFilm and the upcoming books.

Burak Gazan wrote:Frankly, I think for you to even slightly consider Vergere's "theory" you have to now accept that Master Yoda, a Jedi with over 8 centuries experience in the force, didn't know what the hell he was talking about

I think the movie indicates that yoda knew of this to some degree to, and that he had a more vergere like view of the force.
So no, you don't have to say yoda is wrong.

Here is a very real example on how inadequate the definition of strictly light & dark is:
========================
Pg. 145-146: One of those massive bipedal tentacle-faced predators lunged out of the shrub thicket with astonishing speed. It seized the nearest of the hoofed reptilians in powerful prehensile forepaws, its blade-tipped mouth-tentacles stabbing and sawing to swiftly slay and disjoint the captured animal, carving it into bite-sized hunks. As the rest of the herd bounded away, the predator settled down in the slanting sunlight to devour its kill.

"That is why this place is so dangerous," Vergere said with a hint of a challenging smile. "It is filled with what you would call the dark side. I should say: the dark side is very, very powerful here, more powerful than anywhere else on this planet. As powerful, perhaps, as it is anywhere in the galaxy."

Jacen lowered the electrobinoculars, blinking. "That's not the dark side," he said. "A predator hunts to feed itself and its family. That's just nature."

"And the dark side isn't? I thought the danger of the dark side was that it is natural: that's why it's easier than the light, yes?"

"Well, yes, but-"

"Is what you have seen not the exemplar of the dark side? Is this not what you fear so much: aggression, violence, passion?"

"You want to know what the real dark side would look like? If that predator had slaughtered the entire herd, just for the fun of it. For the joy of killing."

"Do you think this predator takes no joy in its successful kill?"

Jacen looked again through the electrobinoculars,watching for a moment as the predator seemed to shiver with delight in its meal. He didn't answer.

"Kill one, it's nature, kill them all, it's the dark side?" Vergere went on. "Is the line between nature and dark side only one of degree? Is it the dark side if that predator kills only half the herd? A quarter?"

He lowered the electrobinoculars once more. "It's the dark side if it kills more than it needs to feed itself and its family," he said, heating up. "That's the line. Killing when you don't need to kill."

Vergere cocked her head. "And how do you define need? Are we talking about the line of starvation, or simple malnutrition? Is it the dark side if they only eat half the slain animal? Does a predator partake of the dark side if its family is a few kilos overweight?"

"It's not about that-"

"Then what is it about? Are we back to why? Does intention always trump action? It's not the dark side for that predator, say, to slaughter the entire herd and leave them to rot, so long as it thinks it needs them for food?"

"It's not that simple," Jacen insisted. "And it's not always easy to describe-"

"But you know it when you see it, yes?"

He lowered his head stubbornly. "Yes."

Vergere uncoiled her fingers toward the blood-smeared predator on the slope below. "You didn't this time..."
========================
-Traitor

There's also other quotes about other force species, like in VoTF, the Aiing-Ti, they see the force as a rainbow, not black and white, that seems to be mostly how they are trained and the black and white distinction is utterly drilled into the mind of a jedi, because they fear the slightest chance of someone going to the "dark side".

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Burak Gazan wrote:Frankly, I think for you to even slightly consider Vergere's "theory" you have to now accept that Master Yoda, a Jedi with over 8 centuries experience in the force, didn't know what the hell he was talking about

I think the movie indicates that yoda knew of this to some degree to, and that he had a more vergere like view of the force.
So no, you don't have to say yoda is wrong.

Well, you can believe that.
I just dont.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I think the movie indicates that yoda knew of this to some degree to, and that he had a more vergere like view of the force.
So no, you don't have to say yoda is wrong.

Example? How do you suggest Yoda knows?

I'm not really interested in debating, but I'd like to see where you're getting at with Yoda.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:By all means, please display this drastic change in Luke. Because he continues to show the same tendencies. He's still consider with the Jedi falling to the Darkside come Force Heretic

Oh like how Luke suddenly changes his perspective on the Jedi role in the war after listening to Vergere? And the constant use of a new term instead of the "dark side"?

