Rise of Skywalkers reviews (Spoilers in this thread)

[ray245]

I've already been spoiled and had most of the spoilers confirmed by people who have seen the movie, so let's open a discussion about this movie.


It's currently rotten on RT, with a number of critics outright savaging this movie.

One of them in particular:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmende ... bf3504113c

The Rise of Skywalker is possibly worse than any prior Star Wars “episode.” It ends a legendary franchise with a thud while denying this new trilogy its artistic reason for existence. It represents the cultural theft of Star Wars from today’s kids by today’s arrested-development-stricken adults. Star Wars was a franchise first and foremost for children, and the kids who grew up with Harry Potter, The Hunger Games and the MCU have embraced harsh truths and challenging narratives. Lucasfilm and Disney’s The Rise of Skywalker feels explicitly crafted for the “Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars!” and “George Lucas ruined my childhood!” demographics, right down to its near erasure of Kelly Marie Tran’s Rose Tico. It’s bad enough that adults no longer see grown-up movies in theaters, but now yesterday’s geeks who have taken over pop culture feel entitled to have the kid-friendly franchises aimed at them as well.

Ouch. This seems to validate what I feel about the OT generation of fans. Pop culture exist solely to cater to them or they'll throw their toys out like a bunch of toddlers.

[Ace Pace]

Just came back from seeing it.

So lets get the important thing out of the way. The skywalker line is over in a total rollercoaster ride of a movie. Very few twists that really surprised me, but I had a lot of fun.

The bad
• Chewie’s non death was total fanservice. He could have died and nothing would have changed in the plot and the characters arc would be improved. Instead, he finishes the movie alone, nearly all his friends dead. I don’t understand why he sticks around.
• C-3PO non death. His sacrifice for his friends was ruined by R2D2 having a backup of his memories. WAT. Generally, R2D2 was totally a deus ex machina for that.
• Leia. Yes, she was needed for the plot, but I felt a bit creeped out by just how active she was in this movie. Not sure how they did the audio fakery but it was really good
The weird can be summed up by fan service. Total. Fan Service. You want something? It’s in there. Lando, yes. Han Solo, yes. Luke, yes. Fucking Ashoka was in there. I can’t think of a single thing fans wanted that didn’t go into the movie.

The good however was really good. The Rey/Kylo arc was done really well. Telegraphed but done well. Makes sense for Ben to step back when his mother died and makes sense for Rey to bring him back to life. I think there’s probably a lot to say there (queue the haters) but Reys fears of being alone make sense and Kylo being afraid of going back to his family makes sense.

And i’m happy Kylo is dead. The Skywalkers line is over and with it, the story of Star Wars.

Which brings to me to the movies biggest failing. It’s basically a re-roll of Return of the Jedi with some beats mixed up. There’s nothing really new in terms of story elements and the last last shot of Ray saying she is a Skywalker really throws away her “I’m a nobody” act. Generally her lineage is a total copout.

I still really enjoyed being in the theater and will probably see it again.

[ray245]

Just came back from seeing it.

So lets get the important thing out of the way. The skywalker line is over in a total rollercoaster ride of a movie. Very few twists that really surprised me, but I had a lot of fun.

The bad
• Chewie’s non death was total fanservice. He could have died and nothing would have changed in the plot and the characters arc would be improved. Instead, he finishes the movie alone, nearly all his friends dead. I don’t understand why he sticks around.
• C-3PO non death. His sacrifice for his friends was ruined by R2D2 having a backup of his memories. WAT. Generally, R2D2 was totally a deus ex machina for that.
• Leia. Yes, she was needed for the plot, but I felt a bit creeped out by just how active she was in this movie. Not sure how they did the audio fakery but it was really good
The weird can be summed up by fan service. Total. Fan Service. You want something? It’s in there. Lando, yes. Han Solo, yes. Luke, yes. Fucking Ashoka was in there. I can’t think of a single thing fans wanted that didn’t go into the movie.

The good however was really good. The Rey/Kylo arc was done really well. Telegraphed but done well. Makes sense for Ben to step back when his mother died and makes sense for Rey to bring him back to life. I think there’s probably a lot to say there (queue the haters) but Reys fears of being alone make sense and Kylo being afraid of going back to his family makes sense.

And i’m happy Kylo is dead. The Skywalkers line is over and with it, the story of Star Wars.

Which brings to me to the movies biggest failing. It’s basically a re-roll of Return of the Jedi with some beats mixed up. There’s nothing really new in terms of story elements and the last last shot of Ray saying she is a Skywalker really throws away her “I’m a nobody” act. Generally her lineage is a total copout.

I still really enjoyed being in the theater and will probably see it again.

What do you think about the exposition dump? And some of the world-building elements?

[Ace Pace]

What do you think about the exposition dump? And some of the world-building elements?

