Clone Wars rewrite project

[KraytKing]

This post will likely ramble a bit, fair warning.

I think the Clone Wars is a very interesting time to tell stories about, and I think it was completely wasted with the prequel trilogy and the Clone Wars TV show. I think both had a handful of excellent moments and ideas, but it was all couched in a terrific heap of garbage. And with Filoni's show, some of my favorite moments seem to have come by accident.

Ambitiously, I'm setting out to rewrite all of it, through the lens of the Clone Wars themselves. I have little practice writing prose, plots, and characters, so my take on the Clone Wars is only going to address those elements from afar. I have an idea for the fall of Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side -- but I don't know how to write his lines. So I won't try. I'm going to try to hearken back to what I believe the true Star Wars is, essentially meaning whatever Empire Strikes Back laid out, and also to address the true root of Star Wars: an allegory for the Third Reich. That most of all is what I regret losing more and more as the new Star Wars media stacks up. I'm also trying to make it all simply cool, in the same way the appearance of the Executor in TESB felt cool. Perhaps awe-inspiring is the better word, though that sounds a bit too self serving.

Why post this here? Well, I like this board. Many of you like the Clone Wars as it is laid out, I assume some of you don't, and I want to hear your feedback. So far I've only shared this story with the people who formed my opinion on the Clone Wars in the first place, and if that isn't an echo chamber then I don't know what is.

My format so far has been to write out a broad framework outlining galactic events from before the First Clone War to the rise of the Empire, followed by a series of vignettes each highlighting an important flashpoint. I've already written out a lot of it, but it's rambling and unpolished, so I'm going to clean it up a bit before posting. Here's an outline:

The Jedi are servants of objective good, but I think the Jedi Temple is more akin to the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century than any true center of wisdom. I think Yoda should already have been a monk living on the fringe of the galaxy, not grandmaster of an enormous temple in the heart of the galactic government. True Jedi like Yoda MUST remain the absolute good in the universe, this isn't a manifesto about how everything is morally grey and the Nazis have a point. The only reason, in my mind, that the Jedi Order falls is because they have grown corrupt and self-righteous over the years. Each Jedi is essentially the overplayed Paladin archetype from D&D: lawful good, but will casually murder anyone of evil alignment and will claim to be justified in doing it.

The Republic was once a good thing, but is slipping away from democracy. Fascism can only rise on a galactic stage because democracy needed to be refreshed, NOT because it was inherently flawed. The Old Republic of millennia past WAS a good, democratic, driven state. It was capable of taking care of ALL its citizens while remaining a voice for the unheard. The corruption and decay that allows the Clone Wars to occur MUST be portrayed as a failing of that particular state, NOT a failing of democracy. The rise of authoritarianism is a tragic warning.

The clones are something special. To me, they make no sense as they were written. If the Republic is fighting the droid armies of the Separatists, then why would they have any trouble finding volunteers? The droids are clearly evil, the Republic has trillion-sapient city planets, growing clones is such a backwards concept. However. What if the clones are rewritten a bit? A critical element of the rise of European fascism to me is that they were not popular movements. It was always a violent minority that took over governments and then consolidated power until it was the majority. The clones therefore must represent this. The galaxy doesn't want evil authoritarianism, but the clones are that concept given life. They are the Waffen SS. They are violent sociopaths, they will shrink from no task, and they will masquerade as a necessary evil to save the galaxy until everyone around them is eventually just evil. They are human, not aliens, and they justify the Imperial Human High Culture to come. Above all, they are an introspection. They are not modified to be loyal or monstrous, they are simply raised that way. They should be a warning of the potential we all carry within us to be mindless, monstrous servants to a great evil.

Lastly, the Clone Wars need to be fought against the people of the galaxy, not a morally empty droid threat. I think the first secession should be fought by industrialists with droid armies, because that is the easiest thing for Palpatine to manipulate into reality. But once the wars get going, it needs to be regular sapients on the receiving end. The Republic is definitely the good guy in the first episode, the clones are definitely the heroes. But by the end, it must be made clear that the Empire is NOT a state militarized by necessity: the enemy it is crushing must now be sympathetic.


Anyway, that's the meat of it all, I think. The rest is just particulars. Enjoy, or don't I guess.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I like projects like this. And while I broadly liked the canon Clone War in and of itself, I wasn't entirely happy with it. Like the prequels as a whole, it could have been so much more.

The obvious change that comes to mind would be to make the war bigger and longer. This needs to be a nightmare war, a war that leaves the galaxy traumatized; and either willing to accept Imperial rule for the sake of peace, or so warped by violence that Imperial brutality doesn't faze it much, at least for a while.

It also allows more time for useful developments. For one, it would give the Republic time to raise a mass army - the future Imperial Army - to support the clones; all the while setting up the infrastructure for recruiting and training stormtroopers. It would also allow for multiple different conflicts - Clone 'wars' rather than 'war' - and allow for widespread use of cloning by multiple factions; fitting with earlier conceptions of the Clone Wars.

[Darth Yan]

1.) You kinda missed the point. The Jedi fell into the same trap as Anakin did. They were overly attached to their power and didn't want to loose it, hence why they continued to fight for the Republic even as it got corrupt. Yoda being complicit is fine, especially since he himself acknowledges it. Evil doesn't rise unless good people screw up and since Yoda's the big good he needs to make mistakes.

2.) Also the Nazis DID wield a lot of popular support, as did Japanese militarists.

3.) And it also ignores that even with atrocities like My Lai there were those who tried to defy orders so the idea of every single clone just being a monster because they CHOSE to be that way is utterly stupid. Conditioning can only go so far, and if Palpatine has a way to make them all go along with it he's going to do it. The clones being modified DOES make logical sense since again Palpatine isn't going to take any chances with Clones genuinely bonding with their jedi and disobeying orders. It also doesn't help that sociopaths SUCK as soldiers and Palpatine needs good soldiers. So the clones wouldn't just have a murderous hatred of the Jedi. You want them as unthinking automatons

4.) Not all Jedi are arrogant. Most of the ones we see (Plo Koon, Obi Wan, Ahsoka) are genuinely benevolent to their clones and easy going in general. Since sociopaths are actually utterly incompetent soldiers the clones wouldn't be sociopaths who are incapable of liking Jedi who are nice.

5.) Considering that Palpatine was playing both sides against each other the tragedy is still there. That's the sad part. All the violence was pointless since it was ALL done to serve Palpatine.

[Gandalf]

Ambitiously, I'm setting out to rewrite all of it, through the lens of the Clone Wars themselves. I have little practice writing prose, plots, and characters, so my take on the Clone Wars is only going to address those elements from afar. I have an idea for the fall of Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side -- but I don't know how to write his lines. So I won't try. I'm going to try to hearken back to what I believe the true Star Wars is, essentially meaning whatever Empire Strikes Back laid out, and also to address the true root of Star Wars: an allegory for the Third Reich. That most of all is what I regret losing more and more as the new Star Wars media stacks up. I'm also trying to make it all simply cool, in the same way the appearance of the Executor in TESB felt cool. Perhaps awe-inspiring is the better word, though that sounds a bit too self serving.

Yeah, I think this is where they really dropped the ball. The clones as they appeared at the end of AOTC were fantastic. They swoop in with cool toys, fearless faces, and score a sweet victory over the enemy. Then the final shot of the film is like Triumph of the Will, with hints of the Imperial March in the score.

