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Given that this topic seems to crop up once in a while in every discussion related to TLJ, I suppose it will be good to have a dedicated thread for this.

In my opinion, while I can agree with people who felt that Holdo is being unfairly criticised by misogynists who tried to use the character's gender and dress as something to be belittled, I find some of Holdo's defenders to be overcompensating for her actions in the movie. While Holdo was a character that managed to earn the respect of the other characters in the end, I think we should be careful in not conflating being able to command respect as being equivalent to good leadership.

While Poe is most certainly an idiot and bears a huge responsibility for the loss of lives, Holdo must share a degree of blame as Poe's commander. The failure to bring Poe fully to her side undermined her leadership from the get-go, and allowing Poe to portray himself as a victim and gain more sympathy from several key junior officers in the resistance.

Whatever Rian Johnsons' intention was, I argue that what he did in the end with Holdo was to create a well-meaning and brave commander, but not necessarily a good leader. Despite leadership being one of the central themes of the movie, I do not think Rian Johnson quite grasp what is good leadership in the eyes of many people. He seems to have conflated respect with leadership, when they are quite distinct.

At the very least, I think she was poorly suited for the role she was forced to fill in the movie. Maybe she's much better under other circumstances (I don't follow the EU, so I don't know how she's portrayed elsewhere), and this is a case of the old saying "You get promoted to your level of incompetence," but that's the impression I got. Maybe she's a great ship commander, but not good at running a fleet. Maybe she's like Ambrose Burnside, where she's good at planning and coming up with clever strategies, but has trouble adjusting those plans when things go wrong. Regardless, whether she's good under certain circumstances or just a generally bad leader, she strikes me as not being the type of commander that was needed at that time.

For me, the biggest mark against her is that she seems to be poor at managing low morale. Now, the morale problem apparently wasn't universal, since a lot of information was intentionally withheld from the audience for the sake of having a plot twist, but it still showed poor morale management because what we did see was dire. Evidence of major desertion problems, in that Rose stopped multiple desertion attempts at just one of the escape pods. Unless every deserter just happened to try to use that pod, it's evidence of a much larger and more widespread desertion problem. Lots of people were also apparently just left to their own devices, including members of the command staff. Poe himself is kept in the dark and given nothing to do, which both makes it easier for him to go behind Holdo's back with his own plan, and also makes him feel like he has to go behind her back because he thinks the plan is to just sit around and wait for the inevitable. The same is likely true for the crew members who join him in the mutiny, which even includes some of the bridge crew. Rose also paints a pretty bleak picture, since the part where she was stopping desertions appears to have been entirely done on her own initiative, as opposed to being stationed there, if for no other reason than because when she and Finn sneak off to Canto Bight, no one ever seems to notice that she's gone.

It is tempting to say no good leader could have a mutiny against her. That was my default reaction and I do still think that 'inspired a mutiny' is a pretty bad mark against her.

But Holdo hardly came to command in ideal circumstances. An apparently under equipped (and massively underfuelled for some reason) that's just suffered a couple of defeats and is being chased by a massively superior fore both numerically and technologically and replace an immensely famous and popular leader like Leia and has to take command of a force of people, she doesn't know and don't know her.

She doesn't really rise to the occasion and mostly seems to fall back on "I'm the Admiral, I'm in charge, you have to do what I say." Now this should be enough but it's not great leadership. (ie people are following the rank badge, not the person). It feels a doubly bad attitude because the Resistance presumably isn't a real military with real discipline; It's a volunteer band of idealists. She doesn't reassure or inspire people beyond some very general platitudes and speeches about hope. When I feel like what she should have been saying is 'Yes, we're in bad situation, yes I have a plan to get us out of this situation. What you can do to give us the best chance is xyz' Even if XYZ is make work.

If she was commanding a force of people she knew and had commanded for a long time or not in such a dire emergency. She might have shown off her abilities a lot better. At the moment she comes off to me as a competent enough officer and planner but not much of a leader, if that makes any sense.

No, she is not.

As others have noted, she was disastrous with morale, with delegation, and with crisis management.

Holdo's errors:

Lack of Morale Building: She had 18 hours, and multiple meetings to correct Poe's assumption that they were actually doing something, and give him and the crew something to do. Repeatedly.

Lack of delegation: Poe is her XO unless he was properly relieved. This means that he could have advised her, took some of the tasks she needed done, or worked on morale since that seemed to be beneath her. Keeping him in the dark and losing two ships and her big plan is to abandon ship without telling him makes her look either like an incompetent or a coward.

Poor tactics: She lost two out of her three ships when they could have gone somewhere else, and her plan hinged on her plan not running into anything going wrong, which it did due to Poe's incompetence, but could have also gone wrong due to the First Order having functioning brain cells, as a pincer tactic would have stopped it.

Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.

Poor crisis management: It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. It's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

In crisis management, if someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan. His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.

Lack of maintaining discipline/loyalty among the crew: Enough to where Rose, a non-security officer, was stationed or volunteered at the escape pods to stop deserters. This means that security for the ship was busy with other things, making desertions seem like a pressing problem.

All in all, no matter Holdo's qualifications, which seem to be espionage, she was utterly out of her element as leader of a fleet.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-03-22 07:02am Given that this topic seems to crop up once in a while in every discussion related to TLJ, I suppose it will be good to have a dedicated thread for this.

In my opinion, while I can agree with people who felt that Holdo is being unfairly criticised by misogynists who tried to use the character's gender and dress as something to be belittled, I find some of Holdo's defenders to be overcompensating for her actions in the movie. While Holdo was a character that managed to earn the respect of the other characters in the end, I think we should be careful in not conflating being able to command respect as being equivalent to good leadership.

While Poe is most certainly an idiot and bears a huge responsibility for the loss of lives, Holdo must share a degree of blame as Poe's commander. The failure to bring Poe fully to her side undermined her leadership from the get-go, and allowing Poe to portray himself as a victim and gain more sympathy from several key junior officers in the resistance.

I would point out that Holdo has to earn the respect, and address the concerns, of the entire fleet during a crisis, not just Poe. We just see things mostly from Poe's perspective. And that their very first interaction is Poe coming up to her, questioning her (and misstating his rank in the process), and basically getting things off on the wrong foot. So I'd definitely put most of the blame on Poe, at least.

Whatever Rian Johnsons' intention was, I argue that what he did in the end with Holdo was to create a well-meaning and brave commander, but not necessarily a good leader. Despite leadership being one of the central themes of the movie, I do not think Rian Johnson quite grasp what is good leadership in the eyes of many people. He seems to have conflated respect with leadership, when they are quite distinct.

I think that the problem stems from two main things:

First, there's audience bias. Part of that is the misogyny, but on top of that there's the OT favoritism, hostility towards the ST/TLJ, the fact that Poe is a more established, pre-existing character and thus more inclined to be favored by the audience, and the fact that the audience is used to genre conventions in which the "authority" figure is corrupt or incompetent and its the lone hotshot hero who has to save the day by taking the law into their own hands. Johnson uses all of this to misdirect the audience, but because the audience is, in large part, predisposed to side with Poe, the misdirection is more believable to many than the subsequent reveal.