The exposition dump being where Rey comes from or the Sith world? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

The world building elements are interesting. There's basically a lot of throwbacks but to ignore those and just pick out the important ones.

Poe having a shifty background. This is interesting, he's not a great pilot because he's just amazing and in love with the Resistance, but because he came from the underworld and picked this path and committed to it. In a way, a cleaner Han Solo. I enjoyed it and wish it had more time on screen.

Haxx being a spy was wonderful. It showed First Order characters as being independent and having their own arc. His reasons for being a spy were amazing and very..realistic. "I want to see Kylo lose," is a very realistic motivator for a spy. Shame he got executed.

I'm not sure what other interesting world building happened. The Knights of Ren were discarded as quickly as they were introduced and it's not clear who were all those people in the Sith Chamber in the final scene. The huge mass of ships in the end has interesting political discussions possible around it but I'm not sure I'd count that as worldbuilding.

[ray245]

The exposition dump being where Rey comes from or the Sith world? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Basically all of it. How are they handled, whether it feels like an info-dump in one go, or if it's carefully disseminated in an organic-feeling way?

The world building elements are interesting. There's basically a lot of throwbacks but to ignore those and just pick out the important ones.

Poe having a shifty background. This is interesting, he's not a great pilot because he's just amazing and in love with the Resistance, but because he came from the underworld and picked this path and committed to it. In a way, a cleaner Han Solo. I enjoyed it and wish it had more time on screen.

Haxx being a spy was wonderful. It showed First Order characters as being independent and having their own arc. His reasons for being a spy were amazing and very..realistic. "I want to see Kylo lose," is a very realistic motivator for a spy. Shame he got executed.

I'm not sure what other interesting world building happened. The Knights of Ren were discarded as quickly as they were introduced and it's not clear who were all those people in the Sith Chamber in the final scene. The huge mass of ships in the end has interesting political discussions possible around it but I'm not sure I'd count that as worldbuilding.

Does the "world" or "galaxy" make sense as a whole? Do you feel like it's plausible to believe the story-universe can accommodate a plausible scenario where Palpatine didn't truly die and managed to build a secret fleet out of nowhere?

That was my big issue with old EU Dark Empire series, and I disliked it as a whole because it feels like bad world-building.

[Sidewinder]

They could have fixed the "Rey is a Skywalker" bit by having Darth Sidious dump exposition on how he assisted Darth Plagueis in the latter's plan to fulfill the "Skywalker Prophecy" the ancient Sith foresaw, i.e., Anakin Skywalker and Rey were both products of a Sith project to produce... something... maybe Force sensitive vessels a Sith Master may transfer his/her essence into, allowing him/her to conquer death the way Sidious himself did.

[Ace Pace]

The exposition dump being where Rey comes from or the Sith world? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Basically all of it. How are they handled, whether it feels like an info-dump in one go, or if it's carefully disseminated in an organic-feeling way?

Mostly well. There weren't long bits of explaining too many things at once. Reys parentage was revealed properly, over time. But there wasn't a lot of exposition, which is good. At some point, Poe quips "we could do this all day" when characters start asking background questions.

The world building elements are interesting. There's basically a lot of throwbacks but to ignore those and just pick out the important ones.

Poe having a shifty background. This is interesting, he's not a great pilot because he's just amazing and in love with the Resistance, but because he came from the underworld and picked this path and committed to it. In a way, a cleaner Han Solo. I enjoyed it and wish it had more time on screen.

Haxx being a spy was wonderful. It showed First Order characters as being independent and having their own arc. His reasons for being a spy were amazing and very..realistic. "I want to see Kylo lose," is a very realistic motivator for a spy. Shame he got executed.

I'm not sure what other interesting world building happened. The Knights of Ren were discarded as quickly as they were introduced and it's not clear who were all those people in the Sith Chamber in the final scene. The huge mass of ships in the end has interesting political discussions possible around it but I'm not sure I'd count that as worldbuilding.

Does the "world" or "galaxy" make sense as a whole? Do you feel like it's plausible to believe the story-universe can accommodate a plausible scenario where Palpatine didn't truly die and managed to build a secret fleet out of nowhere?

That was my big issue with old EU Dark Empire series, and I disliked it as a whole because it feels like bad world-building.

On Palpatine being alive? Yes. Giant fleet? Hand waved away.

Honestly, the entire fleet story doesn't really matter. Unlike ROTJ, the fleet battle could have been wiped out and very little would have changed in the story.

Making this yet another SW movie that doesn't match up to ROTJ space battle.

[Ace Pace]

I feel like I have to add, I totally understand what every critical review of this movie says. There's fan service, there's retconning of TLJ, and more bad things.

However, it was a movie that felt like the Star Wars 4 and 6 (no surprise there) and had me enjoying nearly every minute.

