The Rebel Fleet at Endor

[phongn]

There are a few topics around this here on the board, so I thought that I might get some feedback on a fleet count. Three years ago I made a count based on some of the evidence seen on SWTC. This should be considered a low-end count, as I may have double-counted various cruisers. (Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

Major/Semimajor Combatants
4 MC80
3 Liberty (1 destroyed by DS2)
3 Home One (1 destroyed by DS2)
1 Nebulon-B CVL (Based on an EFX error, but nicely reconciles that there isn't enough room in the 300-m FF for 24 fighters)

Escorts
7 Nebulon-B FF (Based on Boba Fett [the poster]'s estimate)
1 Y-Head Corvette
? Corellian Corvettes
? Transport Fireships
1 CVE (freighter modification)

[Kerneth]

There are a few topics around this here on the board, so I thought that I might get some feedback on a fleet count. Three years ago I made a count based on some of the evidence seen on SWTC. This should be considered a low-end count, as I may have double-counted various cruisers. (Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

Major/Semimajor Combatants
4 MC80
3 Liberty (1 destroyed by DS2)
3 Home One (1 destroyed by DS2)
1 Nebulon-B CVE (Based on an EFX error, but nicely reconciles that there isn't enough room in the 300-m FF for 24 fighters)

Escorts
7 Nebulon-B FF (Based on Boba Fett [the poster]'s estimate)
1 Y-Head Corvette
? Corellian Corvettes
? Transport Fireships

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Home One was the name of Ackbar's flagship, not the name of a class of starship. Also, I think the Liberty was the name of the medical frigate that was destroyed by the DS2. Once again, a ship's name not a class of vessel. I can't find my novellization of the movies so I can't be sure though.[/i]

[phongn]

Home One was either the name or the callsign of Ackbar's flagship (which has also been called the Headquarters Frigate and occasionally Independance - though that's unusual since Independance was of the wingless MC80 type). It has generally been called the Home One-type command cruiser [CC] in fandom as we have no other reference to call it.

The winged light cruiser [CL] is usually given the class name Liberty as it is the only known named example of it, you you could easilly call it the Liberty-type rather than Liberty-class.

[Alyeska]

(Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

The reason I say ~12 is because durring one particular sequence we see a minimum of a half dozen Mon Cal cruisers forward, port, and starboard of the Executor itself. While it is obvious the Rebel forces stayed together while they attempted to break through the Imperial encirling attempt and its logical they concentrated on the Executor, we still don't see whats below, above, or behind the Executor. There is still plenty outside of view. So I feel that estimating a total of 12 cruisers seems reasonable.

[phongn]

(Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

The reason I say ~12 is because durring one particular sequence we see a minimum of a half dozen Mon Cal cruisers forward, port, and starboard of the Executor itself. While it is obvious the Rebel forces stayed together while they attempted to break through the Imperial encirling attempt and its logical they concentrated on the Executor, we still don't see whats below, above, or behind the Executor. There is still plenty outside of view. So I feel that estimating a total of 12 cruisers seems reasonable.

Not unreasonable, though more conjecture, really.

[Alyeska]

(Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

The reason I say ~12 is because durring one particular sequence we see a minimum of a half dozen Mon Cal cruisers forward, port, and starboard of the Executor itself. While it is obvious the Rebel forces stayed together while they attempted to break through the Imperial encirling attempt and its logical they concentrated on the Executor, we still don't see whats below, above, or behind the Executor. There is still plenty outside of view. So I feel that estimating a total of 12 cruisers seems reasonable.

Not unreasonable, though more conjecture, really.

Yeah, I know. But I don't want to look like a negative trekkie now do I?

[phongn]

Yeah, I know. But I don't want to look like a negative trekkie now do I?

Bah. I stay conservative with my numbers!

I've updated the list, though, as I forgot the CVE from Truce at Bakura. There probably were some other ships present as well.

[Alyeska]

Yeah, I know. But I don't want to look like a negative trekkie now do I?

Bah. I stay conservative with my numbers!

I've updated the list, though, as I forgot the CVE from Truce at Bakura. There probably were some other ships present as well.

Yeah. As many cruisers as they had, its obvious part of the Rebel fleets firepower lies in its support ships operating in groups, probably hunter killer packs designed to take on ISDs one-on-one.

[phongn]

Indeed. And with the Imperial fleet spread out a blockade formation, this mean the individual cruiser squadrons could concentrate their fire while taking relatively small amounts of fire in return. The strong shields would also help the cruisers as they individually had inferior firepower compared to the Imperial destroyer screen.

Emperor Palpatine's order further compounded this as Piett could not order his force into more useful combat configuration.

[Alyeska]

Indeed. And with the Imperial fleet spread out a blockade formation, this mean the individual cruiser squadrons could concentrate their fire while taking relatively small amounts of fire in return. The strong shields would also help the cruisers as they individually had inferior firepower compared to the Imperial destroyer screen.

