Let's play with numbers

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-08 03:39pm

Let's take the obselete Acclamator transport. It has 12 quad turrets (48 guns), each at 200 gigatons. For ease, I'll ignore the small guns and missles.

1 SHOT
200 gigatons (several times the yield of the arsenals of the US and USSR)

1 FULL ALPHA STRIKE (all guns firing)
9.6 teratons

1 MINUTE FIRING (assuming 10 second refire rate)
57.6 teratons (over half the K-T extinction asteroid impact and a moderate estimate of the SPK)

10 MINUTE FIRING
576 teratons (near the 650 tt high yield for SPK)

1 HOUR FIRING
3,456 teratons

2 HOUR FIRING
6,912 teratons

10 HOUR FIRING
34,560 teratons

24 HOUR (1 DAY) FIRING
82,944 teratons

ESTIMATED BDZ FIREPOWER: 23,900.57361 teratons

Therefore, a Acclamator can commense a BDZ in 10 hours (less with multiple ships). If a ISD is a order of magnitute stronger, it can commense a BDZ in under an hour.

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-04-09 01:18am

That does not leave much time to save a planet from an ISD I wonder why the Remnant didn't use BDZ that often

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-04-09 01:26am

Nice...and FettKyle, mostly because FUBARing a world is not in anyone's interest.

I see BDZ as a resort just to punish a world where all else pretty much failed...just shy of the Death Star option should it been sucessfully launched.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-09 01:35am

So that would be

ISD I Alpha Strike: 96 Teratons (only possible w/ half guns due to gun arrangement on ISD Mk. I)

ISD I HTL Quantity: 6 turrets, 2 quad batteries (3 turrets and 1 quad usable for BDZ; firing angles prevent more guns)

ISD I HTL Barrels: 20 barrels (10 each side).

ISD I HTL (per barrel) Firepower: 9.6 Teratons

ISD I HTL Turret Firepower: 19.2 Teratons per burst

ISD I HTL Quad Battery: 38.4 Teratons per burst

This means an ISD I can fire 96 Teratons directly starboard and port. It can fire 2 quad batteries and 2 turrets dead forward. That is 12 barrels for 115.2 Teratons in a full forward assault.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-09 02:56am

which makes an ssd bdz in the 10 minute range?

holy hell.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-09 03:08am

SW Technical Commentaries, on Executor-class Weaponry wrote:The largest visible lumps scattered across the dorsal hull are about the same size as the heavy gun turrets of star destroyers (eg. the eight eight-gun turrets of the Avenger). They may be a similar kind of gun, but this identification is unconfirmed. There are at least several hundred of these likely turrets. Images of the Executor's plunge into the surface of the second Death Star provide a conveniently lit top view of the ship that shows at least 126 bumps on part of the starboard side. Extrapolating this density over the entire dorsal hull suggests over 400 emplacements in total, which would imply over three thousand cannons is each battery is the octuple-barrel turrets found on star destroyers.

Lets assume each of those lumps is a ISD Mk. I turret.

ISD I HTL Turret Firepower: 19.2 Teratons per burst

Let's assume only half the Executor's weapons can be aimed on a single target.

Executor-class Alpha Strike: 3840 Teratons

Theoretically an Executor-class could execute a BDZ with six broadsides, assuming they could be adequately distributed over the planetary surface.

Assuming it could orbit a planet and target its guns that fast, and assuming a 10 second refire rate, an Executor-class could execute a BDZ in just over one minute.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-04-09 05:16am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Theoretically an Executor-class could execute a BDZ with six broadsides, assuming they could be adequately distributed over the planetary surface.

Fuck with that kind of firepower it could likely break up the planet.

With repeated volleys ofcourse, say it can do one alpha strike every 60 seconds, in one day it would unleash 2e28joules, thats GOTTA HURT.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-04-09 05:19am

So, a less than 44 km^3 Executor could destroy the life on a planet in less than ten minutes and a simple ISD I (less than 0.1 km^3) could do it within an hour. (Did you count the three barelled guns for the forward strike of an ISD I?)
Why did the empire build a 2'144'660 km^3 gunstation?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-04-09 05:21am

vakundok wrote:So, a less than 44 km^3 Executor could destroy the life on a planet in less than ten minutes and a simple ISD I (less than 0.1 km^3) could do it within an hour. (Did you count the three barelled guns for the forward strike of an ISD I?)
Why did the empire build a 2'144'660 km^3 gunstation?

