More proof the Empire is seriously undermilitarized...

[MKSheppard]

Rebel Sourcebook Chapter Six, Ground combat states:

A Comparison of Alliance and Imperial Forces

"As you can see, by the numbers, the picture is pretty bleak. The Empire's forces outnumber the Alliance forces by a factor of almost 30 to one in raw manpower, by better than 12 to one in equipment, and by about 15 to one in warships and transports. The numbers are equally grim when you compare weapons research, intelligence, and supplies."

The man doing this briefing is none other than General Crix Madine,
and we can consider him a reliable source on such matters, since
according to the official Star Wars site HERE it states:

Madine, a Corellian, was formerly the leader of the Storm Commandos, an elite Imperial army unit. When their missions became increasingly objectionable, Madine abandoned a promising military career to fight for the Alliance.

So we can be reasonably sure that this projection is accurate. This is
another block of evidence supporting Saxton's assessment that the
Empire is seriously undermilitarized, which can be found somewhere on his
technical commentaries, which you can access HERE.

[Captain tycho]

Not really surprising. The Empire viewed the Alliance as a minor threat, simply a thorn in it's side.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I refuse to believe it. Its WEG bullshit. There's simply no fucking way that there was that much parody. None. There's some trick, some semantics we're ignoring, something. Its bullshit. Impossible.

[MKSheppard]

I refuse to believe it. Its WEG bullshit. There's simply no fucking way that there was that much parody. None. There's some trick, some semantics we're ignoring, something. Its bullshit. Impossible.

IP, in the Sourcebook, it states that there are several Rebel worlds
that are devoted ENTIRELY to manufacturing materiel and equipment
for the Rebellion. This isn't a bunch of rag-tag guerillas in the spacelanes
ala pirate gangs or the FARC in Colombia, it is a well-equipped, well-armed
rebel movement that has serious firepower to back it up...

Think BIG people...

I think the problem is, not in making the stuff, but getting it to
where you want it to, without attracting undue Imperial attention.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I refuse to believe it. Its WEG bullshit. There's simply no fucking way that there was that much parody. None. There's some trick, some semantics we're ignoring, something. Its bullshit. Impossible.

IP, in the Sourcebook, it states that there are several Rebel worlds
that are devoted ENTIRELY to manufacturing materiel and equipment
for the Rebellion. This isn't a bunch of rag-tag guerillas in the spacelanes
ala pirate gangs or the FARC in Colombia, it is a well-equipped, well-armed
rebel movement that has serious firepower to back it up...

Think BIG people...

I think the problem is, not in making the stuff, but getting it to
where you want it to, without attracting undue Imperial attention.

I'm not denying that.

Even given the scale you're talking about you're still talking compartively a Al Queda vs. U.S. scale.

The Empire should outclass the Alliance by factors of thousands.

[MKSheppard]

Even given the scale you're talking about you're still talking compartively a Al Queda vs. U.S. scale.

The Empire should outclass the Alliance by factors of thousands.

Actually, more like the scale of US vs Germany. Remember, the Alliance
has a very big manufacturing base, seeing as the mon calamari are
capable of turning out one MC-80 for the alliance every six months. Al
Quaeda can't produce it's own F-15s or Nimitz CVNs

[Alyeska]

This is from WEG. WEG is quite well known for being WRONG. Furthermore the EU novels have higher standing then WEG and multiple EU novels clearly establish that the New Republic and the Rebel Alliance had significantly fewer assets. The ONLY way I can believe the quote is if this is in regards to AFTER Endor when the Empire was splintering from within.

[MKSheppard]

The ONLY way I can believe the quote is if this is in regards to AFTER Endor when the Empire was splintering from within.

There's another way. Delete the Warships comment and you can probably
rationalize it away as referring to GROUND TROOPS alone...

[Alyeska]

The ONLY way I can believe the quote is if this is in regards to AFTER Endor when the Empire was splintering from within.