But then clone wars happened, and they became the good guys for some reason. Like you outline, it would have been neat if as a regular volunteer army grew and became the heroes, the genetically engineered slave race of clones were not so much soldiers as they were Palpatine's reliable goon squad. Regular volunteers fight the Separatists away for a nice PR victory, and the clones go in afterwards and purge the remnants of the politically unreliable.

[bilateralrope]

3.) And it also ignores that even with atrocities like My Lai there were those who tried to defy orders so the idea of every single clone just being a monster because they CHOSE to be that way is utterly stupid. Conditioning can only go so far, and if Palpatine has a way to make them all go along with it he's going to do it. The clones being modified DOES make logical sense since again Palpatine isn't going to take any chances with Clones genuinely bonding with their jedi and disobeying orders. It also doesn't help that sociopaths SUCK as soldiers and Palpatine needs good soldiers. So the clones wouldn't just have a murderous hatred of the Jedi. You want them as unthinking automatons

Also we have to remember that Jedi have some level of telepathy. They would probably notice the conditioning and/or how much hate the soldiers have for Jedi. Which makes it much harder to have all the powerful Jedi surrounded by soldiers who will pull off Order 66 without hesitation when its given.

[Gandalf]

Also we have to remember that Jedi have some level of telepathy. They would probably notice the conditioning and/or how much hate the soldiers have for Jedi. Which makes it much harder to have all the powerful Jedi surrounded by soldiers who will pull off Order 66 without hesitation when its given.

The old novelisation of ROTS (I think?) answers this pretty well. It states that the Jedi didn't sense any murderous intent from the clones, just the usual order following mindset that they always had. A wonderful banality of evil moment, and a little amusing as their slaves turned on them.

A few Jedi saw through it and survived, but most didn't.

[Solauren]

First, research all the clone wars material, and make notes on what you want to include, and toss aside.

Next, make a timeline of what you want to include
Then expand it to the level you want, and include elements you want.


Once you have that, you can start writing it, out, minus the dialogue. Instead of dialogue, you put in 'Anakin has a witty reply', 'Anakin says something shyly that makes Padme blush'. Then you can go back as inspiration strikes you to put in actual dialogue.

[KraytKing]

Chapter One, background.

The last war with the Sith was ended by the Ruusan Reformation, which demilitarized the Republic and built a structure for lasting peace in the galaxy. This marked the zenith of the Republic. In celebration of the success everyone was certain the Reformation represented, from then on years were marked as High Republican Era, starting with the year of the Reformation. This roughly matches canon.

By the late eight hundreds High Republican Era, matters had begun to disintegrate. The Jedi had slipped away from the lofty ideals of their founding, aside from a few scattered members around the fringes of the galaxy. The power of the Senate and the Chancellor had begun to slip, but the power of their constituents was long gone already -- elected officials used what power they had to serve paying private interests. At first, powerful worlds began to hold greater and greater sway over the new sectors being explored, but over time their influence was superseded by multiplanetary corporations. The Commerce Guild, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, and others began to gather enormous amounts of financial and political capital. As the nine hundreds HRE began, the pace with which these private interests gathered power continued to accelerate.

The Mid and Outer Rim were both territories where Republic law held little sway, and in the nine hundreds these large corporations started to exploit that. Rampant piracy meant cargo shipments had to be well defended, which tended to drive small competitors out of business. Eventually, several of the biggest fish in the pond formed a cartel: the Corporate Alliance. The time when Coruscant might have interdicted such an initiative was long since past, and within a few years the Corporate Alliance even had a Senate seat of its own, on top of the seats many of its members held. In the Core, the cartel provided cheap, quality products, but was largely unable to compete with the pedigrees of ancient Core corporations. However, once out into the Expansion Region and the Mid Rim, the cartel was dominant. Consumer products were by and large locally produced, but a massive percentage of industrial manufacturing and raw materials mining/transport was controlled by the Corporate Alliance.

The Outer Rim was the true base of power, however. There, Republic law was virtually nonexistent, replaced with the law of arms. The Judicials were paid off wherever they might see something. The military arm of the Corporate Alliance, justified by piracy, had grown fat enough to begin threatening entire Outer Rim worlds. Whole mining planets had been taken under direct administration, usually for failure to pay debt, and were essentially forced labor camps. Not content to simply run shipping, cartel warships began taxing other freighters for passage in protection rackets. Mercenary armies initially formed the bulk of their muscle, but gradually they were phased out in favor of droid armies. The droids were cheaper, sufficiently powerful for the occasional strike-breaking, and didn't report sapient rights abuses. Geonosis eventually joined the cartel, offered a hefty compensation package in terms of mineral rights, and quickly became the sole droid designer.

The Jedi might once have seen this and dismantled it, but they had sunk too low. The Coruscant Jedi Order tended to stick to the Core and the Colonies. Those few that did venture out, did so on mission trips to aid the suffering. Invariably, they failed to glimpse or intentionally denied the truth. A Jedi Master would work tirelessly in a community to help irrigate their fields with clean water, spending months in self-denial until the work was done, all the while denying that the Commerce Guild spacecraft he had flown in on had been produced in the very factory that was poisoning these people.

The only real issue were the non-Order Jedi. Very few in number, they were mostly those Coruscant Jedi who eventually became disillusioned with the state of the Jedi and sought change. Individually, these Jedi could make some difference, but the scale was all wrong to be a true threat to the Corporate Alliance. They did not have the backing of the galactic government, and the Temple disavowed most of them as servants of the Dark Side. One of them might liberate a world from a cruel governor, but without backup, the world would be crushed again in short order. The more radical of these Jedi were often hunted by the Judicials, who would walk heedlessly through blatantly criminal Corporate Alliance facilities in the process. Others would simply pass on their teachings to communities in need, laying the seeds for their own self-liberation.

Out-of-universe: this is meant to be a criticism of self-righteous religious in our world. The Catholic Church has immense power, yet they don't take on the true evils that create the problems they claim to fight. That's what I'm trying to evoke here. The Jedi on Coruscant have their heads so far up their own asses, and are so in love with their trillion-credit budget, that they will never be an effective force to fight evil again. The expat Jedi are the ones capable of good, but they're too scattered and often actually do fall to the Dark Side under the stress of fighting such an enormous, cruel galaxy.

This is my least favorite chapter. The Economy is one of those boxes in Star Wars that really doesn't need to be opened, like hyperspace ramming. It's just a thing everyone should not think about and pretend works just like it needs to for the movies to make sense. If you have a problem with something I've laid out regarding the economy, that is entirely expected.

[KraytKing]

1.) You kinda missed the point. The Jedi fell into the same trap as Anakin did. They were overly attached to their power and didn't want to loose it, hence why they continued to fight for the Republic even as it got corrupt. Yoda being complicit is fine, especially since he himself acknowledges it. Evil doesn't rise unless good people screw up and since Yoda's the big good he needs to make mistakes.

Sure, that's a fine thought. They did a terrible job with that in the trilogy. I'm shaky on how involved Yoda should be; I know he shouldn't be a lightsaber fighter or a general, but maybe he can be part of the order. So. Taken under consideration.

2.) Also the Nazis DID wield a lot of popular support, as did Japanese militarists.

Yes, absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, I only meant they were not MAJORITY. Not everyone in Germany was going to gas Jews in 1933. They did, eventually, but my point is that "humans are not majority evil, but we are capable of it if it becomes society." The people of the Galaxy don't want to be racist and authoritarian, but eventually they will support it.

