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One point of contention regarding stormtroopers is the question of whether they are regular humans recruited and conditioned to be elite infantry or cloned humans mass produced and conditioned to be elite infantry.

Why not both?

Ultimately, clones produced from one donor are vulnerable. The enemy just has to acquire a few tissue samples from a battlefield corpse, or take one prisoner, and the jig is up.

Without extensive genetic tinkering, all clones from a single source should share virtually identical immune responses and will definitely have the same genetic markers. That means that a bioweapon could be configured specifically to take out stormtrooper clones from a particular donor. The troopers can't stay in their armor forever and subsist just on intestinal fortitude, and an agent would just have to get one vial of a suitably virulent and infectious but highly target-specific virus or bacterium into a major barracks facility to destroy a garrison with relatively little risk to other humans.

A complicated counter to such sabotage would be to engage in the aforementioned extensive genetic tinkering, modifying the genetic codes of various stormtrooper batches to provide enough variety to make specific targeting of bioweapons impractical.

A simpler counter to such sabotage would be to just use multiple donors. Essentially, one simply takes promising candidates, like highly decorated and talented Imperial Army soldiers, tests them for genetic suitability and then uses them as donors. Basically, it would amount to the real-world equivalent of cloning suitable Medal of Honor recipients and raising the clones in military academies.

An even simpler counter to such sabotage would be to recruit hordes of promising candidates and run them through a meatgrinder of physical and mental conditioning, with those showing leadership potential being shunted to training programs for officers. The best of the regularly recruited troops can then be used as donors for further clone batches.

Stormtrooper units could then be easily composed of mixed batches of assorted clone lineages and regularly born personnel.

Now ...

Is that too complicated an answer, too simple, is there a different answer completely, or is it simply a non-issue?

If they were clones, why did Leia not KNOW he wasn't a stormtrooper, rather than just simply ask "Aren't you a bit short for a ST"?

And they aren't all the same size in the Trilogy, right? I mean, some guys a little bit taller, some a little bit shorter.

Does anybody really float the theory they are still clones by ANH?

The subject has come up a few times around here in the last couple of days. It does seem patently ridiculous to assume that all enlisted stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett.

One possible rationalization is that they are platoons of clones led by natural born humans.

Khan Jackal Moreau wrote:If they were clones, why did Leia not KNOW he wasn't a stormtrooper, rather than just simply ask "Aren't you a bit short for a ST"?

And they aren't all the same size in the Trilogy, right? I mean, some guys a little bit taller, some a little bit shorter.

Does anybody really float the theory they are still clones by ANH?

Yes, because George Lucas said so. But you are an idiot, so we understand.

I seem to remember one book (the essential guide to characters I think) saying that stormies were recruited from certain worlds.
But maybe the clonetroopers that survived the clone wars were used as the nuclei of the stormtroopers. The clonetroopers passing on their skills and knowledge as best they could to the stormie recruits.

I was thinking that too. The cloning facilities produced clones full-bore, and the rest necessary to control a galaxy were recruited. There have been debates, and I think an army of clones and natural born humans would be a good compromise. As for clones led by a human, I was thinking ther other way around on that: Humans led by a clone.

I really don't think you can engineer a bio weapon to specifically wipe out the clones. Clones or not, they're still human and thus have little genetic differences to the rest of humanity. And I'm sure they checked out Jango Fett for any genetic defects before they started cloning him.

Since Lucas has said that the Troopers are clones, and Temura Morrison himself said that Lucas had him go back and redo the Trooper's voices for the DVDs. Then it's a sure bet that they are clones.

Jim Raynor wrote:I really don't think you can engineer a bio weapon to specifically wipe out the clones. Clones or not, they're still human and thus have little genetic differences to the rest of humanity. And I'm sure they checked out Jango Fett for any genetic defects before they started cloning him.

It would not have to be a genetic defect. The bioweapon would be set up to react only to Jango Fett's DNA or unique physiological markers, and the bioweapon would be designed specifically to overcome Jango Fett's immune system (and one hopes it would include multiple failsafe automatic deactivation mechanisms to prevent mutations going rampant). Since all the original clonetroopers are, in effect, Jango Fett's body modified for accelerated growth to adulthood and a few mental defects like reduced initiative and independence, the effect should be essentially the same as the potato blight in Ireland: a disease suddenly and disastrously wipes out a large population of genetically identical organisms, whether clones of Jango Fett or of potatoes.