The second, related problem is that we don't see that much of Holdo, and most of what we do see is shown more from Poe's perspective, and showing Holdo in the worst possible light.

This makes it very difficult to evaluate her as a leader or anything else. We kind of have to piece together a character from glimpses and extrapolation.

Civil War Man wrote: ↑2019-03-22 11:04am At the very least, I think she was poorly suited for the role she was forced to fill in the movie. Maybe she's much better under other circumstances (I don't follow the EU, so I don't know how she's portrayed elsewhere), and this is a case of the old saying "You get promoted to your level of incompetence," but that's the impression I got.

As I noted in the Battle of Crait thread, this is basically all Wookiepedia gives on her history:

A human female, Amilyn Holdo was born on the planet Gatalenta during the early Imperial Era. In the year 3 BBY, Holdo joined the Apprentice Legislature, an Imperial organization on Coruscant for youth in politics. While in the Apprentice Legislature, Holdo met Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan, daughter of Senator Bail Organa. Holdo and Princess Organa spent much time together during senatorial sessions and routine pathfinding training on various worlds such as Alderaan, Eriadu, and Felucia. While pathfinding on the planet Pamarthe, Holdo discovered Organa's involvement with the rebellion against the Galactic Empire. Soon after, Holdo helped Organa find passage to the Paucris system in order to warn the fleet of an impending Imperial attack.[1]
Organa's Resistance
In 2 BBY, the rebellion became the Alliance to Restore the Republic,[6] and in the subsequent Galactic Civil War, the Empire was toppled and replaced with a New Republic.[7] However, an Imperial remnant reorganized into the First Order,[8] so in 28 ABY,[9] Organa created the Resistance to oppose them.[8] By 34 ABY,[2] during the conflict between the two groups, Holdo joined the Resistance military and served as a Vice Admiral and commanding officer of the cruiser Ninka.[3]
After the attack on Starkiller Base, she was posted on the Resistance ship Ninka. On D'Qar just before the First Order's arrival, she briefed the Resistance pilots from Cobalt and Crimson Squadron about the events of the annihilation of the Hosnian system as well as the subsequent destruction of Starkiller Base. She offered ammunition from her ship to help arm their squadrons. Having heard of Rose Tico's previous accomplishments with Cobalt Squadron, Holdo asked her to take a position on the Ninka as part of the maintenance team.[10]

"She's somebody who's a bit off-kilter, who sees the world through a prism most others don't understand. At first Leia thinks she's pleasant but weird, but as time goes on, it becomes apparent that there's much more to Holdo than you might guess when you first met her. We don't really have a lot of true oddballs in Star Wars, so it was fun to introduce one!"
―Claudia Gray, on Amilyn Holdo[src]
Amilyn Holdo is a character developed for the 2017 film Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi, in which she is portrayed by actress Laura Dern. The casting announcement was revealed on February 15, 2016,[13] and Holdo's name was revealed on May 24, 2017 in a Vanity Fair article.[14] During the Journey to Star Wars: The Last Jedi marketing campaign, Holdo appeared as a supporting character in the young-adult novel Leia, Princess of Alderaan by Claudia Gray,[1] and was briefly shown in the picture book A Leader Named Leia.[4] Holdo's appearance in Leia, Princess of Alderaan was received positively, with some readers comparing her to the character Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter.[15]

Maybe she's a great ship commander, but not good at running a fleet. Maybe she's like Ambrose Burnside, where she's good at planning and coming up with clever strategies, but has trouble adjusting those plans when things go wrong.

Both those possibilities occurred to me, although from her (limited) bio, the impression I get is of someone who's background was more in espionage and politics than space combat, and got her position because she was someone Leia knew and trusted and there was a shortage of such people around her were qualified for command. But that is admittedly somewhat speculative.

Regardless, whether she's good under certain circumstances or just a generally bad leader, she strikes me as not being the type of commander that was needed at that time.

In fairness, she inherited an absolutely shit situation. If Hux hadn't been such an incompetent, it wouldn't have mattered who was in command- the fleet would have died to a man. On the flip side, if Poe hadn't gone off half-cocked (with Finn and Rose as co-conspirators), her plan would likely have saved the lives of most of her personnel, from all available evidence. I'd say that's not a bad job, under the circumstances.

For me, the biggest mark against her is that she seems to be poor at managing low morale. Now, the morale problem apparently wasn't universal, since a lot of information was intentionally withheld from the audience for the sake of having a plot twist, but it still showed poor morale management because what we did see was dire. Evidence of major desertion problems, in that Rose stopped multiple desertion attempts at just one of the escape pods. Unless every deserter just happened to try to use that pod, it's evidence of a much larger and more widespread desertion problem. Lots of people were also apparently just left to their own devices, including members of the command staff. Poe himself is kept in the dark and given nothing to do, which both makes it easier for him to go behind Holdo's back with his own plan, and also makes him feel like he has to go behind her back because he thinks the plan is to just sit around and wait for the inevitable. The same is likely true for the crew members who join him in the mutiny, which even includes some of the bridge crew. Rose also paints a pretty bleak picture, since the part where she was stopping desertions appears to have been entirely done on her own initiative, as opposed to being stationed there, if for no other reason than because when she and Finn sneak off to Canto Bight, no one ever seems to notice that she's gone.

Again, though, you'd expect morale problems in that situation no matter who was in command.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-22 02:49pm It is tempting to say no good leader could have a mutiny against her. That was my default reaction and I do still think that 'inspired a mutiny' is a pretty bad mark against her.

But Holdo hardly came to command in ideal circumstances. An apparently under equipped (and massively underfuelled for some reason) that's just suffered a couple of defeats and is being chased by a massively superior fore both numerically and technologically and replace an immensely famous and popular leader like Leia and has to take command of a force of people, she doesn't know and don't know her.

She doesn't really rise to the occasion and mostly seems to fall back on "I'm the Admiral, I'm in charge, you have to do what I say." Now this should be enough but it's not great leadership. (ie people are following the rank badge, not the person). It feels a doubly bad attitude because the Resistance presumably isn't a real military with real discipline; It's a volunteer band of idealists. She doesn't reassure or inspire people beyond some very general platitudes and speeches about hope. When I feel like what she should have been saying is 'Yes, we're in bad situation, yes I have a plan to get us out of this situation. What you can do to give us the best chance is xyz' Even if XYZ is make work.

Pretty much, with the caveat that we don't really see her interactions with anyone but Poe and Leia, and nothing Poe does would give her the slightest reason to think well of him or take him seriously.

That and I'd actually say that her biggest mistake was not brigging him for insubordination when he went off ranting at her on the bridge, calling her a coward and traitor, etc.