[ray245]

Mostly well. There weren't long bits of explaining too many things at once. Reys parentage was revealed properly, over time. But there wasn't a lot of exposition, which is good. At some point, Poe quips "we could do this all day" when characters start asking background questions.

Fair enough. It seems the exposition dump is one thing that many critics hated about the movie. It might work for some people, but also not work for others.

Honestly, the entire fleet story doesn't really matter. Unlike ROTJ, the fleet battle could have been wiped out and very little would have changed in the story.

Making this yet another SW movie that doesn't match up to ROTJ space battle.

There goes what little I have in this movie. I dislike Abrams for always having a cop-out in giving us big fleet battles in his Star Trek and Star wars movies. Seems like this will be a movie that will bore me to death when I watch it.

I feel like I have to add, I totally understand what every critical review of this movie says. There's fan service, there's retconning of TLJ, and more bad things.

However, it was a movie that felt like the Star Wars 4 and 6 (no surprise there) and had me enjoying nearly every minute.

That's an opinion I can respect, but I don't think it is one that I can agree with. I hate retreads in principle and in actuality. If I want Ep 4 and 6, I can watch them without watching 7 and 9.

[Vympel]

I was really hyped for this movie until the reactions started rolling in.I knew it wouldn't ever be as good as TLJ but I didn't think it would be outright cowardly and instead appear to (whether it did for real or not is unknown, just lots of critics claiming it feels that way) respond to people who hated TLJ in the most craven way possible by trying to undo it's work and vomiting out excessive pandering in its place. But by multiple accounts that's exactly what it did, to excess.

Leading up to this I did a full Episode I - VIII rewatch (excluding Rogue One and Solo - not part of the saga). I didn't get any revelations, just a continued appreciation for everything I like about the movies, but goddamn I don't understand how Abrams could turn in something as simple yet effective as TFA and then turn in what sounds like a huge mess four years later.

I'll be watching this in a bout 6 hours. See if I'm as down on it as everyone else seems to be.

[Adam Reynolds]

Leading up to this I did a full Episode I - VIII rewatch (excluding Rogue One and Solo - not part of the saga). I didn't get any revelations, just a continued appreciation for everything I like about the movies, but goddamn I don't understand how Abrams could turn in something as simple yet effective as TFA and then turn in what sounds like a huge mess four years later.

It's simple, Abrams is the king of Ponzi storytelling. He is very good at setting up stories with interesting questions, he just has no idea how to answer them in a way that works. What made The Force Awakens so effective was that there were virtually no conclusive answers to anything, which meant that you could easily come up with your own ideas to justify whatever you wanted about the state of the galaxy, or questions like Rey's origins, or whatever else the movie itself failed to answer.

[Mange]

*CONTAINS SPOILERS*

Watched TROS yesterday. While my opinion is that the ST hasbeen made by people who don't understand what made Star Wars great (Abrams is an emulator and Johnson is just clueless), I liked it more than I thought I would. It's a fun movie (though the audience laughed at two scenes, one at the end, they weren't supposed to). It's also a beautiful movie though the locations are boring and uninspiring (and someone must've missed the Emperor's Tower on DSII as the throne room is located just above the superlaser by the look of it and opens up to a regular DSII corridor full of Stormtrooper remains).

Bringing Palpatine, who looks almost exactly like the Seer from the show "Vikings" down to the lips, back
was an insult to Lucas and shows Abrams's lack of creativity. While it was fun to hear McDiarmid cackling pretty much the same lines from ROTJ, the "new" Sith lore is incompatible with ROTS and ROTJ and pretty much everything else. Palpatine possesses the spirits of every Sith that came before (hey, Darth Plagueis, don't bother) and wants his granddaughter Rey to kill him so that she can become Empress and posess his and the other Sith spirits. Huh? Equally bad is that Rey is struggling hard to hear every Jedi before her. Huh? Qui-Gon was the first to return from the Netherworld and besides Luke communing and talking to Obi-Wan, that had never been a point before.

And Exegol... Why have we never heard of this ancient Sith planet, which is filled to the brim with Sith cheerleaders (who are all these people?), Snokes in tanks and a chimpanzee technician, before?

It was nice to see Ford in the movie, but what about Ben's grandfather? Well, he's heard cheering Rey on, but a talk with Ben had been fitting.

C-3PO has much screentime and is about as annoying or fun he was in TESB.

And Abrams seems to have OCD or something when it comes to dialogue. He lifted the "Check this side of the street! The door is locked, move along to the next one." from Star Wars.

Some nice cameos. I was glad to see John Williams in a small cameo. Denis Lawson appears in a brief shot in a Falcon turret, calling somethingvto Lando.

