StarDestroyer.Net BBS

SO!
It has always been a trend to pontificate upon Remaking or reworking the movies.
Now I know that Gripes against the Prequels and desires to redo them have been done to death, but I hope to avoid beating a dead horse as it were, and take a fresh look at information of what happened ‘Before’ based purely upon notes from the Original series, and then extrapolating that out from known gripes of what we got in the Prequels against what I humbly feel, might have been a better set up for the movies.
To start, I have gone through Transcripts of the movies, and copied pretty much ANY conversation that deals with events from BEFORE the original movies. SO the first half of my “what could the prequels have looked like” start basically with picking apart as many direct references to “The Before” from the original movies as possible.
One note, these snippets were taken from the screen play of the Movies, and as such contain text edited from the released movies.




PART ONE: MOVIE INFORMATION

INFORMATION OF EVENTS FROM “NEW HOPE”
BEN: “I don’t seem to remember ever owning a droid. Very interesting...”
Kenobi Does not “seem” to recognize R2 or 3PO and mentioned never “owning” one

BEN: “That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals.
Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.”
*Owen Lars was not directly involved in the wars and “did not get involved” There is no mention of what planet Owen is from, and may not have been Tatooine

“LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?
BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.”
This is the first mention of “The Clone Wars” as well as first mention of him and Anakin being “Jedi Knights”

BEN: “He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a friend.”
Establishing Anakins skill as a pilot, and mention of “Cunning Warrior” an interesting description.

BEN: “I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.”
Interesting point “Your father wanted you to have this” would make it seem that Anakin knew at least Luke was born, perhaps kept hidden from the Emperor.
Also comment about “Damned fool crusade” first overtly Religious reference to Jedi, also saying Anakin went on a “Damned fool crusade”

BEN: “An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.”
Timescale for Old Republic, the famous “Thousand Generations”
However two different “times” the ‘Dark times’ and then ‘Before the Empire’

BEN: “A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.
First mention of Vader and of him hunting down the other Jedi, naturally no mention of any Order66 or clones,

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
First mention of ‘The Force’ establishing it is created by “All living things” and gives a Jedi his power.

LELA: “General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.
Things mentioned “General Kenobi” Kenobi WAS a general and established as fighting in the Clone Wars.

(From the Death Star Meeting)
IMPERIAL GENERAL: “Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort...
Mention of “Ancient Religion” again, and of magic again calling Vader a “Sorcerer” as well as dismissive of such "magic"


INFORMATION OF EVENTS FROM “RETURN OF THE JEDI”
BEN: When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him.
This mentions Anakin was “great” when they met, but no mention of age.

BEN: I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy.
This line led to the belief that Kenobi tried to train Anakin outside of the council knowing, or without their approval. The mention of “Pride” and instructing “as good” as Yoda, reinforces Ben saying he was “Reckless” when talking to Yoda about Luke.

BEN: “Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been prepared.
More description of Anakin, being ‘Impatient’, also emphasis on Luke’s training being more about resisting the Dark Side then other Jedi Skills.

BEN: “To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, you must face Darth Vader again!
Again more reference to Anakin being Impatient, but also a mention of “what he found on the other side of the door” something that lured an impatient person.

BEN: “To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
The above may not contradict what Ben says in “New Hope” Anakin could have still known Luke was born, and wanted him to have his Light Sabre, but then Luke was taken away at Birth and hidden. Of course Anakin could have still kept this hidden from the Emperor.


PART TWO: SUMMARY OF FACTS
SO, summarizing information of what we have to go off of.
*The Clone Wars, a conflict that Ben and Anakin fought in, and Ben was a general.
*When Ben first meets Anakin, he was a great pilot and ‘Strong in the Force’
*Anakin is describes as cunning and a warrior, but also Impatient.
*The Jedi protected “peace and justice” for approx. 10,000 years in the Republic.
*The Jedi are viewed as an ‘Ancient’ Religious order and fanatical by some.
*Ben tried to train Anakin on his own, possibly without the council knowing and against Yoda’s wishes.
*Anakin “might” have known Luke was born but never got to see him. His birth is kept secret from the Emperor.
*Anakin as Vader helped to hunt down the Jedi to Extinction.

