Explaining EU Incidents (esp. Rogue Squadron novels)

[Illuminatus Primus]

First up:

In Rogue Squadron: Iron Fist, by Aaron Allston, two Executor-class command ships, the Iron Fist, and the Razor's Kiss, were engaged by a Rebel taskforce known to contain the MC80B cruiser Mon Remonda, a Nebulon-B escort frigate, a Marauder-class corvette, and a Quasar Fire-class picket ship, and an unknown possible contingent of other support craft and fighters.

I do not know if other ships were en route.

The Razor's Kiss and Iron Fist had blasted out of the Kuat yards, and directly engaged the Imperial destroyers Mauler and Gilded Claw as she attempted to escape.

The Iron Fist got one of its topside domes blown off (IIRC) and lost half its shield strength (again, IIRC). The Razor's Kiss was under only slight automated control, having only Zsinj's commando team onboard.

Supposedly, from the broadside angle directly in-front of the Iron Fist, the Mon Remonda could engage it with more weapons than it could bring to bare.

Anyone else want to try and explain this with me?

[Cal Wright]

It's the only thing I know of from Allston that really bothers me. Solo Command is one of the best Star Wars books. However the trivial amount of ships tasked to tackle not one but TWO Super Class vessels is ludicrous. They really needed more Mon Calmari Cruisers in the fray. Granted they had to keep certain areas contained, but Zsinj at this time was the biggest threat. However the amount of weapons on Razor's Kiss wasn't at full complement was it? It was built and ready to go, but not fully done.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Razor's Kiss was not combat-operational because it had no crew; regardless of weapons.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No takers?

Here's my version.

Firstly, the Iron Fist, is not a gleaming fresh-from-Kuat Executor-class under the juristiction of the Galactic Empire at its height. A traitorous warlord and former fleet admiral of the Imperial Navy, helming a tin-pot dictatorship of a backwards husk of the galaxy composed of other traitors.

Such types are not known to keep their equipment in mint condition. Other warlords, the Empire, and the Republic had been trying to destroy the symbol of Zsinj's might, the Iron Fist, for ages. Additionally, the Iron Fist may have been stripped of some weaponry as it was to refit other vessels as the NRS Lusankya was in the Enemy Lines duology. The Executor-class command vessel, is, after all, not a dedicated battleship, but rather a supercarrier with excellent C3I capabilities. If Saxton's analysis is correct, it mounts no weapons larger than an Imperator-class destroyer's main turrets. And in the war-torn and warship-emaciated galaxy, even a stripped-down Executor-class could perform the "shock and awe" abilities it was mandated for by Zsinj. He did not send it into deep combat often; he generally hid it from enemies.



Thusly, I paint a picture of an aging and somewhat stripped-down Executor-class command vessel and carrier infiltrating the highly-defended KDY shipyards and tangling with vicious automated and patrol ship defenses, as well as a pair of Imperator-class destroyers.

The fatigued and aged command vessel escapes with its booty, the HIMS Razor's Kiss and is confronted by a forward contingent of General Solo's forces.

The NRS Mon Remonda positions itself fore and just below the midline of the Iron Fist, where it can actually outgun the stripped-down Executor-class supercarrier, as Imperial vessels have historically lacked heavy weaponry on their ventral face.

Supported by escorts and countless fighters and bombers, the bombers likely equipped with rare and specialized shield-piercing or shield-disrupting weaponry, such as the later T-33 torpedoes. Already fatigued from its escape from Kuat, and facing a stalling and possibly wounding duel with the small task force, and with Solo's armada of Calamarian cruisers and battleships almost certainly en route, the Iron Fist chose to cut its losses and simply leave. The Republic had already taken the prize he'd come for anyway (the HIMS Razor's Kiss).


What does anyone think? Can this jive with the novel? Any other ideas?

[consequences]

Works for me.
We could also presume that since they are referred to as 8km long, thatt they are not Executors at all, but some smaller variety of 'Super' Star Destroyer, possibly in conjunction with your theory.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I prefer, if possible, to make all supposed "Super-class" vessels to be Executor-class vessels. The intention is paramount to me.

Anyone want to post another issue to resolve? Any comments?

[Robert Treder]

Sounds good to me. Doesn't seem to contradict the book, and it makes sense.

[consequences]

The trouble with that theory is that the Allegiance is referred to as a 'Super' Star Destroyer, and it is clearly visible in the comics, and also clearly not an Executor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its clear that it is intended to be the Super-class, which was intended to be the Executor-class.

