StarDestroyer.Net BBS

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to2SMng4u1k/youtube]

Just a fanfilm recreating the fight between Vader and Obi-Wan might look like, if they hired a fight choreographer back in the day. I enjoy the fast paced, dynamic action. This is the kind of energy I hoped to see in a Star Wars movie, rather than action scenes that tried to make fights look more "brutal".

Fixed link.

<squee>

Yowza. Echoing some of the comments on YT, in my mind this is now How It Happened.

Good:the more dynamic camera (for the most part the shaky cam was soon much for me), as well some shots.

Bad:most of the fight itself, it lost the story element in favor of cool visuals. Obi-wan versus Vader should be less like battle at Mustafar and more like encounter with 2 old master swordfighters. the pace shouldn't beat after beat after beat, but rather beat, beat, pause and repeat that with minor variation (mostly how many attacks are done before the next pause).

Neither Obi-wan nor Vader would want commit fully, since they're not stupid and Obi-wan knows he's getting old and out of pratice, while I'm sure Vader remembers fully well what happened the last time charged at Obi-wan like an enraged beast (aka he ended up loosing 4 of his limbs and had his body covered in 3rd degree burns) and would also hold back.

Feels a lot like "action for actions sake" to me and weaker than the original - it looks cooler, but something is lacking there.
( IMO If you add some loud noises just before the really good action parts, it would actually fit in a modern hollywood movie)

This is a parody, right? It's mocking modern Star Wars by showing how hollow and lifeless the original would have been with modern action movie sensibilities, right?

What Bob said. This may look 'cooler' but the original was massively more appropriate to the story that was told.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-08 02:54pmThis is the kind of energy I hoped to see in a Star Wars movie, rather than action scenes that tried to make fights look more "brutal".

So what do you think of the Luke/Vader fight in Jedi, which probably has the most brutal lightsabre
combat of the original six films?

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-05-08 08:00pm So what do you think of the Luke/Vader fight in Jedi, which probably has the most brutal lightsabre
combat of the original six films?

I think it is ok, but not really anything special. I don't quite like the overall rhythm of the fight, and without the music, it would have been a rather average fight scene.

definitely heavy modern influences, particularly the hallway scene in Rogue One

I get what they were going for using that music, but it really doesn't fit there.

Uh, ANH's fight choreography WAS done by actual pros who knew real actual swordplay. Maybe the original could be remastered with more "meaty" sabers and sounds, since back then the look and feel and effects process of the sabers were still first-gen whereas by ESB and ROTJ the methods had developed. But the choreo and movements of Obi-Wan and Vader were more than fine IMO.

The choreo of this fan-vid is fine, but there's the belabored length of the fight scene. Obi-Wan was merely buying time for Luke and Leia and co. The second they could escape, he stopped and let Vader swing. The idea of it was precisely because what Kenobi was doing wasn't fighting for fighting's sake, he was above that, which is in line with the themes of Jedi and which recurs with Luke in ROTJ and Luke in TLJ. Whereas the Jedi and Kenobi failed ideologically, metaphysically and thematically precisely when they were being so badassssss as shown in the Prequels.

I think fan-creaming badasssss Vader fights would be better suited to opponents other than Kenobi in ANH. Like all those Starkillers and Roan Shrines and Kanans and Ezras and Exar-kuns and Exar-chans and Exar-tans and Exar-sans and Exar-samas and Triclopses and Cyclopses and Shak-Tis and Ahsokas and whatnot, those hundreds of Jedi who survived Order 66 and have riveting tales in the years between the PT and OT, as chronicled in the EU and the UN and the OPEC and G8 and NATO and SEATO, these brave fellows who fought alongside DASH RENDAR who smuggled the Order 66 survivors away from certain doom in his GIANT SHOULDERPADS after all those endless badasss fights with Vader where the protagonists just narrowly escape certain death while Vader looms in the background perhaps with some badass damage and a lot of fire and burning things.

I will say that the viscousness with which Vader strikes down Kenobi here feels more appropriate.