And that is pretty much it. In terms of a frame work for any sort of Prequels, the above is the purest we have to start with as a foundation going just off of the original movies... So… The next step begins to veer off into Pontification and extrapolation. Mostly to the ends of making a frame work of a story that avoids certain missteps we saw in the prequels as they were produced.


PART THREE: “INFERENCES AND SPECULATION”
*”The Clone Wars” Wars are often named after either where they are fought or who fights them. If something is named “The Clone wars” one imagines a war of clones against clones. Not “The Droid war” or “The Clone/Droid wars” but with a name of just “Clone Wars” one imagines it would be a war of either ONLY clones, or that clones were somehow “the bad guys” of the war.

*It is never said just how Young Anakin is when Ben meets him. Luke is between 18/20 years at “New Hope” Yoda says Luke is “too old” but this feels more like trying to gode Luke into wanting to be trained that much more. If Anakin was younger, but already a “Great Pilot” and warrior, one could put an age of perhaps 15/18. Any younger would stretch the “warrior” description, as one would have to imagine a pilot having to be able to kill another. Also putting an older Anakin, you can have a more fleshed out personality.

*In the movies, Jedi are time and again referred to as “Myths” or legends or extinct. They are dismissed as a dead religion, and jokingly called “wizards” or “sorcerers.” Virtually no one in the original series seems to remember the Jedi as anything in regards to “Guardians of peace and justice”. While much of this could be contributed to propaganda from the Empire, the amount that people dismiss Jedi seems to run much deeper. Propaganda is usually KNOWN to be propaganda and often dismissed as such. That so many cannot genuinely recall ANYthing about the Jedi, other than a “Wacky religion” would indicate that, even when they were ‘Active’ the Jedi must have been much more secretive in their activities.

*Kenobi remarked it was his pride that made him try and train Anakin, and that thought he could do so as well as Yoda could. He also said he trained him on his own. The little we see of Yoda in the movies fluctuates from ‘crazy old hermit’ to ‘cryptic sage’ and typically mixing the two. Yoda seemed to not confirm to rules and “did his own thing”. Also when Yoda tells Luke he is Reckless, Ben says “So was I” which can be inferred to Kenobi trying to train Anakin on his own.

*The few descriptions of Anakin are “Impatient, but Cunning” and a good pilot. Pilots by their nature live fast and one would assume enjoy speed and living fast. These are aspects one would imagine would be reflected in Anakin as being “Impatient” Also ‘Cunning’ a pilot, especially one in dog fighting, will have to be smart and think quickly, planning ahead and anticipating the movements of their enemy. Such a personality tends to often be very “simple” and not desire much beyond simply being able to be a pilot. Taking such a person out of being a pilot, and into training as a Jedi, would perhaps begin introducing such a personality to unfamiliar situations that would lead to more troubled encounters. Also such a personality, one would imagine would be more of a “free spirit” and find a rigid and dogmatic religious order to be a source of constant aggravation.


So yeah, i know, its only about 18 years past when everyone ELSE Was doing it.... But I hope to have had a fresh take on things. Plan on doing "PART-4" later this afternoon

Just a couple of thoughts on your thoughts:
-Crusade does have religious connotations strictly speaking but in modern speech not really, when coupled with idealistic, I wouldn't assume it was religious but in some way righteous and Kenobi appealed to Anakin's sense of justice to recruit him.
-I never parsed the dark times and the empire as two separate times myself I thought it was more repetition for emphasis. Either way works tbough.

And one of my own about the quotes. Clone WarS plural. Like say the Napoleonic Wars, which was actually a long sequence of wars as several coalitions tried to take on Napolean with only Britain a near constant opponent apart from one brief peace. To me that suggests a far long off and on conflict that we got in the actual prequels. Maybe as long as obi-wan's been going which would loop around to the dark times being a separate period to the empire and is synonymous with the decline of the Republic during the clone wars.

Of course the quotes about the past may well not add up nicely as I don't believe Lucas when he says it all planned out from the start not more than the broadest strokes anyway.