3.) And it also ignores that even with atrocities like My Lai there were those who tried to defy orders so the idea of every single clone just being a monster because they CHOSE to be that way is utterly stupid. Conditioning can only go so far, and if Palpatine has a way to make them all go along with it he's going to do it. The clones being modified DOES make logical sense since again Palpatine isn't going to take any chances with Clones genuinely bonding with their jedi and disobeying orders. It also doesn't help that sociopaths SUCK as soldiers and Palpatine needs good soldiers. So the clones wouldn't just have a murderous hatred of the Jedi. You want them as unthinking automatons

A bit of a misunderstanding here. It'll be more clear in time, but I don't think the clones should be automatons at all. They're just soldiers. They'll kill civilians if it helps them, they'll use chemical weapons, whatever it takes to get the job done. But they do bond with each other and with others they interact with, for sure, they're human.

They are also a commentary on what humanity is capable of, and for that to be effective they cannot be genetically modified. Fuck the in-universe reasons why Palpatine would want absolute reliability, it doesn't fly.

4.) Not all Jedi are arrogant. Most of the ones we see (Plo Koon, Obi Wan, Ahsoka) are genuinely benevolent to their clones and easy going in general. Since sociopaths are actually utterly incompetent soldiers the clones wouldn't be sociopaths who are incapable of liking Jedi who are nice.

This is a Clone Wars rewrite, so it's odd that you're providing Clone Wars sources to refute me. I've already said that whole thing is, on the whole, fucking stupid. Give me a story reason why the Jedi should be benevolent, and why the embodiment of violence would appreciate a benevolent leader, and then I'll pay attention.

[Darth Yan]

1.) You kinda missed the point. The Jedi fell into the same trap as Anakin did. They were overly attached to their power and didn't want to loose it, hence why they continued to fight for the Republic even as it got corrupt. Yoda being complicit is fine, especially since he himself acknowledges it. Evil doesn't rise unless good people screw up and since Yoda's the big good he needs to make mistakes.

Sure, that's a fine thought. They did a terrible job with that in the trilogy. I'm shaky on how involved Yoda should be; I know he shouldn't be a lightsaber fighter or a general, but maybe he can be part of the order. So. Taken under consideration.

2.) Also the Nazis DID wield a lot of popular support, as did Japanese militarists.

Yes, absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, I only meant they were not MAJORITY. Not everyone in Germany was going to gas Jews in 1933. They did, eventually, but my point is that "humans are not majority evil, but we are capable of it if it becomes society." The people of the Galaxy don't want to be racist and authoritarian, but eventually they will support it.

3.) And it also ignores that even with atrocities like My Lai there were those who tried to defy orders so the idea of every single clone just being a monster because they CHOSE to be that way is utterly stupid. Conditioning can only go so far, and if Palpatine has a way to make them all go along with it he's going to do it. The clones being modified DOES make logical sense since again Palpatine isn't going to take any chances with Clones genuinely bonding with their jedi and disobeying orders. It also doesn't help that sociopaths SUCK as soldiers and Palpatine needs good soldiers. So the clones wouldn't just have a murderous hatred of the Jedi. You want them as unthinking automatons

A bit of a misunderstanding here. It'll be more clear in time, but I don't think the clones should be automatons at all. They're just soldiers. They'll kill civilians if it helps them, they'll use chemical weapons, whatever it takes to get the job done. But they do bond with each other and with others they interact with, for sure, they're human.

They are also a commentary on what humanity is capable of, and for that to be effective they cannot be genetically modified. Fuck the in-universe reasons why Palpatine would want absolute reliability, it doesn't fly.

4.) Not all Jedi are arrogant. Most of the ones we see (Plo Koon, Obi Wan, Ahsoka) are genuinely benevolent to their clones and easy going in general. Since sociopaths are actually utterly incompetent soldiers the clones wouldn't be sociopaths who are incapable of liking Jedi who are nice.

This is a Clone Wars rewrite, so it's odd that you're providing Clone Wars sources to refute me. I've already said that whole thing is, on the whole, fucking stupid. Give me a story reason why the Jedi should be benevolent, and why the embodiment of violence would appreciate a benevolent leader, and then I'll pay attention.

1.) No it flies, YOU just don't like. If a story point makes thematic sense but lacks internal logic with the story than the themes need to die in a fire.

2.) Except that people who "do whatever it takes" and "embodiment of violence" are usually rather incompetent as soldiers, since it means they ignored other more effective options (the few times such "hard decisions" are necessary it's because they or someone else royally shat the bed.) So saying they all must be willing to commit horrific war crimes is unrealistic. There would be a fair number who refuse to do those things.

A competent soldier isn't just good at killing. They're also good at showing mercy.

3.) Because if they're ALL assholes it's basically grimderp at it's finest. Obi Wan has fond memories and is clearly coded as a good (if flawed) person so if every main temple Jedi is just an asshole it doesn't compute. Even in ROTS Yoda was more benevolent but flawed; same with Mace and the others.

Having the order mean well but lost their way is better than "oh they're just jerks" which you seem to want.

And again, the clones would be worthless if all they knew was violence. So they wouldn't have just rejected someone who was benevolent or wanted a more subtle approach to things.

4.) In legends there's ONE case where the clones refuse to follow Order 66. Realistically there would be a lot more (maybe a quarter would say no) and again Palpatine will NOT take chances. He wants them ALL dead at once.

You also missed how Palpatine was playing both sides against the others, meaning all the death was even MORE pointless. The final shot of the show captures this beautifully. All that death.....and it just allowed a monster to rise to power and fuck up the Galaxy even worse than it already was.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm getting this odd sense of deja vu

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The way I see it, the Jedi and the Clones actually have a lot in common; in that they are both cults. Both are raised within their cults from infancy or birth, and are totally indoctrinated in the beliefs and worldview of their cults; with little or no outside influences until a certain point. The only substantive difference is in their ethos; the Clones are meant to be soldiers, the Jedi to be Jedi.

As I see it, the Jedi are good because they are sincere and without malice. Their indoctrination makes them so. They genuinely want to follow their mandate, and use the Force and their own knowledge and understanding to help others; and to maintain the Republic by solving its problems. But as Kraytking's narrative shows, they can only deal with immediate, practical problems; not underlying problems. They can't just storm into a corrupt governor's office and arrest him; unless they have a warrant and/or substantial evidence of his wrongdoing. And even if they did, said governor would very likely walk free after a long and expensive trial; because the judicial system couldn't even convict Nute Gunray for invading and occupying a planet.

The Jedi won't go against their mandate, and they don't question it. They can't question their mandate, because that means questioning the Code. And they can't question the Code because their own indoctrinated minds won't let them. They have not been allowed anywhere near Critical Analysis, or serious thought of any kind, until the Code is firmly internalised. More on this later.

In turn, the Clones have their own code; their own system of right and wrong, developed in total isolation from galactic society. In that respect they are not merely a fighting force, but a laboratory in which Palpatine can develop his Imperial military ideology. The crucial aspects of this are the normalisation of violence and obedience to authority. The former is, I think, what Kraytking is trying to express. To the Clones, killing is just something that they do as part of their role; it has no moral or ethical significance beyond that. To outsiders they might like like murderous sociopaths or unthinking automata, but to the Clones this is all just normal. No psychological gymnastics - of the sort that can drive people insane - are needed.

