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Certain TIEs have always had hyperdrives -- Vader's TIE x1 Advanced prototype which he flew in ANH had a hyperdrive, as did the production TIE Avengers derived from the TIE Advanced Prototype, as well as the later TIE Defender.

Darth Maul's TIE precursor also had a hyperdrive as well.

Basically, the main issue for hyperdrives not being in every TIE is COST.

There were canonically 25,000 ISDs in the Imperial Navy. At a wing of 72 TIEs per ISD, thats 1.8 MILLION TIEs alone.

The Empire at it's height had about a million worlds or systems. If we assume the same distribution for government structures as in the USA:

(https://www.statista.com/statistics/241 ... tion-size/)
And we use the cut off of about 10K; then that means 15.8194% (0.158194) of all systems in the Empire are populous to at least warrant the services of a full TIE Wing.

1 million times 15.8 percent equals 158,000 Wings and 11.37 MILLION TIEs.

Now, this is a simple analysis; we'd have to figure out how many TIE Wings a top grade world like Coruscant would get (a lot more than just 1), and figure out the contribution of the Imperial Army (Army wings are only 4 squadrons) Garrisons; but it provides a lower bound.

Then there's the scores of miscellaneous TIEs on:

Space Stations (2 to 3 squadrons -- 24 to 36 TIEs)
Nebulon B Frigate (2 squadrons - 24 TIEs)

etc.

It's plausible to figure that there are at least 20~ MILLION TIEs in the Galactic Empire at it's height.

When you have that many, cost and efficiency become main drivers -- an analogous situation would be the early Vietnam stuff:

UH-1 HUEY Cost: $300,000 in 1969
Cost to add Self Sealing Tanks: $10,000 (3% of total helicopter cost)

Link

We know this because the USAF didn't lose Hueys to fuel fires since they had all of their Huey's equipped with self sealing tanks and cited that cost.

So it's easy to see how the vast majority of TIEs built are simple, rugged craft designed for local patrol duties simply because of cost.

Well, my understanding is that TIEs were built according to lightweight fighter (i.e. F-16) maxims - minimum complexity and maximum maneuverability.

At war's end, according to the old canon, the lightweight fighter mafia took over the Imperial Navy, and in conjunction with the Battleship Mafia marginalized the role of heavy fighters and carriers.

Back the Clone Wars, the TIE's immediate predecessor, the V-wing (also produced in "swarms", hyperdrive-lacking, and deployed as such), was deployed in some sort of hi-lo mix with ARC-170 heavy fighters with hyperdrives (basically a WWII torpedo bomber, with tail gunner and everything) and Z-95 Headhunters (X-wing predecessors).

This was perhaps considered more cost effective due to the higher cost of the average clone pilot when compared to the average Imperial fighter pilot recruit, resulting in an emphasis on more capability - hence a hi-lo mix.

A smaller number of heavy fighters with hyperdrives (thus greatly extending range and cutting support ship costs) would clearly have offered the Empire excellent capability against the threats faced later on (scattered piratical and criminal threats) at reasonable cost effectiveness. However, with pilot cost apparently so low, it may have become less cost-effective to field more expensive spacecraft (odd, since civilian spacecraft appear to be fairly cheap in SW, within the reach of the desperately poor grifter, if they save their pennies; military spacecraft appear much more expensive).

A clear point in favor of the cost-effectiveness (rather than purely-political) view is that droid starfighters - Tri droids (the hi-element of the hi-lo mix) and Vulture droids (the lo-part) - with zero pilot cost, all lack hyperdrives, indicating that a low pilot cost leads to an optimization away from hyperdrives.

As sensible as the costs argument is, I suspect that the Empire not wanting to make it easy for it's pilots to defect to the Rebels with (useful) hardware may have factored in. You prove your worth, prove you're loyal, then you can have a long-range fighter.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2020-05-18 01:24pm As sensible as the costs argument is, I suspect that the Empire not wanting to make it easy for it's pilots to defect to the Rebels with (useful) hardware may have factored in. You prove your worth, prove you're loyal, then you can have a long-range fighter.