Going in reverse order...

Few writers ever truly have "it all planned out" as it were, or if they do... Such plans tend to change drastically. Much of what I look at in the originals I filter under the lens of "People making it up as they go along"

The "several wars" comparison is an apt one, and meant to mention. That will factor into my next post going into "How things should/would look" but the idea is simply, "parts" of the galaxy are already at war, and have been at war for a long time, but for the most part ignored until recently.

And, you are correct, "crusade" does not strictly need to be a religious linked endeavor... Though in this case I was emphasizing it more to link it to the over all treatment that the Jedi received in the first movie. Again, going off of the "Making it up as they go along" it feels very much that Lucas could;t fully deiced if he want to portray the Jedi as "Religious" and a holy order, or as "Wizards" with magic. It seems like he tried to basically do both, which is something I am hoping to make more clear in my analysis

Dark times and the empire could be the same thing. That's the interpretation I got. He was saying the Empire WAS the dark times. I also think that when Obi wan said he wanted you to have it he was a.) lying and b.) saying what he would have liked to believe. That if Anakin had not fallen he'd have wanted Luke to have it.

Oh of course, again, a lot of what we hear is filtered in long after the fact.
And of course the fact that Obi wan comes flat out in ESB and says "from a certain point of view" means you can take a lot of what he says with a big grain of salt..
Of course THAT is only from... Again... Lucus making stuff up as he went along. Like, is there anything showing that he PLANNED to have Vader as Lukes father from day one? or was that basically a Retcon to cover the "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" bit...

Either way, it is worth noting what he says vs what we actually got in the original prequels.

Oh it was totally added; it was for the best but it was a change nonetheless. But it could have been interpreted that way. ESB was a rare case of a retcon working in the stories favor (it's why I think Galvy's insistence that Anakin and Vader were different people is idiotic; it adds ambiguity to Obi Wan and Yoda, and forces them into being flawed if well meaning).

IMO, "from a certain point of view" is totally legitimate in fiction for the early stages of training in sci-fi.
Obi-Wan couldn't tell Luke, day one, "Your dad was too impulsive and power-drunk to ever fully embrace the Jedi ideals. You have the same problem. Now tell me about this droid.... Oh, that's your sister, by the way. Funny."
I don't have issue with minor retcon (course correction, really), especially when it's the same author as the original work.

As a parallel, in Dune, Paul is only told after reaching a certain point that he's been being trained as a Mentat, while his mother's prana bindu training of him was completely illegal and off the books until the interview with the Reverend Mother Mohiam, "Ignore the regular order of training; his safety requires the Voice."

OK, so after puttering around, poking and prodding, I have now my "vision" for a new prequel. Note that this is only the bares layout for a setting based upon the earlier break down of ideas. I am in no way the type to write out some full fledged 'FanMovie' script or such.. but just as sort of
"Here is how things could have looked"
A final note, much of what I have thought up is largely based around various 'hard to swallow' aspects from the original movies. Aspects about the Jedi, how people thought of them, of Anakin, of Kenobi and Yoda, and also how exactly a "galactic republic" can be made to so quickly collapse and be re-made into a dictatorial "Empire"

PART FOUR: OUTLINE OF RE IMAGINED SETTING FOR PREQUEL.
At the end of the day, For the Prequels to “work” there are really only a few key things that must take place.
A “War of Clones” must take place.
Anakin is a great pilot and great warrior when he meets Obi wan
Kenobi becomes a “General” during the war.
The Republic must become destabilized and allow the rise of “The Emperor”
Anakin has kids, and falls to the Dark Side.


