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The Tears of Palpatine wrote:Ah, the Chiss. The O-so-clever blue-skinned master race, created and much-vaunted by Timothy Zahn.

Who are the Chiss? The Chiss are a semi-civilised race of Communist xenophobes. The Chiss are possessed of a blue epidermis, glowing red eyes, and black hair, without exception—the fact that they are a derivative race of homines sapientes notwithstanding. Indeed, the uniformity of physical appearance is a chilling suggestion of the sort of eugenics programmes that the Chiss must be fond of using, as humans do not have uniform characteristics to the extent possessed by the Chiss without extensive external interference.

The Chiss first appeared as a group in Mr Zahn’s Vision of the Future, in which we, the audience, were introduced to the Hand of Thrawn, a group of traitors who consort with Imperial exiles—all of whom are absorbed in the cult of the Leader (in this case, none other than the strategic imbecile Grand Admiral Thrawn). The Hand of Thrawn has since made reappearances in Elaine Cunningham’s “Red Sky, Blue Flame” and Michael A. Stackpole’s Dark Tide II: Ruin.

Their entire civilisation is governed by a single, unitary and highly centralised government, controlled by four ruling families on the capitol world, Csilla. They do not use any form of capitalism, as economic affairs are all handled by that selfsame oligarchical government (cf. Karl Marx’s mandate that Communist governments should eradicate capital). They have a “cultured contempt” for sub-Chiss, and consider all other races and species to be “primitive and barbaric.” Only those who adhere to the philosophies and codes of conduct of the Chiss are esteemed by the Chiss. (These data courtesy of Gamer #5.)

Nowhere is Chiss racial self-aggrandisement better displayed than in the conduct of one Mitth’raw’nuruodo, better known as Grand Admiral Thrawn. Admiral Thrawn had an enlisted crewman brutally executed for a minor failure; Gamer #5 explicitly states that had Ables’man Pieterson been a Chiss, he would not have been executed. In other words, like a typical racist, Admiral Thrawn demonstrated an abominable double-standard determined solely by the colour of one’s skin.

Many people like to assert that the Chiss destroyed the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium, based on the New Republic Historical Council’s statement that “another force from deep in the Unknown Regions had already attacked the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium on the opposite front, leaving devastation in their wake,” and then that “recent interpretations of the data have suggested that the attackers were the Chiss, the blue-skinned humanoid race of which Imperial Grand Admiral Thrawn was a member” (The Essential Chronology).

(The Historical Council also indicates that the Alliance High Command considered the Ssi-ruuk such a threat that the elimination thereof would require a paltry “dozen Nebulon-B frigates and smaller vessels at their disposal”—a task force which pales before the awful majesty of such mighty Imperial groups as the Death Squadron, with its twenty battleships and armada of accompanying lesser vessels. That is to say, if the Chiss were responsible for having eliminated the Ssi-ruuk, it is a task of such minor import that it would not even rate a full assault fleet under the Empire.)

The Chiss are also an only marginally capable civilisation, the constant contentions of Mittyphiles notwithstanding. Gamer #5 indicates that Chiss vessels lack navicomputers, and are unable to safely leave Chiss-held territory. The Chiss utilise a large network of navigation beacons (cf. Karl Marx’s mandate that Communist governments should be able to tightly control transportation). This more recent datum reveals that the New Republic Historical Council’s suggestion that the Chiss may have destroyed the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium is inaccurate.

The Chiss’ military growth and development so retarded, not only are they ideologically opposed to preëmptive strikes, they are logistically incompetent to do so—they only repel foreign threats which invade their territory, but are unable to venture beyond the borders of their colonial empire, a side-effect of their peculiarly backward navigational system. Chiss clawcraft have navicomputers... but they are, in fact, amalgamations of Chiss and Imperial technology, and are unavailable to the Chiss proper. In fact, according to Gamer #5, the Chiss “do not have a starship larger than an escort frigate (about 300 meters in length).” A clear indication that the Chiss are grossly behind the galactic standard technological level.

This is the vaunted “Chiss superman.” A technologically and militarily backward isolationist, with a healthy dose of Ingsoc-style societal values and Communist police-state leanings. Indeed, Star Wars is a place of colourful analogues... blue ’sabres, blue milk, and blue Stalinists. Big Brother is watching you... and he has glowing red eyes.

