StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2019-12-20 04:40am The later is from a reddit forum. It's interesting in that it IS critical of the new movies but tries to avoid being the racist sexist circle jerks a lot of critiques are (and they do at least avoid that for the most part

It’s not just that Rise of Skywalker undoes Last Jedi’s “it’s not your franchise anymore” metaphors—aimed at a generation that grew up loving Star Wars and then allowed two Palpatine-ish leaders (George W. Bush and Trump) to come into power—for generic “don’t worry, Star Wars is still the best!” fan bait.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-20 10:22am The reddit post misses an opportunity to put the authoritarianism of Star Wars into a wider context.

The Old Republic was similarly none too militaristic until someone went and ordered a super obedient army of slaves in cool toys without their knowledge. In the PT, democracy is nice but wildly impractical it seems. Also, instead of the tragic heroism of the clones, where we as an audience know that it's only a matter of time before they kill our heroic Jedi. At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl. It's wonderful.

Then Clone Wars comes along and does biochips, among other things. So while they do horrible things, they've little accountability. It's somewhat reflective of America's divides over issues like Vietnam and the War on Terror, which makes sense. I wonder how many Imperial citizens didn't support Palpatine, but "supported the troops?"

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2019-12-20 01:41pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-20 10:22am The reddit post misses an opportunity to put the authoritarianism of Star Wars into a wider context.

The Old Republic was similarly none too militaristic until someone went and ordered a super obedient army of slaves in cool toys without their knowledge. In the PT, democracy is nice but wildly impractical it seems. Also, instead of the tragic heroism of the clones, where we as an audience know that it's only a matter of time before they kill our heroic Jedi. At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl. It's wonderful.

Then Clone Wars comes along and does biochips, among other things. So while they do horrible things, they've little accountability. It's somewhat reflective of America's divides over issues like Vietnam and the War on Terror, which makes sense. I wonder how many Imperial citizens didn't support Palpatine, but "supported the troops?"

The bio chips worked. In an army of god knows how many clones you’d need them not to give it away and it becomes harder to maintain a conspiracy with that many.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-20 10:22am At the end of AOTC, hints of the Imperial March play as we see them line up like something out of Riefenstahl.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2019-12-20 01:41pm The bio chips worked. In an army of god knows how many clones you’d need them not to give it away and it becomes harder to maintain a conspiracy with that many.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-21 07:24am Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-21 08:07am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-21 07:24am Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Knife wrote: ↑2019-12-21 10:32am

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-21 08:07am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-21 07:24am Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Usually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-21 08:07am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-21 07:24am Order 66 makes sense in that camaraderie among soldiers is a thing, and the Clone troopers, even in the films, were friends with the Jedi and the flipping of a switch to kill your brother in arms is something that would be very odd to explain.

Soldiers can do terrible things when following orders.

Also, to quote Lama Su:

You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-22 11:17amThe clones are still humans, with less independence. That's still having a level of independence, just not Jengo Fett: "bounty hunter extraordinaire" outlaw independent. Which would be utterly horrible to have in an army of clones, as every single one acting like they know better, deserting their post and doing whatever the hell they wanted would make them a terrible army for the buyer.

This is why clones in the Clone Wars are better than droids, as they have more latitude and capability to making decisions. They aren't walking machines who obey while blinking blankly whenever told to pick up a stick and fetching it or to jump off a cliff. Then just standing awkwardly once their tasks are done. This is why a bio chip makes more sense for them to be killing off the Jedi, as they're millions of Trojan horses, waiting to be activated, subverting what the Jedi bud by giving them more humanity and independence over the years.

And as others have pointed out, soldiers doing things to the enemy is one thing, soldiers blindly storming their own base and wiping out their fellow soldiers is very different.

Knife wrote: ↑2019-12-21 10:32amUsually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-23 08:36am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-12-22 11:17amThe clones are still humans, with less independence. That's still having a level of independence, just not Jengo Fett: "bounty hunter extraordinaire" outlaw independent. Which would be utterly horrible to have in an army of clones, as every single one acting like they know better, deserting their post and doing whatever the hell they wanted would make them a terrible army for the buyer.

This is why clones in the Clone Wars are better than droids, as they have more latitude and capability to making decisions. They aren't walking machines who obey while blinking blankly whenever told to pick up a stick and fetching it or to jump off a cliff. Then just standing awkwardly once their tasks are done. This is why a bio chip makes more sense for them to be killing off the Jedi, as they're millions of Trojan horses, waiting to be activated, subverting what the Jedi bud by giving them more humanity and independence over the years.

Lots of soldiers in various conflicts were able to make decisions on the ground too. Then when asked, they torched villages, and worse. IIRC the novelisation of ROTS has Obi-Wan's pet clone commander annoyed that he gave Obi-Wan his lightsabre back a few minutes earlier.