A distinct possibility, but consider that the Jedi also favored lightweight fighters (doubtless due to their superb pilot skill and use of instincts in place of sensors). LWF clearly have benefits beyond cost in the SW Universe.

Obi Wan's Delta-7 and later Eta-2 epitomized the lightweight fighter ideal, with excellent-ish visibility, superb maneuverability, oversized guns, and external hyperdrive pod.

And regarding cost/benefit... the moment the Rebel Alliance got their hands on a sizeable fleet of Mon Cal carriers, they began producing A-wing lightweight fighters with, guess what, no hyperdrive. Coincidence? I think not.

Clearly, a starship-cheap-pilot-LWF is more cost effective for a conventional force than a pure startship(or none)-cheap-pilot-heavyweight fighter. A hi-lo mix was what the Rebel Alliance ended up with, since they didn't have quintillions-sextillions of people to recruit from, and pilots were thus probably pricier.

If you have lots and lots of starships which all are basically carriers - I made a mistake up there, Star Destroyers may not be optimized for carrier roles, but they are certainly carriers - it makes sense to skimp on heavy fighters, since one starship hyperdrive brings a dozen reasonably effective craft to the fight. If you are poor on starships, have too much ground to cover, or have expensive crewmen, heavy fighters with hyperdrives begin to come in on their own.

I'd always thought this was the case, that it was a simple cost factor as a major reason. Though there is one flaw, as noted below.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2020-05-18 01:24pm As sensible as the costs argument is, I suspect that the Empire not wanting to make it easy for it's pilots to defect to the Rebels with (useful) hardware may have factored in. You prove your worth, prove you're loyal, then you can have a long-range fighter.

This is especially consistent with the fact that we never see the Empire use hyperspace rings, which were extremely common in the Republic Navy for its presumably similarly massive fleets of relatively cheap fighters that lack FTL.

It also is the best reason for things like the Death Star. The Empire had a massive problem with finding sufficiently loyal soldiers to man their ships and garrisons, and so they relied upon terror weapons that don't require large crews in relative terms. Operation Cinder in the aftermath of Endor also used satellites for the same reason, because they would not be able to be stopped by disloyal crews as easily. No one wants to be the one to bombard their own homeworld.

Adam Reynolds wrote: ↑2020-05-18 01:40pm I'd always thought this was the case, that it was a simple cost factor as a major reason. Though there is one flaw, as noted below.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2020-05-18 01:24pm As sensible as the costs argument is, I suspect that the Empire not wanting to make it easy for it's pilots to defect to the Rebels with (useful) hardware may have factored in. You prove your worth, prove you're loyal, then you can have a long-range fighter.

This is especially consistent with the fact that we never see the Empire use hyperspace rings, which were extremely common in the Republic Navy for its presumably similarly massive fleets of relatively cheap fighters that lack FTL.

It also is the best reason for things like the Death Star. The Empire had a massive problem with finding sufficiently loyal soldiers to man their ships and garrisons, and so they relied upon terror weapons that don't require large crews in relative terms. Operation Cinder in the aftermath of Endor also used satellites for the same reason, because they would not be able to be stopped by disloyal crews as easily. No one wants to be the one to bombard their own homeworld.

While the V-19 is said to have used a hyperdrive ring, V-wings never used them, and droid starfighters never used them. Nor did the New Republic/Rebel Alliance A-wing use hyperdrive rings.

If a hyperdrive is a fair chunk of the cost of a starship (as TPM makes pretty clear - you could basically trade a Naboo yacht for its hyperdrive - so it was maybe half the cost of the already-expensive ship), it makes no sense to use hyperdrive rings en masse unless your crew is expensive (e.g. a Jedi). Just load a hundred fighters onto your ship, light your one hyperdrive and go.

I do agree that ensuring political reliability was a major driver of the reliance of larger weapons platforms, up to and including Star Destroyers and Death Stars, and this design philosophy probably fed into TIE design.

Between cost-effectiveness in the context of cheap pilots, expensive hyperdrives, and plentiful capital ships, the impressive combat characteristics of a LWF, and a need for political control, the drivers for the TIE architecture seem pretty clear-cut.

