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Does anyone else know more about chain-of-command systems in the Imperial Navy?

In my limited experience, it always looks kind of thin.

For instance, TESB. Fleet Admiral Ozzel (Saxton's classification based on his insignia) fails and is executed. Apparently, despite this being an elite Squadron (at least six Star Destroyers) and a Fleet Admiral's billet, he has no chief of staff, no XO, no subunit commander that can be promoted to fill the slot.

So Captain Piett is not only given command of the entire squadron, but he soon got full Fleet Admiral rank boards as well! Say what you will about Piett, but is this fast-tracking a little too severely? Is there no man better placed than he?

In HTTE through TLC, it happens again. The commander is no less than a Grand Admiral, but there is no one under him. He has no chief of staff, no dedicated XO. So poor Pellaeon has to double as his XO and Chief of Staff and his aide in addition to his no-doubt substantial duties as Captain of a 37000 man vessel (Plus stormtroopers.)

He later gets the Katana fleet, and distributes them to his Star Destroyer Captains for task forces. Despite that, he STILL has nobody ranked higher than Captain! I wonder whether all his captains were up to the sudden increased load of commanding what it at least an Imperial Line equivalent. His captains have to double as his staff for various items (like terms of surrendering, deciding the GROUND deployment...)

Is this just the way in the Imperial Navy? Are there counterexamples of a more proper, densely filled chain of command (other than the Imp Sourcebook?) If this really is the way it goes, is there any reason? Rapid expansion, leading to a dearth in mid-ranked officers perhaps?

The New Republic Navy looks better. Solo still had no easily visible staff (he had his Mon Cal Captain, and Wedge,) so his subordinate commanders do a lot of planning. But at least by Black Fleet Crisis, there were a more "filled" staff, like Gavin's role as Director of Flight Operations, a host of XOs, some intelligence and operations officers under Abaht...

SMALL EDIT: Yes, I know the Imperial Sourcebook shows a chain of command. But I just want to know why it doesn't show up more in the novels.

Almost all the novels are post-Endor.

Over 50% of the Imperial Navy's gone by this time. Over 75% of the Galactic Empire is gone.

Make of that what you will.

When the Imperial Japanese Navy was down to about 10 working vessels, the last fleet that sailed still had a fleet commander, a chief of staff, a commander for the destroyer squadron, no less than THREE subcommanders for the destroyer divisions and about 10 captains (one Rear Admiral for Yamato, one Captain for the Yahagi, and the rest are Commanders.) I'm pretty sure they had some other staff too.

The near destruction of the fleet is not a great excuse. Half the Imp Navy's vessels might be gone, but that just means 50% of the staffers (less than the number of ships, because staffers are often in land or base posts) are gone. And we are talking elite forces in all cases here. Out of all the Imperial Navy left, they can't spare ONE good set of staff?

Well Zahn's a moron and didn't realize Thrawn DID have to have a staff to run a war and government. He convienently forgot all the other proper Admirals.

EDIT: Chalk it up to Thrawn being unorthodox and not a very good strategist (while he was a superb tactician).

As for Piett--the Dark Lord had spoken. No one was going to argue or point out proper procedure. Proper procedure doesn't include executing officers in the crew pit for incompetance.

As bizarre as it sounds, Captain Piett was Admiral Ozzel's chief of staff, as well as the captain of the flagship. The Star Wars Encyclpedia says he "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet".

The Death Star II Expansion Set mentions a former naval aviator named Admiral Chiraneau, who was promoted at Admiral Piett's behest to serve as his aide; one can reasonably conclude that Chiraneau is Piett's chief of staff (although ordinarily a chief of staff to a flag officer is a post captain, not a flag officer in his own right).

There are at least two other flag officers known to have been present at the Battle of Endor: Admiral Harsk, who was one of Admiral Piett's subordinate task force commanders, and the unnamed "captain" of the Chimaera, who must have been a commodore at the very least (Captain Pellaeon was second in command at the time of the "captain's" death).

It is unknown how large Harrsk's task force was. However, if it was about the same strength as the Death Squadron's Star Destroyer component, then there ought to have been about four task force commanders at the Battle of Endor, possibly including Piett himself, and the unnamed "captain" of the Chimaera (a commodore at the very least).

If one of the unnamed task force commanders was aboard the communications ship, then the breakdown of command and control on the Imperial side becomes much clearer: At least three task force commanders were killed outright (Piett, the communications ship's task force commander, and the Chimaera's commodore), and at least one more was severely injured (Harrsk). With the principal commanders dead or badly wounded, the fog of war might prevent the orderly assumption of command, and individual captains would be left to their best discretion (some, like Captain Dorja, would be too conservative, whilst others, like the captain of the Devastator, would charge into the enemy ranks).

