StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Yeah I know it's another one of the threads but the question remains. ROTJ isn't a BAD film but it does have rough patches. Luke's plan to save Han is overly elaborate, and the whole Point of View thing Obi Wan just unwittingly gives the idea that lying is okay.

Three ground rules
1.) Vader IS Anakin
2.) Vader redeems himself by killing Palpatine. The redemption is one of the best scenes in cinema.
3.) Luke doesn't just fall to the dark side at the end.

Change Obi-Wan's dialogue to "Anakin was just a child when I met him, but I was amazed at how well he could drive a pod racer. Or so I heard. I didn't actually see it myself, but training him wasn't really my idea either."

Rescue of Han -
#1 - Still send R2 and 3P0. However, show R2 can remove restraining bolts on him, and then getting into Jabba's computers. Possible show graphics related to the rest of the subplot.
#2 - Up the rescue attempt on Han. It's a squad of bounty hunters that bring in Chewie. During the unthawing, they standard guard, and the 'Jabba suspected all along revival' sees the rest of squad killed, and leia captured.
#3 - Luke still shows up to rescue them, but has a Lightsaber on him that he's disarmed up. He calls it to him in the throne room before calling the blaster. The lightsaber however, shorts out, and when he lands in the rancor pit, he finds a device attached to it. (Jabba noted in the novels he'd been killing Jedi for a long time....)
#4 - No change to the Sarlac scence, except maybe have Luke using the Force offensively (i.e Force push someone into the pit, Force pull people off the barrage)

Obi-wan point of view -
Really, it depends on how you want to handle Anakin's fall in Revenge of the Sith. If that movie is being unchanged, you can justify it by 'I felt his turn to the Dark Side, after my troops tried to kill me. The rage that was in your fathers heart grew, and with each act, each step in his conversion, I felt a little bit of my brothers soul die. When we faced each other, there was still enough left to save, until... Luke, Darth Vader hurt your mother, and that's something I believed that Anakin could never do. I suppose, in my grief, I rationalized things that Vader had killed Anakin as well. Yoda chided me about it when he found out, and we were going to tell you everything after you completed your training. I suppose, I need to tell you now....

(And then you can recycle this to be the opening of Phantom Menace)

Endor -
A bit of dialogue from Threepio, after his telling the story of the rebellion;
"Chief Logray apologizes for the ambush. The Empire has been hunting and killing them for some time now. Probably to keep the generator secure."

With the whole Anakin to Vader thing, you could frame it as a traumatic reaction from Obi Wan, who couldn't handle what had happened to his beloved apprentice. He saw the galaxy burn because he failed to keep his charge on the straight and narrow.

Galvatron wrote: ↑2022-03-05 05:43pm Change Obi-Wan's dialogue to "Anakin was just a child when I met him, but I was amazed at how well he could drive a pod racer. Or so I heard. I didn't actually see it myself, but training him wasn't really my idea either."

"Also a few days later he blew up a Trade Federation ship. I didn't see that either, but word got around. That kid could really spin."

Ditch the second Death Star and turn Coruscant into a Starkiller-like superweapon.

Ditch Fett's death and incorporate him into the rebels' infiltration plan. Instead of an Imperial shuttle, they use Fett and Slave One to smuggle the strike team to the surface under the pretense of delivering Luke to Vader.

Would the strike team even fit on Slave One?

Because apparently one needs to have Han back, the first but is Han's rescue, but not on Tattooine. Jabba has some sort of alien nightclub on the ground of some sort of Blade Runner looking planet. The heroes go there because they are trying to get some intel about the new superweapon being built in orbit of Coruscant. Fight breaks out, they get Han back and defrost him. Unlike taking up the whole first act, it's more like a Bond opening.