As for obedience to authority, good soldiers follow orders. Orders exist to be obeyed. If you do not obey, then you are not a soldier, and if you are not a soldier, then you do not exist. If killing is a perfectly normal activity, and orders must be obeyed, then killing is not a problem. No particular hate or malice is needed, or even enjoyment. Nothing to think or feel guilt about afterwards. The order is given, and the order is carried out.

Of course, for both, life is a bit more complicated than that; and for the same reasons. Both are indoctrinated and kept away from outside influences; but sooner or later, they have to go out into the galaxy. This means meeting people, and getting involved with things. For the Clones this is less of a problem, for they operate almost entirely within the context of warfare. For the Jedi it's quite tricky, because they have to think their way around problems; after having had their capacity for thought tightly restricted their whole lives. They are much more likely to have their fundamental beliefs challenged, and their limited capacities exposed. A lot of them will simply shut down such thoughts and carry on, rather than face the cognitive dissonance. But at least a few will find that they cannot reconcile the demands of the Code with the realities of the galaxy outside, and what they are supposed to be doing. They will act on their own, and try to change things; even if it means being treated as criminals.

For Clones, the same thing is quite possible too; though for slightly different reasons. Out in the galaxy they cannot be isolated any more; so they start meeting people who aren't enemies or targets. The obvious ones are their Jedi Generals, or Jedi they have to work with as part of the war effort. Jedi are worthy of respect, because they are clearly potent in battle, and useful to have around. That they have lived a similar life to the Clones, a life of cloistering and constant training, makes mutual understanding possible. A bond can result, their subconscious minds reclassifying these people from outsider to friend, and maybe even to kindred. If these doubters are clustered together, then a mutiny might be in the offing. But if they are alone, and surrounded by comrades who show no such doubt, then peer pressure will do the rest.

But there is a danger inherent in a Jedi or Clone breaking away; and that is catharsis. A good example of this comes from Spain in the 1920s, when the old social order was breaking down. There are stories from that time of rioters breaking into convents, pulling mummified bodies out of crypts or reliquaries, and even dancing with them in the streets. It sounds crazy, but it makes some sense in context. Spanish Catholicism at that time was intensely superstitious, and all-encompassing to the point of totalitarianism. Such desecration was part of a psychological backlash; a need to defile and destroy that which they had once worshipped.

For Clones, having to walk away from their entire family, to effectively choose not to exist, must have been hard enough. But for Jedi, whose psychological domination was far deeper due to the Force, it must have been even worse. It would be all too easy for an ex-Jedi, in the throes of catharsis, to fall to the Dark Side. To me, that's a major reason why so many Dark Jedi and Sith are so utterly crazy and bloodthirsty; they're working off a lifetime of repression, and their entire system of emotional control and management has fallen apart. In turn, the Order takes this as further proof that to reject the Code is to embrace the Dark Side, and becomes even more controlling.

[Darth Yan]

That is itself an oversimplification.

This article actually sums up the Jedi pretty well
http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/04/s ... ttachment/

Essentially SELFLESS love (i.e. where you put others before yourself) is ok, selfish love (i.e. the possessive kind) is bad. The article still points out that the Jedi made mistakes; Han and Leia show Romance CAN be selfless and unpossessive, so in that regard the Jedi were overly strict. If Anakin had been able to talk about his feelings he could have gotten counseling.

The other mistake is that the Jedi were overly attached to their power and position. They liked the status quo and thus despite their beliefs to the contrary focused more on maintaining it rather than enforcing justice. The Kaleesh case is the best example. The Yamrii were the aggressors attacking Kaleesh land. The Kaleesh fought back and drove them away before attacking their worlds. The Yamrii played the victim card and the Jedi took the Yamrii side because the Yamrii were Republic allies. This indirectly created General Grievous (the IBC assumed his world's debt and helped heal their economy in exchange for his services.)

[Gandalf]

For Clones, having to walk away from their entire family, to effectively choose not to exist, must have been hard enough. But for Jedi, whose psychological domination was far deeper due to the Force, it must have been even worse. It would be all too easy for an ex-Jedi, in the throes of catharsis, to fall to the Dark Side. To me, that's a major reason why so many Dark Jedi and Sith are so utterly crazy and bloodthirsty; they're working off a lifetime of repression, and their entire system of emotional control and management has fallen apart. In turn, the Order takes this as further proof that to reject the Code is to embrace the Dark Side, and becomes even more controlling.

All of what you said was cool, but this bit stood out because it made me jump off a bit mentally.

What about the Jedi makes them commanders of clones, or even warriors at all? Is leading squads (or more) of Force users part of their training?

In ANH, Obi Wan clearly feels some sort of pain when Alderaan is destroyed. Jedi empathy reaches out, so when there's a war on an interstellar level, this must cause some sort of trauma for the Jedi.

Considering Yoda's response of "they'll join the Force" to Anakin when he was worried about Padme, I doubt the Jedi as an organisation have the means to handle the declining mental health of their staff. It would be interesting to see some Jedi taking space heroin just to shut out everyone else's pain so they can sleep at night, but scared to come forward because it's a Jedi code of conduct violation.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Essentially SELFLESS love (i.e. where you put others before yourself) is ok, selfish love (i.e. the possessive kind) is bad. The article still points out that the Jedi made mistakes; Han and Leia show Romance CAN be selfless and unpossessive, so in that regard the Jedi were overly strict. If Anakin had been able to talk about his feelings he could have gotten counseling.

I would define selfless love as part of what I was describing. They are sincere in their selfless love - or at least in attempting to attain it - and have no underlying malice in their attempts to attain and act on it.

The problem is pretty much as the article describes. Anakin needed help, and they didn't help him. I can't help but think that they simply didn't know how.

As for them being too attached to their power, to me that ties in to their world-view once again. If all they wanted to do was study the Force and help the galaxy, then they didn't need the mandate; they could simply hide themselves away somewhere, and come and go as they liked. Indeed, depending on how much Legends material gets re-canonised, they've done this several times before.

But there are two problems with this. For one, they face the not-unreasonable question of who or what gave them the right to act. With the mandate, their right and duty to act is enshrined in law. The other problem is that the mandate also enshrines their right to take Force-sensitive children; regardless of their parents/guardians/community's wishes. Without the mandate, they must either settle for being refused, or be kidnappers in the eyes of the law.

So, in order to be themselves, they must have the mandate. And to have the mandate, they must serve the Republic, and involve themselves in its politics. And serving the Republic means doing the Senate's bidding; even if it means acting against their beliefs and instincts.

By all rights, there should have been a lot more rogue Jedi; as KraytKing implies. Heck, in the AOTC novelisation, it is mentioned that many Jedi - perhaps even most - considered Dooku's complaints against the Republic to be 'not without merit.'

All of what you said was cool, but this bit stood out because it made me jump off a bit mentally.

What about the Jedi makes them commanders of clones, or even warriors at all? Is leading squads (or more) of Force users part of their training?

In ANH, Obi Wan clearly feels some sort of pain when Alderaan is destroyed. Jedi empathy reaches out, so when there's a war on an interstellar level, this must cause some sort of trauma for the Jedi.

Considering Yoda's response of "they'll join the Force" to Anakin when he was worried about Padme, I doubt the Jedi as an organisation have the means to handle the declining mental health of their staff. It would be interesting to see some Jedi taking space heroin just to shut out everyone else's pain so they can sleep at night, but scared to come forward because it's a Jedi code of conduct violation.