Also, official use of "Super-class Star Destroyer" (for the Executor-class Command Ship) and simply "Super Star Destroyer" are not interchangable.

The Iron Fist is intended to be a "Super-class," and thus is an Executor-class.

If it is plausable as the Executor-class, which it is, in my opinion (see above). Than I don't think we should mess with it. One shouldn't strain continuity fixes/excuses and invent contradictions/abiguity all the time.

[Publius]

The Iron Fist was of course one of the first four Super Star Destroyers. Presented to Admiral Zsinj as a token of the Emperor's esteem, there are no real indications that she saw any real campaigning. Although one hesitates to say so, it is quite possible that she was not kept up to the usual combat standards of warships in the Imperial fleet; she was, after all, primarily on guard duty over Dathomir.

With Admiral Zsinj's desertion from the Empire, he rapidly acquired control of a third of the galaxy (at least, so said the first edition of the Wizards of the Coast Core Rulebook). Admiral Zsinj could not possibly have begun his career as a warlord with more than a sector group -- as an admiral, even having that much under his command seems questionable. Much of the burden of his conquests would fall on his most powerful vessels, especially the Iron Fist.

One may speculate, then, that the sudden transition from a largely ceremonial guard function to heavy, vigourous campaigning might have taxed the mechanical systems of the Iron Fist. Additionally, the expense of fitting out and maintaining so large a vessel must have been suitably enormous; the Warlord Zsinj's reticence to make appropriations from his purse is well known. He may have attempted to cut costs by only paying for some of the repairs.

Finally, during the six months of General Solo's campaign, the Iron Fist was being actively hunted by two separate task forces, one from the New Reublic, and one from the Empire. Any real, substantive damages to the ship would have to be repaired underway; the Warlord could probably not afford to take her into port for more comprehensive repairs and recalibration.

One may of course then speculate that the Iron Fist was tired, harried, overtaxed, and only partially maintained to the normal standards. At any given time, she was probably far from optimal and nominal status, with perhaps hundreds of ad hoc modifications to her frame and hull, that would of course be visible only at extremely close ranges.

Alternatively, the Iron Fist is factually known to have had at least one substantive modification; the laboratory facilities seen in Solo Command are decidedly non-standard. It is, indeed, quite possible that the entire ship had been modified at some unspecified date, with a great degree of her internal volume dedicated to being the seat of government for the Warlord Zsinj's empire. If this were the case, then it could very well have been that while she appeared every bit as formidable as her sister ships, she was in fact drastically reduced in warmaking capacity.

In this light, one might view the Iron Fist as something like an Iowa-class battleship with most of her internal volume changed into a command ship, leaving only three of her 16"-guns intact, and the other two turrets still on the main deck, but without any real working parts in them. To an observer, she might still seem every bit the fast battleship, but the admiral embarked aboard her would know better, and would naturally hesitate to engage an enemy cruiser, despite the fact that an unmodified Iowa-class BB might comfortably expect to blast the enemy ship in half.

Publius

[Ender]

A few things:
1) THe Iron Fist might not have had any missiles at this point, we we knoe they are expensive and had somewhat rare production facilities (relative to other weapons, speculation based on Starfighters of Adumar)
2) Just as both the Enterprise and the Nimitz are classified as "Super carriers" based on their sheer size, I would expect the same to be applied to SDs, perhaps any ship of that type more then 2 km long would recieve such a designation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

A few things:
1) THe Iron Fist might not have had any missiles at this point, we we knoe they are expensive and had somewhat rare production facilities (relative to other weapons, speculation based on Starfighters of Adumar)

What do the Iron Fist's missiles have to do with anything?

2) Just as both the Enterprise and the Nimitz are classified as "Super carriers" based on their sheer size, I would expect the same to be applied to SDs, perhaps any ship of that type more then 2 km long would recieve such a designation.

An Imperator is a destroyer by Imperial scale. The Imperator is also primarily skewed toward more heavy combat and multi-purpose roles than simply its carrying capacity. There's the dinky frigate sized Escort Carrier, the Trade Federation "Battleship" Light Carriers and we know there's the Marvel Fleet Carrier form Giel's fleet with the split bow, and the Executor's mass is inordinately invested toward giant hangars (especially if they're as expansive as shown in that Rebel Assault 2 game aboard the Terror). Thus by Imperial scales, I thought it'd be a supercarrier.