*The Republic:
In this new setting, rather than a single Galaxy spanning super nation, it is a much more fractured group that acts more like a UN for other star systems than a single entity. Only sectors are represented in the great ‘senate’ building. An individual world must make an appeal to the larger sector it is a part of. If a world is thought of as too unimportant, or too poor, its problems may never be heard.
The time period is a sort of “gilded age” where the divide between super developed worlds that harbor the ultra-rich, and back water ‘support’ worlds has grown extreme. Many worlds exist purely to support the super-rich worlds of the inner core, whole worlds given over to mining or farming and harvesting vast resources that are shipped away. Over the last thousand years, the Republic has entered into a state of stagnation as various powers have reached a state of equilibrium with one another. These days the only true ‘wars’ being waged are economic, the great measure of power is no longer weapons or arms, but Money.
All the “evil empires” bent on conquest or destruction has been dealt with, all of the great threats taken care of. Any disruptive force big enough or strong enough to pose a threat has over the last thousand years been nullified. As a result, much of the Galaxy has disarmed, vast fleets of warships lay in mothballs in shipyards, un used and unmanned.
Except…
Out in the rim, in the poor regions, conflicts still flare up. Smaller nations fight over resources and such conflicts are largely ignored by the Republic as not being significant or enough of a threat to pay attention to.

*The Setting:
Out in the far rim, a small group of worlds have been at war for over a century. The two groups border the edge of two Sectors and have fought over a system that has been in the middle of the two sectors. The conflict has bogged down on a specific world that is an isolated poor backwater. Despite the age of the conflict, it is largely forgotten by the Republic as being too unimportant to deal with and the Sectors that the two groups are members of do not have the resources to force a peace between those involved. Neither side has ever been able to gain an advantage and seem to be in a perpetual stalemate.
However, there has recently been a change. One side has started fielding new tropes in huge quantities, the masked troops seem to act with blind obedience and have no mercy in fighting. The Quantities of the strange new troops has finally shifted the balance of the conflict and the backwater world is soon on the brink of fallen to the forces.
This change is a strange enough of a thing to draw the attention of the Jedi Council who send two Jedi to investigate.

*The Clones
The stalemate between the two factions battling over an un regarded war has been in place for over a 100 years. However something has changed recently that has given an edge to one side over the other. Forces of strange masked warriors have been assaulting locations all over the planet in massive amounts. The forces are often described as “robotic” and acting mindlessly but ruthlessly. The change in this has been clones. It would be said that cloning is of course well but has been banned for “plot reasons” The group making the clones are shown to make poor, often damaged ones, almost mindless killing machines.
The use of clones is something that is mostly over looked, but has the potential of opening a Pandoras box if various power blocks feel that the old taboos are being undone.

*The Jedi:
The Jedi, far from being an overt force, with a GIANT TEMPLE within spitting distance of the Galactic Capital building, is instead a secretive and devote order that works “from the shadows” to maintain peace in the Galaxy. They follow a very strict and structured religious dogma of selflessness. A distilled version of “Work is its own reward” they do not seek glory or to even be known. They have worked for thousands of years under a “We know what’s best for you” and part of why they are secretive, is often they will do things they feel “need to be done”. The deeper one goes into the “Inner Circle” of the Jedi, the more Dogmatic and isolated the individuals seem to become many Jedi seem to only interact with other Jedi and when not on a mission, will spend virtually all their time in Jedi temples.
In contrast to this, there is a small group that acts as a public face for the Jedi. They are an eccentric group that acts as a ‘smoke screen’ of sorts. They tend to the temples across the galaxy that are active ‘bases’ for the Jedi. Most of them are a mix of older “retired” Jedi, who tend the temples peacefully, and younger Jedi in training, who often volunteer for such duties as a way of seeing the outside world.
The few outsiders across the galaxy, who know of the Jedi, know them only as a group of eccentric wondering Monks that seem to hang around problem worlds preaching their ‘holy word’.

*Yoda:
The group of Jedi that work in the public’s eye and out in the open, are led and Influenced by Yoda, who often butts heads with the ‘Inner circle’ for being a bit too ‘eccentric’ at times.
Despite his advanced age, Yoda is much more ‘Liberal’ in his thinking and feels the Jedi order needs to ‘move with the times’ and feels those in the inner council, put more importance on ancient rules, than on doing good for the galaxy. Yoda loves his role as ‘head’ of this group and loves to play up the “Crazy Old Man” persona that he has refined over the centuries, typically in dealing with those he has little patience for. Indeed many of the inner council dismiss him, thinking him a senile old fool. To those that know him well, he is a wise sage that has trained many of the newest and best preforming Jedi.