The Jedi's (un)suitability to be commanders has been covered often enough before. Aside from Palpatine setting them up for Order 66, I'd say this was accepted for political reasons. The Jedi were an ancient and (mostly) respected institution, so putting the clones under their control might have made them more acceptable to Republic society as a whole.

But on the whole; yes, the Jedi probably can't cope with any of it. If Pong Krell, Barriss Offee, and Anakin for that matter are any indication, they have trouble even noticing that their members are going insane.

[Solauren]

The Jedi were put in charge, because they were the closest the Republic had to standing military force.

And through alot of their service, you sent in Jedi, it ended the problem
For larger problems, Jedi lead a small task force/mercenary group in, and ended the problem.

Therefore, going by that pattern, it would almost make sense for 'this is a problem with an enemy army, send in an army, lead by Jedi, to end the problem'.

It might even been that it was in the Republic's laws that in the event of war, Jedi became leaders in the army. A hold over from the Ruusan reformations. The Jedi were warrior-soldiers then, so they will be now.


Unfortunately, by that point, the Jedi had changed from warrior-soldiers, to 'cop-diplomats'.

[tezunegari]

The other problem is that the mandate also enshrines their right to take Force-sensitive children; regardless of their parents/guardians/community's wishes. Without the mandate, they must either settle for being refused, or be kidnappers in the eyes of the law.

What's the source on Jedi having the right to take force-sensitive children against the family's wishes?
Aren't the Jedi canonically only taking children from consenting families or orphans?

The only time I remember there being a scandal about the Jedi taking in a child was after a disaster with the parents thought dead.

[Darth Yan]

The other problem is that the mandate also enshrines their right to take Force-sensitive children; regardless of their parents/guardians/community's wishes. Without the mandate, they must either settle for being refused, or be kidnappers in the eyes of the law.

What's the source on Jedi having the right to take force-sensitive children against the family's wishes?
Aren't the Jedi canonically only taking children from consenting families or orphans?

The only time I remember there being a scandal about the Jedi taking in a child was after a disaster with the parents thought dead.

Pretty much. Otherwise the Jedi honored the parents wishes and didn't recruit.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The other problem is that the mandate also enshrines their right to take Force-sensitive children; regardless of their parents/guardians/community's wishes. Without the mandate, they must either settle for being refused, or be kidnappers in the eyes of the law.

What's the source on Jedi having the right to take force-sensitive children against the family's wishes?
Aren't the Jedi canonically only taking children from consenting families or orphans?

The only time I remember there being a scandal about the Jedi taking in a child was after a disaster with the parents thought dead.

Pretty much. Otherwise the Jedi honored the parents wishes and didn't recruit.

The Baby Ludi case is still canon, but there are no particular details. In Legends, the Jedi mistakenly believed her to be a disaster orphan; and yes, parental consent was normally required. Consider the point withdrawn.

[KraytKing]

The First Clone War

In the year 992 HRE, the Grand Army of the Republic sprang into existence. Secretly ordered by an eccentric Jedi Council Master, since deceased, the Grand Army was made up of cloned super soldiers grown in the Unknown Regions. They had their own command structure, and came at a time of increasingly obvious galactic unrest. The first use of clone troopers was breaking a strike on Eriadu that had been allowed to get violent. The Republic obviously didn't really know what to do with their new army, but lawmakers were eager to get in on renegotiating arms contracts to be more personally favorable, and any sort of potential inquest on why the soldiers had been ordered was slowly choked out by the flow of credits.

The GAR was immediately identified as a threat to the Corporate Alliance. The clone commanders were utterly ruthless in their pursuit of Republic law. Answerable only indirectly to the Senate, the ability of private interests to influence the Army was limited. For now, the troops were being wasted on patrols and showings of the flag in the Core and Colonies, but the minute they ventured into the Outer Rim, it would mean the end of Corporate Alliance freedom. And so, in a gathering of the magnates on Cato Neimoidia, the board determined that secession from the Republic was the only option.

The one victory of the Corporate Alliance was a motion to introduce Jedi oversight of the clones. The Jedi were integrated into the command chain while simultaneously remaining separate: no clone had the authority to command the Jedi, only other Jedi did. Their command structure was answerable to their own commander-in-chief, not the Chancellor. But all of the clones were answerable to Jedi. Padawans usually stayed with their masters, but were high enough ranked to command a battalion.

The clones were organized around small actions, and had been trained that way as well. They had been socialized at the battalion level for their entire lives, and in the last two years began regiment-level exercises. Legion-level exercises were only in the last months of training, and only a handful. It was anticipated that most actions the clones would fight would be done at the platoon or company level, with occasional siege-breaking actions at battalion or regiment level. Legion training was largely a formality.

The Jedi did not uniformly accept their new duty. Many in the Jedi Order protested that violence was not the way of the Force, and that leading armies was a path to the Dark Side. There might have been a schism were it not for the eruption of war in early 993 HRE.

The first month of the war might have been the last, were it not for the total bungling of the war effort by the Jedi. The Corporate Alliance declared independence with hardly anything to back it, and was quickly scrambling to secure its worlds and drag others into their camp. Had the clones been unleashed, they might have quickly paralyzed the nerve centers of the secession. However, their Jedi commanders preached wisdom and deliberate action, and so large-scale withdrawals to secure areas were enacted. Jedi envoys were sent out, mostly to regional capitals since the Corporate Alliance lacked a clear central structure. For weeks, the clones fought scattered delaying actions and withdrew further into the interior of the galaxy.

No one saw it, but the Chancellor had a substantial hand in making sure the war didn't quickly end. It was easy to blame the Jedi when so many had been vocal opponents of the very existence of a Grand Army, and when they held such an ill-defined command position.

The core objective was that the Jedi must be forced into a war they cannot win. The Corporate Alliance had grown militant and finally been pushed into rebellion by Darth Sidious, who had also manipulated Sifo-Dyas into ordering the clone army, and had helped the Jedi shuffle credits through various black projects to pay for it. The war was a product of his demented ministrations, but it was only the push to force the galaxy to follow its true nature, or at least the nature the Sith believed. The Jedi would be forced to fight by their own virtue: for every Jedi that failed to take field leadership, a man like Tarkin would, and those men would fight the war on their terms.

It was a perfect trap. As the conflict developed, more and more of the reluctant members of the Jedi Order were forced to take field commissions, tortured by their own conscience. And simultaneously, they were either forced into fighting ineffectively or flirting with the Dark Side.

The war couldn't be won easily once the Corporate Alliance was allowed to consolidate a bit. The clone troopers were capable of immense offensive power and speed, but they simply lacked staying power. Their numbers were limited. A clone regiment could easily fight through five times their number of battle droids and seize a communications relay, but nothing could follow up on that initiative. Eventually, the Corporate Alliance would marshal a response, and the clones would be forced to withdraw or face destruction. Two organizations stepped in to fill this gap: the Judicials and the Planetary Security Forces.

The Judicials had been the militarized federal police in the galaxy. At one time, service in the Judicials had been considered a great honor, but that time was long past. By 993 HRE, many positions had become de facto or de jure hereditary, and it was seen as more of a social club that occasional got together to show the flag while a Jedi solved all the real problems. They had become increasingly territorial in deployment as Senators tussled over the economic benefits they offered, and the line between Judicials and local militias had blurred. Core Worlds garrisons rarely saw action in the relative peace of the region, and Outer Rim Judicials were often bribed off of interceding in real issues. These are generalizations however, and of course exceptions did exist. In the New Territories, matters were the worst due to the rampant corporate exploitation. In the Tion Cluster, Judicials still maintained a level of credibility and a sense of justice. The Republic Navy was mostly an afterthought, in an age where rebellion was an act of the poor, who could seldom afford navies.