The final battle was stupid. The ragtag fleet of "people" must destroy a beacon needed for the Final(!) Order fleet to rise from Exegol's atmosphere... Yeah, don't ask. And the ragtag fleet apparently manages to destroy every single ISD equipped with superlasers. And the celebratory scene... Cloud City, the forest moon of Endor (complete with Wicket) and Jakku... What?

And the end with Rey on Tatooine... I could only roll my eyes at that scene.

Overall, I give it 2 out of 5.

but goddamn I don't understand how Abrams could turn in something as simple yet effective as TFA and then turn in what sounds like a huge mess four years later.

The mess was done by Rian Johnson and his god-awful The Last Jedi. Abrams, who isn't a great storyteller himself, had to do damage control which slowed TROS down a bit. Not having a sense of where to go also did damage with Colin Trevorrow saying that he had no intention of bringing Palpatine back but that it was a late decision by Abrams. The OT had Lucas's creative vision. The ST was storytelling by people without creativity and understanding and by committee and suits.

[Ace Pace]

Also, as the last ride of John Williams in Star Wars, he delivered an interesting mixtape of all his greatest hits. I felt very little new music but a lot of good combinations and mixes.

[Danny Bhoy]

I feel like I have to add, I totally understand what every critical review of this movie says. There's fan service, there's retconning of TLJ, and more bad things.

However, it was a movie that felt like the Star Wars 4 and 6 (no surprise there) and had me enjoying nearly every minute.

I tend to agree with your earlier impressions and that it was not quite as bad as I feared or the more apocalyptic reviews or predictions. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it felt like OT or that I enjoyed it. It wasn't bad by prequel/sequal standards, IMO coming behind only to ROTS. Flawed it certainly was, with way too much apparent homages to the OT and the apparent stark reminders of Dark Empire, amongst others, not to mention alot of throwaway/unnecesssary elements. But it more or less satisfactorily tied up the saga along the ROTJ lines of redemption (for both the Skywalker and Palpatine lineages, in a way for the latter) and the end of the Skywalker bloodline was fitting like you pointed out with the end of the saga.

These were my initial impressions after just watching it today, with a bad flu in a near empty cinema hall.

I will say this though since this is *Star Wars*. It's a pity that after 6 prequal/sequal episodes, there have been no space combat scenes that rival Endor much less surpass it. It's incredible that a 1983 production is still the standard for me that all space battles are measured against. Only ROTS Coruscant in fleeting moments comes close I think. In fact, the best post-OT space battle in the GFFA for me was Rogue One Scarif.

[ray245]

It's simple, Abrams is the king of Ponzi storytelling. He is very good at setting up stories with interesting questions, he just has no idea how to answer them in a way that works. What made The Force Awakens so effective was that there were virtually no conclusive answers to anything, which meant that you could easily come up with your own ideas to justify whatever you wanted about the state of the galaxy, or questions like Rey's origins, or whatever else the movie itself failed to answer.

I hope those people that are so easily conned by JJ Abrams will learn to avoid falling for cheap filmmaking tricks and stop allowing bad directors to get big jobs once again.

A director that do not care about world-building should not be in charge of a franchises film.

[Lord Revan]

I took the "posseses the spirit of the Sith/Jedi" as more metaphorical (as in they posses the legacy and power) then literally having said spirits in them. Personally I enjoyed it well it enough, granted based on the predictions I was expecting something that would make rest of sequel trilogy seem like a modern master peices.

And honestly while she wasn't a main character to me it didn't seem like Rose was intentionally shoved aside either she filled a role meant for in the movie and it was an important(ish) role.

[Vympel]

The mess was done by Rian Johnson and his god-awful The Last Jedi. Abrams, who isn't a great storyteller himself, had to do damage control which slowed TROS down a bit. Not having a sense of where to go also did damage with Colin Trevorrow saying that he had no intention of bringing Palpatine back but that it was a late decision by Abrams. The OT had Lucas's creative vision. The ST was storytelling by people without creativity and understanding and by committee and suits.

Literally nothing that's wrong with this film has anything to do with TLJ. It's bad because the script is bad, and that's Abrams responsbility in its entirety. It's hilarious how much braver and more skilled Rian Johnson is at writing a Star Wars movie that isn't just utterly undermined by complete cowardice and fan-service desperation. TLJ's reputation will only continue to grow after this, and the yawning chasm in critical reception between the two is completely justified.

Anyway, review time:

What a desperate film. So desperate to be liked. So eager to please. So afraid to offend. There's a lot of stuff here that could've worked so much better if packaged in a better movie. But goddamn is it almost entirely cowardly. So much unnecessary fan servicing.

That opening act. I felt like I was watching National Treasure. This shit doesn't belong in any movie, let alone a Star Wars movie. There's a thing! And it's here! But its not here, but this thing that tell us where it is, is! But we can't use it! So we need to go here!