The point was not that they would use them in masse, it was that they never used them at all even in cases where it might have been nice to have independent fighters.

Also, A-wings have their own hyperdrives as they jump with the rest of the fleet.

Indeed. A-Wings are seen making hyperspace jumps in both ROTJ and ROS, so you can't even argue early model/late model refits. IIRC in Legends canon, it wasn't until the K-Wing heavy bomber that the Rebels/New Republic built a mainline starfighter without a hyperdrive.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2020-05-18 02:53pm Indeed. A-Wings are seen making hyperspace jumps in both ROTJ and ROS, so you can't even argue early model/late model refits. IIRC in Legends canon, it wasn't until the K-Wing heavy bomber that the Rebels/New Republic built a mainline starfighter without a hyperdrive.

IIRC A-Wings made independent hyperspace jumps in Rebels too so even at earliest point in the timeline we saw A-Wings they had hyperdrives.

The old WEG/EU numbers were in order of cost -- (apparently some of these numbers are still being used by newer SW RPG books)

TIE Fighter: 60,000 new, 25,000 used
YT-1300: 100,000 new; 25,000 used
TIE Interceptor: 120,000 new
Firespray Patrol Craft - 120,000 new; 45,000 used
Assault Gunboat: 125,000 new
YT-2400: 130,000 new; 45,000 used (approx)
Y-Wing: 135,000 new, 65,000 used
TIE Bomber: 150,000 new
A-Wing: 175,000 new
B-Wing: 220,000 new
TIE Defender: "Over 300,000 credits"
Corellian Corvette: 3.5 million new, 1.5 million used
Nebulon B Frigate: 194 million new
Imperial Star Destroyer I: "Less than 20x cost of Nebulon B" so about 3.8 billion credits

I think that the main cost driver is engine power density -- which might explain why the TIE Interceptor and Bomber cost about twice as much as the TIE Fighter -- they came equipped with much more powerful engines which could support shields.

(The TIE Interceptor/Bomber in the old EU could be equipped with shields -- Admiral Zaarin's renegades did this)

Likewise, it also explains the negligble cost difference between a TIE Interceptor and YT-2400 -- the Corellian transport is much bigger than a TIE Interceptor and has heavier shields and armor ; but the engines have much lower power density, and thus cost.

One thing that the film Solo made me wonder about, is just how many Imperial TIE fighter pilots are random street bums who wandered into a Imperial Navy recruitment office, and just signed up. Were TIE fighters a potential gain in cleaning out the 'street trash' of certain Imperial worlds?

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2020-05-18 06:01pm One thing that the film Solo made me wonder about, is just how many Imperial TIE fighter pilots are random street bums who wandered into a Imperial Navy recruitment office, and just signed up. Were TIE fighters a potential gain in cleaning out the 'street trash' of certain Imperial worlds?

Think of it like this.

They probably signed up like most people who're enticed by special forces recruiting. They get promised a tryout for special forces / piloting, and none of them read the fine print -- if you fail the initial test, you have to repay the contract length; and so you get diverted to imperial ground forces for six years.

Adam Reynolds wrote: ↑2020-05-18 02:32pm The point was not that they would use them in masse, it was that they never used them at all even in cases where it might have been nice to have independent fighters.

Also, A-wings have their own hyperdrives as they jump with the rest of the fleet.

Oops. My mistake. Sorry.

Regarding the hyperdrive rings... do you see the size of those things? You're tripling, quadrupling, quintupling the size of a Jedi interceptor at least to get that thing running. The A-wing is a remarkable spacecraft for fitting a hyperdrive.

OTOH, we have no canonical information that contradicts the ability of a TIE to use a hyperdrive ring. As has been pointed out, the circle thing on the back of the TIE cockpit might be used for docking to a hyperdrive unit. But this is pure speculation and has no canon basis.

And the Imperial Navy may have adequate dedicated patrol craft to the point where it becomes pointless to send a low-endurance long-range heavy fighter to do the same job.