Planetary Security Forces were the militias of individual planets, including ground and naval forces. To limit capacity for interplanetary war, harsh limits were placed on equipment of these militias. Tanks and armored transports were limited in tonnage and number relative to total forces. Naval limits mandated a low ratio of power generation to tonnage and very harshly limited hyperdrive speeds and ranges. Some worlds, such as the fabulously wealthy Kuat, Corellia, and Fondor, compensated by building truly massive warships with hardly enough power to maintain life support under thrust, but these were mostly vanity projects. The ability of planets to project power was effectively nil.

These two forces were slapped together to form a quick-and-dirty military. The Judicials had the right framework, and so the Planetary Security Forces were folded in. Massive retraining efforts were needed, as well as reequipment, but neither were available with such pressing need for manpower at the front. The clones needed support, and so the undertrained police were dragged in while academies were founded across the galaxy to produce the next generation.

Emergency laws flooded through the Senate to provide for the training of a new army. The corruption and ineffectuality had been partly burned away in fear and violence, and the charismatic Chancellor took care of the rest by promising a quick end to the war with sufficient power. The Judicials were given much greater authority in recruitment, though a draft was not yet provided for. Funds were allocated away from public services and towards military spending, and new taxes were raised in all sectors to fund a tremendous governmental expansion. Beneath the hood, hidden away from the Republic democracy, there was another revolution ongoing: reforming Republic Intelligence. Oddly enough, Darth Sidious did not actually have a hand here. The Intelligence Service had long been a tool of Senatorial corruption, but a few men had decided enough was enough and began working to clear out the chaff. This effort was kicked into overdrive with the outbreak of war, but it remained largely unseen to the wider public and even the government.

As the war entered the second year, the vast new Republic military began grinding into action. The doctrine of combined arms warfare came to the forefront after the disaster at Geonosis, the theory of interweaving clone and enlisted units. The clones, however, hated working with the enlisted, and vice versa. The clones viewed the enlisted sapients as unreliable, the enlisted saw the clones as psychopathic. The enlisted were unskilled children by clone trooper standards, and were used accordingly: deliberately walked into ambushes as bait, or thrown against entrenched positions to find weaknesses for clones to exploit. They died in droves, but unlike the clones, there was a virtually unlimited wellspring of replacements.

Equipment shortages plagued both the Judicials and the GAR. The GAR had been drawn up on spreadsheets over the course of years, every eventuality planned for in painstaking detail, and so theoretically equipment production would perfectly match losses. They had not, however, accounted for clone trooper adaptation. In creating the perfect soldier, the stiffly regimented Kaminoans had not realized they were creating supremely adaptable beings. Where the mathematics said they should have died, clones found ways to survive. They found new uses for equipment that had not been intended, they jerry-rigged equipment that the manuals said was broken beyond repair, they foraged enemy equipment in the field. By the time the first reinforcement wave came one year after the initial deployment, the first generation was easily distinct.

The greatest shortage was felt in spacegoing capital ships and in Juggernauts. Both took a long time to construct: the Juggernauts were usually built either in space factories or in antigravity slipways. The shortage of capital ships was being felt by both sides, but the Juggernaut super heavy tank had become incredibly popular at all levels of the GAR command chain for all purposes. Initially conceived as breakthrough troop carriers, they had been adapted to serve as mobile command centers, field hospitals, mobile barracks, communications centers, engineering vehicles, heavy recovery vehicles, and virtually any other task soldiers could think of. Their armor and shielding was impervious to anything the Corporate Alliance could manage until siege cannons like the Speizoc Grandfather Gun were reintroduced. They could roll straight through trench lines and deposit clones in the rear areas, they could provide temporary shelter to men clearing a city, they could drive straight to the front lines to recover wounded, and they were big enough to carry an entire augmented company for a short trip. But they took months to build, and adding manufacturing capacity was expensive and time consuming.

As the Judicials expanded and were lost in combat, their standard of equipment dropped. Before the war, they could be expected to have a blaster rifle, a vest, and a helmet, at minimum. Every company had heavy weapons like repeaters or rocket launchers. However, this changed as the war grew more fierce and the Republic manufacturing base struggled to keep pace. Blast vests first degraded in quality: once they shrugged off pistol fire and could reasonably improve odds of surviving a rifle hit. Then they started struggling to ward off pistol fire, then they started being provided only to officers and noncoms. Not only were the Judicials growing faster than their supply chain, much of that supply chain overlapped with clone trooper armor which was judged to be a higher priority. Within a year, it was not uncommon for whole companies to have no armor for the enlisted men. Within two years, a division with personal armor was rare.

[KraytKing]

1.) No it flies, YOU just don't like. If a story point makes thematic sense but lacks internal logic with the story than the themes need to die in a fire.

Excuse me, where the fuck in Star Wars is it indelibly written that brain chips are a thing? That was a creation of Filoni. I agree with you, but this isn't a core piece of Star Wars logic.

2.) Except that people who "do whatever it takes" and "embodiment of violence" are usually rather incompetent as soldiers, since it means they ignored other more effective options (the few times such "hard decisions" are necessary it's because they or someone else royally shat the bed.) So saying they all must be willing to commit horrific war crimes is unrealistic. There would be a fair number who refuse to do those things.

A competent soldier isn't just good at killing. They're also good at showing mercy.

Now, we may disagree on that point, but it doesn't actually matter. Clones aren't supposed to do a good job, they're supposed to turn the galaxy evil. They are supposed to represent the Waffen SS. The good Jedi are forced to choose between two bad options: the obvious wrong of the degenerated Jedi Order, and the obvious evil of the Clone Army. They lose either way. If they choose to fight alongside the clones and commit evils untold in the name of victory, then they fall to the Dark Side. If they choose the dying, corrupt Jedi Order, then the galaxy grows to hate them for sitting in their ivory tower and refusing to "do what needs to be done." The genius of Palpatine lies in creating a war so horrific and so sudden that there is no time for Jedi like Obi-Wan to think "maybe there is a middle option where we can keep being Jedi."

3.) Because if they're ALL assholes it's basically grimderp at it's finest. Obi Wan has fond memories and is clearly coded as a good (if flawed) person so if every main temple Jedi is just an asshole it doesn't compute. Even in ROTS Yoda was more benevolent but flawed; same with Mace and the others.

Here's my thought on Kenobi: retcon Qui-Gon, or heavily rewrite him. Kenobi is trained by Yoda outside of the Jedi Order, but disobeys Yoda when the Clone War begins and joins the Jedi Order to receive a general's commission and an apprentice. He and Anakin fight for the Republic, but as the galaxy falls into fascism, they split. They become the prototypes for the audience of the two possibilities facing Jedi: Obi-Wan sees that the clones have become the real evil, and leaves the Order. He urges Anakin to follow, but Anakin has become "ends-justify-the-means" and will eventually become Darth Vader because of it.

The way I see it, the Jedi and the Clones actually have a lot in common; in that they are both cults. Both are raised within their cults from infancy or birth, and are totally indoctrinated in the beliefs and worldview of their cults; with little or no outside influences until a certain point. The only substantive difference is in their ethos; the Clones are meant to be soldiers, the Jedi to be Jedi.
--snip--

God fucking damn, this is beautiful. You should be writing this, not me, by God.