If she was commanding a force of people she knew and had commanded for a long time or not in such a dire emergency. She might have shown off her abilities a lot better. At the moment she comes off to me as a competent enough officer and planner but not much of a leader, if that makes any sense.

Likely, yes.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-03-22 02:59pm No, she is not.

As others have noted, she was disastrous with morale, with delegation, and with crisis management.

Holdo's errors:

Lack of Morale Building: She had 18 hours, and multiple meetings to correct Poe's assumption that they were actually doing something, and give him and the crew something to do. Repeatedly.

She was under no obligation to tell Poe anything. A recently disgraced subordinate who doesn't need to know the plan is not entitled to know the plan.

"Give him something to do"... with hindsight that might have helped... or he might have just ignored her orders and done his own thing, given that he started going behind her back and undermining her leadership almost immediately after their first meeting.

This is the sort of bias that irritates me, and frankly makes me start thinking "male entitlement" (or maybe "fan favored character entitlement"). Poe is immediately confrontational to Holdo, gives her no reason to trust him or respect his opinion, and almost immediately starts going behind her back. But its all on her for not doing more to reach out to him, despite being in the middle of dealing with a crisis where there are probably hundreds of people and problems competing for her attention, and Poe being a recently disgraced subordinate who has no need to actually no what's going on beyond his own sense of paranoia and entitlement.

Lack of delegation: Poe is her XO unless he was properly relieved. This means that he could have advised her, took some of the tasks she needed done, or worked on morale since that seemed to be beneath her. Keeping him in the dark and losing two ships and her big plan is to abandon ship without telling him makes her look either like an incompetent or a coward.

Prove that Poe is her XO. There is zero mention of this and zero canon evidence of this to my recollection on-screen. Especially given that he was just demoted, plus are we supposed to believe that Poe would be higher in the chain of command than the captains of the escorts, and that there are no other officers on board the Raadus who would be promoted to XO of the ship ahead of a fucking fighter squadron commander?

Poor tactics: She lost two out of her three ships when they could have gone somewhere else, and her plan hinged on her plan not running into anything going wrong, which it did due to Poe's incompetence, but could have also gone wrong due to the First Order having functioning brain cells, as a pincer tactic would have stopped it.

Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.

-Demonstrate that Star Wars capital ships blowing up usually leave identifiable bodies.

-Demonstrate that the First Order's sensors are "better equipped" or could be expected to detect the Resistance's ships through their stealth tech. Especially given that they, you know, didn't on-screen until DJ spilled the beans.

-Remind me whether the Resistance knew that it was just the Raadus being tracked. If they believed all three ships were being tracked, then having the escorts split off might have accomplished nothing, except to strip the Raadus of its last cover against possible fighter attacks. In any case, isn't it generally considered poor tactics to split your forces against a numerically superior opponent?

Also, Point of Order: Evacuating to Crait was Leia's plan, not Holdo's. The transport part was presumably devised by Holdo, though, or by her subordinates and then approved by her (as until the FO tracked them, there would be no reason to abandon the ships).

Poor crisis management: It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. It's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

In crisis management, if someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.

This is absurd.

Your position is becoming more and more ridiculously hard-line with each post on this subject, to where you are now actually asserting that Poe had a right to mutiny because he didn't like Holdo's plan, and pretending that this is standard military procedure.

Its laughable.

His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.

Lack of maintaining discipline/loyalty among the crew: Enough to where Rose, a non-security officer, was stationed or volunteered at the escape pods to stop deserters. This means that security for the ship was busy with other things, making desertions seem like a pressing problem.

Desertions would have likely been a problem under any officer in that scenario. Its telling that Rose had stopped multiple deserters almost immediately after Holdo took command- likely too soon for said desertions to be simply a response to her leadership.

All in all, no matter Holdo's qualifications, which seem to be espionage, she was utterly out of her element as leader of a fleet.

A lot of your claims in support of this are biased, tenuous, or speculative at best, when you're not outright fabricating evidence (ie claiming Poe was Holdo's XO).

That's another reason why its hard to judge Holdo, as well: that the only circumstance in which we see her leadership is one where the odds are ridiculously stacked against her.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Hux had been even close to competent, then it wouldn't have mattered whether the Resistance was commanded by the Second Coming of Jar Jar Binks, or a composite of Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis, James Kirk, Captain Picard, Admiral Adama, Honor Harrington, Bel Riose, and Ender Wiggin- it would have been blown out of the sky.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 12:03am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-03-22 02:59pm No, she is not.

As others have noted, she was disastrous with morale, with delegation, and with crisis management.

Holdo's errors:

Lack of Morale Building: She had 18 hours, and multiple meetings to correct Poe's assumption that they were actually doing something, and give him and the crew something to do. Repeatedly.

She was under no obligation to tell Poe anything. A recently disgraced subordinate who doesn't need to know the plan is not entitled to know the plan.

"Give him something to do"... with hindsight that might have helped... or he might have just ignored her orders and done his own thing, given that he started going behind her back and undermining her leadership almost immediately after their first meeting.

This is the sort of bias that irritates me, and frankly makes me start thinking "male entitlement" (or maybe "fan favored character entitlement"). Poe is immediately confrontational to Holdo, gives her no reason to trust him or respect his opinion, and almost immediately starts going behind her back. But its all on her for not doing more to reach out to him, despite being in the middle of dealing with a crisis where there are probably hundreds of people and problems competing for her attention, and Poe being a recently disgraced subordinate who has no need to actually know what's going on beyond his own sense of paranoia and entitlement.

Watch the scene again:



Unless she relieves him of duty, which she didn't(maybe that's another strike against her?), he is still serving and she's telling him to not do anything. Waste of resources and limiting her options by not utilizing a war hero. She had her chance(the briefing speech to 'have hope' to the fleet). It's not Poe's fault that her briefing is, "I have nothing, just have hope, okay?"

Poe isn't immediately confrontational. He IS inquisitive. Holdo's in charge, and as leader, she should roll with a subordinate asking for answers, even if it's a "One moment, I'm busy with ten different things right now, I'll get to you in a minute." Instead, she is insulting and confrontational. His words are asking for a direction to go, asking for leadership. She's the one starting a fight. That shows a fault in her as a leader.

That is a wasted opportunity, as first impressions are important, and she just squandered hers, as she seems like the type of leader who will throw away a perfectly good subordinate to settle some sort of grudge that the subordinate wasn't even aware of. Especially as there are pilots he's still in charge of that he could be delegating to and accomplishing needed tasks with.

Lack of delegation: Poe is her XO unless he was properly relieved. This means that he could have advised her, took some of the tasks she needed done, or worked on morale since that seemed to be beneath her. Keeping him in the dark and losing two ships and her big plan is to abandon ship without telling him makes her look either like an incompetent or a coward.

