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Given all the speculation around Palpatine's possible role in Episode IX, I decided to post this. I'm making it Rey and Kylo vs Palpatine, because I figured it was a foregone conclusion that he could take either of them alone.

The fight takes place in a room not dissimilar to Palpatine's throne room in RotJ. All combatants are armed with their lightsaber. Rey and Kylo's abilities are as of the end of TLJ, plus anything shown in the Episode IX trailer (so we can add Force-assisted leaps to Rey's capabilities). Palpatine's abilities are as shown in Revenge of the Sith. However, we will assume that there is no "Shroud of the Dark Side" limiting Rey and Kylo like there was for the Prequel Jedi who faced Palpatine. The fight is to the death.

Who wins?

Kylo's jacked up mang in TLJ. He can stop blaster bolts mid-air too. I think together with Rey, who isn't a slouch, they have a fair chance against peak fighty ROTS Palpatine, psychocrusher aside.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2019-04-14 10:39am Kylo's jacked up mang in TLJ. He can stop blaster bolts mid-air too. I think together with Rey, who isn't a slouch, they have a fair chance against peak fighty ROTS Palpatine, psychocrusher aside.

I'd guess, based on their origins and abilities, that Kylo is probably just short of Palpatine in theoretical potential/power, and Rey probably well above him, if she were fully trained (personal theory only, but I see her as another iteration/reincarnation of the Chosen One, and thus an Anakin-peer, although having two parents rather than being conceived by the Force might tell against that). The problem is, Kylo is unfocussed a lot of the time, and Rey isn't fully trained or experienced. Her connection to the Force is strong enough to let her get through fighting mid-level opponents mostly on instinct, but there are high-end techniques she hasn't demonstrated yet.

The biggest weakness, as I've mentioned before, is that she has never demonstrated an ability to use or block combat telekinesis, which is a mark of a high-end combat Force user. I'm not too worried about the Force lightning, because sabers can block that, but Palpatine is really, really good at combat telekinesis, as shown in the Senate fight, where he threw multiple Senate pods simultaneously at Yoda, or his duel with Maul and Savage in The Clone Wars, where he was basically tossing them around or pinning them like rag dolls with the Force, and pretty clearly only bothered with a saber fight to indulge himself. The Clone Wars fight is if anything even more damning for Rey and Kylo here, because it shows that two opponents with raw power plus saber skills isn't going to cut it against Palpatine, even if they can close to melee range- he's so good at combat TK that even if he's fending off two saber-wielding opponents at once, or falling through mid-air, he can still use it effectively in a fight. You need to be able to counter him telekinetically to have much of a chance.

Senate fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu3qoIsGzUM

Clone Wars fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

(I'm not going to factor in his killing three Jedi in seconds in RotS, because they pretty much just stood there except for Windu and Fisto, and I always kind of take that to be the Shroud of the Dark Side cancelling out their abilities).

Kylo MIGHT be able to employ TK effectively in combat conditions, extrapolating from his freezing Poe's blaster bolt and immobilizing Rey with the Force in TFA, though we've never seen him do it against an opponent of Palpatine's caliber. But Rey isn't there yet. So Palpatine can probably just chuck Rey across the room hard enough to knock her out, thus turning it into a one on one fight with Kylo. And while Kylo might have the theoretical power for that fight (Skywalker heritage, after all), he strikes me as too emotionally-undisciplined to use it effectively a lot of the time.

Edit: And here's the canon for what happens to Rey vs. someone who can use telekinesis offensively in combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOOD26I49VM

The Emperor mops the floor with them both. He is trained to peak levels by his Master. He knows lightsaber techniques, was able to go up against Masters of lightsaber fighting, Yoda and Mace Windu. He is trained in, as you put it... combat TK enough to kick the snot out of Yoda. He is able to go up against multiple opponents at once with Jedi powers and obliterate them in ROTS and Clone Wars with Maul and Savage.

Unless it is some pivotal moment that the Force has decreed that Palpatine must lose, then there is no way Rey and Ren can beat him.

Knife wrote: ↑2019-04-14 06:00pm The Emperor mops the floor with them both. He is trained to peak levels by his Master. He knows lightsaber techniques, was able to go up against Masters of lightsaber fighting, Yoda and Mace Windu. He is trained in, as you put it... combat TK enough to kick the snot out of Yoda. He is able to go up against multiple opponents at once with Jedi powers and obliterate them in ROTS and Clone Wars with Maul and Savage.

Unless it is some pivotal moment that the Force has decreed that Palpatine must lose, then there is no way Rey and Ren can beat him.

The question then would be: what would it take to make this a winnable fight? How much would either Rey, Kylo, or both have to improve? And again, I come back to combat TK.

The reason I focus on combat TK is basically two-fold:

1. While Force powers, and individual Force users, are often portrayed highly inconsistently in canon, the ability to use TK in combat, and especially to reliably use telekinesis in combat, is pretty consistently reserved, at least in the films and the EU I'm familiar with, for high end individuals- Jedi masters and Sith Lords with an emphasis on combative techniques. A likely explanation for this being that it takes a great deal of focus to effectively use telekinesis while under attack/in combat conditions (hence, for example, why Dooku in the original Clone Wars shorts emphasized how Grievous must first have surprise and intimidation on his side if he wished to defeat the best Jedi). Thus, it isn't necessarily something that you can use just by having a lot of raw power and good instincts. You have to have emotional self-control, discipline, and experience. Therefore, I would actually argue that the mastery of combat TK is perhaps the single most reliable yard stick by which to measure true mastery of the Force, or at least the combative aspects of its use.

2. It is pretty much THE glaring gap in Rey's skill set when it comes to combat (again, see her fight with Snoke). Which would seem to strengthen the theory that it is something that relies on experience and mental discipline, rather than innate power/potential or instinct.

Now, I'll reiterate that based on how quickly she picked up the Force with minimal training, Rey is probably Anakin-tier or close to it in terms of theoretical potential, or at least Luke-tier. While Kylo is probably a bit weaker in peak potential (he seems to be roughly on par with Rey despite much more training and experience), but probably still at least close to Vader level based on Snoke's and Luke's dialogue and his Skywalker heritage. So even considering their lesser experience and Kylo's lack of emotional discipline, they certainly have the potential, between them, to surpass old Sheev. So I would say that the outcome basically hinges on: Can they counter Palpatine's telekinesis? If no, then that would be the main skill they would have to pick up by the next film if it is, in fact, going to pit one or both of them against Palpatine.

Mind you, Kylo clearly does have some ability in this arena (Force-blasting Luke through the wall of his hut while simultaneously defending himself with his saber, which I forgot to mention before, in addition to the afforementioned examples). So you may be underrating Kylo here. But the problem is that Kylo is likely to be highly inconsistent in his abilities due to his self-doubt and emotional instability. A hypothetical peak Kylo with perfect emotional discipline could probably challenge Palpatine at least a little, though I still think Palpatine would take it in the end due to greater experience and saber skill and a possible slight edge in raw power. But in practice, I don't think he's together enough psychologically to handle such an experienced opponent, especially since Palpatine would probably be employing taunts and intimidation to further unbalance him.

Whereas Rey will probably be less easily unbalanced and has more power, but even less training in using it effectively.

Edit: Essentially, you need a combination of power, experience, and self-discipline to handle a top tier fight. Both of them on their own have two thirds of what it takes to handle a top-tier fight. Rey lacks experience, and Kylo lacks self-discipline.