The original is constrained by the effects of the time, and that it was a stuntman in an extremely heavy suit vs a classically trained 63 year old man. The fight is a lot of them striking at each other's weapons, not each other. Which fits with the "fighting as a delaying action" theme but not so much the "this is intensely personal" theme. I think the former is more important as it shows Kenobi's growth and the example he sets for Luke, but the latter showing that the dark side has made Vader a prisoner of his own hate and kept him where he was is good to. I think the ending cutdown and a few of the shots like when Vader is first seeking Kenobi help that

Maybe have Vader go full sith versus Saw Gerrera and his revolutionaries next time. Forest Whitaker could only be humbled by the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2019-05-09 04:55am Uh, ANH's fight choreography WAS done by actual pros who knew real actual swordplay. Maybe the original could be remastered with more "meaty" sabers and sounds, since back then the look and feel and effects process of the sabers were still first-gen whereas by ESB and ROTJ the methods had developed. But the choreo and movements of Obi-Wan and Vader were more than fine IMO.

Actually, neither David Prowess nor Alec Guinness knew actual swordplay. What we saw on screen is just them hitting each other with no actual choreography. So what you are claiming is not true at all.

I find the choreography to be extremely dated and boring to watch.

Batman wrote: ↑2019-05-08 07:42pm What Bob said. This may look 'cooler' but the original was massively more appropriate to the story that was told.

It really should be possible to do both- to have a fight that doesn't look stiff and clunky, but where the effects don't compromise the story. In fact, we know it is, because Star Wars struck that balance repeatedly in subsequent films.

Effects don't HAVE to come at the expense of story.

As to the video itself, it doesn't look OT style, or even film style. Its very much taking its stylistic lead from the Old Republic MMO trailers.

Which in live action, in this setting, with this dialogue, just feels melodramatic to me. It looks pretty, yeah, but... its just off. It doesn't take much from the story to me, but it sure as hell doesn't add anything much of value either.

The important thing to remember her, story-wise, is that Kenobi wasn't trying to kill Vader. Kenobi knew he couldn't win that fight. His only goal was to hold Vader off long enough for Luke to get away, and then join with the Force. Does this really capture that? I don't know. Kenobi is certainly on the defensive for most of the fight- in fact he feels much more outclassed here than in original. But I'm not sure that helps. The sense here, to me at least, is more "old man doesn't know when he's out of his league, gets ass kicked", rather than "old master sacrifices himself so his apprentice can continue, outsmarting his more powerful but less wise opponent".

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:10pmActually, neither David Prowess nor Alec Guinness knew actual swordplay. What we saw on screen is just them hitting each other with no actual choreography. So what you are claiming is not true at all.

I find the choreography to be extremely dated and boring to watch.

Weren't they all choreographed by Peter Diamond?

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:30pm Weren't they all choreographed by Peter Diamond?

Apparently that was for Ep 4, but not Ep 5 and 6. Bob Anderson was the one doing the swordfighting as Vader, because David Prowes simply cannot master the fight choreography.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/movi ... at-89.html

He was uncredited in the part; the role was voiced by James Earl Jones and played by David Prowse, a hulking actor, 6 feet 7 inches tall, who was simply not good with a saber. Mr. Anderson stepped in, and though he was six inches shorter than Mr. Prowse, his identity was a secret until Mark Hamill disclosed it in an interview.

“I finally told George I didn’t think it was fair any more,” Mr. Hamill told Starlog, a science fiction magazine. “Bob worked so bloody hard that he deserves some recognition.” Robert James Gilbert Anderson was born on Sept. 15, 1922, in Hampshire, England, southwest of London. Survivors include his wife, Pearl, three children and several grandchildren.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:16pm It really should be possible to do both- to have a fight that doesn't look stiff and clunky, but where the effects don't compromise the story. In fact, we know it is, because Star Wars struck that balance repeatedly in subsequent films.

Effects don't HAVE to come at the expense of story.

Many of the OT fans tend to take the position that it's either their way or the highway. I think their dogmatism is having a negative effect on the overall entertainment value of the new films, especially for newer fans.

I actually think this is one of the weaker grounds to criticize the Sequels. I liked their fight scene choreography- it feels like a blend between the cruder, more basic moves of the Original Trilogy, and the slicker, flashier look of the Prequels. And argue all you want over the merits of the plot and characters, I don't think that the choreography or effects significantly undermined them.