Luke goes back to Yoda for some final exposition. Yoda and the ghost of Obi Wan tell him about how (like Luke), Anakin was impatient when he felt he was in the right. The Emperor used that, and talked Vader into turning on the Jedi, in exchange for being allowed to do whatever he wanted. They explain that this is what allowed this Emperor to become so powerful, in that he was very much the Michael Corleone to previous Emperors who were more Vito shaped. The idea of a line of Emperor come from one of the early novels, and I quite like it.

As Luke gets the plot setup, Leia and Threepio go to do diplomacy, as does Han, who works in a post-Jabba part of the underworld taking advantage of the turmoil to recruit various terrible people. The Rebellion has soldiers, but this will need people of all stripes to make it work, and so on.

I'll post up the act three later.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why Jabba needs to be in it when they could just intercept Fett and rescue Han that way. Does Jabba deserve to die because one of his employees stiffed him on a debt for over three years?

Batman wrote: ↑2022-03-06 02:57pm Would the strike team even fit on Slave One?

I don't see why not. Based on what we see of it in The Mandalorian, the Slave One looks plenty roomy.

Galvatron wrote: ↑2022-03-06 03:17pm Honestly, I'm not even sure why Jabba needs to be in it when they could just intercept Fett and rescue Han that way. Does Jabba deserve to die because one of his employees stiffed him on a debt for over three years?

An idea I had was that he would also periodically deal with the Empire, which was how be became so powerful. Because a lot of Jabba's associates are criminals, this was a betrayal of their whole little criminal society.

Also, a Hutt is just a cool word for a crime lord. Not a race.

It'd be interesting if Jabba is only a "crime lord" insofar as his businesses are illegal under Imperial law, but were fully legal during the Old Republic. After all, it was an Imperial cruiser that stopped Han and forced him to jettison his cargo of spice.

That would be something if Jabba became a powerful lord because he was moving freight that was not just illegal under the Empire, but also suddenly hard to get. The more the Empire tightens its grip, the more things slip through their fingers to Jabba.

He mediated deals to get various little luxuries to people around the galaxy, occasionally selling out a compatriot to gain favour where needed. Then when Han fucks over a complex set of deals by dropping a load, Jabba's pride demands that Han be an example.

I had this particular outline a while back (with modifications).

Act I: We get the Jabba's palace infiltration. Luke, Lando, Chewbacca and Leia try to just free Han by negotiating but Jabba as it turns out was paid off by the Empire to try and kill them all instead. However because Jabba is incredibly arrogant he decides to throw Luke Lando, Han and Chewie into the arena to die (While Keeping Leia as a trophy). Jabba unleashes the Rancor (which is MUCH more massive here than it is in the original movie) but Luke uses the force to tame the Rancor and make it friendly, prompting a FURIOUS Jabba to order all his men (even his bodyguard) into the arena to kill them. Luke reveals that he's secretly hidden his lightsaber in R2 and calls on it, using it to go postal on Jabba's goons alongside Chewie, Lando and the Rancor. Boba Felt also gets involved and after a fight tries to kill Luke with his missile, but Luke deflects it back at him, which blows him up. Leia meanwhile seizes the chance to strangle Jabba to death with her chain. Bib Fortuna, who has long suffered at Jabba's hand, stands by and watches. At this point the fighting stops, and the heroes are able to negotiate with Bib Fortuna to not only release them, but throw in with the Alliance, adding Jabba's resources to the rebel cause.

Luke returns to Dagobah for answers regarding Vader's claims. Yoda admits the truth, and Luke is somewhat hurt by this. They get into an argument (with Yoda making the comment that such behavior was Anakin's problem as well). Yoda dies during the argument and Luke feels ashamed. Obi Wan appears and acknowledges that what they did was shitty and apologizes, giving context as to why they did it (shame, a fear that Luke would hold back, or that he wasn't ready to handle the knowledge). Obi Wan explains that Anakin was born a slave and rescued during the clone wars by the Jedi; Vader's shitty life left him deeply terrified of loss and believing that there needed to be more justice. The Clone Wars are described as a brutal series of wars that saw the Republic decline, and Vader was caught right in the middle.