Just thought I'd help add a new perspective to all the Mittyphiles/Zahnites out there.

Don't have nav computers? WTF? They've been in an alliance with the Empire for decades!

No they haven't.

The Chiss are xenophobes who refuse to admit the Hand of Thrawn even exists.

The Hand of Thrawn is a group of Chiss fanatics who adore Thrawn and a cache of traitorous Imperial officers who've abandoned their duties to consort with the Hand of Thrawn.

Only a handful of Hand of Thrawn vessels, and a small cluster of Clawcraft have Imperial navicomputers installed.

What's with 'strategic imbecile'?

And how did they devestate the Ssi-ruuk if they don't have navicomps?

They didn't.

The New Republic Historical Council supposed they might have.

Evidently, since the Chiss cannot really leave their own territory, that supposition is incorrect.

The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

I have got a problem

Ah. I failed to make the connection.

Indeed, the uniformity of physical appearance is a chilling suggestion of the sort of eugenics programmes that the Chiss must be fond of using, as humans do not have uniform characteristics to the extent possessed by the Chiss without extensive external interference.

This here I think is just an excuse to bash, we don't really see much change in other animal species on this planet either, but I doubt they're going around killing each other in eugenics programmes.

He also ignores that humans are different because they live/evolve in different areas and did so without artificial enviroments, I don't see a reason to conclude that the Chiss live in a similar manner as humans on Earth does.

The Chiss might simply look alike because the planetary enviroment they are on is similar enough to not create variations like on earth or because they live in buildings, iow. a highly artificial enviroment, like most technologically advanced species.
Or the variations are not noticeable to us.

At any rate, he better prove his assumptious statement or concede it, very unobjective of him.

Frankly, I'm now quite vary of anything this man might have to say, he damaged his credibility alot with baseless stuff like this.

Actually, scratch that, I don't really think I'll bothe with any of his conclusions, I'll just watch the sources and decide for myself and let this sad bastard sit there and bitch and moan into the night with that Mt. Everest sized chip on his shoulder.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Frankly, I'm now quite vary of anything this man might have to say, he damaged his credibility alot with baseless stuff like this.

Actually, scratch that, I don't really think I'll bothe with any of his conclusions, I'll just watch the sources and decide for myself and let this sad bastard sit there and bitch and moan into the night with that Mt. Everest sized chip on his shoulder.

Right. Everything he says is extrapolation from known-sources.

Just dismiss it without even considering what is said. Pick out something you don't like (which is really extrapolation from their National Socialistic view on their neighbors) and toss away the whole essay. How rational.

And doesn't the uniform jet-black hair, ceruelean tone skin, and same glowing red eyes strike you as somewhat odd? Normal humans are not that uniform. And they are very likely to be a human subspecies according to Gamer 5. So why so uniform. Given their police-state behavior, and racist viewpoints, eugenics doesn't seem like a big jump to me. Especially since the NR thought to contact Chiss bioscientists for Alpha Red (not neccessarily the better than NR, but guarenteed to not be infilitrated by Vong and to be tapped for such an endevour, they had to be quite competant).

But still ignore the evidence. Keep stroking that hard-on for everything Zahn, including the ultimate lackluster mysterious uber faction. Don't you just love Master Races?

Anyhow--to prove the point:

According to Gamer #5, The Sabosen ruling family controls "justice, health and education."

Karl Marx wrote:Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

That's nice. One of the four ruling families controls the doling out of health care, education, and justice. A group of oligarchs deciding for the public what is healthy and beneficial also decides what your children get taught, and what is and is not a violation of Chiss law.

The Inrokini ruling family controls "industry, science, and communication." The Csapla ruling family controls "colonial affairs, resource distribution and agriculture."

Karl Marx wrote:Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

The State also regulates not only who gets what health care, what your kids are taught, and what is and is not lawful, they also get to dictate what jobs are available to whom, what is produced, what is grown, what is researched, and what is known.

They don't have navicomputers either, so the state can only allow what dangerous expeditions they please to leave the bounds of the again-State-run beacon network that spans the colonial empire.

Gee...might that be control of transportation?