The Rebels need to hit and run. The Imperials need to patrol. And patrol requires persistence, not just hyperdrive. Why not send a Slave-I sized Firespray-class spacecraft or something the size of the Millenium Falcon with space for bunks (if modified) instead of a TIE?

I remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Navy considered Tie Fighters cheap and expendable, and therefore not worth hyperdrives or shields.
Tie Fighter pilots were expected to either rise above that through victory, or die and no longer be a waste of resources.

Tie Fighter pilots that survived got promoted to Tie Interceptors, and then eventually elite wings of Tie Avengers.

Basically, Tie Fighter design was meant to weed out the unskilled.

Solauren wrote: ↑2020-05-18 10:55pm I remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Navy considered Tie Fighters cheap and expendable, and therefore not worth hyperdrives or shields.
Tie Fighter pilots were expected to either rise above that through victory, or die and no longer be a waste of resources.

Tie Fighter pilots that survived got promoted to Tie Interceptors, and then eventually elite wings of Tie Avengers.

Basically, Tie Fighter design was meant to weed out the unskilled.

Well, there's propaganda, there's stated reasons, there's underlying political reasons, there's technical/cost-effectiveness reasons, and there's aggregate reasons for doing things which combine all of these (plus a little chance). Decisions are never made entirely on the basis of doctrine and ideology alone (although it gets worse than others in some places...).

As George Orwell noted, war tends to keep one in touch with reality. When designing a gun or a TIE fighter, two plus two must equal four. As usual, this was somewhat less true from 20BBY-0BBY, since the Empire was fighting far inferior opponents, so ideology might have had greater sway. Still, you can't shoot pirates with books on Social Darwinism or Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes.

The Empire could easily justify a cost-effectiveness/political control decision on a Social Darwinist ideology, or have cost-effectiveness and control considerations buttress an ideologically-driven design. Alternatively, statements like this might be New Republic propaganda with elements of truth (depending, as Obi-Wan famously said, on your point of view).

There need not be conflict between these points of view - since decisions are hardly ever made on purely technical considerations alone, and there's a lot of room even if purely technical considerations are taken into account.

I think the fact that the Jedi used lightweight fighters and that the Clones used lightweight fighters and that the CIS used droid lightweight fighters during the Clone Wars clearly indicates that lightweight fighters have technical and cost-effectiveness merits beyond pure ideology.

chimericoncogene wrote: ↑2020-05-18 11:17pmAs George Orwell noted, war tends to keep one in touch with reality. When designing a gun or a TIE fighter, two plus two must equal four. As usual, this was somewhat less true from 20BBY-0BBY, since the Empire was fighting far inferior opponents, so ideology might have had greater sway. Still, you can't shoot pirates with books on Social Darwinism or Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes.

Unless the Empire was going full Continuous War, in which case the physical realities of war can be placed second to other concerns. Continuous War enables continuous oppression et al. War is peace.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2020-05-18 11:33pm Unless the Empire was going full Continuous War, in which case the physical realities of war can be placed second to other concerns. Continuous War enables continuous oppression et al. War is peace.

Sure. But the empire was fighting pirates, scattered insurgents, Unknown regions states, and CIS remnants. Weak opponents with plenty of room for ideological fooling around sure, but war was not waged purely for ideology (exploited for oppression, sure).

This does not seriously affect the "multifactorial" explanation - I don't know about the weighting, and different people will believe in different weighting schemes. Ideology likely weighed heavily - pilots are more expensive than droids, and the moment the fight became real, the Imperial Remnant began shielding its fighters better and improving pilot survival. The argument stands regardless. Realistic states and realistic procurement/policy decisions cannot be reduced to ideological cardboard cutouts, buzzwords and two line slogans. There is always depth, however silly.

The Nazis were evil, but their defeat was not purely because of their evil. It was mostly from inferior resources, compounded by evil leading to mismanagement of the resources that remained through planning errors.

I find myself repeating that the Jedi used lightweight fighters too, and Tri Fighters lacked hyperdrives. If ideology was the sole reason to build a LWF, surely the Jedi would have preferred Headhunters?