*Kenobi:
Among the star pupils of Yoda, is Obi-wan. Young and full of energy, he has exceled in his studies and become a Jedi Knight faster than most. He knows the Doctrine and rules of the council in and out, but to the frustration of his tutors, will often treat them as ‘guidelines’ more than rules. He was taught chiefly by Yoda, who many see as a bad influence on Kenobi. Kenobi is thought by his elders to be too energetic at times and often may rush into a situation without fully thinking it through. While he is good friends with Yoda, and agrees that the Jedi need to ‘modernize’ he is often frustrated by Yoda, who he feels takes too much time making decisions or planning rather than acting.

*Anakin
Anakin is a simple pilot who was born and raised on the un-named planet that has been the center of battle for over a century. Conflict has been all that he has known and the life he knows is typically live fast and die in battle. His parents are both dead, and his only ‘family’ are his friends. He is jaded about the world he lives in and tends to see others as just wanting something from. Anakin despite his life in war places a high value on life and will often go to extreme lengths to defend the lives of others and value others above his own. Anakin has a view that life is forever out of his control, and often feels depressed that what he does will never “make a difference” in the grand scheme of the galaxy.

Crossroads Inc. wrote: ↑2020-11-05 02:13pm BEN: “That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals.
Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.”
*Owen Lars was not directly involved in the wars and “did not get involved” There is no mention of what planet Owen is from, and may not have been Tatooine

As I posted twelve years ago:

Galvatron wrote: ↑2008-08-06 10:22pm I have a hard time mentally reconciling "stayed here" in Obi-Wan's quote as referring to anything other than Tatooine.

Of course, we could start Episode 1 after Anakin leaves Tatooine behind with Obi-Wan. Hell, it could even be covered in the opening scroll. Think of how much exposition you can get out of the way in those three little paragraphs.

Even then it's complicated. Even if Anakin and Vader being one in the same was a retcon it worked in the storie's favor and can be reconciled. It also adds ambiguity to Obi Wan and Yoda in that while they aren't evil, they did lie (probably out of shame, fear that Luke would make the wrong choice). It shows them as more interesting and well rounded.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2020-11-05 11:56pm Oh it was totally added; it was for the best but it was a change nonetheless. But it could have been interpreted that way. ESB was a rare case of a retcon working in the stories favor (it's why I think Galvy's insistence that Anakin and Vader were different people is idiotic; it adds ambiguity to Obi Wan and Yoda, and forces them into being flawed if well meaning).

I didn't even post in this thread before you said that and you're still stewing about a disagreement we had three years ago. My god, you're a twat.

Aren't there better sources of ambiguity than "we lied to you about your father being the guy trying to kill you, and your sister being the lady with whom you're in a love triangle?"

In this case not really. Them keeping quiet out of fear Luke might hold back, or shame at failing to stop Anakin's fall is entirely compelling.

By contrast having Vader be his father and not Anakin removes the ambiguity and feels like it's prettying them in an "oh they didn't LIE they were just MISTAKEN". That is SUCH a copout.

Multiple Personality Disorder.

In the set-up being suggested - 'Vader' is a split personality that developed as a result of Anakin fighting in the war. It started as his call-sign, but it's becomes his 'Dark side' so to speak.

Eventually, when he falls, it's partially from that side taking over. The Emperor, pleased by this, doesn't rename him, but instead just adds 'Darth'

That also makes Anakin's return in ROTJ stronger. He's finally overcome his own Dark Side.

Interesting idea but I think a bit too brainy for Star Wars.

Also a copout. Anakin having to own his actions is more compelling.

There are multiple forms of M.P.D.

One way to get it is to deny your own actions or emotions, pushing them to the back.

That's what I'm suggesting for Anakin.

He denied, he denied, and his own mind, and the Force, balanced it out.

Still not impressed. What I liked was the implication that Vader's cold ruthless nature was a facade to hide his own deep seated self loathing; he knows he destroyed his life and that he has no one to blame but himself, but feels it's too late to ever go back so he might as well go all in.

That to me is much more compelling