Karl Marx wrote:Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Mitth'raw'nuruodo was "reprimanded and placed under observation" by his superiors for having "challenged many deep-rooted Chiss philosophies" (109).

Sounds like the Secret Police knocking on your door about what your beliefs are about the military.

Gamer 5 wrote:It is important to note that the Chiss have no finances -- they have no money. Everything is provided by the state.

Emphasis mine.

The Chiss State controls all affairs, including but not limited to colonial administration, resource distribution, agriculture, military administration, foreign relations, industry, science, communication, justice, health and education.

They believe they must "seek to impose order on what they see as a chaotic and barbaric region" (Schwartz 109).

Gamer #5 says in no uncertain terms that if Cris Pieterson been a Chiss, he would not have been executed.

They have a “cultured contempt” for sub-Chiss, and consider all other races and species to be “primitive and barbaric.” Only those who adhere to the philosophies and codes of conduct of the Chiss are esteemed by the Chiss.

They're insular racists who refuse to even awknowledge those who disagree with the mere philosophy of pre-eminence. Yet they think even those traitors so much superior to non-Chiss they can't bare to do anything other than exile them. Meanwhile, Thawn executes a crewman for what was probably not his fault.

Gamer 5 wrote:Chiss are extremely loyal to their own kind and look down upon other aliens as barbaric and immature. Only by proving that he adheres to Chiss disciplines can a non-Chiss gain the loyalty and respect of the cerulean-skinned people.

Gamer 5 wrote:Despite their growing borders, the Chiss still foster a cultured contempt for other species, and believe in isolation and preservation of their heritage.

Jaina felt a cold calm come over Jag Fel as his hands slowly unknotted. “Where I come from, Chief Fey’lya, I am in the minority. I am the alien. If you remember anything from the history of your precious Rebellion, it is that Thrawn was uncompromising, and that is a trait of his people. I was raised among them, raised with them, judged by their standards. I met those standards. I exceeded those standards.”

Emphasis mine.

They're backward isolationists, Communists, and racists. Live with it.

Right. Everything he says is extrapolation from known-sources.

Except the part I talked about ofcourse.
That part was rather transparent, and the point stands about the man himself.

They're backward isolationists, Communists, and racists. Live with it.

Show me where I argued that point, I believe it will be rather hard to call into question what I have not argued against though.

And yeah, I am rather dubious of anything posted by him, he's got issues.

Not really.

He derides the worship of the silly uberwank-ness of Zahn's creations.

Thrawn didn't even fair that well against an equal, Grand Admiral Zaarin.

He's a traitor to the Empire--misappropriated His Imperial Majesty's resources to set up a holdout of Chiss criminals and traitors in collaboration with Imperial deserters.

They should all be shot. Palpatine was correct to dispose of him before Operation Shadow Hand.

Zahn couldn't figure out that the galaxy had 25,000 + ISDs (published by WEG years before), and that a couple 10s of 1000s of clone cylinders and 200 ancient little dinky dreadnoughts wouldn't amount to much in a Empire-wide war. He didn't account for how Thrawn was running the Empire, and they never show him running a strategy--all we ever see is Thrawn's little task force running about--as if it alone is conquering the galaxy. Zahn couldn't figure out there were much bigger ships than the stock destroyer--Marvel showed this. He refused to awknowledge Marvel continuity OR Dark Empire, showing himself to be a royal prick. Marvel even featured characters disturbingly similar to Zahn's. Mara Jade and Shire Brie, and General Ska'ar and Admiral Thrawn.

Zahn later has the audacity to consider his own work needing to one-up and "fix" other authors' works for them (hint hint: LFL's job is continuity fixes; Zahn again is a presumptious ass). He depicts a boogeyman of the uberChiss (with no evidence; no capships, no observed threat, no grand armies--diddly) and how they'll end the galaxy and bring back Thrawn (again). The worst is how the Senate shits themselves like 6 year olds confronted by C'thulhu. It practically fawns after his own trilogy over and over. He also ludacriously suggests some political aide was some vastly important right hand that Mara (of course), Thrawn (of course), and Vader were all partial replacements of. Mara was merely one of Palpatine's Hands, and Thrawn was another Grand Admiral who found himself dead when he became too ambitious. Palpatine was a Sith firstly and foremostly. How dare he equate Mara and Thrawn as Vader's (a canon character) equals.