Suddnely? LOL. It's hardly sudden. The issue of the Jedi's role in the war had been in consideration for the ENTIRE series. And you're acting as though Luke came to terms with it in Traitor. The Jedi had long since been going on missions before that book. After Traitor, though, the situation is growing worse. He doesn't have much of a choice. The Jedi have to be involved. It has nothing to do with Vergere.

Not that there actually is a dark side per se, only the dark side in himself.
But this is actually official and is clearly the direction the NJO is going towards in the end anyway, we all know this.

As much as I like the EU, and have been enjoying the NJO series, I hope that it isn't going in that direction. And you have these "official" books altering the whole Darkside/Lightside thing that Lucas has created into "There is no Darkside and Lightside". This is where I think the EU is going to far. And believe me, I'm an EU supporter. But I think it's stepping on Lucas' toes a bit if during the commentary for AOTC he states "The Darkside is stronger than the Lightside" and then you have these books saying "There's no such thing as sides of the Force." It's his creation, after all.

Prove the assertion that they must have changed dramatically, Jacen was able to come up with some new force-powers thanks to his new insight also.

What "new" powers did he come up with? He's just using powers that he couldn't or wouldn't allow himself to before because of this notion that Vergere put in his head. And I'm sure if Luke had been in attendance for this, he would have been deeply concerend and lectured Jacen. You don't see Jacen throwing around Force Lightning infront of Uncle Luke, do you?

And? I don't see a point, thats just how they're used to thinking, so the dark side is not in the force, but in them, besides, they have not had the training provided by Vergere, which Jacen has so it's unlikely they can suddenly change their entire way of thinking just like that.

Uh...Reality check here, it's how all the Jedi had been thinking for MILLIENIA before Vergere was born. Once again, why would Yoda lecture Luke about the Darkside of the Force if there was NO SUCH THING. He wouldn't. He would have warned him about the darkness within himself. I hate to say this, but Yoda far out-ages Vergere and out ranks her in Force Power. I think I'll stick with what the little green guy is saying.

And now most of the time it's not reffered to as the dark side anymore, but more as "the dark" in oneself, Luke used this term many times in Destiny's Way and seemed to be

Luke and Vergere have discussions about this "Dark" and throughout it Luke continues to call it the Darkside. So does Vergere, on a occasion. For instance:

"I let the dark side take me," Luke said. "I cut off my father's hand."

"Ahhh." Vergere nodded. "Now I understand much."

"When my rage took control, I felt invincible. I felt complete. I felt free."

Vergere nodded again. "When you are in the grip of an irresistible compulsion, it is then that you feel most like yourself. But in reality it was you who were passive then. You let the feeling control you."

And you're argument that "most of hte time it's not referred to as teh Dark side" anymore. In the same book you have quoted, several characters have continued to call it the Darkside.

Jania looked at him for a long while. "No offense, Kyp, but I wish it was Uncle Luke who was making this argument, not the greatest living expert on the dark side of the Force." Kyp looked at her soberly. "So do I, Jania. So do I."

And I'm sad to say that Luke has not given up his feelins regarding the dark side of the Force.

pg 218 of Destiny's Way wrote: "Attack you how?" "Mentally." Her wiskers rippled. "If it helps, you may use a component of that anger you frist brought into this room. I'll trust that you're a gentelman and won't make it lethal."
Give in to your anger. The Emperor's seductive voice echoed in his mind. Was Vergere trying to provoke him to anger, bring him to the dark side?

And that's not all. Page 223, Luke refers to it as the Dark side.
Page 225, Vergere refers to it as the Dark Side (the same page she tells Luke her thoughts on the Force)
Page 298 Kyp refers to it as the Dark Side to Luke
Page 300 Luke refers to it as the Dark Side

Your point about Luke refering to it as "the dark" may only be that the writer does not wish to be redundant and constantly say "the dark side".

And ofcourse the entire series pretty much depicts what Vergere said as truth, and ofcourse it is, I frankly don't see why this debate is going on, the series end is even called "the unifying force", as if the series overall is not clear enough already, it's clearly going be about the force becoming bigger.

I seriously hope you are wrong. I hope "The Unifying Force" is not uniting everyone under the banner of there is no light or darkside. I think it's peace with the Vong, or finding the way to sense them in the Force.