Luke accepts the explanation, but insists that Vader can still be redeemed. Obi Wan is skeptical, with Obi Wan saying that he tried and failed to redeem him. He also mentions that for all intents and purposes Luke is their last hope; we get the Leia reveal and Luke is appropriately shocked (and even somewhat uncomfortable at the kiss).

Act 2: Some time has passed, and the Rebels get the briefing about the second death star above Kashyyyk (Wookies are cooler and it gives Chewie something to ya know actually do). We get them infiltrating pass the Tydirium. As all of this is going on Vader has been displaying more internal turmoil; turns out that when Luke chose death over Vader's offer....it badly rattled him. For the first time in decades he's wondering if he made the right decision all those years ago. Palpatine notices, and makes a comment about it (Vader has a rare showing of rage at this point. Not cold fury, genuine outburst rage.) We get the speeder bike chases, and it's here that Chewbacca makes himself useful by negotiating with the Wookie leader Tarfful. The rebels are able to persuade the Wookies to aid them in their assault on the Generator. Luke reveals what he was told to Leia; unlike the movie Leia is much more shocked, and even somewhat grossed out over the kiss (because we need to shut down the perverts). Luke surrenders himself, and Vader meets Luke (it's the first time since Bespin they've been in the same area.) Luke tries to reason with Vader, and Vader is actually effected, but still brings Luke to Palpatine. Leia and Han have sex that night.

Act 3: Both factions make their move; Luke is brought before the Emperor, who tries to sway Luke with arguments about how the Republic was a broken and corrupt institution. He was just putting it out of its misery. Luke counters by pointing out the Empire's own corruption and murderous overkill. Palpatine is rather annoyed by how well Luke's holding his own in the debate, but at this point he also springs the news of the trap. The Death Star super laser is quite operational, and the Imperial Fleet drops out of hyperspace to attack the rebel fleet (which has just arrived.) And for added dickery, he orders Jerjerrod to fire on Kashyyyk if the Rebels DO happen to come out on top. Luke swings for Palpatine, Vader blocks and battle is joined.

The Wookies and Rebel team move on the installation, and it's an intense battle. The wookies are shown to be fierce, letting loose years of pent up frustration and rage. We also get the battle in the Installation; during the battle the timers for the explosives are damaged. Han (who is mortally wounded during the fight), completes his arc of heroism and sacrifices his life to trigger the bombs and take out the generator. The fleet manages to endure the Death Star's super laser and the imperial fleet.

Luke and Vader duel. Unlike the original (where Palpy interjects and thus gets Luke to pull back) Luke pulls back on his own. He even tries to appeal to the man Anakin once was. Despite the circumstances, he's reasonably calm. Likewise, Vader's own internal turmoil makes it easier for Luke to gain the advantage. Eventually we get the scene of Vader realizing Leia is Luke's sister, and Luke hulks out and beats the shit out of him. As he stands over, the Emperor says "Good, Good....." Luke hears this and realizes what he's doing. He looks down and further understands....so he throws the sword aside. Palpatine is furious and decides to start torturing him, determined to make him suffer. Luke calls out to Vader...and Vader finally makes the right choice, hurling Sidious to his doom as he screams in rage and for the first time in his life fear.

As Luke and Vader try to leave, the Bunker explodes and the rebels make their run. Vader dies in Luke's arms, and Luke flees in Palpatine's shuttle.

The ending is bittersweet; they've won, but Han's dead and the road to victory isn't complete yet. But it's a start.

Note: I was also planning to have Obi Wan Comment that Luke was able to continue his training on his own after Hoth. Luke was able to find some old manuals from the Jedi, and built a lightsaber and taught himself more lightsaber techniques. Luke also mentions that when he and Vader telepathically communicated in ESB (right before they jumped) he sensed a small flicker of regret within him, and this is why he thinks there's still good in him. Deep within the monster he saw a small but of light.

Is all that exposition really necessary?

Maybe maybe not. Some fans are going to wonder.