Prove that Poe is her XO. There is zero mention of this and zero canon evidence of this to my recollection on-screen. Especially given that he was just demoted, plus are we supposed to believe that Poe would be higher in the chain of command than the captains of the escorts, and that there are no other officers on board the Raadus who would be promoted to XO of the ship ahead of a fucking fighter squadron commander?

I have no diagram of how the Resistance leadership goes, but he is clearly of an advanced enough rank to be in charge of a squadron(as he is by the end of the movie), with pilots that are under his command. He is her subordinate, and as an officer, should be able to challenge her leadership if he feels that she is making poor choices, on behalf of everyone involved, or going higher up in the chain of command. IF there is someone between him and Holdo, she should have told him to report to that person and follow the chain, she doesn't. So either Poe is skipping the chain of command, or he's next to her in the chain, and can and should talk to her if he has reservations.

Poor tactics: She lost two out of her three ships when they could have gone somewhere else, and her plan hinged on her plan not running into anything going wrong, which it did due to Poe's incompetence, but could have also gone wrong due to the First Order having functioning brain cells, as a pincer tactic would have stopped it.

Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.

-Demonstrate that Star Wars capital ships blowing up usually leave identifiable bodies.

You do realize that you're talking about the same movie in which Leia is blown out of the ship and flies right back in, after the bridge is blown up?

Here's the two scenes in question:



So yeah, that kind of thing DOES happen. Only usually without someone with force powers flying back in.

-Demonstrate that the First Order's sensors are "better equipped" or could be expected to detect the Resistance's ships through their stealth tech. Especially given that they, you know, didn't on-screen until DJ spilled the beans.

They tracked them through Hyperspace, their sensor capability is already proven to be superior.

-Remind me whether the Resistance knew that it was just the Raadus being tracked. If they believed all three ships were being tracked, then having the escorts split off might have accomplished nothing, except to strip the Raadus of its last cover against possible fighter attacks. In any case, isn't it generally considered poor tactics to split your forces against a numerically superior opponent?

They did, because the flotilla was immediately tracked after jumping to lightspeed. They KNEW they were being tracked. Splitting the fleet up would have shown which ship was being tracked, and maybe split the number of pursuers, potentially evening the odds.

Also, Point of Order: Evacuating to Crait was Leia's plan, not Holdo's. The transport part was presumably devised by Holdo, though, or by her subordinates and then approved by her (as until the FO tracked them, there would be no reason to abandon the ships).

A plan that relied on First Order stupidity, and everything going right. It didn't, because of lack of Commsec(Poe talking on an open channel like an idiot).

Poor crisis management: It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. It's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

In crisis management, if someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.

This is absurd.

Your position is becoming more and more ridiculously hard-line with each post on this subject, to where you are now actually asserting that Poe had a right to mutiny because he didn't like Holdo's plan, and pretending that this is standard military procedure.

Its laughable.

Sigh, okay. Let me quote something for you:

Here are the Navy regs: Navy Regs

Here is the section on relieving your CO:

1088. Relief of a Commanding Officer by a Subordinate.
1. It is conceivable that most unusual and extraordinary circumstances may arise in which the relief from duty of a commanding officer by a subordinate becomes necessary, either by placing the commanding officer under arrest or on the sick list. Such action shall never be taken without the approval of the Commandant of the Marine Corps or the Chief of Naval Personnel, as appropriate, or the senior officer present, except when reference to such higher authority is undoubtedly impracticable because of the delay involved or for other clearly obvious reasons. In any event, a complete report of the matter shall be made w the Commandant of the Marine Corps or the Chief of Naval Personnel, as appropriate, and the senior officer present, setting forth all facts in the case and the reasons for the action or recommendation, with particular regard to the degree of urgency involved.
2. In order that a subordinate officer, acting upon his, or her own initiative, may be vindicated for relieving a commanding officer from duty, the situation must be obvious and clear, and must admit of the single conclusion that the retention of command by such commanding officer will seriously and irretrievably prejudice the public interests. The subordinate officer so acting:
a. Must be next in succession to command.
b. Must be unable to refer the matter to a common superior for the reasons set forth in the preceding paragraph.
c. Must be certain that the prejudicial actions of the commanding officer are not caused by instructions unknown to him or her.
d. Must have given the matter much consideration, and have made such exhaustive investigation of all the circumstances as maybe practicable.
e. Must be thoroughly convinced that the conclusion to relieve the commanding officer is one which a reasonable, prudent and experienced officer would regard as a necessary consequence from the facts thus determined to exist.

Here's the precedent for someone like Poe to relieve Holdo. Leia is in a coma. And he believes that relieving Holdo is a reasonable, prudent decision as an experienced decision.

This is the Army Field Manual on Leadership. Read it. See what applies to those of the Resistance, and those who don't. A few key quotes:

Principle X-Employ Your Command in Accordance
With Its Capabilities
a. You must have a thorough knowledge of capabilities and limitations of your command if you are to employ it properly. Individuals in your command must be assigned duties commensurate with their capabilities. You must use sound judgment in the employment of your unit. Failure to accomplish the mission causes a loss of confidence, which in turn destroys efficiency and brings about the collapse of morale and esprit de corps.
b. Techniques for application.
(1) Know, understand, and apply the principles of war.
(2) Keep yourself informed as to the relative operational effctiveness of various elements of your command.
(3) Be sure that the accomplishment of tasks assigned to subordinates is reasonably possible, but do not hesitate to demand their utmost effort in order to achieve a quick victory or to avoid defeat.
(4) Analyze any task assigned. If means at your disposal appear' inadequate, inform your immediate commander and request additional means.
(5) Make every effort to equalize tasks proportionately, over appropriate periods of time, among the several elements of your command.
(6) Utilize the full capabilities of your unit before requesting assistance.

a. You must seize the initiative in the absence of orders. By seeking responsibility, you develop yourself professionally and increase your ability. Accept responsibility for all your unit does or fails to do.
b. Techniques for application.
(1) Learn the duties and responsibilities of your immediate supervisor.
(2) Seek diversified assignments that will give you responsibility and command experience.
(3) Take advantage of any opportunity that offers increased responsibility.
(4) Perform every task, large or small, to the best of your ability. Your reward will consist of increased opportunity to demonstrate your fitness to perform bigger and more important tasks.
(5) Remember that you are responsible for all your command does or fails to do.
(6) Accept justified criticism and admit mistakes.
(7) Adhere to what you think is right; have the courage of your convictions.
(8) Insure that a subordinate leader's failure was not due to some error on your part before considering his relief. Get to the basic cause of his failure-manpower is valuable-and his replacement may be worse.
(9) Seize the initiative when a decision must be made and specific orders from higher headquarters are not forthcoming. Do what you think your superior would order if he were present.