I don't really see a point to this, I mean you can insist it all you want that it is not so, but frankly thats like a snowflake trying to stand up to an avalanche, the avalanche being LucasFilm and the upcoming books.

I suppose we shall see what lies ahead. But really, I think way too many people are putting far too much faith into what one character, who is already dead, has said about the Force. It is her perspective. And I think it's foolish to disregard what has been taught about the Force in the Star Wars universe as a whole, and what other Masters who surely rival Vergere have taught (Yoda).

Lord_Xerxes wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:That point was made by Vergere in the NJO series. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. It's her perspective, that she hands down to Jacen Solo. Meanwhile, the rest of the Jedi, Luke included, continue to go on with the typically concieved notion.

No they didn't, Luke showed a drastic change, and Vergere's theory has been tested and proven already in Traitor, as we clearly see Jacen use the ahem... "Dark side" many times.

Light and Dark are just buzzwords assigned by primitive beings to a concept they cannot understand nor comprehend, thats the point.

By all means, please display this drastic change in Luke. Because he continues to show the same tendencies. He's still consider with the Jedi falling to the Darkside come Force Heretic.

Just because Jacen has used the Darkside does not change the fact of what it is. He's using it while prescribing to Vergere's teachings. If it was such a revolutionary teaching, it would have changed all the Jedi radically. But it hasn't. The rest of the Jedi are still concerned about falling to the Darkside. Specifically, Saba Sebatyne in Force Heretic in reaction to what happened to her people.

HDS also assumes that it is not possible that Jacen IS on the Dark Path nonetheless.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:And believe me, I'm an EU supporter. But I think it's stepping on Lucas' toes a bit if during the commentary for AOTC he states "The Darkside is stronger than the Lightside" and then you have these books saying "There's no such thing as sides of the Force." It's his creation, after all.

I think GL is stepping on his own toes and being revisionist or just running his mouth to fill nice commentary-to-be-sold. In the OT he clearly set that the Dark Side was "quicker, easier, more seductive," but not more powerful.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:And believe me, I'm an EU supporter. But I think it's stepping on Lucas' toes a bit if during the commentary for AOTC he states "The Darkside is stronger than the Lightside" and then you have these books saying "There's no such thing as sides of the Force." It's his creation, after all.

I think GL is stepping on his own toes and being revisionist or just running his mouth to fill nice commentary-to-be-sold. In the OT he clearly set that the Dark Side was "quicker, easier, more seductive," but not more powerful.

This may be true, but I would say as the father of the whole thing, he would have more of a right than the authors of these NJO books. Now, I understand that they have certain guidelines to follow. But I doubt Lucas reads every damn one of the books comming out with the Star Wars name on them. He probably gets a rough outline.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:And believe me, I'm an EU supporter. But I think it's stepping on Lucas' toes a bit if during the commentary for AOTC he states "The Darkside is stronger than the Lightside" and then you have these books saying "There's no such thing as sides of the Force." It's his creation, after all.

I think GL is stepping on his own toes and being revisionist or just running his mouth to fill nice commentary-to-be-sold. In the OT he clearly set that the Dark Side was "quicker, easier, more seductive," but not more powerful.

This may be true, but I would say as the father of the whole thing, he would have more of a right than the authors of these NJO books. Now, I understand that they have certain guidelines to follow. But I doubt Lucas reads every damn one of the books comming out with the Star Wars name on them. He probably gets a rough outline.

I wasn't implying that at all. I was just cynically remarking that that might no be the best angle: GL is so inconsistent that I blissfully overlook most of what he says as long as it isn't in the movies.

I feel compelled to observe that it very much serves the interests of Evil to make compelling arguments concerning its own nonexistance.

Or to put it another way (And paraphrase Verbal Kent who was himself quoting Voltaire, I think..?)

The greatest trick the Dark Side ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

Suddnely? LOL. It's hardly sudden. The issue of the Jedi's role in the war had been in consideration for the ENTIRE series.

And the stance has been clear, after he spoke to Vergere he changed his point of view, even Durron asked something like "why this sudden change of view" and ofcourse then wanting to hit him.