I was also planning to have it be revealed that the Empire asked Jabba to try and kill Luke largely as a test; Palpatine wanted to see if Luke was up to snuff and his defeating Jabba proved he passed.

To add to my first two acts above. Act three is the assault on Coruscant, and the Imperial Palace.

Luke heads to Coruscant in disguise as a commoner, Jedi Mind tricking his way past a few guards, until he meets some strong minded guards. They work out who he is and drag him to the Imperial Court so they could get a cool promotion or something, where there's the Emperor and his various cronies. The Emperor, realising Luke's potential value; a place high up in the Empire where he can help guide the galaxy, better living, and such, all coming at the cost of fealty to the regime. I won't go beat for beat, but on the ground the Emperor says that resisting the Empire is useless and it's best to get on board, while above, the Rebel attack on the Death Star shows that it isn't. As the Death Star explodes, the Emperor's cronies start turning on the Emperor. The Emperor calls his bodyguards in to execute the traitors. Vader realises how fucked up it is and briefly rights alongside Luke before force choking the Emperor, and then dying himself. The Emperor dies at the hands of the guy who made him what he was, watching the apparatus he built to keep his control burning.

Popular revolution occurs.

It's vague, but it'll be something until the next one of these threads.

Palpatine being Sith kinda works though. The Dark side makes you ambitious so Vader's going to want to sit in the big chair while also wielding power; and if Palpatine has darksiders (he knows there's a disturbance when he contacts Vader) than why haven't THEY turned on him?

Occam's razor is such that Palpatine having the raw power to beat any potential upstart into submission makes the most logical sense

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-03-06 10:02pm Palpatine being Sith kinda works though. The Dark side makes you ambitious so Vader's going to want to sit in the big chair while also wielding power; and if Palpatine has darksiders (he knows there's a disturbance when he contacts Vader) than why haven't THEY turned on him?

Ambition not tempered with wisdom gets people in trouble in a dictatorship. Anyone powerful enough to get to the Imperial court would also be smart enough to know that they couldn't really replace the Emperor. It's one thing to be able to kill him, it's another to replace him. They all do well enough under the Empire that destroying it is in nobody's interest.

Occam's razor is such that Palpatine having the raw power to beat any potential upstart into submission makes the most logical sense

Nah.

I described my fantasy re-write for ROTJ here:

In order:

1) The plan to rescue Han makes no sense whatsoever. Boba Fett doesn't recognize Lando when they're maybe ten feet apart because Lando is wearing a hat.

When they introduced Lando for TESB, they made a big deal about what an important character he was going to be. In ROTJ he was Wedge +1. I thought it would have been cool to have him make amends by not only rescuing Han, but by convincing outlaws, smugglers, gangsters, etc to join the Rebellion, since the Empire was now muscling in on crooks as well as decent folk. Since we're trying to keep the movie at a little over two hours, we can combine Han's rescue with Lando's pitch to the outlaws in one scene: Lando explains what the Empire did to Bespin, what they'll do others who buck the system, and that the only option left is armed resistance. Jabba balks, tries to kill them (or threatens to hand them all over to the Empire) and is promptly killed by his own henchmen. The Rebellion has now recruited a fleet of privateers.

I wanted some kind of real reconciliation between Han and Lando, and I got thirty minutes of shitty muppets.

2) I thought the little bat-like creature at Mos Eisely (the one that chirps and stands on its tip-toes to get its drink at the bar) would have been better as the template for the Ewoks. It's still kinda cute, but in a grotesque way. Oh, and they have excellent night vision and raid the stormtroopers in the dark...

3) Vader was always Luke's father in one way or another. Don't let paranoid schmucks who have never heard of the creative process tell you otherwise.

4) After our heroes make a daring escape through a squadron of Imperial ships sent to follow them to Tattooine, Luke and Leia would go to Dagobah and Luke would hear the bitter truth, and Leia would find out that she was the Other Yoda was talking about. Yoda dies. Luke & Leia rejoin the others with the fleet.