But a lot of this anger is just at how Zahn helped start the scale errors and continuity monkey-wrenches. That combined with all the undeserved fawning him and his works get.

His imbecile admiral part was far-fetched, his eugenics program was far-fetched also, however his assesment of Chiss military technology and political spectrum was, in my opinion, correct. I mean all the way through the NJO series people on this board have been saying; 'The Chiss are gonna show up and kick the Vong's ass!!!!!'.

Come on, The Hand of Thrawn clearly identified the Chiss ability to wage war, and more importantly their limitations.

The article leans heavily on flame-baiting, but it's analysis is hard to fault.

And Thrawn was a strategic imbecile. He couldn't leave an Empire that survived a day without him. He was a master of tactics, but we never see him working with other admirals along a whole front.

He was a strategic imbecile in that he failed to see the big-picture and long-term, and his campiagn was rendered effectively irrelevent by His Imperial Majesty.

Okay let me get this straight, your contention is that Thrawn was a strategic imbecile for failing to forsee his own death? This is the largest leap in logic ever!

Clearly someone didn't read the Hand of Thrawn duology, where it was clearly outlined that Thrawn did indeed have a contigency plan. The Empire (as set up by Palpantine) was one that was ruled by the 'might is right' mentality rather than the rule of law. Thrawn had one year in which he was in charge, and you expect him to be able to;

1. Predict his own death
2. Totally re-vamp the power structure of the Empire while waging a war, such that it would survive without him, without at the same time crippiling his own ability to wage a war while having his resources tied up in securing Imperial resources

Thrawn managed to set up a 'long term thinking' strategy with the Imperial forces which he set up in the Unknown Regions, or did that escape your attention?

You are correct in that Palpantine hindered Thrawn's campaigns by the legacy that Palpentine left in the Empire proper, but in the Unknown Regions where Thrawn had a hegenomy, Thrawn clearly demonstrated his strategic credentials.

I wonder if you would consider Alexander the Great to be a 'strategic imbecile' for his failure to predict his own death...

You expect me to think he was a political genius and strategic master when he made...

1. No effort to court the warlords who had ships and materiel he needed.
2. Outright alienated the warlords.
3. Named NO proper second-in-command or successor, but instead kept his flagship's captain as a side-kick
4. Made no provisions for producing a clone of himself if he was killed.
5. Failed to properly manage a warfront.
6. Ignored his government.
7. Failed to utilize other Admirals.
8. Failed to post a defensive fleet at Wayland.
9. Depended on the Noghri when he had the Storm Commandoes and Royal Guardsmen at his disposal; one was totally loyal and and the other was not.
10. Did not attempt to duplicate the Spaarti cylinders, or at least move some elsewhere.

He had over a year and a half to do this.

As a result of these things, he kept the instrument of his death next to him, set up a front that could not be sustained, failed to communicate to his government, leaving them helpless, and alienated the warlords, leaving them to prey on his dying hegemon, when he could've added them to his own forces.

You are correct in that Palpantine hindered Thrawn's campaigns by the legacy that Palpentine left in the Empire proper, but in the Unknown Regions where Thrawn had a hegenomy, Thrawn clearly demonstrated his strategic credentials.

How so? He left a database in a big fortress full of Chiss criminals and Imperial deserters and traitors with only token forces.

Thrawn failed to quickly terminate Grand Admiral Zaarin, and the Unknown Regions contained mostly pirates and species as weak as the Chiss and Ssi-Ruuk.

His tricks are limited to superb use of tactics. His quality as a statesman and a strategist were poor. But after all, he was a traitor to the Empire, who cared mostly about his own power.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You expect me to think he was a political genius and strategic master when he made...

1. No effort to court the warlords who had ships and materiel he needed.

Expand on this, Thrawn was the supreme commander of all Imperial forces in the trilogy. Was this refuted by someone else?

2. Outright alienated the warlords.

Again, I don't remember reading that in either the trilogy or the duology

3. Named NO proper second-in-command or successor, but instead kept his flagship's captain as a side-kick

Largely agree with this, however Palleon was acting as SiC at the final battle, but once again I point out that Alexander did the same, was he too a strategic imbecile?