As to the plausibility and viability of the concept, your mileage may vary. Obviously, though, one mouse droid reprogrammed to release a nasty aerosol in the barracks facilities of an ISD carrying Jango Fett clones could quickly destroy nearly ten thousand troops. That rebels with sufficient inside access to modify and reprogram even one of an ISD's mouse droids might do something with a quicker and more final effect is unfortunately also obvious.

Khan Jackal Moreau wrote:If they were clones, why did Leia not KNOW he wasn't a stormtrooper, rather than just simply ask "Aren't you a bit short for a ST"?

And they aren't all the same size in the Trilogy, right? I mean, some guys a little bit taller, some a little bit shorter.

Does anybody really float the theory they are still clones by ANH?

You should read his post again. He covered that rather thoroughly to be so short of a post. They can take samples from many different candidates. So Leia would be surprised to find a short stormtrooper but the possiblity exists. Just think. Shorter ones could pilot the EU's AT-PT. TIE Pilots could be really short, letting them make a smaller cockpit. (sorta. it's a stretch I know). In fact, I whole heartily agree that they are majorally clones. Think about this. Everyone has been saying that it would be too cost effective. What if they find a way to speed up the growth process? Plus, why would you force a conscript on worlds that don't support you? Take Zeth, Kyp Durron's brother. They had brutally train him before he was workable in the Empire. That has a cost as well. Clones wouldn't expect a paycheck either. Just keep them quarters on starships, or garrisons and feed them. Hell, they haven't been out and about. They just know duty to the Empire. Personally though, I would have to think that stormtroopers are mostly clones, but some are people that 'willingly' joined the Empire and train out to be exceptional in different abilities.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:As for clones led by a human, I was thinking ther other way around on that: Humans led by a clone.

Except that the problem is that clones are said to be less independent and less freethinking, exactly the opposite of what you want in a leader.

I have a feeling that Clones make up the numeretical majority, but e-6 and above are naturals. Also, doesnt' it say in the AOTC Novel that they need Jango to keep refreshing the DNA? If he is dead, they can't get anymore. And if they can just use a clone's DNA, why not do that in the first place instead of keeping him around and keep paying him?

In my view, easiest solution is that Natural borns are brought in to serve as commanders of clones, and also as DNA sources (though they may not be aware of that latter fact). This woulkd fit with the movies, and would not require any EU contradiction.

The bioweapon would be set up to react only to Jango Fett's DNA or unique physiological markers, and the bioweapon would be designed specifically to overcome Jango Fett's immune system

Uh... that's not possible. Something that has an adverse effect on human tissue will have an adverse effect on - surprise! - ALL human tissue.

heres some info that will help you all about this issue. Some of you will still not accept this but here it is. Go to the Force net and go to ep2 characters scroll down until you get to clone troopers than click on all atricles then their will be a topic attack of the clones 1981 the article is very interesting and prooves that st are indeed clones and its by guess who george lucas oh wow!

that all i have see ya

I'd assume that we'll be in a much better position to answer this when Ep 3 is out.

But anyway, it makes sense to me that stormtroopers would be clones - why would the Empire switch from clones to natural born humans? What's the point? Also, stormtroopers are supposedly the Empire's most effective units so it would make sense to have only your best soldiers as stormtroopers. I also think it'd be logical for there to be a few sources... but its not that big of a deal. I would guess, however, that regular Imperial units may well be made up of natural borns to provide anybody wanting to enter the Imperial ranks wih something to do - remember Luke wanted to join 'the Academy'.

Incidentally, if the stormies are clones, then would there be any 'better' stormtroopers - "an entire legion of my best troops await them". Maybe some have more experience or something.

SPOOFE wrote:

The bioweapon would be set up to react only to Jango Fett's DNA or unique physiological markers, and the bioweapon would be designed specifically to overcome Jango Fett's immune system

Uh... that's not possible. Something that has an adverse effect on human tissue will have an adverse effect on - surprise! - ALL human tissue.