As I see it, the Jedi are good because they are sincere and without malice. Their indoctrination makes them so. They genuinely want to follow their mandate, and use the Force and their own knowledge and understanding to help others; and to maintain the Republic by solving its problems. But as Kraytking's narrative shows, they can only deal with immediate, practical problems; not underlying problems. They can't just storm into a corrupt governor's office and arrest him; unless they have a warrant and/or substantial evidence of his wrongdoing. And even if they did, said governor would very likely walk free after a long and expensive trial; because the judicial system couldn't even convict Nute Gunray for invading and occupying a planet.

I would just like to add, there is also a layer of corruption in the Jedi Order. They are true Jedi no longer, they have lost their way. True Jedi may come out of the Order, but that's gotta be part of a specific character arc. The Catholic Church that cakes its walls in gold and finery and rapes children is a far cry from what Jesus said two millennia ago, and such is the difference between Jedi of the Order and true Jedi like Yoda and other rogues.

On the clones a bit: they're sort of like the Fremen in a way. Ahead of a duel, the Fremen don't wish each other good luck, they don't say "may the best man win;" they say "may thy knife chip and shatter." The only goal is survival through victory, the means don't matter. Who cares if you won an honorable victory? The clones are the same way. They just fight. If you have nerve gas, you use nerve gas, obviously. If the enemy is holding hostages, sucks to be the hostages. Enemy hiding in a cave and chemical weapons aren't around? Back up the tank and vent the coolant into the hole, if it kills the enemy then we're all good. No room for prisoners? Douse them in used lubricant and get on with the attack.

Obviously, the Jedi are incompatible with this view. Just as the clones embody victory, the Jedi embody frivolous honor. The good, true Jedi embody wise mercy as Yan points out, but they are rare in the extreme. The Jedi would make the decision Kenobi does in the attack on Ryloth: lead commando forces in a circuitous attack that results in almost total casualties to save a couple dozen hostages. Dark Jedi, or clones left to their own devices, would make the obviously correct military calculation and just blow up the hostages.

I'm getting this odd sense of deja vu

Lol yeah. I wrote a lot of this back in September after that fight, I was sort of hoping for a rematch when I decided to post it. Thanks Darth Yan.

[Darth Yan]

1.) No it flies, YOU just don't like. If a story point makes thematic sense but lacks internal logic with the story than the themes need to die in a fire.

Excuse me, where the fuck in Star Wars is it indelibly written that brain chips are a thing? That was a creation of Filoni. I agree with you, but this isn't a core piece of Star Wars logic.

2.) Except that people who "do whatever it takes" and "embodiment of violence" are usually rather incompetent as soldiers, since it means they ignored other more effective options (the few times such "hard decisions" are necessary it's because they or someone else royally shat the bed.) So saying they all must be willing to commit horrific war crimes is unrealistic. There would be a fair number who refuse to do those things.

A competent soldier isn't just good at killing. They're also good at showing mercy.

Now, we may disagree on that point, but it doesn't actually matter. Clones aren't supposed to do a good job, they're supposed to turn the galaxy evil. They are supposed to represent the Waffen SS. The good Jedi are forced to choose between two bad options: the obvious wrong of the degenerated Jedi Order, and the obvious evil of the Clone Army. They lose either way. If they choose to fight alongside the clones and commit evils untold in the name of victory, then they fall to the Dark Side. If they choose the dying, corrupt Jedi Order, then the galaxy grows to hate them for sitting in their ivory tower and refusing to "do what needs to be done." The genius of Palpatine lies in creating a war so horrific and so sudden that there is no time for Jedi like Obi-Wan to think "maybe there is a middle option where we can keep being Jedi."

3.) Because if they're ALL assholes it's basically grimderp at it's finest. Obi Wan has fond memories and is clearly coded as a good (if flawed) person so if every main temple Jedi is just an asshole it doesn't compute. Even in ROTS Yoda was more benevolent but flawed; same with Mace and the others.

Here's my thought on Kenobi: retcon Qui-Gon, or heavily rewrite him. Kenobi is trained by Yoda outside of the Jedi Order, but disobeys Yoda when the Clone War begins and joins the Jedi Order to receive a general's commission and an apprentice. He and Anakin fight for the Republic, but as the galaxy falls into fascism, they split. They become the prototypes for the audience of the two possibilities facing Jedi: Obi-Wan sees that the clones have become the real evil, and leaves the Order. He urges Anakin to follow, but Anakin has become "ends-justify-the-means" and will eventually become Darth Vader because of it.

The way I see it, the Jedi and the Clones actually have a lot in common; in that they are both cults. Both are raised within their cults from infancy or birth, and are totally indoctrinated in the beliefs and worldview of their cults; with little or no outside influences until a certain point. The only substantive difference is in their ethos; the Clones are meant to be soldiers, the Jedi to be Jedi.
--snip--

God fucking damn, this is beautiful. You should be writing this, not me, by God.

As I see it, the Jedi are good because they are sincere and without malice. Their indoctrination makes them so. They genuinely want to follow their mandate, and use the Force and their own knowledge and understanding to help others; and to maintain the Republic by solving its problems. But as Kraytking's narrative shows, they can only deal with immediate, practical problems; not underlying problems. They can't just storm into a corrupt governor's office and arrest him; unless they have a warrant and/or substantial evidence of his wrongdoing. And even if they did, said governor would very likely walk free after a long and expensive trial; because the judicial system couldn't even convict Nute Gunray for invading and occupying a planet.

I would just like to add, there is also a layer of corruption in the Jedi Order. They are true Jedi no longer, they have lost their way. True Jedi may come out of the Order, but that's gotta be part of a specific character arc. The Catholic Church that cakes its walls in gold and finery and rapes children is a far cry from what Jesus said two millennia ago, and such is the difference between Jedi of the Order and true Jedi like Yoda and other rogues.

On the clones a bit: they're sort of like the Fremen in a way. Ahead of a duel, the Fremen don't wish each other good luck, they don't say "may the best man win;" they say "may thy knife chip and shatter." The only goal is survival through victory, the means don't matter. Who cares if you won an honorable victory? The clones are the same way. They just fight. If you have nerve gas, you use nerve gas, obviously. If the enemy is holding hostages, sucks to be the hostages. Enemy hiding in a cave and chemical weapons aren't around? Back up the tank and vent the coolant into the hole, if it kills the enemy then we're all good. No room for prisoners? Douse them in used lubricant and get on with the attack.

Obviously, the Jedi are incompatible with this view. Just as the clones embody victory, the Jedi embody frivolous honor. The good, true Jedi embody wise mercy as Yan points out, but they are rare in the extreme. The Jedi would make the decision Kenobi does in the attack on Ryloth: lead commando forces in a circuitous attack that results in almost total casualties to save a couple dozen hostages. Dark Jedi, or clones left to their own devices, would make the obviously correct military calculation and just blow up the hostages.

I'm getting this odd sense of deja vu

Lol yeah. I wrote a lot of this back in September after that fight, I was sort of hoping for a rematch when I decided to post it. Thanks Darth Yan.

1.) The only way EVERY clone would turn on their Jedi without exception is if there was some form of brain chip. Conditioning can only go so far with thinking beings and even in legends there's one case where the clones flat out refused to carry out the order. Palpatine is NOT going to want the clones to refuse and unless he uses the brain chips there ARE going to be a lot of refusals.