4. Made no provisions for producing a clone of himself if he was killed.

Yes he did. Read the duology

5. Failed to properly manage a warfront.

Explain this please

6. Ignored his government.

Cite an example please.

7. Failed to utilize other Admirals.

Again where? I don't remember reading anywhere in EU where Thrawn alienated other Admirals. Remember that he was the last Grand Admiral (even to the point where the NR didn't even consider him to ge a genuine GA because they thought they accounted for all of them).

8. Failed to post a defensive fleet at Wayland.

No fleet, but there was a garrison, and again it makes no difference since all a fleet could do was to stop another fleet, but in couldn't BDZ the planet since it was vital to it's resources

9. Depended on the Noghri when he had the Storm Commandoes and Royal Guardsmen at his disposal; one was totally loyal and and the other was not.

Read the duology, Thrawn had guardsmen in his stormtrooper regiments. The Noghri were 100% loyal, only after Leia Organa Solo revealed herself as Leia Skywalker Organa Solo, did they become un-reliable.

10. Did not attempt to duplicate the Spaarti cylinders, or at least move some elsewhere.

Mentioned to Palleon that it would need to be done eventually.

He had over a year and a half to do this.

He also had to fight a war against the Rebels, and in case you didn't catch it, should his death not have occured, he would have won.

As a result of these things, he kept the instrument of his death next to him, set up a front that could not be sustained, failed to communicate to his government, leaving them helpless, and alienated the warlords, leaving them to prey on his dying hegemon, when he could've added them to his own forces.

Again this is Palpy's legacy (as witnessed how the Empire began to whittle away until Thrawn arrived and started rebuilding it), not Thrawns!

Crown wrote:You are correct in that Palpantine hindered Thrawn's campaigns by the legacy that Palpentine left in the Empire proper, but in the Unknown Regions where Thrawn had a hegenomy, Thrawn clearly demonstrated his strategic credentials.

How so? He left a database in a big fortress full of Chiss criminals and Imperial deserters and traitors with only token forces.

All the material that Thrawn had used to build up in the UR, were expresly supplied to him by Palpy. And I prefer the term 'Chiss ex-patriots' to 'criminals' as the latter implies devious and dis-honourable, where as the former is actually accurate and not emotive. Also did you read the duology? The 'database in a big fortress full of Chiss criminals and Imperial deserters and traitors with only token forces' had a sphere of influece larger than the Imperial Remnant. All this was expanded upon what Thrawn started by his SiC.

Thrawn failed to quickly terminate Grand Admiral Zaarin, and the Unknown Regions contained mostly pirates and species as weak as the Chiss and Ssi-Ruuk.

First of all, who? Please tell me you aren't using a game to make your case. And second of all, how do you know what is in the UR? You know the name it's self pretty much implies the answer there. And third, I thought we were in agreement that the Chiss themselves did not infact stop the Ssi-Ruuk.

His tricks are limited to superb use of tactics. His quality as a statesman and a strategist were poor. But after all, he was a traitor to the Empire, who cared mostly about his own power.

Again. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Have you read the trilogy or the duology?

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You expect me to think he was a political genius and strategic master when he made...

1. No effort to court the warlords who had ships and materiel he needed.

Expand on this, Thrawn was the supreme commander of all Imperial forces in the trilogy. Was this refuted by someone else?

Essential Chronology. He isolated Prince-Admiral Krennel, who had a fiefdom the NR thought large enough to support the construction of DS scale battlestations, and the Pentastar Allignment, which composed most of the Oversector Outer--Tarkin's territory. All that territory, troops, and resources untapped.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:2. Outright alienated the warlords.

Again, I don't remember reading that in either the trilogy or the duology

See above.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:3. Named NO proper second-in-command or successor, but instead kept his flagship's captain as a side-kick

Largely agree with this, however Palleon was acting as SiC at the final battle, but once again I point out that Alexander did the same, was he too a strategic imbecile?

Bullshit. The golden boy of tactics couldn't concern himself to so much as appoint a designated successor, or find a real second-in-command. That is lazy and incompetant.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:4. Made no provisions for producing a clone of himself if he was killed.