-Planetary shields
-Terror Weapon

It's also a utterly superior battlestation that the Emperor could retreat to and be relatively safe even if the fleet turned on him(they could not concentrate enough firepower on the DS to hurt it)

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-04-09 05:43am

Terror:
I canot see much difference between the terror caused by a BDZ or a complete destruction.
Planetary shield:
If the Executor and the Death Star have the same density it means that nearly 50.000 Executor could be constructed from the material of the Death Star. Could any defense (planetary shields or defense fleets) hold against only 100 Executors? (Needless to say that 100 Executor can keep 100 "lightly" defended systems in terror simultaneously.)
Last stand:
The firepower of the DS 1 is referred as half of that of the fleet. I think the whole fleet could destroy the DS. Besides, how long do the supplies of a DS hold?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-09 06:58am

vakundok wrote:Terror:
I canot see much difference between the terror caused by a BDZ or a complete destruction.

Desden

Nagasaki.

Compare.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-04-09 07:30am

NecronLord wrote:
vakundok wrote:Terror:
I canot see much difference between the terror caused by a BDZ or a complete destruction.
Desden

Nagasaki.

Compare.

The radiation caused previously unknown illness and deaths even days (years) after the attack. An unseen enemy (radiation) is the most terrifying, isn't it? So, I think those situations are too different to compare.

"Your world has been destroyed. Millions died. Everything and everyone you know are gone. Only an asteroid field remained."
"Your world has suffered a BDZ. Millions died. Everything and everyone you know are gone. Only the molten surface remained."
Or did I misinterpret the Base Delta Zero?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-09 08:03am

Half of the entire Imperial fleet cannot be concentrated at one battle.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-09 08:18am

course they could.

it would just be a *big* battle.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-09 08:34am

vakundok wrote:
NecronLord wrote: Desden

Nagasaki.

Compare.
The radiation caused previously unknown illness and deaths even days (years) after the attack. An unseen enemy (radiation) is the most terrifying, isn't it? So, I think those situations are too different to compare.

"Your world has been destroyed. Millions died. Everything and everyone you know are gone. Only an asteroid field remained."
"Your world has suffered a BDZ. Millions died. Everything and everyone you know are gone. Only the molten surface remained."
Or did I misinterpret the Base Delta Zero?

The psycological impact you missed. In WWII the Japanese psyche was able to take the concept of letting squadrons through, city destroyed. One bomb (or in this case shot) one city (planet) is a major jump psychologically.

Don't forget they didn't just build the deathstar for the superlaser, or they could have built darksabres for that. It is also a massive force projection platform. A USN carrier group to the ninth power if you will.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-04-09 10:07am

NecronLord wrote:The psycological impact you missed. In WWII the Japanese psyche was able to take the concept of letting squadrons through, city destroyed. One bomb (or in this case shot) one city (planet) is a major jump psychologically.

Don't forget they didn't just build the deathstar for the superlaser, or they could have built darksabres for that. It is also a massive force projection platform. A USN carrier group to the ninth power if you will.

Do you think there is a large jump between "a large fleet of huge ships (100 Executors) arrived and leveled the planet with two volleys in ten seconds (or a single volley)" and "an enormous station arrived and destroyed the planet with a single shot"?

Well, the movie suggests that the DS1 was built only for the superlaser and even lacked correct shielding. (In AotC they referred the plans as the ultimate weapon not as the ultimate station with a fair weapon. And the weapon kept the ratio to the whole station.)

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-04-09 06:01pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
SW Technical Commentaries, on Executor-class Weaponry wrote:The largest visible lumps scattered across the dorsal hull are about the same size as the heavy gun turrets of star destroyers (eg. the eight eight-gun turrets of the Avenger). They may be a similar kind of gun, but this identification is unconfirmed. There are at least several hundred of these likely turrets. Images of the Executor's plunge into the surface of the second Death Star provide a conveniently lit top view of the ship that shows at least 126 bumps on part of the starboard side. Extrapolating this density over the entire dorsal hull suggests over 400 emplacements in total, which would imply over three thousand cannons is each battery is the octuple-barrel turrets found on star destroyers.
Lets assume each of those lumps is a ISD Mk. I turret.

ISD I HTL Turret Firepower: 19.2 Teratons per burst

Let's assume only half the Executor's weapons can be aimed on a single target.

Executor-class Alpha Strike: 3840 Teratons

Theoretically an Executor-class could execute a BDZ with six broadsides, assuming they could be adequately distributed over the planetary surface.

Assuming it could orbit a planet and target its guns that fast, and assuming a 10 second refire rate, an Executor-class could execute a BDZ in just over one minute.

The lumps on the hull of the executor are not guns of the kind on the ISD,s there to small.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-09 06:40pm

PPOR.

Saxton's seen more of the SSD's photographs to my knowledge than you've demonstrated. I'm inclined to believe him.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-09 06:41pm

NecronLord wrote:
vakundok wrote:Terror:
I canot see much difference between the terror caused by a BDZ or a complete destruction.
Desden

Nagasaki.

Compare.

Selective American history education.

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Theoretically an Executor-class could execute a BDZ with six broadsides, assuming they could be adequately distributed over the planetary surface.
Fuck with that kind of firepower it could likely break up the planet.