There's another way. Delete the Warships comment and you can probably
rationalize it away as referring to GROUND TROOPS alone...

That I can accept. The Empire relied on its starship superiority to defeat its enemies. When it couldn't use orbital weapons to beat its enemies into submission, they would use *elite* volunteer ground troops.

[MKSheppard]

That I can accept. The Empire relied on its starship superiority to defeat its enemies. When it couldn't use orbital weapons to beat its enemies into submission, they would use *elite* volunteer ground troops.

And besides, the commentary is occuring in the GROUND COMBAT
chapter of the RSB, so that's more than likely....

[Alyeska]

That I can accept. The Empire relied on its starship superiority to defeat its enemies. When it couldn't use orbital weapons to beat its enemies into submission, they would use *elite* volunteer ground troops.

And besides, the commentary is occuring in the GROUND COMBAT
chapter of the RSB, so that's more than likely....

IIRC isn't Crix Madine the Alliance ground commander as well? If that is the case, it does explain things much better. I wonder if they were referring to water based navies...

[Thirdfain]

Why is it so hard to believe that the Rebellion is a large, well funded and powerful organization? Obviously, they were powerful enough that the Empire didn't just fly in and wipe Mon Calamari (and any other Mon Cal colonies out there) off the map. Don't give me this "The Empire Didn't Think it was Important" Bullshit. The Mon Calamari were a multiplanet star-nation before the Empire arrived, and were a major source of slaves and materials. Why not cut off the Rebellion's only source of supercapital warships? It's not like the Imperials didn't know the Rebels were there...

[Kuja]

Why is it so hard to believe that the Rebellion is a large, well funded and powerful organization? Obviously, they were powerful enough that the Empire didn't just fly in and wipe Mon Calamari (and any other Mon Cal colonies out there) off the map. Don't give me this "The Empire Didn't Think it was Important" Bullshit. The Mon Calamari were a multiplanet star-nation before the Empire arrived, and were a major source of slaves and materials. Why not cut off the Rebellion's only source of supercapital warships? It's not like the Imperials didn't know the Rebels were there...

Agreed. I think the Rebellion is larger than most people are willing to give it credit for. The fact that the Mon Cals were outfitting ships ~3 miles long (Home One) to engage ISDs, and SUCCEEDED, should be a clue.

The reason the Rebels sent such small forces to engage DS1 and DS2 were probably because of a lack of time (they were rushed both times) and because much of their fleet would be tied down defending planets like MC.

[Alyeska]

Why is it so hard to believe that the Rebellion is a large, well funded and powerful organization? Obviously, they were powerful enough that the Empire didn't just fly in and wipe Mon Calamari (and any other Mon Cal colonies out there) off the map. Don't give me this "The Empire Didn't Think it was Important" Bullshit. The Mon Calamari were a multiplanet star-nation before the Empire arrived, and were a major source of slaves and materials. Why not cut off the Rebellion's only source of supercapital warships? It's not like the Imperials didn't know the Rebels were there...

Because if that quote is to be believed, the Rebellion would have to have had over a million capitalships. The EU flatly denies this ever happened. At best the EU says the New Republic built up fleets of several thousand capitalships and relied in the internal Imperial Conflict to tear the Empire apart. That is part of the reason there were maybe a dozen cruisers at Endor (the bulk of the Rebel fleet) while the Empire had the Death Squadron and the local ISD sector fleet with nothing else.

[Thirdfain]

The EU says a LOT of stuff. The EU says that turbolasers are in fact lasers, and the bolts you see are a kind of tracer. The EU says the Empire has access to impenetrable armour, which allows a small fighter-sized craft to literally fly through a star destroyer- but does not use this amrour on their regular warships. The EU has said a squadron of fighters can crush an ISd with torpedo volleys. The EU spends a LOT of time being wrong.