Yes he did. Read the duology

How about a plan that doesn't take 10 years and result in the wasting of what was left of the Empire? Even Thrawn couldn't have won by that point. If he had Spaarti cylinders, he should've had one ready to clone him immediately if he died.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:5. Failed to properly manage a warfront.

Explain this please

Read the Thrawn Trilogy. Do you ever, ONCE see him confering with a council of fleet commanders or the High Command? Other Admirals? No. Everything appears done by Thrawn and his do-all little task force.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:6. Ignored his government.

Cite an example please.

Contacts no Moffs, no members of the Ruling Circle, doesn't have his government aboard his ship, with him (Napoleon worked it like that) and never is said to be managing the government. As said in the Chronology, he took power from the Moffs and set a precedent. But he never worked with them. His political ignorance helped accelerate Empire's destruction. He never even tried.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:7. Failed to utilize other Admirals.

Again where? I don't remember reading anywhere in EU where Thrawn alienated other Admirals. Remember that he was the last Grand Admiral (even to the point where the NR didn't even consider him to ge a genuine GA because they thought they accounted for all of them).

Did you actually READ the Thrawn Trilogy. No Admirals are ever refered to. No other fleets, no other commands. The highest ranking officer I saw other than Thrawn was Captains. This is unacceptable. Where are the major invasion fleets? Where are any of the management? Thrawn tried to do it all on his own, and just like he alienated Krennel before, he likely alienated other Admirals as he did the warlords.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:8. Failed to post a defensive fleet at Wayland.

No fleet, but there was a garrison, and again it makes no difference since all a fleet could do was to stop another fleet, but in couldn't BDZ the planet since it was vital to it's resources

Bullshit. He should never have left C'boath there, and with a fleet in place his takeover would not have happened, nor could have Luke and company succeeded. You protect your assets. He left all his eggs in one basket and recieved what one should expect for leaving a vital target completely unprotected against possible assault. Even if Luke had failed, where do you think the Rebel fleet that assaulted Bilbringi would head next?

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:9. Depended on the Noghri when he had the Storm Commandoes and Royal Guardsmen at his disposal; one was totally loyal and and the other was not.

Read the duology, Thrawn had guardsmen in his stormtrooper regiments. The Noghri were 100% loyal, only after Leia Organa Solo revealed herself as Leia Skywalker Organa Solo, did they become un-reliable.

He KNEW their dedication to Vader and his progeny. By sending them directly into proximity with her, he took a risk that should've been obvious.

His Guardsman and Storm Commandos could've been extracted and used for a riskless raid. Hell, why didn't he just have her killed and her children's DNA and her DNA collected for cloning.

He took a COMPLETELY unneccesary risk sending Noghri after someone they might become dedicated to.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:10. Did not attempt to duplicate the Spaarti cylinders, or at least move some elsewhere.

Mentioned to Palleon that it would need to be done eventually.

Know, as usual he was interested in pet projects like the Tierce project, and wanted to move a cylinder for cloning C'boath.

He had months to move at least a cache of them elsewhere where mass production of the cylinders could begin. He neither protected, nor spred out, nor secured his vital cloning facility. This is a act of willful neglect on his part.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:He had over a year and a half to do this.

He also had to fight a war against the Rebels, and in case you didn't catch it, should his death not have occured, he would have won.

Chronology says for over six months he staged minor raids on the Republic border. His war did not intensify until Sluis Van. He wasted time and alienated the warlords he should've been recuiting. As it was, six of them had enough might to succeed where Thrawn failed a couple months after his death, and siezed Coruscant. What's that tell you?

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:As a result of these things, he kept the instrument of his death next to him, set up a front that could not be sustained, failed to communicate to his government, leaving them helpless, and alienated the warlords, leaving them to prey on his dying hegemon, when he could've added them to his own forces.

Again this is Palpy's legacy (as witnessed how the Empire began to whittle away until Thrawn arrived and started rebuilding it), not Thrawns!

Bullshit.

Thrawn had the ability to nominate a successor, rebuild relations with the warlords, and actually paid attention to his government, or bothered to stick a cylinder someplace so the house of cards that depended on him wouldn't fall because he could be cloned immediately.