Emperor Palpatine's order further compounded this as Piett could not order his force into more useful combat configuration.

Funny how upon further evaluation of the situation you can actualy see how the Empire managed to loose even when they outgunned the enemy around 3-1 bare minimum. Very poor orders, poor battle plan, and incompitent leadership (mostly the Emporer). Palpatine was prepared to loose countless ISDs just to let his new toy do most of the killing.

[Kuja]

Had I been in the Emperor's place, I would've fired the main gun once, just to show that it worked, then let the fleet do their thing.

Although I never would have allowed the Rebels to access the plans in the first place, that's not the subject.

[phongn]

Funny how upon further evaluation of the situation you can actualy see how the Empire managed to loose even when they outgunned the enemy around 3-1 bare minimum. Very poor orders, poor battle plan, and incompitent leadership (mostly the Emporer). Palpatine was prepared to loose countless ISDs just to let his new toy do most of the killing.

Exactly. In any competently fought battle that Imperial forces would have crushed the Rebel fleet (though perhaps with moderate losses).

[Baron Scarpia]

Once again, gotta feel bad for Piett. He couldn't very well go against a direct order from the Emperor, as that was even more assuredly suicide.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There are a few topics around this here on the board, so I thought that I might get some feedback on a fleet count. Three years ago I made a count based on some of the evidence seen on SWTC. This should be considered a low-end count, as I may have double-counted various cruisers. (Alyeska has a larger estimate of ~12 cruisers.)

Major/Semimajor Combatants
4 MC80
3 Liberty (1 destroyed by DS2)
3 Home One (1 destroyed by DS2)
1 Nebulon-B CVL (Based on an EFX error, but nicely reconciles that there isn't enough room in the 300-m FF for 24 fighters)

Escorts
7 Nebulon-B FF (Based on Boba Fett [the poster]'s estimate)
1 Y-Head Corvette
? Corellian Corvettes
? Transport Fireships
1 CVE (freighter modification)

I think there's at least a dozen cruisers.

And I only recall 2 Home One-types.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Indeed. And with the Imperial fleet spread out a blockade formation, this mean the individual cruiser squadrons could concentrate their fire while taking relatively small amounts of fire in return. The strong shields would also help the cruisers as they individually had inferior firepower compared to the Imperial destroyer screen.

Emperor Palpatine's order further compounded this as Piett could not order his force into more useful combat configuration.

Compound this with the fact that the smaller, more flexible, more numerous lighter gunports of the Calamarian cruisers were superior weapons to ISD HTLs in such short-range combat. The Calamarian cruisers could concentrate the majority of their firepower while the majority of the ISDs' was unwieldly and inconvienent at such distances. Heavy capship missiles might also have stood a better chance of not getting destroyed before impact at close ranges.

[phongn]

I think there's at least a dozen cruisers.

And I only recall 2 Home One-types.

There are probably at least 12, but this is a conservative count.

One of the cruisers destroyed by the DS2 looked like a Home One-type rather than an MC80 so I boosted that number up to 3 from 2.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah--I know.

I thought one of the original two was destroyed.

[phongn]

Yeah--I know.

I thought one of the original two was destroyed.

I interpreted the scene with the Executor's demise to have two seperate cruisers - some have disagreed with that.

[Connor MacLeod]

There were at least 10-15 Mon Cal cruisers. I think 2-3 at least were destroyed, and Truce at Bakura suggested that the REbels lost 20% of their fleet (or 1/5th their total ships).

[Robert Treder]

Here are my fleet counts from the Star Wars ROJ Manga (which holds a level of officiality):

discernable ships at Sullust:

1 Home One
1 Liberty
1 anonymous wingless
1 Nebulon-B
2 CEC corvettes
8 Galofree medium transports
~12 ovoid splotches which could be either distant Mon Cals or Galofree transports
+ numerous indescernable splotches, probably mostly fighters

discernable ships at Endor:

Executor's taskforce:
1 Executor
22 Imperator

Home One's taskforce:
1 Home One
1 anonymous wingless
2 Liberty
2 Nebulon-B
2 CEC corvette
note: due to the limited scope of panels, it is probable that there are more ships than these being depicted. I only listed the maximum number of each type depicted together in any given panel, to be conservative.

ships depicted as destroyed:

1 Liberty lost to ISD fire
2 Imperator lost to rebel fire
1 Executor lost (duh)
1 Home One lost to Death Star fire (note: it shows this as being the first blow, which we know was actually the Liberty...however, it doesn't depict the second DS blast, so perhaps this is simply condensing both blasts into one panel)
1 Nebulon-B taking two huge simultaneous explosions (~70-100m across) to the main body (not necessarily being destroyed, but possibly)

after the battle, three Imperators and two Mon Cals are shown as derelict hulks in orbit of the Endor moon.