I believe the reason the Rebel main base was located on a lightly-defended world was because of the simple fact that the Empire has enough power to take any of the more heavily defended Rebel worlds, albeit at huge cost. If the Imperium had an obvious target, the destruction of which would lead the collapse of the rebellion, they would have struck with huge force, taken massive casualties, but it would be worth it to defeat the Rebel leadership. It was safer to place their command and control center on an out of the way world the Empire couldn't strike against ith extreme force. Presumably, there are other Rebel worlds, worlds containing heavy industry, which are well defended enough to make an Imperial strike very costly.

AS for the battle of 2cnde Death Star, who is to say they didn't have more than just a few dozen cruisers? Why is it assumed that the tiny fleet we see leaping into Sullust is the only squadron present?

Fuck the Deathstar, there is no way a dozen MC80s with perhaps 30 assorted escorts could take on the hundred or so ISDs we saw pitted against them . There must have been Rebel reinforcements after the initial wave. It makes sense that an organiztion like the Rebel Alliance would use more than one staging point for their attacking fleet- The fleet at Sullust may have been only one of many sent into the attack, and perhaps the only one Imperial intelligence found.

If there were only a dozen Rebel warships in the fleet that fragged an entire sector fleet, Death Squadron, and a Death Star, I will eat my hat.

[Alyeska]

The EU says a LOT of stuff. The EU says that turbolasers are in fact lasers, and the bolts you see are a kind of tracer. The EU says the Empire has access to impenetrable armour, which allows a small fighter-sized craft to literally fly through a star destroyer- but does not use this amrour on their regular warships. The EU has said a squadron of fighters can crush an ISd with torpedo volleys. The EU spends a LOT of time being wrong.

I believe the reason the Rebel main base was located on a lightly-defended world was because of the simple fact that the Empire has enough power to take any of the more heavily defended Rebel worlds, albeit at huge cost. If the Imperium had an obvious target, the destruction of which would lead the collapse of the rebellion, they would have struck with huge force, taken massive casualties, but it would be worth it to defeat the Rebel leadership. It was safer to place their command and control center on an out of the way world the Empire couldn't strike against ith extreme force. Presumably, there are other Rebel worlds, worlds containing heavy industry, which are well defended enough to make an Imperial strike very costly.

AS for the battle of 2cnde Death Star, who is to say they didn't have more than just a few dozen cruisers? Why is it assumed that the tiny fleet we see leaping into Sullust is the only squadron present?

Fuck the Deathstar, there is no way a dozen MC80s with perhaps 30 assorted escorts could take on the hundred or so ISDs we saw pitted against them . There must have been Rebel reinforcements after the initial wave. It makes sense that an organiztion like the Rebel Alliance would use more than one staging point for their attacking fleet- The fleet at Sullust may have been only one of many sent into the attack, and perhaps the only one Imperial intelligence found.

If there were only a dozen Rebel warships in the fleet that fragged an entire sector fleet, Death Squadron, and a Death Star, I will eat my hat.

Incorrect. We know for a fact the Rebels had aproximately 1 dozen cruisers with several assorted escorts. We know the Death Squadron had aproximately 24 ISDs with the Secot Fleet providing another 24. Thats basicaly 50 ISDs and an SSD against the Rebels. We already know the Empire should have won that. It was the Emporers orders and the tactical stupidity of the Empire that lost Endor. Hell, the Empire should have had enough fighters alone to take down the Rebel fleet. Endor is a classic example of one side having bad orders and using bad tactics and there by getting defeated by a numericaly inferior force.

BTW, the Sullust scenes only indicate 4 cruisers. I came to one dozen after counting about 6 of them surrounding the Executor near its death. Its logical to assume they had more elsewhere and one dozen seems about right.

[Thirdfain]

What bad tactics? The Rebels joined the Imperial fleet in a point-blank slugfest- the vessels weren't even maneuvering. In such a fight, it comes down to firepower and resilence. Anyone here with naval experience care to tall Aleyska how important even a tiny numerical advantage is in a fleet action? The Rebels must have had reinforcements. Where do you get the dozen cruisers number from?