And as others have pointed out, soldiers doing things to the enemy is one thing, soldiers blindly storming their own base and wiping out their fellow soldiers is very different.

And if Jedi are redefined to be said enemy? My rough mental parallel is Operation Valkyrie, where Order 66 means "Jedi coup in progress."

Darth Yan wrote:I have mixed feelings on the trilogy but this particular idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzPAmm6L1g is a new one (basically arguing that the movies are actually rather sexist and racist). Warning it's a long ass video

video at 0:44 wrote:Then after more verbal abuse she develops feelings for her first rapist.
You know the man with the phallic shaped lightsaber that has a red vein running down the side that slowly rises to point at her while she's on her knees in front of him.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-23 08:37am

Knife wrote: ↑2019-12-21 10:32amUsually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Don't the clones have nearly a decade of training to be super obedient soldiers?

Knife wrote: ↑2019-12-24 08:49am

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-12-23 08:37am

Knife wrote: ↑2019-12-21 10:32amUsually after trauma and after dehumanizing their enemies. Not their team mates.

Don't the clones have nearly a decade of training to be super obedient soldiers?

Part of that is a sense of brotherhood. In the series Clone Wars, they refer to each other as brother. Brothers squabble and fight but don't turn on each other and murder each other like psychotics.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-12-20 10:37am I think I've said it before but my favourite template for TLJ would have been to literally make Alexander Nevsky in space. The real history isn't too important but in the classic (Soviet Propaganda for those who care) movie the plot is essentially that the people of the Republic of Novgorod call the film's hero out of retirement when the Teutonic Order massacre the population of the city of Pskov, and he has to rally the people of Novgorod to stand the crusader knights.

It's also a major influence on The Empire Strikes Back, with the main battle from the end of the movie the admitted inspiration for the Empire Strikes Back, though of course in that movie the good guys win.

That's literally all that Episode VIII needed to be. With Luke in the role of Nevsky in part, and passing that mantle on to Rey.

But most relevantly there's a scene in the movie where various people are shouting out in the assembly that their guild will produce a thousand lances, five hundred shields or so on for the Republic to avenge Pskov. That is what I want, not 'No one is coming to our rescue from our outer rim allies, no one will dare stand against the First Order.'

Just strike out Pskov and write in Hosnian change lances for fighter squadrons and shields for destroyers and guilds for sectors and the whole thing works as a rebuttal to the lackadaisical irrelevance of the New Republic in Ep. 7.

Between VII showing the New Republic as fools completely unprepared for battle, which I think is just poor worldbuilding, and VIII's deliberate pedaling of the 'Don't Join' message that resistance against fascism is futile the sequels have been thoroughly depressing thus far. I hope IX will at least make the Resistance into a real movement.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-12-25 05:56am
That wouldn't have been a bad movie, but it would have been a safer, more conventional one, and I'm not at all sure that that is inherently better.

And the last point, at least, I strongly dispute- the idea that TLJ was pushing the idea that one shouldn't resist fascism because fascism is futile. The film addresses those ideas, the sense of apathy and despair and "both sides" cynicism in much of modern society, and rightly so, because those issues are a very real part of the world we live in. But addressing something, acknowledging it, is not the same as endorsing it. The entire point of the film's conclusion, with Luke coming out of retirement, however briefly, is that resistance is not pointless. Hell, that's the entire point of the "pointless" character of Rose, and the "pointless" Canto Bight arc. Same with Finn's "rebel scum" line- he starts the film as someone who doesn't care about the cause, and over the course of the film, through his interactions with Rose (who very much does care about the cause), he comes to be a believer himself. But of course that doesn't stop all the fanboys from fapping over how "pointless" Rose and the Canto Bight scenes were. Likewise, when it comes to the topic of resistance and its futility, or lack thereof, the ultimate reveal is ignored, and the initial misdirect is treated as the final fact, just as with Holdo and Poe's conflict.

No, its not that there was no point to the Canto Bight scenes, or that Holdo was a coward and a traitor and Poe was right, or that the New Republic is useless, or that the message of the film is that there's no point fighting fascism and you shouldn't try. Those are arguments the film sets up in order to knock them down. But the bashers refuse to acknowledge that. Some of this may be honest misunderstanding, but given that these points have been made again and again, I am convinced that a lot of it is simply arguing in bad faith.

It is easy to bash TLJ and Johnson when you are arguing a film that is literally the opposite, point for point, of the one that was actually made.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware those aren't all arguments you've made here, obviously. My point is to illustrate a pattern, which is that most of the criticisms of TLJ (the ones that aren't openly based on bigotry or knee-jerk hostility toward anything new) are reliant at least in part on ignoring the film's ultimate reveals and subversions, and treating the set-up (which is often a misdirect) as the final fact.