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2020-05-18 06:01pm One thing that the film Solo made me wonder about, is just how many Imperial TIE fighter pilots are random street bums who wandered into a Imperial Navy recruitment office, and just signed up. Were TIE fighters a potential gain in cleaning out the 'street trash' of certain Imperial worlds?

It certainly helps all around in that regard. "Street trash" goes away, unemployment/crime goes down, and the Empire gets warm bodies to fill pieces of shiny new military hardware made by megacorp friends of the regime. If they're not great pilots or whatever, then give them a gun, some cheap armour, and throw them at some quagmire.

I wonder what a day in the life of a recruiter is in the Empire?

Another thing that supports the meat-grinder approach I suggested is the Empire sending out cheap-mass produced Tie Fighters enmass on mission.

Pirate group? 3 Star Destroyers, and launch all Tie Fighters and support craft. Cheap, but overwhelming firepower. The trash dies as 'heroes', and the elite rise up to strengthen the Empire.

After all, a skilled pirate might be able to take down someone in a Tie Avenger. He's far less likely to survive a swarm of 24 Tie Fighters.

Solauren wrote: ↑2020-05-19 08:15am Another thing that supports the meat-grinder approach I suggested is the Empire sending out cheap-mass produced Tie Fighters enmass on mission.

Wait. The same Meat Grinder Galactic Empire that sends out TIE pilots to die en masse (pilots have been traditionally intensive cost trained personnel, from upper classes) cares enough about it's ground troops (traditionally recruited from scum) to give them full body suits of armor that are also NBC proof and have all sorts of advanced tech inside the helmets?

If anything else, the Rebels are the meat-grinders, look at the equippage level of the Rebels at Hoth vs Snowtroopers.

MKSheppard wrote: ↑2020-05-19 10:35am

Solauren wrote: ↑2020-05-19 08:15am Another thing that supports the meat-grinder approach I suggested is the Empire sending out cheap-mass produced Tie Fighters enmass on mission.

Wait. The same Meat Grinder Galactic Empire that sends out TIE pilots to die en masse (pilots have been traditionally intensive cost trained personnel, from upper classes) cares enough about it's ground troops (traditionally recruited from scum) to give them full body suits of armor that are also NBC proof and have all sorts of advanced tech inside the helmets?

If anything else, the Rebels are the meat-grinders, look at the equippage level of the Rebels at Hoth vs Snowtroopers.

It might have resembled Clone Armor, but was apparently 'junk' in comparison.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2020-05-19 06:54pm

MKSheppard wrote: ↑2020-05-19 10:35am

Solauren wrote: ↑2020-05-19 08:15am Another thing that supports the meat-grinder approach I suggested is the Empire sending out cheap-mass produced Tie Fighters enmass on mission.

Wait. The same Meat Grinder Galactic Empire that sends out TIE pilots to die en masse (pilots have been traditionally intensive cost trained personnel, from upper classes) cares enough about it's ground troops (traditionally recruited from scum) to give them full body suits of armor that are also NBC proof and have all sorts of advanced tech inside the helmets?

If anything else, the Rebels are the meat-grinders, look at the equippage level of the Rebels at Hoth vs Snowtroopers.

It might have resembled Clone Armor, but was apparently 'junk' in comparison.

It would certainly explain why they lost so hard at Endor.

Stormtroopers were also 'mass produced', IRCC.

It all lines up with the Empire's philosophy. Overwhelming firepower and numbers. Basically, a 'zerg rushing' them.

It was only the elite units that had top of the line gear. i.e Vader's squadron.

Vader's squadron was a symbol of power and might.

Most other forces were meant to just scare the locals into compliance. You don't need top end stuff to do that. Just functional and scary looking.

I always hated the notion that TIEs are expendable. I'm not sure where it originated, but they trade pretty well against X-wings in the films (when not engaging Main Characters). The 'shields' on X-wings don't appear to do anything more than enable them to survive (with serious damage requiring astromech repair) glancing hits.

The two need not be mutually exclusive. They can be both decent and expendable.