5) The space battle would be expanded to include maneuvers that make some kind of logical sense. Those privateers play a major role in breaking the Imperial Fleet's line, allowing the Rebels to maneuver so that the Death Star ends up blowing away one of its own ships. The Imperial staff starts getting nervous...

Palpatine gets bodyslammed, Vader dies, Death Star 2 goes boom and so on and so forth.

One change I would make is to have Peter Suschitzky photograph ROTJ instead of Alan Hume. Hume's photography was really pedestrian (his cinematography in Octopussy, which came out the same year, was more interesting than his work on ROTJ), while Suschitzky's camerawork in TESB is the best of any film in the series.

I'd also deal more squarely with Harrison Ford and his agent. In the recent Kazanjian biography, the producer brags about getting Ford to agree to do Jedi and working out the deal with the agent's son (who had power of attorney). Apparently, Ford wasn't thrilled with his contract, nor was he pleased with Solo getting shortchanged in the story -and the results show up on screen: Ford really phoned it in.

Other than that, I'd just cut back on the muppets.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2022-03-06 10:30pm

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-03-06 10:02pm Palpatine being Sith kinda works though. The Dark side makes you ambitious so Vader's going to want to sit in the big chair while also wielding power; and if Palpatine has darksiders (he knows there's a disturbance when he contacts Vader) than why haven't THEY turned on him?

Ambition not tempered with wisdom gets people in trouble in a dictatorship. Anyone powerful enough to get to the Imperial court would also be smart enough to know that they couldn't really replace the Emperor. It's one thing to be able to kill him, it's another to replace him. They all do well enough under the Empire that destroying it is in nobody's interest.

Occam's razor is such that Palpatine having the raw power to beat any potential upstart into submission makes the most logical sense

Nah.

1.) You're missing the point. The Dark side is SO potent at making people ambitious that unless there's something strong enough to beat them into submission they WILL try regardless of whether it's a good time simply because the power is THAT intoxicating. Vader isn't really going to consider whether or not he can replace the Emperor, nor are any Dark Jedi. THAT'S how much the dark side twists you into pursuing power. You kinda missed the biggest point about the Dark Side; at some point they WILL pursue power regardless of how much sense it makes (that's one of the reasons the Sith kept loosing; they were so focused on getting power they fucked themselves over.) Palpatine being so utterly powerful that even the most ambitious will stay their hand makes more sense.

So it actually makes perfect sense. Vader is never going to be satisfied with a functionary position; he's going to want the big seat to.

2.) You're not really giving any evidence to back up your reason so much as childishly saying "because I said so."

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-03-07 12:52am2.) You're not really giving any evidence to back up your reason so much as childishly saying "because I said so."

What else does he need to say? This isn't a debate thread. If he likes his ideas and he's not violating any of the ground rules you imposed, what do you care?

Because in general Gandalf is rather smug and refuses to act in good faith; him going "nah" after I posted a detailed reason just comes off as him being as smug and obnoxious as possible.

Declaring "Occam's Razor" and alluding to an unelaborated upon logic does not a detailed reason make, Crybaby Pisspants.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-03-07 12:52am 1.) You're missing the point. The Dark side is SO potent at making people ambitious that unless there's something strong enough to beat them into submission they WILL try regardless of whether it's a good time simply because the power is THAT intoxicating. Vader isn't really going to consider whether or not he can replace the Emperor, nor are any Dark Jedi. THAT'S how much the dark side twists you into pursuing power. You kinda missed the biggest point about the Dark Side; at some point they WILL pursue power regardless of how much sense it makes (that's one of the reasons the Sith kept loosing; they were so focused on getting power they fucked themselves over.) Palpatine being so utterly powerful that even the most ambitious will stay their hand makes more sense.

So it actually makes perfect sense. Vader is never going to be satisfied with a functionary position; he's going to want the big seat to.

Citations needed.