It's all text. There's no subtext. Everything is explained, seemingly right through the screen. Nothing is left to inference or imagination. Except, you know, how Palpatine returned. Whatever, I could give a shit how, the explanation is never as cool as you think it's going to be.

Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley's chemistry once more holds the movie together and they provide all the best scenes. But the movie is so damn rushed, with so much stuffed in there for seemingly no good effect, that the stuff that I really wanted just isn't there.

Things I liked:

The Force bond. One of the best things about TLJ, and it was organically expanded upon and paid off in an awesome way. Well done.

I loved Rey and the sandworm.

The stuff with Palpatine on Exogol was gonzo-bannanas. It could've worked better, in a better film. The imagery was cool.

Snoke clones was surprisingly cool. And I hate the idea of Force clones generally.

Allegiant General Pryde was fun whenever he appeared.

The Kylo Ren / First Order generals scene was good.

The lightsaber duel on the DS2 wreckage was awesome. Just really good.

I loved Ben coming back to the light with what happened with Leia and seeing Han again. It was great! I loved Ben fighting with Anakin's lightsaber, acting not like a dark warrior but like a Solo. If only I had gotten more of that.

Ben and Rey kiss Fuck yes. You had some balls and you went for a big romantic moment that made the tension between Rey and Ben in TLJ explicit, and did it in a way that wasn't at all Ben getting redeemed because he wants to get in Rey's pants. Congratulations on doing one thing that wasn't completely cowardly and will actually be controversial given how people think it's got something to say about "abuse"

The Luke/Leia flashback was pretty good, even if it was in service to something I didn't really like. (See below)

Hux was somehow awesome and he's barely in the film. How'd that happen?

The reveal about Palapatine influencing Ben

Kylo Ren not just being a slave to Palpatine but acting against him

C-3P0! He was really good in this!

Things I didn't like:

- The pacing is bad. Seriously, slow donw.

-Rey Palpatine. It's dumb. What the hell does Palpatine mean to her? Nothing. It changes nothing significant about her character. She had no connection to him, and it's entirely a bad decision organic to this film. Unless you actually believe bringing back Palpatine was always the plan, in which case I have some swampland in Florida to sell you. And the implications if you're one of those fans who cares about dynasty (I don't, personally). Rey taking the Skywalker name is good when she's just a girl from Jakku. It's creepy when she's actually a Palpatine.

- I hated everything on Ach'To. It was just terrible from beginning to end. It was an almost cartoonish grovelling apology to the fans offended by Luke's characterisation at the start of TLJ (you know, which TLJ showed as bad and built up from over the course of the film!). Not a single thing about it was good. Luke looked like Jeff Bridges somehow - worse and less dignified than how he looked in TLJ on both the island and Crait. What the hell did they do to him? And the bizarre, out of nowhere and completely unnecessary "oh yeah I totally knew you were a Palpatine".

And the silliest - just the blatant retcon of Luke's X-Wing. That thing's wing was literally the door to Luke's hut, and they just yank it out of the water and pretend like that never happened. It's totally fine. Luke's X-Wing was in Dagobah's waters for like days and required repair work from Luke and R2-D2, but this thing was in seawater for years and it runs just fine with no maintenance.

It's so, damn, stupid. Like, why didn't Luke intervene the moment she tried to burn Kylo Ren's fighter? So the film could blatantly pander instead. Awful.

I remember when TLJ came out someone mused that maybe Episode IX would ostentatiously try and apologise for TLJ and I thought - like a true boo-boo the clown - that no, of course no one would be that craven. Joke's on me, lol!

- So yeah that space battle was a big fat meh. Even TLJ's suicidal bombing run kicked the shit out of that.

- What was that Dennis Lawson cameo? A two-second walk-on? Pandering. Get in the trash

- What was Lando in this movie for? What a waste of time. Pandering. Get in the trash

- What is Dominic Monaghan, Naomie Ackie and Keri Russell in this movie for?

- Nice one sidelining Kelly Marie Tran that way. Really subtle. So now Finn has no love interest and just some weird, perfunctory scene with Naomie Ackie that goes nowhere. And whatever that weird stuff with Rey was meant to be that never got paid off.

- What the hell was that sci-fi nonsense in the space battle? "Their shields won't work in the atmosphere" yeah since when?

- The cavalry charge along the Finalizer (presumably) hull would've been great if it had been given any room to breathe and feel earned. However, minor positive points for referring to speeder jamming.

- Palpatine is such an idiot. Here's an idea - if your lightning ain't working maybe stop that and try something else?

- And I'm gonna save the final one for last - because it really is emblematic of the entire problem with the way JJ Abrams and Terrio wrote this movie. Why is Rey on Tatooine at the end? Why would you bury the Skywalker sabers there? It means nothing to her. It only means something to the audience. And that's the way this movie has been made. Constantly winking at the audience, desperate to be liked, virtually never stopping to ask if it's organic to its characters.