[Stormbringer]

Also add to it the fact that Zsinj seems to either be a poor commander or past his prime. While he was supposedly pretty good he seems to have rotted. I mean see him falling pray to overconfindence and repeating old tricks. And he got his ass handed to him several times.

Also his command style is one of arrogance and capricious cruelty. For instance his execution of his bridge officer, in Solo Command. It's stupid stiff like that which no doubt hampered his command crew further crippling his command.

A crappy leader backed by a command crew more suited to keeping their heads down than actually fighting would make a the situation worse. If the Iron Fist was stripped to a degree poor command would no doubt make the situation worse.

[Ender]

What do the Iron Fist's missiles have to do with anything?

It's a major weapons system. The fact that nearly a quarter of its weapons might not have had an amunition supports your point.

An Imperator is a destroyer by Imperial scale. The Imperator is also primarily skewed toward more heavy combat and multi-purpose roles than simply its carrying capacity. There's the dinky frigate sized Escort Carrier, the Trade Federation "Battleship" Light Carriers and we know there's the Marvel Fleet Carrier form Giel's fleet with the split bow, and the Executor's mass is inordinately invested toward giant hangars (especially if they're as expansive as shown in that Rebel Assault 2 game aboard the Terror). Thus by Imperial scales, I thought it'd be a supercarrier.

I was just suggesting that the super designation being given on a matter of scale or power, not based on role.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What do the Iron Fist's missiles have to do with anything?

It's a major weapons system. The fact that nearly a quarter of its weapons might not have had an amunition supports your point.

Oh. I thought you were refering to something that had been said and I couldn't find what the hell you were talking about.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't forget the Mon Remonda was specifically mentioned to be a non-standard Mon Cal cruiser compared to the other MC cruisers in Solo's Task force (tougher and more durable... and it carried eight fighter wings for crissake) Its quite probable that, like the Home One, it was actually much larger than the questionable 1.2 Km stated for most Mon Cal cruisers.

[Lord Pounder]

My opinion is that Iron Fist in that engagement was a full SSD, However it is an SSD that has been chased quite a bit and been in several full scale battles. Add in that the Wraiths had been systimatically destroying all it;s support and resource centres. By the battle of Kuat and the skermish afterwards Iron Fist can't have been close to factory specs. ALso it goes back to Shield/Sensor domes. Piggy is supposed to have killed a shield generator. As such Iron Fist was naked on one side and my guess is that is the side Solo's task force was facing. According to the Wraith Books Mon Remonda was far from a normal Mon Cal and indeed was more than capable of fighting ISDs and better. It is definately stated that the Mon Remonda had better shield generators than a standard Mon Cal like Mon Karen. IIRC a normal Mon Cal can actually stand up to a ISD because of it's superior generators as such i would surmise that the Heavy Armor and Sheilds of the Mon Remonda made it capable of going toe to toe with an understrength SSD like Iron Fist.

[Robert Treder]

Its quite probable that, like the Home One, it was actually much larger than the questionable 1.2 Km stated for most Mon Cal cruisers.

Thing is, the EU gives numbers for the Mon Remonda's length (see EGVV, others), and it's less than a mile. Unfortunately, there's no film evidence to contradict this with, so I think we're stuck with a small-ass Mon Remonda.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Eh if we really have to I say we round it up to preserve the intent of the Executor-class. After all, it was designed and constructed in the era of the New Republic, and has a solid industrial base and mass-production yards to support it.

I would be suprised if the Mon Calamari were able to churn out cruisers routinely around the scale of Home One.

[Alyeska]

First up:

In Rogue Squadron: Iron Fist, by Aaron Allston, two Executor-class command ships, the Iron Fist, and the Razor's Kiss, were engaged by a Rebel taskforce known to contain the MC80B cruiser Mon Remonda, a Nebulon-B escort frigate, a Marauder-class corvette, and a Quasar Fire-class picket ship, and an unknown possible contingent of other support craft and fighters.

I do not know if other ships were en route.

The Razor's Kiss and Iron Fist had blasted out of the Kuat yards, and directly engaged the Imperial destroyers Mauler and Gilded Claw as she attempted to escape.

The Iron Fist got one of its topside domes blown off (IIRC) and lost half its shield strength (again, IIRC). The Razor's Kiss was under only slight automated control, having only Zsinj's commando team onboard.