[phongn]

Awhile ago I looked painstakingly at the screenshots on SWTC and got around 9-12 cruisers, I'll try and look it up on Google Groups again.

And while they were engaging at point-blank range, not all of the Imperial warships were in position! - they looked like they were in a multilayered formation design to stop anyone from fleeing through them, not to crush someone (which is what the DS2 was supposed to do).

AFAIK, there weren't 100 ships there, I'm not even sure if both Death Squadron and the local sector group were there - I only recall ~25 ISDs, 1 Communications Cruiser & 1 Executor in the area.

One possible way to rationalise this is to use a strict naming scheme, where the Mon Calamari light cruisers are superior to the Imperial destroyers, but this flies in the face of virtually everything in the EU. I have argued in the past that there may have been up to three Home One-type cruisers, which should be able to beat up ISDs by the numbers. (AOS argues they are really pure carriers, a source of contention between him and I)

[Alyeska]

Awhile ago I looked painstakingly at the screenshots on SWTC and got around 9-12 cruisers, I'll try and look it up on Google Groups again.

And while they were engaging at point-blank range, not all of the Imperial warships were in position! - they looked like they were in a multilayered formation design to stop anyone from fleeing through them, not to crush someone (which is what the DS2 was supposed to do).

AFAIK, there weren't 100 ships there, I'm not even sure if both Death Squadron and the local sector group were there - I only recall ~25 ISDs, 1 Communications Cruiser & 1 Executor in the area.

One possible way to rationalise this is to use a strict naming scheme, where the Mon Calamari light cruisers are superior to the Imperial destroyers, but this flies in the face of virtually everything in the EU. I have argued in the past that there may have been up to three Home One-type cruisers, which should be able to beat up ISDs by the numbers. (AOS argues they are really pure carriers, a source of contention between him and I)

Hmm, that does make a bit more sense. I suppose leaving the Death Squadron away would make it look like less of a trap. And with the case of Home One type cruisers, that actualy make sense. I could see a formation of three Home One type ships moving together and pounding the enemy ISDs into scrap. A single Home One is superior to an ISD because of massive shielding and armor and similar weapons. Three together should be able to shred an ISD. Trade point ships as they keep taking down ISDs and the damaged shield ones can hold back to bring their shields up while a relatively fresh cruiser takes the brunt of the next ISDs fire.

[His Divine Shadow]

One possible way to rationalise this is to use a strict naming scheme, where the Mon Calamari light cruisers are superior to the Imperial destroyers, but this flies in the face of virtually everything in the EU. I have argued in the past that there may have been up to three Home One-type cruisers, which should be able to beat up ISDs by the numbers. (AOS argues they are really pure carriers, a source of contention between him and I)

Well they are 4km long compared to 1.6km for the ISD, so I guess I can live with my preciousss loosing, oh my preciousss....

[Lord Pounder]

I hate to bring up EU in a debate like this but using Mon Cal Cruisers in groups was a standard tac of the rebel fleet. In one of the Wraith books Mon Remonda and Mon Karen work in unison to blow the crap outta Iron Fist. The Mon Karen hides behind the Remondas heavier shields and attacks with impunity. I'm guessing that 3 Home One class curisers doing this would be able to absorb a huge amount of damage while dealing it straight back. It is a better explanation that bad tatics or Force-Coordination.

[phongn]

One possible way to rationalise this is to use a strict naming scheme, where the Mon Calamari light cruisers are superior to the Imperial destroyers, but this flies in the face of virtually everything in the EU. I have argued in the past that there may have been up to three Home One-type cruisers, which should be able to beat up ISDs by the numbers. (AOS argues they are really pure carriers, a source of contention between him and I)

Well they are 4km long compared to 1.6km for the ISD, so I guess I can live with my preciousss loosing, oh my preciousss....