With repeated volleys ofcourse, say it can do one alpha strike every 60 seconds, in one day it would unleash 2e28joules, thats GOTTA HURT.

And if we're going by more likely 10 second bursts, that's six times that in one day.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-04-09 06:49pm

vakundok wrote:Terror:
I canot see much difference between the terror caused by a BDZ or a complete destruction.

In the sense that they're both going to kill you, yes

I understand what you mean.

However, the difference is that, IIRC, someone survived a BDZ in a very deep underground bunker (miles beneath the Camassi surface perhaps?). Though I myself find it VERY unlikely most planets would be able to scramble spacecraft such that people were able to escape, that's still a possibility too.

Moderately defended worlds, such as ones with theatre shielding, could also strike back at an ISD. A giant ion cannon or planetary turbolaser could be very nasty to an ISD about to initiate a BDZ. It's unlikely the defending planet would get anything beyond an alpha strike--once the BDZ truly commenced, the land around the shield would be pounded so hard that everyone underneath the "dome" itself would be killed--but that's still a possibility, right?

Additionally, if yours was a very powerful planet, you might actually have your own defense fleet. Many of the ships might be junk or very old, but they'd still be armed. Lots of such ships could give even a fleet of Imperators some trouble. If they were only able to slow the Imperials down for a few minutes, that's still time for a planet's dignitaries to make orbit and hyperjump to safety, for instance.

With a Death Star, there are no survivors, even if they were somehow able to hide in the planet's core like Hilary Swank. There is no striking back. It hyperjumps into your system, targets your planet, then blows you to kingdom come. A thousand planetary turbolasers, or a fleet of hundreds of powerful ships, can't even slow it down. It's like a Borg cube rolling over Starfleet ships at Wolf 359, but raised to the 150th power!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-09 07:11pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:course they could.

it would just be a *big* battle.

I hope you realize the problem with that.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-09 07:17pm

vakundok wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The psycological impact you missed. In WWII the Japanese psyche was able to take the concept of letting squadrons through, city destroyed. One bomb (or in this case shot) one city (planet) is a major jump psychologically.

Don't forget they didn't just build the deathstar for the superlaser, or they could have built darksabres for that. It is also a massive force projection platform. A USN carrier group to the ninth power if you will.
Do you think there is a large jump between "a large fleet of huge ships (100 Executors) arrived and leveled the planet with two volleys in ten seconds (or a single volley)" and "an enormous station arrived and destroyed the planet with a single shot"?

Well, the movie suggests that the DS1 was built only for the superlaser and even lacked correct shielding. (In AotC they referred the plans as the ultimate weapon not as the ultimate station with a fair weapon. And the weapon kept the ratio to the whole station.)

What we know it does and what it has is more important than distortions of dialogue to hint that other parts had exaggerated importance. We know what the DS did and what it was designed for by how resources and space was allocated to the volume and power needs of the station.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-09 07:31pm

Take the bullshit 250 TLs for WEG. Thats 2000 batteries.

Assume each is the power of 200 gigatons.

ALPHA STRIKE
400 teratons.

1 MINUTE FIRING (10 second refire)
2,400 teratons (2/3 of the Acclamator power in 1/60 of the time)

10 MINUTE FIRING
24,000 teratons (BDZ)

1 HOUR FIRING
144 000 teratons

1 DAY FIRING
3,456,000 teratons!

Assuming 1 TL=1 teraton

ALPHA STRIKE
2000 teratons

1 MINUTE FIRING
12,000 teratons

2 MINUTE
24,000 teratons (BDZ in 2 minutes)

10 minutes
120,000 thousand.

1 HOUR
720,000 teratons

24 HOURS
17,280,000 teratons!!!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-09 07:53pm

Add missles!

Assuming each missle is 2 orders of magnitute higher then the TLs (1 and the gun alpha strike outguns the missles) There are 4 tubes

1 MISSLE
20 teratons ( 1 missle)

ALPHA STRIKE
80 teratons (4 missles)

1 MINUTE FIRING
480 teratons. (24 missles)

10 MINUTES FIRING
4,800 teratons 240 missles

1 HOUR FIRING
28,800 teratons 1,440 missles

10 HOUR FIRING
288,000 teratons 14,400 missles

24 HOURS
691,200 teratons 34,560 missles

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-09 07:59pm

COMBINED FIREPOWER

ALPHA STRIKE
89.6 teratons

1 MINUTE FIRING
537.6 teratons

10 MINUTE FIRING
5,376 teratons

30 MINUTES FIRING
16,128 teratons (720 missles)

40 MINUTE FIRING
21,504 teratons (960 missles)

50 MINUTE FIRING
26,880 teratons (BDZ!) (1200 missles)

1 HOUR
32,256 teratons

10 HOUR
320,256 teratons

24 HOUR
774,144 teratons

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Let's play with numbers

Let's play with numbers

SSD BDZ