Ergo from a logical standpoint chips are needed if you want the clones to 100% turn on their jedi. You're thematic ideas defies basic storytelling logic and thus need to die in a fire.

2.) Except Palpatine NEEDS competent soldiers otherwise his droid proxies will win and he can't have that. You're operating under the delusion that a skilled soldier only cares about victory at all cost and will cheerfully use things like nerve gas and bioweapons purely because it's expedient, or kill hostages without any remorse because the alternative MIGHT risk his soldiers lives. In reality even soldiers who are killing machines will a.) know when to hold back and apply mercy b.) try to consider every available option and only use the "hard option" if there are no other alternatives and c.) feel actual remorse if they do have to resort to such awful methods.

In addition being a soldier means being willing to die to save civilians, so that means that yes a lot of clones WOULD Actually be willing to accept the death of clones if meant innocents lived.

While warcrimes are going to happen regardless you embellish how common those things are because you stupidly believe warcrimes are an effective way of fighting war.

3.) In the situation you outline killing the hostages is NOT obviously the militarily correct method, simply because it has it's own long term consequences (giving the Separatists a PR victory) and doesn't even necessarily have to result in casualties to your side. You're falling into the "hard man making hard decisions while hard" trap. In reality most of these decisions aren't hard at all, just expedient. The REAL hard decision would be risking your soldiers to save the hostages and taking the chance it will go off with few casualties.

The people who say those are "obviously the correct choice" are usually just lunatics who masturbate at the thought of people dying.

[Gandalf]

Yan, for soldiers to commit atrocities, you don't need 100% compliance. Even in My Lai, not everyone went along with it. But enough American soldiers did to make it one of the Vietnam conflict's darkest moments.

[Darth Yan]

True, but KraytKing seems to want ALL the clones to be violently committing atrocities and enjoy doing it. Realistically there'd be clones who wouldn't, and someone as egomaniacal as Palpatine isn't going to want anyone to dissent or disagree

[KraytKing]

1.) The only way EVERY clone would turn on their Jedi without exception is if there was some form of brain chip. Conditioning can only go so far with thinking beings and even in legends there's one case where the clones flat out refused to carry out the order. Palpatine is NOT going to want the clones to refuse and unless he uses the brain chips there ARE going to be a lot of refusals.

Ergo from a logical standpoint chips are needed if you want the clones to 100% turn on their jedi. You're thematic ideas defies basic storytelling logic and thus need to die in a fire.

This is a HUGE leap of logic and predicated on an incorrect assumption. You're suckered in on the brain chips being the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY for the Jedi Purge to possibly occur, and I really can't discern why. The Jedi Order is a chain of command outside the ordinary chain of command, not answerable to the commander in chief OR the state. Establishing them as the "other" has already been done, by their own doctrine, for centuries. From a military perspective, they are the PERFECT tool for a military coup: each one is powerful, they have their own communications network, they can CONTROL YOUR GOD DAMN MIND, they are present at all military headquarters AND the political center of the galaxy, and (for a while at least) they are well loved by the general population. It must be in the back of every clone's mind "if they tried to seize power, could we stop them?" Palpatine merely has to push that fear a little. He claims they're trying to seize power, and the clones react in fear.

It also presents us with a deliciously tragic moral quandary: follow orders or follow friendships? Juubi Karakuchi did an excellent job explaining why they could only choose to follow orders: doing otherwise violates everything they've been taught since they decanted. Of course, if the clones behave as a monolith, then the story becomes less organic and less applicable to real life; certainly not 100% of the clones will clinically execute their leadership. Some will; some will delight in executing their hated mystic overlords; some will struggle internally but ultimately obey their training, and be tortured by it eternally; and some will refuse, reject everything they've ever known. This last group will prove that the rest DID have a choice, and chose wrong.



The rest of what you said is pretty well covered by this, which you ignored:

Now, we may disagree on that point, but it doesn't actually matter. Clones aren't supposed to do a good job, they're supposed to turn the galaxy evil. They are supposed to represent the Waffen SS. The good Jedi are forced to choose between two bad options: the obvious wrong of the degenerated Jedi Order, and the obvious evil of the Clone Army. They lose either way. If they choose to fight alongside the clones and commit evils untold in the name of victory, then they fall to the Dark Side. If they choose the dying, corrupt Jedi Order, then the galaxy grows to hate them for sitting in their ivory tower and refusing to "do what needs to be done." The genius of Palpatine lies in creating a war so horrific and so sudden that there is no time for Jedi like Obi-Wan to think "maybe there is a middle option where we can keep being Jedi."

But I like arguing with you, so I'll break it down further.

2.) Except Palpatine NEEDS competent soldiers otherwise his droid proxies will win and he can't have that.

Nonsense. He invented the droid threat. They're as much a threat as he needs them to be. If he wants the clones to fight inefficiently, then the droids will fight even less efficiently.

You're operating under the delusion that a skilled soldier only cares about victory at all cost and will cheerfully use things like nerve gas and bioweapons purely because it's expedient, or kill hostages without any remorse because the alternative MIGHT risk his soldiers lives.

Soldiers do that all the time. We DID use gas weapons in WWI, then used them again even after we banned them on weak countries. We did use napalm and Agent Orange with wild abandon, and we did massacre prisoners, hostages, and just about anyone else when we felt like it. We meaning collective humanity. Those were soldiers who made those decisions.

In reality even soldiers who are killing machines will a.) know when to hold back and apply mercy b.) try to consider every available option and only use the "hard option" if there are no other alternatives and c.) feel actual remorse if they do have to resort to such awful methods.

In addition being a soldier means being willing to die to save civilians, so that means that yes a lot of clones WOULD Actually be willing to accept the death of clones if meant innocents lived.

While warcrimes are going to happen regardless you embellish how common those things are because you stupidly believe warcrimes are an effective way of fighting war.

3.) In the situation you outline killing the hostages is NOT obviously the militarily correct method, simply because it has it's own long term consequences (giving the Separatists a PR victory) and doesn't even necessarily have to result in casualties to your side. You're falling into the "hard man making hard decisions while hard" trap. In reality most of these decisions aren't hard at all, just expedient. The REAL hard decision would be risking your soldiers to save the hostages and taking the chance it will go off with few casualties.

The people who say those are "obviously the correct choice" are usually just lunatics who masturbate at the thought of people dying.

This is correct, essentially. War crimes kill the enemy, but either result in retaliation or deep-seated hatred that will never subside during occupation. This is the point. The Clone Wars aren't about winning a war effectively, they're about creating an enemy. The droids aren't an enemy, they're a means to an end. A droid army drums up fear about droids, and why would the Emperor want that? Droids are useful and they don't fight back, best not stir the pot there. No, what he needs are aliens and Rimmers. Those are the enemies that allow Palpatine to take control of a terrified Core and institute Human High Culture. The droids give the clones an excuse to go stomp around the Outer Rim and fuck everything up by doing exactly what you outline. That creates hatred, it provokes revolt, it creates a true enemy that the galaxy needs fascism to solve.

(obviously they don't actually need fascism to solve it, I'm not tooting a fascist horn here. But the Emperor will convince them he is the only solution, as fascist strongmen do)

It's essentially exactly what America and everyone else does in the Middle East all the God damn time. They don't try and win the war, they just piss everyone off to keep the sweet arms contracts flowing.