That's all I've got to say right now. It's a deeply, deeply frustrating movie. Such a disappointment. I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later. It could've been so much better. I'll be doing a rewatch soon. Cos the movie's a lot. Not going to try ranking it right now or anything as its simply too early.

[ray245]

What a desperate film. So desperate to be liked. So eager to please. So afraid to offend. There's a lot of stuff here that could've worked so much better if packaged in a better movie. But goddamn is it almost entirely cowardly. So much unnecessary fan servicing.

Fanboys are cowards. They do not want to be challenged and called out for all their faults as audience of a story, because they want a franchise that allows them to relive their childhood at all cost. A good producer should know better than to hire a fanboy to be a director of a Star Wars movie. It's not surprising that the person who Disney turned out to fix their off-shoot SW movies are NOT fanboys of the original Star Wars.

The people best placed to direct a Star Wars movie are people who might enjoy the original Star Wars movie, but those who aren't fanboys to the extend they lose their ability to be creative and competent at making a good film.

Disney right from the get-go, has been a bunch of creative cowards when it comes to Star Wars. You keep saying a big time studio won't be stupid enough to listen to a bunch of fans whinning on the Internet. ROS proved you wrong, because that's exactly what Disney is as a studio. They are so eager to please the rabid Internet fans that they will burn their own trilogy to the ground.

The vast majority of my criticism of the way Disney/Kennedy/Abrams handled Star Wars back in 2014/5 have been proved right. I said good directing of actors and well-written dialogue will not be enough to be a good Star Wars movies. You need a clear vision, be willing to take risk that might piss off the fanbase, an ability to do good world-building to do a good Star Wars movie.

If ROS isn't a Star Wars branded movie, it would have bombed at the box office very easily.

[Vympel]

Fanboys are cowards. They do not want to be challenged and called out for all their faults as audience of a story, because they want a franchise that allows them to relive their childhood at all cost. A good producer should know better than to hire a fanboy to be a director of a Star Wars movie. It's not surprising that the person who Disney turned out to fix their off-shoot SW movies are NOT fanboys of the original Star Wars.

The people best placed to direct a Star Wars movie are people who might enjoy the original Star Wars movie, but those who aren't fanboys to the extend they lose their ability to be creative and competent at making a good film.

Disney right from the get-go, has been a bunch of creative cowards when it comes to Star Wars. You keep saying a big time studio won't be stupid enough to listen to a bunch of fans whinning on the Internet. ROS proved you wrong, because that's exactly what Disney is as a studio. They are so eager to please the rabid Internet fans that they will burn their own trilogy to the ground.

The vast majority of my criticism of the way Disney/Kennedy/Abrams handled Star Wars back in 2014/5 have been proved right. I said good directing of actors and well-written dialogue will not be enough to be a good Star Wars movies. You need a clear vision, be willing to take risk that might piss off the fanbase, an ability to do good world-building to do a good Star Wars movie.

If ROS isn't a Star Wars branded movie, it would have bombed at the box office very easily.

Well like I said, boo-boo the clown on the whining on the internet. But it's not those fans fault, its the dumbasses who wrote the movie so it seemed that way. I don't agree that TFA isn't a good Star Wars movie - I still like it a lot and it had a lot of story-telling potential. It's not TFA's problem that TROS is bad - instead its apparent that all of TFA's good ideas came from Kasdan and not Abrams, who when left to his own devices turns in ... this mess.

[ray245]

Well like I said, boo-boo the clown on the whining on the internet. But it's not those fans fault, its the dumbasses who wrote the movie so it seemed that way.

It's the fans fault (because they can't critique a movie for shit) and the cowards who think that listening to those idiots is a good idea. Whatever the faults and the weakness the prequels had, Lucas did not make the movies to please the fanbase. I respect directors who dared to do something different from what the fanbase wanted over a director who aims to give in to every single fanboys on the internet. This is why despite my issues with TLJ, I think Rian Johnson is a much better director than JJ Abrams, and respect him more so than anything else.

I've seen Rian Johnson's knives out, and it shows why he is a superior director to JJ Abrams easily.

I don't agree that TFA isn't a good Star Wars movie - I still like it a lot and it had a lot of story-telling potential. It's not TFA's problem that TROS is bad - instead its apparent that all of TFA's good ideas came from Kasdan and not Abrams, who when left to his own devices turns in ... this mess.

TFA superficially appears to be a good Star Wars movie, and that's the main problem with it. With the set-up of TFA, you're essentially stuck remaking ESB and ROTJ unless you want to drastically deviate course from it ( which was what Rian Johnson tried to do).