Ender wrote: ↑2019-05-09 07:37am I will say that the viscousness with which Vader strikes down Kenobi here feels more appropriate.

The original is constrained by the effects of the time, and that it was a stuntman in an extremely heavy suit vs a classically trained 63 year old man. The fight is a lot of them striking at each other's weapons, not each other. Which fits with the "fighting as a delaying action" theme but not so much the "this is intensely personal" theme. I think the former is more important as it shows Kenobi's growth and the example he sets for Luke, but the latter showing that the dark side has made Vader a prisoner of his own hate and kept him where he was is good to. I think the ending cutdown and a few of the shots like when Vader is first seeking Kenobi help that

Yes, this fight should be Vader's rage vs. Kenobi's stalling. More specifically, Vader's controlled rage- not reckless flailing about, but deliberately, relentlessly pushing Kenobi back, while Kenobi the defensive master blocks or evades all his attacks, only increasing Vader's frustration and fury. Until finally Kenobi sees that Luke is clear, and the only thing keeping Luke from running is his concern for Kenobi, and then he allows Vader to strike him down.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-09 07:36pm I actually think this is one of the weaker grounds to criticize the Sequels. I liked their fight scene choreography- it feels like a blend between the cruder, more basic moves of the Original Trilogy, and the slicker, flashier look of the Prequels. And argue all you want over the merits of the plot and characters, I don't think that the choreography or effects significantly undermined them.

I think the fight scenes in the ST are better choreographed than the ones in the OT. I just don't think both of them are particularly enjoyable on their own. It just feels like the new directors are trying too hard to overcompensate for the perceived flaws of the prequels.

No offense, but... is there any Star Wars you actually do like?

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-09 08:59pm No offense, but... is there any Star Wars you actually do like?

I enjoy all the 6 Lucas Star Wars movies. I enjoy episodes of the Clone Wars.

I just don't think the fight scenes in the OT are anything to rave about. I'm just bored about people making the assumption that I don't like any Star Wars just because I don't treat everything in the OT like some sacred cow.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:55pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:30pm Weren't they all choreographed by Peter Diamond?

Apparently that was for Ep 4, but not Ep 5 and 6. Bob Anderson was the one doing the swordfighting as Vader, because David Prowes simply cannot master the fight choreography.

So there you have it, the fights -were- done by pros who've choreographed swordfights - by done I mean they guided the actors (like how the Bourne franchise's fights are "done" by Jeff Imada and his people. In the case of ESB and ROTJ they got someone who was incredible, Bob Anderson. The development of the swordfighting style in ESB and ROTJ matches the practical and special effects development of the lightsaber too, since IIRC earlier on they thought the mechanics of wielding the lightsaber was more cumbersome (wasn't the saber hilt initially conceptualized to be this heavy whirring thing, though eventually the idea evolved into the swishy easy to swing thing in the prequels).

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:10pm I find the choreography to be extremely dated and boring to watch.

In ANH Kenobi was just stalling for time so I don't really think he should be doing super badasss moves. Kind of like how Gandalf holding off the Balrog was more magical and epic and memorable than the Hobbit's magical tag team match of Saruman, Galadriel and Elrond in Gol-Dulgur.

IMO the ESB and ROTJ fight scenes were riveting and weren't impractical. As a weapon art practitioner they make me happy. The meatiness of TFA and TLJ's fight scenes are reminiscent of that and also work for me, particularly gut-shot Kylo vs. pissed Rey.

The choreo of the prequels shouldn't be discredited. Maul was great. The way they did Dooku was also great. I think the films just belabored it, ala ROTS, and the psychology wasn't as solid. Lucas was so into Jedi cool badasss that it was de-mystified. Like if LOTR fans were indulged so we could see awesome cool badassssss Gandalf, and we get scenes where he spell-spams like in some MMORPG, Harry Potter films, or like in other weaker-ass wannabe-epic fantasy books.

For Dooku, Christopher Lee was a fencer and did as much of his fight scenes as possible, so that might have something to do with it.