He didn't bother to do ANY of this. That's negligant, and incompetant. Palpatine didn't choose for Thrawn to be more fixated on projects like clone freaks like Tierce and cells of fanatics on the Outer Rim and at Niruaun that he couldn't be bothered to establish a relationship with the other Imperial holdouts and warlords, or even fucking name a successor in case things went wrong. That's stupid. There's no other word for it.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crown wrote:You are correct in that Palpantine hindered Thrawn's campaigns by the legacy that Palpentine left in the Empire proper, but in the Unknown Regions where Thrawn had a hegenomy, Thrawn clearly demonstrated his strategic credentials.

How so? He left a database in a big fortress full of Chiss criminals and Imperial deserters and traitors with only token forces.

All the material that Thrawn had used to build up in the UR, were expresly supplied to him by Palpy.

Wrong. Palpatine provided resources to establish Imperial hegemony in the Unknown Regions. This materiel HAD to be misappropriated for large caches of it to be laying in Hand of Thrawn vaults.

Crown wrote:And I prefer the term 'Chiss ex-patriots' to 'criminals' as the latter implies devious and dis-honourable, where as the former is actually accurate and not emotive.

And I like to call Palestinian suicide bombers martyrs. Look--they disobeyed Chiss law and directive and were exiled and their very existance is denied by the Chiss government. They're neither welcome nor even fit to be awknowledged. If Stalin sends you to the gulags--you were a criminal in the Soviet Union. They got exiled for breaking laws. They disobeyed their state and broke laws. They are traitors and criminals.

Crown wrote:[Also did you read the duology? The 'database in a big fortress full of Chiss criminals and Imperial deserters and traitors with only token forces' had a sphere of influece larger than the Imperial Remnant. All this was expanded upon what Thrawn started by his SiC.

Take a look at Saxton's analysis of the UR in the SWTC. Also observe the map in AOTC and Jocasta's comments. All of the galactic disk is explored and encorperated into galactic society. The Unknown Regions is the galactic halo around the galaxy--mostly empty space. WOW. They have all this empty space with no appreciable resources other than a couple fighters and some gunboats and a fortress. No other resources are cited.

The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

I have got a problem

What's SiC?

Crown wrote:Thrawn failed to quickly terminate Grand Admiral Zaarin, and the Unknown Regions contained mostly pirates and species as weak as the Chiss and Ssi-Ruuk.

First of all, who? Please tell me you aren't using a game to make your case.[/quote]

Oh one of those "selective canon" types. Look: game storylines are official as much as books. Furthermore, the story of Maarek Steele (the player in TIE Fighter) is retold in books ANYWAY. It happened, and there's nothing else to say about that.

Grand Admiral Zaarin defected and attempted to capture Palpatine in coup'd'etat. Despite Thrawn being on his tail, he managed to outmanuver and drag out the campiagn with Thrawn despite the latter having all of the Empire as support.

Crown wrote:And second of all, how do you know what is in the UR? You know the name it's self pretty much implies the answer there. And third, I thought we were in agreement that the Chiss themselves did not infact stop the Ssi-Ruuk.

We know what is in the Unknown Regions, and what we don't know is irrelevent--argument from ignorance.

We do know that Thrawn fought some primitives and pirates and raiders. People on similar tech. levels as the Ssi-ruuk and Chiss. That is: damn pathetic compared to the civilized galaxy. Just because it is mysterious does not mean it is uber.

The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

And no the Chiss did not. They can't leave their own territory.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:His tricks are limited to superb use of tactics. His quality as a statesman and a strategist were poor. But after all, he was a traitor to the Empire, who cared mostly about his own power.

Again. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Have you read the trilogy or the duology?

He is a traitor--fact. That's why Palpatine orchestrated his elimination.

His qualities as a stateman are abominable--fact. See above. He couldn't negotiate with warlords which would've made his war much much easier, and he rarely actually administered his government, his High Command, and the other fleet commanders, as seen by their total absence throughout the Thrawn Trilogy.

His strategy was poor--he made extremely poor and often downright stupid mistakes regarding long-term management of his Empire.