TFA is why TLJ had such a mixed reception, because it is difficult to make a good challenge to the traditional SW status quo in the middle film of a trilogy. You had to spent a good portion of your time resolving the cliff-hanger of TFA (Luke's story had to be dealt with) and you're limited by the set-up (Empire vs Rebels again!).

Kasdan is not as good of a writer in creating an interesting long-term story-telling as people might think.

I think the reason why people think TFA is good when it first came out has less to do with the actual quality of a film, but the set of emotions that people brought with them walking into the cinema. There are many people so desperate to be proven right over why the prequels suck, why a return to the OT will magically fix everything that they essentially ignored the deeper underlying problems with TFA.

Palpatine is brought back because JJ Abrams is a shit writer that literally couldn't see past Star Wars beyond a plucky underdog vs an empire sith lord wizard. Rian Johnson killed off Snoke because he realised how important it is to move the narrative of Star Wars beyond having yet another evil Sith emperor for the heroes to fight. He understood Star Wars as a franchise needs to evolve or it will die in the long run due to creative stagnation.

JJ Abrams is utterly incapable of creativity. That's why he's so reliant on his mystery box, because it's a good way to distract his audience from his weakness as a story-teller. He never cared about story-telling, all he cared about is making a bunch of cool-looking scene, and edit his movie to move at such a fast pace that you will not question the issues with his story-telling. It's now bloody clear that Abrams never had a long-term plan beyond remake the OT!

Does bringing Palpatine back make sense within the narrative of all 9 movies? Who cares! It will hype up the audience because the trailers will generate tons of views! Does bringing back the issue of Rey's parentage adds anything to the movie? Who cares! Because it will generate excitement amongst the fanbase once again!

JJ Abrams does not understand story-telling, period. The fact that he approved of the script written by Terrio is a clear sign he is a horrible judge of good storytelling and good script. I highly doubt he understood why people liked the OT to begin with. Remaking ROTJ is another clear sign he does not understand Star Wars to begin with.


Let this be a lesson of what happens when movie studios are too cowardly to do anything creative and tries to appease every single fanbase. It does not work.

Rant over.



P.S. I do find it hilarious that JJ Abrams also gave in to those how complaint about Rey being a Mary-Sue by essentially giving them an explanation they sort of wanted. Of course she is so powerful because she is the grand-daughter of Palpatine!

[Vympel]

Well like I said, boo-boo the clown on the whining on the internet. But it's not those fans fault, its the dumbasses who wrote the movie so it seemed that way.

It's the fans fault (because they can't critique a movie for shit) and the cowards who think that listening to those idiots is a good idea. Whatever the faults and the weakness the prequels had, Lucas did not make the movies to please the fanbase. I respect directors who dared to do something different from what the fanbase wanted over a director who aims to give in to every single fanboys on the internet. This is why despite my issues with TLJ, I think Rian Johnson is a much better director than JJ Abrams, and respect him more so than anything else.

I've seen Rian Johnson's knives out, and it shows why he is a superior director to JJ Abrams easily.

I don't agree that TFA isn't a good Star Wars movie - I still like it a lot and it had a lot of story-telling potential. It's not TFA's problem that TROS is bad - instead its apparent that all of TFA's good ideas came from Kasdan and not Abrams, who when left to his own devices turns in ... this mess.

TFA superficially appears to be a good Star Wars movie, and that's the main problem with it. With the set-up of TFA, you're essentially stuck remaking ESB and ROTJ unless you want to drastically deviate course from it ( which was what Rian Johnson tried to do).

TFA is why TLJ had such a mixed reception, because it is difficult to make a good challenge to the traditional SW status quo in the middle film of a trilogy. You had to spent a good portion of your time resolving the cliff-hanger of TFA (Luke's story had to be dealt with) and you're limited by the set-up (Empire vs Rebels again!).

Kasdan is not as good of a writer in creating an interesting long-term story-telling as people might think.

I think the reason why people think TFA is good when it first came out has less to do with the actual quality of a film, but the set of emotions that people brought with them walking into the cinema. There are many people so desperate to be proven right over why the prequels suck, why a return to the OT will magically fix everything that they essentially ignored the deeper underlying problems with TFA.

Palpatine is brought back because JJ Abrams is a shit writer that literally couldn't see past Star Wars beyond a plucky underdog vs an empire sith lord wizard. Rian Johnson killed off Snoke because he realised how important it is to move the narrative of Star Wars beyond having yet another evil Sith emperor for the heroes to fight. He understood Star Wars as a franchise needs to evolve or it will die in the long run due to creative stagnation.

JJ Abrams is utterly incapable of creativity. That's why he's so reliant on his mystery box, because it's a good way to distract his audience from his weakness as a story-teller. He never cared about story-telling, all he cared about is making a bunch of cool-looking scene, and edit his movie to move at such a fast pace that you will not question the issues with his story-telling. It's now bloody clear that Abrams never had a long-term plan beyond remake the OT!