Note the bolded. Holdo did not straighten out or relieve Poe, or utilize him to the best of her abilities. In fact, there's an entire section about what happens if your subordinates are losing combat effectiveness due to their emotions taking control:

65. Factors Adversely Affecting Combat Effectiveness
a. Factors adversely affecting the combat potential of the command include fear, panic, discouragement, isolation, and lack of confidence by the individual in himself, in his unit, or in his leaders. The presence of fear and a tendency to panic fluctuate with changes in condition of the troops, in degree of tactical success, and physical conditions on the battlefield. Normally, it is the commander of the small unit who must sense the development of situations interpreted by the troops as critical and who must take personal action to eliminate conditions conducive to fear and panic. However, it is largely the commander of the large unit who trains and indoctrinates the small unit commander and who initiates policies

Note that Holdo gave a speech to have hope. That was her total ineffective policy when it came to morale. Let's look at this some more, shall we?

Here's the bit about rumors:

67. Rumors
a. Rumors are essentially anonymous communications that yield readily to distribution. Those which seem plausible under existing conditions ciruculate rapidly. Rumors destroy confidence and create uncertainty. In combat, when soldiers may be uncertain and insecure, rumors may create an illusion and a critical situation where, in reality, none exists. Thus rumors create a condition of
high susceptiblity to emotional and irrational behavior. The hearers become excited and react in an unreasonable fashion to even weak suggestions.
Additional rumors can incite a mob action or panic.
Rumors are most effective when the individual sees them as plausible or suitable to his circumstances. However, once the characteristics of mass psychology destroy the ability to reason, rumors no longer require credence to be acceptable. This was one
of the bases of the propaganda campaigns of our adversaries in World War II. The most fantastic rumors were accepted without analysis because people were fearful and lacked factual information in a critical situation.
b. A rumor that supports a suspicion or a hatred, verifies a fear, or expresses a hope will be repeated and reinforced by the emotions of the teller. When rumors spread rapidly and far, it means that hates, fears, or hopes are common to the many people who are doing the repeating. Rumors are repeated even by those who do not believe them because they provide a chance to express an emotion which would otherwise have to be suppressed.
c. Confidence varies continually between overconfidence and shaken confidence. Rumor causes
violent fluctuations between these extremes. For this reason, rumors must be controlled. Effective rumor control requires an attentive ear to detect and identify rumors and specific action to discredit and eliminate them at the source. Rumors originated by the enemy necessitate counterintelligence measures to determine their source. Specific control measures applicable to all rumors include-
(1) Information programs.
(2) Disseminating information on plans and operations as complete as security requirements permit. Give the troops as
many facts as possible.
(3) Finding out and attempting to eliminate the basic conditions creating uncertainty and frustrations before they accumulate.
(4) Keeping informed regarding current rumors in the unit. A long range program of instilling faith in the information passed out by the chain of command is better than a point-for-point rebuttal of rumors passed along the "grapevine." Soldiers want information! If factual information is not expeditiously supplied by the chain of command, then the "rumor campaigns" take over. The obvious disadvantage of replying directly to rumors is that the rumors may be reinforced and given credability.
(5) By example and instruction, emphasizing democratic principles to eliminate hatred,prejudice, and animosity.
(6) Developing confidence in individuals toward their leaders.
d. Keeping your men informed assumes a major role on the battlefield. A soldier who is uninformed or misinformed cannot be expected to produce at his maximum ability in combat. Men must know what is expected of them and what means they
have at their disposal to assist them in accomplishing the mission. Troops who are aware beforehand of the enemy's capabilities exert a positive influence toward successful accomplishment of the mission.

Did Holdo keep her crews informed? No, because Poe wasn't informed. It's very probable that he panicked, which leads me to:

Panic
a. Panic develops when a soldier is overcome with fear. It may be evidenced by sudden flight or by freezing in place. Panic may develop in a group faced with sudden catastrophe or from a few individuals fleeing from destruction in a critical situation. The critical situations responsible for the mass emotion of fear may be real, as in the case of bombing raids, or imaginary, such as those created by terror, enemy propaganda, and malicious gossip.
The seeds of panic are always present in troops as long as they believe that physical danger is near.
b. The emotion of fear reaches panic proportions only when individuals believe themselves incapable of overcoming a critical situation. When emotional tension is produced by a critical situation, individuals become excitable and highly susceptible to
suggestion. Nothing is more likely to collapse a line of infantry in combat than the sight of a few of its number in full and unexplained flight to the rear. Sudden and unexplained motion in the wrong direction is an open invitation to disaster. As panic
spreads, a man will join a disorganized fleeing crowd without stopping to ask why they are running. When discipline breaks, only a small minority of the most hardy individuals will retain self-control. The others cannot stand fast if the circumstances appear to justify flight. The obvious fear among the panicked troops is evidence that there is something to be afraid of and to escape
from.
c. Any suggested or observed movement may be
interpreted as a means of escape and cause of sudden flight. This flight is not generally focused upon a known goal other than escape, but is rapidly canalized in a certain direction. Someone has to be the first to break and run. Studies of local panics during Korea revealed that a lack of information and the sight of running men were the real crux of the fear. It was found that those who had started to run, and who in doing so had started a panic, rationalized an excuse for their action.
d. The emotion of fear is reinforced by escape action to such a degree that reason is greatly reduced. A soldier in panic runs without much rational thought. His fear is increased by the fears of his fleeing companions, and his field of attention is narrowed. He is forgetful of honor and discipline.
e. Troops in combat are continually in the presence of a situation threatening death or bodily harm. During such times of stress, they are subject to all of the anxieties and fears conducive to panic. Experienced troops who are well trained, organized, disciplined, and led seldom give way to panic because they are confident of their ability to master any situation regardless of its critical nature. This power to resist fear and panic fluctuates according to psychological and physiological conditions of the troops, the degree of tactical success, and the physical conditions of the battlefield. You must constantly measure and strengthen the confidence of your command. You must realize that even experienced and well-trained troops have panicked in situations which appeared beyond their control as a result of rumor or unfavorable circumstances. You must sense the development of situations interpreted by the troops as critical and take action to eliminate conditions conducive to panic.
f. You should recognize and compensate or minimize the following conditions that lead to uncertainty and panic:
(1) Physical conditions-scarcity of arms and ammunition, insufficient supporting weapons, fog, darkness, woods, baptism of fire,
and introduction of new enemy weapons.
(2) Physiological conditions-hunger, thirst, fatigue, and exhaustion. (3) Psychological conditions-danger (real or imaginary), anxiety, insecurity, ignorance of the military situation, tension, and expectant waiting.
(4) Morale conditions-homesickness, lack of mail, boredom, rumor, defeatist attitude, loss of confidence in leaders, and lack of
belief in the cause.
(5) Tactical conditions-destruction ot organization, heavy losses, reverses, conflicting orders, and poor communications.
Panic is rarely caused by the strength of enemy action. There is danger of panic in a withdrawal. For this reason, carefully
control withdrawals at all times. During a rearward movement, keep troops fully informed, within the limits of security, as to why it is being done and how and where the new line of resistance will be established.
(6) Leadership conditions-absence of leaders, loss of good leaders, and lack of confidence in the ability of leaders.
g. The ultimate defense against panic lies in good leadership, not only when panic starts but also in the months of training during which the troops are becoming seasoned.
h. You must take immediate and decisive action at the first sign of panic. Unity of action is often restored by the prompt action of the leader or a few volunteers who stand squarely in the path of flight, command the men to turn back, and do not hesitate to manhandle those men who come within reach or to threaten the others with weapons. Likewise, to the soldier who is in terror and verging on panic, no influence can be more steadying than to see some other soldier near him, and especially the leader, retaining his self-control and doing his duty.