As much as I like the EU, and have been enjoying the NJO series, I hope that it isn't going in that direction. And you have these "official" books altering the whole Darkside/Lightside thing that Lucas has created into "There is no Darkside and Lightside". This is where I think the EU is going to far.

And I think it's been hinted at since the movies.
Not that it matters becase this is such a big thing that they most definitly asked Lucas permission before going on with it, just like they did with killing Chewie.

And believe me, I'm an EU supporter. But I think it's stepping on Lucas' toes a bit if during the commentary for AOTC he states "The Darkside is stronger than the Lightside" and then you have these books saying "There's no such thing as sides of the Force." It's his creation, after all.

What "new" powers did he come up with? He's just using powers that he couldn't or wouldn't allow himself to before because of this notion that Vergere put in his head

Assumption by you, but infact the green force-lightning is an entierly new concept not seen before.

And I'm sure if Luke had been in attendance for this, he would have been deeply concerend and lectured Jacen. You don't see Jacen throwing around Force Lightning infront of Uncle Luke, do you?

You don't see them fighting together do you? Do you think he just throws tantrums now like a kid or what?

Uh...Reality check here, it's how all the Jedi had been thinking for MILLIENIA before Vergere was born. Once again, why would Yoda lecture Luke about the Darkside of the Force if there was NO SUCH THING.

Because the mindset works, the new mindset is less strict and we all saw what Jacen had to go through to learn it.

He wouldn't. He would have warned him about the darkness within himself.

Assumption, and I say it's wrong.

Luke and Vergere have discussions about this "Dark" and throughout it Luke continues to call it the Darkside. So does Vergere, on a occasion. For instance:

Quote:
"I let the dark side take me," Luke said. "I cut off my father's hand."

"Ahhh." Vergere nodded. "Now I understand much."

"When my rage took control, I felt invincible. I felt complete. I felt free."

Vergere nodded again. "When you are in the grip of an irresistible compulsion, it is then that you feel most like yourself. But in reality it was you who were passive then. You let the feeling control you."

And you're argument that "most of hte time it's not referred to as teh Dark side" anymore. In the same book you have quoted, several characters have continued to call it the Darkside

And they call it the Dark too, the problem is you making it out to mean something, Vergere didn't even bother to correct Luke on the use of the word "dark side" and why should she? It means both things just as well, you have to prove your assumption that a character is specifically reffering to the force and not the new philosophy.

*snip*

Your point about Luke refering to it as "the dark" may only be that the writer does not wish to be redundant and constantly say "the dark side"

No, your point about it must mean the dark side of the force is the problem, this you have not proven, it proves nothing since the new philosophy does not alter the current Jedi modus operandi any.

I seriously hope you are wrong.

I pretty much know I am right, and I for one am excited by this, even in the movies that whole concept seemed so inadequate and limited.

I suppose we shall see what lies ahead. But really, I think way too many people are putting far too much faith into what one character, who is already dead, has said about the Force.

I think you're just taking that path in particular because you don't like it, it's pretty clear in the series where the sense of right and wrong is, this definitly right.

It is her perspective. And I think it's foolish to disregard what has been taught about the Force in the Star Wars universe as a whole, and what other Masters who surely rival Vergere have taught (Yoda)

You keep on saying Yoda is wrong, I don't see this, heck so what if Yoda was wrong? He has not been through the same that Vergere did, he's not automatically right.
And so what if Yoda knows it? He could not put Luke through what Jacen went through.


Frankly this whole debate is silly, it's just over interprepting words and trying to shoehorn whatever ideas one wants to into them, and it's mostly a shitload of assumptions too, like how it has to imply a drastical change, it has to happen to all the jedi, it has to happen at once, every mention of the word Dark Side somehow means Vergere is wrong etc etc etc.

No thank you, I'll just sit out this debate with the knowledge of what is to come anyway-

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Example? How do you suggest Yoda knows?

I'm not really interested in debating, but I'd like to see where you're getting at with Yoda.

I don't know the examples, but I remember from the early discussions when people brought up stuff Yoda said as hints that he might know, what they where I dunno anymore tho.
It'd probably take a thourough search through the archives for that.