3.2km, not 4, but still prestigious commend ships (and I refuse to believe that they only have 29 TL batteries! 92 makes much more sense)

[phongn]

Hmm, that does make a bit more sense. I suppose leaving the Death Squadron away would make it look like less of a trap. And with the case of Home One type cruisers, that actualy make sense. I could see a formation of three Home One type ships moving together and pounding the enemy ISDs into scrap. A single Home One is superior to an ISD because of massive shielding and armor and similar weapons. Three together should be able to shred an ISD. Trade point ships as they keep taking down ISDs and the damaged shield ones can hold back to bring their shields up while a relatively fresh cruiser takes the brunt of the next ISDs fire.

In addition, the Rebel fleet had something supremely important: they had a dedicated screen to swat fighters out of the sky. The opening trap scene shows TIEs simply punching past the Rebel strike group and heading for the carriers - where they would promptly meet Rebel frigates, corvettes and gunships. (There is also the Nebulon-B CVE (as opposed to the FF) which was introduced by an EFX error - it nicely reconciles they fact that the FF doesn't have room for 24 fighters!)

This would have given the Rebel fighters a chance to regroup after being pummeled like that and survive longer, since those scores of TIE squadrons should have otherwise made short work of the four Rebel fighter wings - though we don't actually know how big they are. 72 fighters/wing or even 144 seems too low for an attack of this size.

So while a couple of cruisers (Liberty-type, possible Home One-type) get obliterated by the Death Star, the rest of the fleet is more or less intact. The Imperial TIE squadrons have been hurt badly by flying into so much enemy fire, leaving the Rebel fighters more or less free to hit point targets. Meanwhile, a melee develops, and the advantage goes to the Mon Calamari crews. The fact that the Imperial fleet is in 'stop enemy from fleeing' formation only hurts them.

Anyways, ships on all sides are getting pounded horridly, cruisers and destroyers dying, ships ramming, etc. The DS2 gets blown up, the Emperor dies, the Imperial Fleet loses Palpatine's Force Boost and runs. Cue warlordism.

(Some of the above is based on IXJac's analysis of the Battle of Endor - mostly the Imperial fleet maneuver. I didn't agree with some of his article - especially relating to the nature of turbolasers and shields, but much of it does make sense)

[phongn]

I hate to bring up EU in a debate like this but using Mon Cal Cruisers in groups was a standard tac of the rebel fleet. In one of the Wraith books Mon Remonda and Mon Karen work in unison to blow the crap outta Iron Fist. The Mon Karen hides behind the Remondas heavier shields and attacks with impunity. I'm guessing that 3 Home One class curisers doing this would be able to absorb a huge amount of damage while dealing it straight back. It is a better explanation that bad tatics or Force-Coordination.

One should remember that Warlord Zjini (sp?) was rather paranoid and apparently fled one of his battles after persuading himself that numerous Republic fleets were after him.

That said, the MC80B family (unknown which flight, I, II or III either were) were very well shielded and had decent armament.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

A Comparison of Alliance and Imperial Forces

"As you can see, by the numbers, the picture is pretty bleak. The Empire's forces outnumber the Alliance forces by a factor of almost 30 to one in raw manpower, by better than 12 to one in equipment, and by about 15 to one in warships and transports. The numbers are equally grim when you compare weapons research, intelligence, and supplies."

This is insane.


If the Empire conscripted/recruited 3% of the population of each world and each world has 10 billion people, and the Empire has 12 million worlds, that's 3,600,000,000,000,000. Does the Rebellion have 120 trillion troops? Lower that to 1% and you still get 1,200,000,000,000,000 and the Rebellion 40 trillion troops?

Let's say the Empire has 1.2 million ships (underestimate looking at the DS2). That means the Rebellion has 100 000 ships! Couldn't they spare 5% for Endor? I didn't see 5000 ships there though. Did you?

And Mom Mothma describes the Imperial Fleet as trying to find the Alliance. With the thousands of worlds it must have held, they must need glasses!