If Holdo was paying attention, Poe was showing classic signs of panic, and she was being dismissive towards him about it. They were in a retreat, and Holdo was not giving information or keeping her troops informed on why it was being done or where they were going to set up their new site of resistance. Or that there was a new site of resistance at all.

His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.

Lack of maintaining discipline/loyalty among the crew: Enough to where Rose, a non-security officer, was stationed or volunteered at the escape pods to stop deserters. This means that security for the ship was busy with other things, making desertions seem like a pressing problem.

Desertions would have likely been a problem under any officer in that scenario. Its telling that Rose had stopped multiple deserters almost immediately after Holdo took command- likely too soon for said desertions to be simply a response to her leadership.

Read what I posted on leadership. Holdo did inherit this from Leia, but she didn't maintain it and did nothing to improve it aside from one two minute speech that clearly was not doing the trick for her subordinates.

All in all, no matter Holdo's qualifications, which seem to be espionage, she was utterly out of her element as leader of a fleet.

A lot of your claims in support of this are biased, tenuous, or speculative at best, when you're not outright fabricating evidence (ie claiming Poe was Holdo's XO).

See above on the regs and Holdo not telling Poe to go talk to her subordinate, his leader.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 01:08am That's another reason why its hard to judge Holdo, as well: that the only circumstance in which we see her leadership is one where the odds are ridiculously stacked against her.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Hux had been even close to competent, then it wouldn't have mattered whether the Resistance was commanded by the Second Coming of Jar Jar Binks, or a composite of Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis, James Kirk, Captain Picard, Admiral Adama, Honor Harrington, Bel Riose, and Ender Wiggin- it would have been blown out of the sky.

Kirk, Picard, and Adama would have at least informed their crew of what they were up to, thereby preventing mutiny. Thrawn informs his subordinate to a reasonable extent, but often keeps things close to his chest. Ackbar would have probably just panicked, as they "Couldn't stand up to weapons of that magnitude". I'm not familiar enough with the rest to say.

Binks would have lucked out and won just through some freak accident. That one is oddly touched by fate.

Actually, let's compare and contrast. Both Holdo and Adama are dealing with similar situations. Pursued by the enemy, low on fuel, no reinforcements, and morale is nearly dead. Holdo tells them to have hope, and that they should survive. In contrast, here is Adama talking to his fleet:



He surveys the crew, notes that they're dispirited, and giving up hope. He sells them a lie, but he does sell them on something. By the end of the scene, everyone is back to functioning morale, if not in high spirits and cheering. That's leadership.

Too bad he didn't see Gaeta's coup coming, the causes of which include that leadership.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-03-23 02:53am Too bad he didn't see Gaeta's coup coming, the causes of which include that leadership.

Yep. Due to making allies with the Cylons who were on the losing side of the Cylon civil war. I'm sure Resistance members would have problems as well if General Hux, who ordered the destruction of Hosnian through Starkiller base wanted to defect. Probably not to the point of putting Leia up against a firing line, but there would probably be problems.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-03-23 02:03am

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 01:08am That's another reason why its hard to judge Holdo, as well: that the only circumstance in which we see her leadership is one where the odds are ridiculously stacked against her.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Hux had been even close to competent, then it wouldn't have mattered whether the Resistance was commanded by the Second Coming of Jar Jar Binks, or a composite of Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis, James Kirk, Captain Picard, Admiral Adama, Honor Harrington, Bel Riose, and Ender Wiggin- it would have been blown out of the sky.

Kirk, Picard, and Adama would have at least informed their crew of what they were up to, thereby preventing mutiny. Thrawn informs his subordinate to a reasonable extent, but often keeps things close to his chest. Ackbar would have probably just panicked, as they "Couldn't stand up to weapons of that magnitude". I'm not familiar enough with the rest to say.

Its not like Kirk or Picard never played a plan close to the chest. Kirk's actions in "The Enterprise Incident" come to mind, as do Picard's in "The Gambit". Don't really know BSG well enough to say.

Glad to see someone else hasn't bought the Ackbar hype.

Binks would have lucked out and won just through some freak accident. That one is oddly touched by fate.

Definitely an instrument of the Will of the Force.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 12:03am I would point out that Holdo has to earn the respect, and address the concerns, of the entire fleet during a crisis, not just Poe. We just see things mostly from Poe's perspective. And that their very first interaction is Poe coming up to her, questioning her (and misstating his rank in the process), and basically getting things off on the wrong foot. So I'd definitely put most of the blame on Poe, at least.

The point of being a leader is that you are someone who is entrusted with the responsibility to handle difficult egos at work. It's about being a people manager. If Holdo have encountered loads of Poe-type flyboys in her career, then she should know better than she did in people-managing Poe.

I think you give too little importance to people management as a crucial component of being a good leader. A good leader is a good people manager. Holdo isn't.

I think that the problem stems from two main things:

First, there's audience bias. Part of that is the misogyny, but on top of that there's the OT favoritism, hostility towards the ST/TLJ, the fact that Poe is a more established, pre-existing character and thus more inclined to be favored by the audience, and the fact that the audience is used to genre conventions in which the "authority" figure is corrupt or incompetent and its the lone hotshot hero who has to save the day by taking the law into their own hands. Johnson uses all of this to misdirect the audience, but because the audience is, in large part, predisposed to side with Poe, the misdirection is more believable to many than the subsequent reveal.

The second, related problem is that we don't see that much of Holdo, and most of what we do see is shown more from Poe's perspective, and showing Holdo in the worst possible light.

This makes it very difficult to evaluate her as a leader or anything else. We kind of have to piece together a character from glimpses and extrapolation.

I think it is a problem of having an vision, but failing to execute the vision properly. The misdirection doesn't work because what Holdo did wasn't just a matter of perspective. It's a case of Rian Johnson biting more than he can chew with being subversive in story-telling. He wants to subvert expectations, but to do so well, he needs to create a scenario where Holdo can come across as being a good leader regardless of whose perspective we are using. And that's really really hard to write.

Holdo needs to be a competent leader for such a subversion to work. However, Rian Johnson failed to create a narrative where Holdo is a competent leader from a different perspective.