That does not really mesh with the real world, though. The simplest example is, as always, the potato blight. The principle holds for other diseases as well, though. That's one of the major reasons why modern agriculture, including animal husbandry, are extremely vulnerable to catastrophic disease outbreaks: the immune responses of huge plant monocultures, or of huge herds of animals with extremely low genetic diversity, is the same, making them vulnerable to being wiped out by a disease outbreak.

A rough example of a bioweapon of the sort I mean would be the following:

Jango Blight: a three-component bioweapon combining a fungus, two bacteria, and a virus.

The fungus spores are released in the target area.

Fungus spores that settle on the skin of a Jango Fett clone react to the clone's unique combination of protein markers and pheromones. The spores remain inert otherwise. The activated fungus immediately begins to grow throughout the skin and deposits one of the bacteria in the target's bloodstream. The bacteria begin to multiply and, during various stages of their life cycle, release the viral component of the bioweapon. The virus infiltrates the target's central nervous system, including crossing the brain/blood barrier to directly infect the brain. Once the fungal infestation has advanced sufficiently below the surface of the skin, the fungus produces reproductive structures on the skin and releases new spores, after which the fungus abruptly decays and induces massive anaphylactic shock and septicemia, as well as stripping off the skin. The bacteria, which by this time should have infiltrated all major organs and muscle groups, react to this as a trigger and begin to produce virulent toxins. The virus itself reacts to this by killing all infiltrated neurons.

Inhaled fungus spores act in essentially the same way, but the lungs are affected instead of the skin, so that the final stage involves the lungs disintegrating instead of the skin.

There are various safeguards built in, including several genetic self-destruct codes that activate after various generations of the bioweapon components. The most important safeguard, however, is the second bacterium carried by the fungus spores. The safeguard bacterium does not form spores and can not reproduce, though it tries hard. Once released into the environment, each attempt to reproduce instead releases a toxin into the spore that eventually degrades the spore, destroying its viability and that of the bacteria and viruses carried along inside the spore. That way, the bioweapon can be held almost indefinitely if in a medium saturated with nutrients and a substance that suppresses the safeguard bacterium's need to reporoce. Once the spores are released, however, they render themselves harmless over the course of a few days.

You can think of the clones like what the Communists did in the Soviet Union. At birth the governement picked their future jobs and who was going to the miltary. As they grew up and saw how they looked and their hight they were moved to being pilots, army, navy and so forth. So if the troopers arent clones after all, the Stormies can be a certain hight since they were picked that way.

I think that people were recruited to supplement the clones, either as canon fodder, or in support roles.

I was also thinking the shorter people were trained to be TIE fighter pilots, so they could fit into the pit easier. When Darth Vader in his wingment wentr to their fighters, Darth Vader was very tall compared to them, like over a foot taller.

Problem with the Clones being Storm troopers is the fact that it required 10 years to grow train a clone trooper..

It was a good bet that most of the Clone troopers were destroy during the Clone war .. ( especially in light of the way War Droids can be Mass product) and was only a stop Gap measure, until a real army could be rised..

They may have later from a core or nucleus for the future Imperial army and storm troopers.. We also known that the Emperor secure the Cloning tubes so no future clones could be manufactured...

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I was also thinking the shorter people were trained to be TIE fighter pilots, so they could fit into the pit easier. When Darth Vader in his wingment wentr to their fighters, Darth Vader was very tall compared to them, like over a foot taller.

Vader was tall compared to everybody. I thought the TIE pilots were roughly the height of Han Solo, but I haven't seen ANH in a while.

The TIE Pilots when walking next to Vader seemed a shorter than most everyone else did. Also, the ten year growth span was the original time. They could find a way to speed it up possibly. Though you had the ten years between the movies, they already had more on the way, plus what they were growing. It is roughly 18 yrs between 3 and 4 so that gives more time for them to be grown in addition to the absence of war. Ony the Rebellion and at the start was only minor. I really believe they are mostly clones, but there's obviously not way to know until 3 comes out.

IIRC, its been mentioned in the EU that natural born humans are recruited as stormies. There is also the WEG Imperial Sourcebook that dicsusses stormie recruitment and training.

It is highly likely that there are many clones still within the ranks of the military, but it is also just as likely that naturals are now the majority. After all, the clone army was only created because an army needed to be raised in secret.

i would still have to disagree. If i could get my picture thing straightened out i could just show some of the info i have from 1981. I will keep trying to figure out my problem.

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