[Darth Fanboy]

Had I been in the Emperor's place, I would've fired the main gun once, just to show that it worked, then let the fleet do their thing.

Although I never would have allowed the Rebels to access the plans in the first place, that's not the subject.

I would have done everything the Emperor had done, except that I would have implemented contingencies in case the battle on the Forest moon failed.

The Rebel Fleet had to be rooted out and destroyed.

I would have also brought in Admiral Thrawn and ISD Chimaera and kept Executor on the fringe of the battle with interdictors, destroying retreating enemy craft. That behemoth of a ship is undoubtedly a machine of destruction, but with as many star destroyers in the area as there weerre i'd want to free it up a little bit and make up for the difference by using more starfighters and Assault Gunboats.

the DS2 Main gun would have targeted Home One and Luke Skywalker would have been taken far far from the battlefield for indoctrination ater the fact. I feel it would have been easier to turn him after the battle had ended in total victory.

And I would have used a little force precog to help me exterminate indingenous species near my shield generator.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Is out working the Outer Regions, and in fact Chimaera WAS in the battle, under some no-name commander that preceded the more famous Pellaeon (just about the slowest rising man ever )

I'd have concentrated more fleets though. I'd see if I can call up some Deep Core fleet with heavy vessels in it, like Giel's unit, Black Sword Command, or one of those in the Dark Empire comics. Considering that the Imperial Sourcebook (supposedly written by a Rebel historian) suggests that the Rebels are not even truly aware of the existence of such fleets and ship types, I can probably bring them into the battle zone via hyperdrive without them catching on. Just watch them GAPE at ships classes they've never even seen and categorized before

I'd have made the DS a sideshow. I'm going to let the ISDs go all out the smart way - letting the commander decide rather than myself. The Death Star would be plenty impressive enough even in the support role. And I'd consider moving off the DS into another Executor, where I can get an even closer view of the battle and let Luke see my ship ripping Home One apart (or the superlaser doing so.)

[Boba Fett]

There was only 1 Home One.

It was Ackbar's flagship.

There were 2 winged MC80B. One is the Liberty. The other can be seen when Green Leader takes out a TIE over it's wing section then another TIE shoot him down.

Approx. 12 MC80A. They are similar to each other but every calamarian ship is somehow "unique" in it's design.
So the one that found itself on the wrong end of the DS's superlaser -after the destrucion of the Liberty- was an MC80A, not another Home One.

The only "wingless" cruiser was the REEF HOME, named after a calamarian colony. You can easily identify it because it's longer hull plate over the engine block. It also has additional engines as well.
A direct shot from her back section can be seen when the Rebel Fleet makes it's jump to Endor. The Reef Home is next to the Home One.

Medical Frigate Redemption.(Neb-B)
Plus several other Neb-Bs. Possibly seven.

A Y-Headed corvette. 2 CEC Corvette.

CEC Gunship Chanti and Lance. Probably more but that's all I know.

[irishmick79]

No, I think the emperor had the right approach with skywalker on the Death Star. The emperor had to force luke to willingly choose to embrace a dark side course of action, and forcing luke to watch the destruction of the rebel fleet was designed to get luke to make a bad decision in the heat of the moment. And the emperor's strategy almost worked. Luke lashed out in desperation, and was forced to engage Vader. However, I think the only thing that stopped luke from killing Vader was the fact that Vader was luke's father. If Vader had been anybody else, I'm not so sure Luke would have stopped. Palpatine knew that skywalker would have to decide one way or the other on DS2 which path he was going to break, and Palpatine strove to cloud skywalker's judgement as much as he possibly could, and despite the fact that he bungled the battle against the rebel fleet, he almost succeeded.

[phongn]

There was only 1 Home One.

Executor death scenes imply two, DS2 second firing appears to also be on a Home One-type CC.

It was Ackbar's flagship.

It doesn't mean that there's more than one there. Ackbar's may have been equipped with a flag bridge, for instance.

There were 2 winged MC80B. One is the Liberty. The other can be seen when Green Leader takes out a TIE over it's wing section then another TIE shoot him down.

I'm fairly sure there were three (Liberty, various other scenes).

Approx. 12 MC80A. They are similar to each other but every calamarian ship is somehow "unique" in it's design.

Internal differences, likely. This is not without modern precedent - each ship in a class have some differences reflecting various improvements. Where did you get your estimate of 12, though?

So the one that found itself on the wrong end of the DS's superlaser -after the destrucion of the Liberty- was an MC80A, not another Home One.

It's Home One; see below.

MC80A is different than the MC80 despite EU confusion over the issue. It postdates Endor.

The only "wingless" cruiser was the REEF HOME, named after a calamarian colony. You can easily identify it because it's longer hull plate over the engine block. It also has additional engines as well.

There are other ones than that, which corresponds to the MC80 type. Three are clearly visible here. A Home One-type CC is about to be destroyed as well.