Regarding the "is Poe Holdo's XO" question, discounting the part about not referring him to his immediate superior (the Resistance, being an irregular or semi-regular force, may have been more lax in enforcing protocols like that), it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that he is based on a) no one else being established as Holdo's XO, and b) the Resistance having been recently decapitated when the bridge was blown up. It's possible that everyone who would have been between Holdo and Poe in the chain of command was killed.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-03-23 07:52amHoldo needs to be a competent leader for such a subversion to work. However, Rian Johnson failed to create a narrative where Holdo is a competent leader from a different perspective.

It's one of the reasons why I think it would have been better if Holdo was instead written to not buy the hyperspace tracker story and was instead convinced that there was a mole.

Civil War Man wrote: ↑2019-03-23 12:24pm It's one of the reasons why I think it would have been better if Holdo was instead written to not buy the hyperspace tracker story and was instead convinced that there was a mole.

That will be better, especially if Rian Johnson has given us good reasons from Holdo's perspective to be distrustful of a mole, and Poe refusing to see things from her POV.

Holdo will be making a mistake, but it is a reasonable mistake for her to make. The problem is when you're trying to write a narrative that deflects any blame from Holdo, and that makes the whole storyline fall apart and making Holdo look even worse.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 03:05am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-03-23 02:03am

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 01:08am That's another reason why its hard to judge Holdo, as well: that the only circumstance in which we see her leadership is one where the odds are ridiculously stacked against her.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Hux had been even close to competent, then it wouldn't have mattered whether the Resistance was commanded by the Second Coming of Jar Jar Binks, or a composite of Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis, James Kirk, Captain Picard, Admiral Adama, Honor Harrington, Bel Riose, and Ender Wiggin- it would have been blown out of the sky.

Kirk, Picard, and Adama would have at least informed their crew of what they were up to, thereby preventing mutiny. Thrawn informs his subordinate to a reasonable extent, but often keeps things close to his chest. Ackbar would have probably just panicked, as they "Couldn't stand up to weapons of that magnitude". I'm not familiar enough with the rest to say.

Its not like Kirk or Picard never played a plan close to the chest. Kirk's actions in "The Enterprise Incident" come to mind, as do Picard's in "The Gambit". Don't really know BSG well enough to say.

Picard was kidnapped while undercover and off the ship, thus rolling with the punches. Kirk had a few confederates involved, including McCoy and Spock, and brought people in once he could.

Holdo is a spy, so she's probably used to such procedures. But it goes against the atmosphere of a command, in which trust in your commanders is a huge priority, and maintaining that trust is a priority for leaders.

Civil War Man wrote: ↑2019-03-22 11:04am At the very least, I think she was poorly suited for the role she was forced to fill in the movie. Maybe she's much better under other circumstances (I don't follow the EU, so I don't know how she's portrayed elsewhere), and this is a case of the old saying "You get promoted to your level of incompetence," but that's the impression I got. Maybe she's a great ship commander, but not good at running a fleet. Maybe she's like Ambrose Burnside, where she's good at planning and coming up with clever strategies, but has trouble adjusting those plans when things go wrong. Regardless, whether she's good under certain circumstances or just a generally bad leader, she strikes me as not being the type of commander that was needed at that time.

For me, the biggest mark against her is that she seems to be poor at managing low morale. Now, the morale problem apparently wasn't universal, since a lot of information was intentionally withheld from the audience for the sake of having a plot twist, but it still showed poor morale management because what we did see was dire. Evidence of major desertion problems, in that Rose stopped multiple desertion attempts at just one of the escape pods. Unless every deserter just happened to try to use that pod, it's evidence of a much larger and more widespread desertion problem. Lots of people were also apparently just left to their own devices, including members of the command staff. Poe himself is kept in the dark and given nothing to do, which both makes it easier for him to go behind Holdo's back with his own plan, and also makes him feel like he has to go behind her back because he thinks the plan is to just sit around and wait for the inevitable. The same is likely true for the crew members who join him in the mutiny, which even includes some of the bridge crew. Rose also paints a pretty bleak picture, since the part where she was stopping desertions appears to have been entirely done on her own initiative, as opposed to being stationed there, if for no other reason than because when she and Finn sneak off to Canto Bight, no one ever seems to notice that she's gone.

I kinda think this was the entire point of her arc. Holdo seems like a good strategist whose competence level is as a skilled staff officer. She's out of her depth as the overall leader and normally that's fine because that's Leia and Akbar's job. The Resistance itself is an ad hoc volunteer force that needs all the talent it can get so she's relatively senior in the chain of command and there literally isn't any one else to take charge when the bridge blows up.

Contrast to Poe who is a skilled small unit commander and star-fighter tactician who is likewise completely out of his depth when it comes to broader strategy. Both are hugely flawed for the situation they're thrust into. They'd each be fine if Leia was in charge, putting them in their proper roles, but she's out of commission and somebody else needs to take the reigns but the Resistance isn't a professional outfit like the US Army that many critiques are based on, its whichever volunteers decided to show up for an unpopular cause that's being held together by duct tape and hope.

Which is broadly one of the major themes of the film. Pretty much everyone is trying to be something they aren't, attempting to recreate roles from the past rather than be the what they need to be for the situation. A wannabe Palpatine is leading a small force of wannabe Imperialist against a small band of wannabe Rebels. They all kinda suck at it and its the characters who get past this and try and be something new are the ones who start being effective.

Coop D'etat wrote: ↑2019-03-23 05:30pm Which is broadly one of the major themes of the film. Pretty much everyone is trying to be something they aren't, attempting to recreate roles from the past rather than be the what they need to be for the situation. A wannabe Palpatine is leading a small force of wannabe Imperialist against a small band of wannabe Rebels. They all kinda suck at it and its the characters who get past this and try and be something new are the ones who start being effective.

Which is problematic in itself, as we don't get a sense of how big the First Order really is. Rey says that they'll take over/topple the New Republic in a matter of weeks. Unless the NR or it's military is comically small, the First Order is large enough to be considered a threat to what seems to be a major player in the galaxy.

Yet The Last Jedi makes the fight between the Resistance and the First Order feel more like a small gang fight rather than an epic war deciding the fate of the galaxy. So I don't know what kind of scale we're supposed to take the conflict at.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-03-23 06:19pm

Coop D'etat wrote: ↑2019-03-23 05:30pm Which is broadly one of the major themes of the film. Pretty much everyone is trying to be something they aren't, attempting to recreate roles from the past rather than be the what they need to be for the situation. A wannabe Palpatine is leading a small force of wannabe Imperialist against a small band of wannabe Rebels. They all kinda suck at it and its the characters who get past this and try and be something new are the ones who start being effective.

Which is problematic in itself, as we don't get a sense of how big the First Order really is. Rey says that they'll take over/topple the New Republic in a matter of weeks. Unless the NR or it's military is comically small, the First Order is large enough to be considered a threat to what seems to be a major player in the galaxy.

Yet The Last Jedi makes the fight between the Resistance and the First Order feel more like a small gang fight rather than an epic war deciding the fate of the galaxy. So I don't know what kind of scale we're supposed to take the conflict at.