Supposedly, from the broadside angle directly in-front of the Iron Fist, the Mon Remonda could engage it with more weapons than it could bring to bare.

Anyone else want to try and explain this with me?

Its very simple. The Executor class has been repeatedly shown to be under armed and under defended for a ship its size. The level of protection is actualy fairly consistent between the EU and ROTJ. The biggest problem from this novel is dome issue.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't be absurd. Canon instances of an entire Rebel fleet of up to a dozen heavy Calamarian cruisers (including possible 1 or 2 Home One-type battleships/battlecruisers) plus support ships and fighters, combined with suicide transports, all converging on the Executor at once is not congruent with a supposedly 1.2 km Calamarian battlecruiser outgunning and/or scaring off an Executor-class under normal circumstances.

EU examples are tainted by the assumption of an imaginary 8 km "Super-class."

[Alyeska]

Don't be absurd. Canon instances of an entire Rebel fleet of up to a dozen heavy Calamarian cruisers plus support ships and fighters, combined with suicide transports, all converging on the Executor at once is not congruent with a supposedly 1.2 km Calamarian battlecruiser outgunning and/or scaring off an Executor-class under normal circumstances.

EU examples are tainted by the assumption of an imaginary 8 km "Super-class."

Actually cannon supports the EU. The Executor was surounded by no more then 6 cruisers and was under relatively light fire from these cruisers until Ackbar ordered concentrated fire on it. The EU and Cannon has repeatedly shown that the Executor class is primarily a command ship. Its size while massive is quite under armed. Had the Executor been built properly it should have been able to take on two dozen Mon-Cal cruisers at once and win. Instead it falls to ~6 Mon-Cal cruisers that were only sporadicaly firing at it until the last moment. Bacta War shows how an SSD when without fighter escort can be taken on by a combined arms force. Solo Command shows how a newer Mon-Cal cruiser can bring more weapons broadside then a SSD has forward.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually cannon supports the EU.

That's canon.

Its size while massive is quite under armed.

Agreed. It is more supercarrier/command vessel than uber-dreadnought. According to Saxton's analysis, it may mount no heavier weapons than an Imperator-class.

Had the Executor been built properly it should have been able to take on two dozen Mon-Cal cruisers at once and win.

Agreed--to a point. There's no real way of knowing how powerful such a ship should be, but the Eclipse was more durable by at least an order of magnitude, IMHO.

Instead it falls to ~6 Mon-Cal cruisers that were only sporadicaly firing at it until the last moment.

I'd like you to back up that 6 claim. There were at least 10 Mon Cals there, IMHO. Ackbar ordered the whole fleet to attack. Additionally, we know warheads carryable by B-Wings have yields enough to tear apart Nebulon-Bs. Imagine the yield of the Gallofree transports-come-fireships.

Also, this "sporadically firing until the last moment" turns out to be a red herring. All of the vessels needed to synchronize their attacks, because the Executor's wattage threshold would not be breached by sporadic fire before hand. In fact, ALL that could take it down was massed fire over a brief period. This is not evidence of the Executor's weakness, but simply a function of SW shields.

Additionally, the super-close range prevented the heavy weapons of the Executor from being effective or adequately able to target the cruisers (just as the Imperators' did). The lighter gunports of the Mon Cals suffered no such problem due to their superior flexibility and manuverability, which produced the odd affect of making the Mon Cal cruisers actually outgun the Imperial vessels since their heaviest weapons were too unwieldly and constrained to be very effective.

Bacta War shows how an SSD when without fighter escort can be taken on by a combined arms force.

The Lusankya was not a warship. It was ambushed by hundreds of heavy torpedoes intended for space station-mounting. These were very heavy warheads and they had the suppport of 2 ISDs, the Alderaanian War Cruiser, and whatever firepower brought to bare by the fighter complement of the capital ships + Rogue Squadron.

How the heavy heavy bombardment of a non-warship proves a single 1.2 km cruiser (that according to stats mounts no more weapons than the old MC80) should be able to scare off an Executor, I don't know.

Solo Command shows how a newer Mon-Cal cruiser can bring more weapons broadside then a SSD has forward.

Can you (or someone else) provide a synopsis of the Solo Command end battle for me so we can interprete and review it and so I can get a real idea of what was going on?

[Alyeska]

(in response to your last statement)

I think I can probably pour through Solo Command and list the sequence of the battle.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thanks.