He cared only about his own power--no great threat to the Chiss was ever discovered. Not that the Hand of Thrawn would make a difference anyway--they'd be steamrolled by something the NR or GE could take EASILY. It was their information that made them dangerous, remember? His little cells of clones, his clone, and his base full of fanatics were perfectly situated for another attempt at reconquest of the galaxy. Combine that with the Hand's Chiss recruits ranting about threats with no evidence like Adolph Hitler shrieking about Bolshevik hordes...and you'll see what I mean. Thrawn made more sense as a villian than an anti-hero anyway. After all, he is a mass-murderer and a racist bigot.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Except the part I talked about ofcourse.
That part was rather transparent, and the point stands about the man himself.

*snip*

And yeah, I am rather dubious of anything posted by him, he's got issues.

Ad hominem dismissal of ideas not pallatable to you. You're not going to even consider it? Your logic is quite flawed here.

clarification on grand admirals - in the thrawn trilogy, it was stated they'd all be nuetralized. are there sources that counteract this?

All of the Grand Admirals except Thrawn are dead by the TTT. Except for Grand Admiral Grant, who defected to the NR.

I'm talking about normal fleet admirals which seemingly don't exist in the TTT.

-scratches cheek- true, they cant all have been killed.

This is probably just assumptions but..

They've stated that most of the Imperial Fleet is assigned to permanent duty babying various systems that otherwise would be openly hostile to the Empire or be costly in other forms if it wasn't guarded and protected. So at most, task forces are generally a very percentage of the fleet.

As for Thrawn and Pellaeon's and the other captains in Thrawn's primary task force as to that of today's task force.

Thrawn is the Admiral, and Pellaeon is the captain of the flagship (Carrier). We do know that Thrawn uses multiple task forces when he isn't present, maybe the commanders of those fleets aren't worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things (such as who here knows the admirals and vice admirals commanding the US Fleets in the Persian Gulf). The only commanders mentioned are those that are involved when Thrawn is personally engaged in action.

It's preposterous to say Thrawn could micromanage every campaign that brought the New Republic to its knees.. not to say he didn't put in his creative input as mentioned by Wedge, or his tactics didn't flavor his subordinates actions.

As for Thrawn being a traitor, could you cite that please? According to VOTF, he and Palpatine orchestrated his supposed banishment from Imperial Court. And you say traitor as if it was a bad thing. Considering what Thrawn was really setting up for, is that really a bad thing?

Palpatine was controlling the Noghri. Palpatine orchestrated Thrawn's termination before Operation Shadow Hand. This is explicit in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And your excuses don't pan out--Thrawn doesn't have a political staff, a staff for administering his own task force, and never refers to, communicates, with, or otherwise awknowledges other task forces with other commanders carrying out the overall strategy. Likewise with the government. You can say "maybe they weren't mentioned" but point was we never see them mentioned. Argument from Ignorance fallacy.

All that matters is he was never observed to have any staff nor any communication with other commanders or the government.

Point is--he NEVER apparently orchestrates an overall strategy with other task forces and their commanders. Did they just go off on their own? Did they just mop up whatever move Thrawn made? What? A Supreme Commander has to run the overall strategy of his campiagn. Thrawn never does this.

Setting up for what? He betrayed the Empire and was a power-hungry dictator guilty of mass-murder and racist bigotry. He's nothing worth worshipping.

[Re: the Noghri]

Illuminatus Primus wrote:He KNEW their dedication to Vader and his progeny. By sending them directly into proximity with her, he took a risk that should've been obvious.

His Guardsman and Storm Commandos could've been extracted and used for a riskless raid. Hell, why didn't he just have her killed and her children's DNA and her DNA collected for cloning.

He took a COMPLETELY unneccesary risk sending Noghri after someone they might become dedicated to.

The problems with assassinating someone with Jedi precognition should be blindingly obvious.

As it was, both the standard Imperial commandos and Noghri commandos failed in their goal. Read the book: he sent both after her. Both failed.

Read the book: he tried to capture them.

And however failing the Imperial commandos were, at least they weren't a complete security risk like Noghri.

Also, the Spaarti cylinder bit should've allowed Thrawn to cook up a stable clone of C'boath and terminate the whacko one. And all he needed to do was send a slug into Organa and mind-copy her and take samples from the fetii and her.

Point was, there were options available, and he chose the one with the greatest security risk and likely one of them with one of the lowest probabilities for success.

Let me ask you this: was it common knowledge that Leia was the daughter of Darth Vader? As of RotJ, only Luke, Han, and Anakin (since deceased) knew.