My impression is that it was a localized fight between violent idiots on the fringes of the galaxy that society was collectively shrugging about, but the First Order has managed to build themselves up to something of a real threat and changed the game by Pearl Harboring the Republic fleet that everyone was relying on stomping on them if they got out of line with a trick superweapon. Now its a collective action problem, where nobody likes the guys with Star Destroyers running around committing atrocities, but nobody wants to be the first to stand up to them and risk being caught out alone and stomped on themselves.

So the perception of their unstopability is doing most of the work is. Like most fascist movements they are more the image of strength than actual strength, doubly so for wannabe neo-fascists. But to beat the perception, you need a counter-narrative to rally around, which the Resistance doesn't have until the end of the film. Hence Luke's solution at the end. A Jedi Master showing up and womping on them a bit isn't going to help, its going to let everyone keep on passing the buck, safe in the delusion some chosen one do all the work of saving them for them. A Jedi showing up and standing up them, demonstrating that these FO pricks are a bunch of lame posers you don't have to be so scared of is a resistance narrative with some legs that might inspire people to get off the bench and save themselves.

This is a matter of reading between the lines on the film and given them credit for probably having a decent core of ideas that they aren't conveying very clearly. I like it better than Episode VII, which was superficially fun in a nostalgia way but not really about anything, but can see how mileage will vary.

I think the sequel trilogy is very poorly set up. Trying to be vague about world-building because it somehow works for the OT is causing more harm than good for the trilogy as a whole.

But this is getting off-topic now.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-03-23 07:37pm I think the sequel trilogy is very poorly set up. Trying to be vague about world-building because it somehow works for the OT is causing more harm than good for the trilogy as a whole.

But this is getting off-topic now.

Being vague about world building worked for the OT because there was nothing there apart from the films, so it felt like there was bigger world out there and story was focusing on the parts that were important. With the sequel trilogy there was the problem that even after the EU purge there's still tons of pre-existing world built there and being vague about it seems more like being lazy/intentionally vague about important parts of the story rather then focusing on the important parts.

I think the thin world-building is at least partly due to how, whenever they try to world-build some more, fans whinge about it. Remember all the complaining about the "boring politics" in the PT Senate scenes? Or, hell, the endless complaints about how bad Canto Bite is (which, let's face it, at least half of that is probably that its a sub-plot starring non-white/male characters, and half the rest is "animal rights pussies hur dur").

So yeah, they're afraid to world-build. Because they haven't figured out yet that trying to please the fan base is a fool's errand.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-24 05:24pmI think the thin world-building is at least partly due to how, whenever they try to world-build some more, fans whinge about it.

You have a passionate fan base, they will give opinions, some negative, no matter what choices you make. It's on you as a professional to look past that and make the best movie possible, not the movie that fans while whinge the least about. I have zero respect for productions teams that cave to fan pressure and even less for studios that mandate such caving.

Remember all the complaining about the "boring politics" in the PT Senate scenes?

The PT had enough issues that people never bought into the politics and even in those political scenes the dialogue and flow was poorly positioned. You could have kept the jist of all the PT's political games by simply having characters reacting to the aftermath of political meetings, new laws, and the start of the clone wars. Make the changes seem inevitable by not even giving them a chance, on screen at least, to fight against them.

Then show Palpatine gloating by giving condolences that we as an audience know was full of shit but that are delivered completely straight on screen. That takes a great actor, and that PT, more than the OT which sought to tell a simpler small story, suffered from casting choices that make executing even the script that was there more difficult than it should have been.

Or, hell, the endless complaints about how bad Canto Bite is (which, let's face it, at least half of that is probably that its a sub-plot starring non-white/male characters, and half the rest is "animal rights pussies hur dur").

First off, why build a strawman about why people disliked Canto Bite? It's petty as fuck and serves no purpose.

Second, Canto Bite sucked because it was an obvious B-plot designed to give a couple of characters that we're given anything better to do screen time. It felt tacked on and pointless because it was tacked on and pointless.

Then again I thought the chase plot, and all the issues it created, was also a bad way to recreate the tension of ESB so maybe I there was no way I was ever going to buy into something like Canto Bite because of that.

So yeah, they're afraid to world-build. Because they haven't figured out yet that trying to please the fan base is a fool's errand.

More like Disney doesn't care about world building in any of their franchises and thus we're never going to get any long term planning or tight continuity for the Star Wars sequels and the extended universe from now on. Disney wants to put out semi-annual blockbusters with a built-in fan base and making them complicated and concerned with world build and continuity might alienate the most casual moviegoer.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-24 05:24pm I think the thin world-building is at least partly due to how, whenever they try to world-build some more, fans whinge about it. Remember all the complaining about the "boring politics" in the PT Senate scenes? Or, hell, the endless complaints about how bad Canto Bite is (which, let's face it, at least half of that is probably that its a sub-plot starring non-white/male characters, and half the rest is "animal rights pussies hur dur").

So yeah, they're afraid to world-build. Because they haven't figured out yet that trying to please the fan base is a fool's errand.

If SW can survive fans whining about women, non-white actors and identity politics, they can survive doing some world-building. My main issue with the Disney SW films is that they've given in to the 40s-50s years old fanboys that whined about the prequels, and thus resulting in a sequel trilogy that tries too hard to hark back to the OT at the expense of expanding upon the SW universe.

The damage has already been done, and it's way too late to salvage the trilogy to make it an interesting conflict to explore.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-03-24 05:51pm More like Disney doesn't care about world building in any of their franchises and thus we're never going to get any long term planning or tight continuity for the Star Wars sequels and the extended universe from now on. Disney wants to put out semi-annual blockbusters with a built-in fan base and making them complicated and concerned with world build and continuity might alienate the most casual moviegoer.

It depends on who is in charge of LFL. Marvel has decent world-building because it's run by someone that do care about world-building in Kevin Feige. SW is run by a president that dumped the world-building responsibility onto a team and let directors have full control over world-building ( or lack of it). You don't need super complicated and in-depth political narratives to do decent world-building. Giving the audience some idea about how the galaxy as a whole functioned is sufficient.

If casual viewers can sit through blockbuster shows like Game of Thrones that spent ages on politics, introducing political elements to the SW movies will not alienate the casual viewers. The main problem is Disney tried to do a quick cashgrab by trying to invoke as many nostalgic moment for the OT fans as possible, even at the expense of building an interesting world worth exploring post ROTJ.

Eh, I think it would be quite easy to fill the gaps with some stand alone films. You can do a lot to show an old film in a new light with a strong sequel- I'll cite Infinity War, which actually strengthened Civil War for me retroactively, by negating one of my main complaints (that there were no real, lasting consequences for said civil war). Or Rogue One, which arguably made an already strong film (A New Hope) even stronger, by showing just how much effort and sacrifice went into getting those plans.

Edit: Mind you, I don't think JJ Abrams is likely to be the best man for the job.