Does bringing Palpatine back make sense within the narrative of all 9 movies? Who cares! It will hype up the audience because the trailers will generate tons of views! Does bringing back the issue of Rey's parentage adds anything to the movie? Who cares! Because it will generate excitement amongst the fanbase once again!

JJ Abrams does not understand story-telling, period. The fact that he approved of the script written by Terrio is a clear sign he is a horrible judge of good storytelling and good script. I highly doubt he understood why people liked the OT to begin with. Remaking ROTJ is another clear sign he does not understand Star Wars to begin with.

Let this be a lesson of what happens when movie studios are too cowardly to do anything creative and tries to appease every single fanbase. It does not work.

Rant over.

P.S. I do find it hilarious that JJ Abrams also gave in to those how complaint about Rey being a Mary-Sue by essentially giving them an explanation they sort of wanted. Of course she is so powerful because she is the grand-daughter of Palpatine!

Yeah, as I've said many times, TLJ is a movie that even if you hate it - is a movie entirely uninterested in fan service, which TFA clearly had (but not nearly as obnoxious as in TROS).

One of the criticisms deployed against Johnson was an interview in 2003 where he talked about wanting to make controversial movies that 50% of people hated. His response to when he was asked about it, back in 2018:

"I’m not saying that I want to purposefully make people hate something I’ve done, or divide audiences. I’m saying that any art that’s worth a damn comes from a personal, passionate perspective. And that means that you will never get 100% of an audience on board with it."

And just last week, in an interview:

"“I think approaching any creative process with [making fandoms happy] would be a mistake that would lead to probably the exact opposite result,” Johnson told Radio.com. “Even my experience as a fan, you know if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like ‘oh, ok,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me.”

The goal Johnson wants instead, from the perspective of both a creator and as an audience member, is to find his theories and beliefs about a piece of media to be confronted as much as they are affirmed.

“I want to be shocked, I want to be surprised, I want to be thrown off-guard, I want to have things recontextualized, I want to be challenged as a fan when I sit down in the theatre,” the director continued. “What I’m aiming for every time I sit down in a theatre is to have the experience with Empire Strikes Back, something that’s emotionally resonant and feels like it connects up and makes sense and really gets to the heart of what this thing is, and in a way that I never could have seen coming.”"

Who does that sound like?

[ray245]

Yeah, as I've said many times, TLJ is a movie that even if you hate it - is a movie entirely uninterested in fan service, which TFA clearly had (but not nearly as obnoxious as in TROS).

One of the criticisms deployed against Johnson was an interview in 2003 where he talked about wanting to make controversial movies that 50% of people hated. His response to when he was asked about it, back in 2018:

"I’m not saying that I want to purposefully make people hate something I’ve done, or divide audiences. I’m saying that any art that’s worth a damn comes from a personal, passionate perspective. And that means that you will never get 100% of an audience on board with it."

And just last week, in an interview:

"“I think approaching any creative process with [making fandoms happy] would be a mistake that would lead to probably the exact opposite result,” Johnson told Radio.com. “Even my experience as a fan, you know if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like ‘oh, ok,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me.”

The goal Johnson wants instead, from the perspective of both a creator and as an audience member, is to find his theories and beliefs about a piece of media to be confronted as much as they are affirmed.

“I want to be shocked, I want to be surprised, I want to be thrown off-guard, I want to have things recontextualized, I want to be challenged as a fan when I sit down in the theatre,” the director continued. “What I’m aiming for every time I sit down in a theatre is to have the experience with Empire Strikes Back, something that’s emotionally resonant and feels like it connects up and makes sense and really gets to the heart of what this thing is, and in a way that I never could have seen coming.”"

Who does that sound like?

This is why I will defend the prequels even if they are flawed, because Lucas was trying to do something different with the prequels from what he did with the OT. Yes, there are many problems with the directing and the writing, but many of the fans had issues with the prequels because it gave them shiny new planets, no more plucky underdog vs big evil empire storylines.

[Gandalf]

I quite enjoyed it. What better way to end a trilogy of films about people who are fans of the OT than to have the whole story's climax be about invoking so much of the OT?

It's like Avengers: Endgame in that regard. Nowhere near as good as Last Jedi, but it's doing a different thing.

[Wien1938]

Interesting posts from everyone, especially Vympel and ray245.

I was really disappointed by Rise of Skywalker and the more I think about the problems with the film the more thematic problems come out of the woodwork.

I'll have to sit down this week and work out a proper review.

[ray245]

Just came out of the movie. It's hilariously bad. My friends and I were laughing at all the wrong moments because it's that hilariously badly made.

I mean it's entertaining, in a "The Room" kind of way.