Really, the absence of staffs is a probably merely due to unfamiliarity with actual naval practise on the parts of Expanded Universe authors. For the same reason, the captain always seems to be on the bridge (one wonders what lieutenants are for), there is as often an executive officers as not, and officers routinely perform tasks for enlisted personnel. Indeed, rarely, if ever, are enlisted personnel mentioned at all.

In the case of Grand Admiral Thrawn, the total lack of a personal staff -- not even so much as a flag lieutenant or a flag secretary is mentioned -- is incredible. He is effectively dictator of the Empire, as well as a task force commander, in the original three books, and ought to have a general staff to assist in coordinating the campaign, as well as a staff for his personal task force, and perhaps a political staff, as well.

Publius

Publius wrote:As bizarre as it sounds, Captain Piett was Admiral Ozzel's chief of staff, as well as the captain of the flagship. The Star Wars Encyclpedia says he "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet".

Oh, really. Poor Piett. As if 280,000+ people on a SSD (and that's with the wrong 8km length) ain't enough to handle.

The Death Star II Expansion Set mentions a former naval aviator named Admiral Chiraneau, who was promoted at Admiral Piett's behest to serve as his aide; one can reasonably conclude that Chiraneau is Piett's chief of staff (although ordinarily a chief of staff to a flag officer is a post captain, not a flag officer in his own right).

Not a great problem, this one. Perhaps it is not standard US naval procedure now, but in WWII it is more popular. Kido Butai's CO was Vice Admiral Nagumo, the Chief of Staff was Rear Admiral Kusaka (just one rank apart IIRC in the scheme.)

A commodore (Saxton scheme, ISB diehards will call him an 'admiral') has a Line Captain as his adjutant (one to two ranks lower in Saxton's interpretation of Imperial Rank Scheme.) A full Fleet Admiral having an admiral of some sort as his chief won't be implausible at all.

There are at least two other flag officers known to have been present at the Battle of Endor: Admiral Harsk, who was one of Admiral Piett's subordinate task force commanders, and the unnamed "captain" of the Chimaera, who must have been a commodore at the very least (Captain Pellaeon was second in command at the time of the "captain's" death).

Are you sure he was promoted? In some cases, two 'captains' can share the same ship. Drysso and Varrscha shared the Virulence in Bacta War and both were supposedly Captains - with Drysso being senior.

Another meaningless nit: Pellaeon's superior may also be a Line Captain.

It is unknown how large Harrsk's task force was. However, if it was about the same strength as the Death Squadron's Star Destroyer component, then there ought to have been about four task force commanders at the Battle of Endor, possibly including Piett himself, and the unnamed "captain" of the Chimaera (a commodore at the very least).

Interesting. That does at least give us a little more realism.

Really, the absence of staffs is a probably merely due to unfamiliarity with actual naval practise on the parts of Expanded Universe authors. For the same reason, the captain always seems to be on the bridge (one wonders what lieutenants are for), there is as often an executive officers as not, and officers routinely perform tasks for enlisted personnel. Indeed, rarely, if ever, are enlisted personnel mentioned at all.

Actually, there was conscript Pietrson, under Ensign Conclazure and eventuallly executed by Thrawn. Officers doing the task of enlisted might just be their style due to an overabundance of conscripts - an example would be the Soviets.

We all know the real reason is because the EU authors are stupid. Have any ideas for Suspension of Disbelief reasons?

In the case of Grand Admiral Thrawn, the total lack of a personal staff -- not even so much as a flag lieutenant or a flag secretary is mentioned -- is incredible. He is effectively dictator of the Empire, as well as a task force commander, in the original three books, and ought to have a general staff to assist in coordinating the campaign, as well as a staff for his personal task force, and perhaps a political staff, as well.

I know. I was just wondering how pervasive this lack of staffers is throughout the Imperial military.

One may point out, that in just about every scene in the movies, the Imperial officers are on the bridge. The Admirals command staff would probably still be in the TOC or the tactical center or what ever it is called in the SW universe.

Also, I always figured Piett to be Ozzels XO of the fleet and then Admiral of the fleet upon Ozzels 'retirement'.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Publius wrote:The Death Star II Expansion Set mentions a former naval aviator named Admiral Chiraneau, who was promoted at Admiral Piett's behest to serve as his aide; one can reasonably conclude that Chiraneau is Piett's chief of staff (although ordinarily a chief of staff to a flag officer is a post captain, not a flag officer in his own right).

Not a great problem, this one. Perhaps it is not standard US naval procedure now, but in WWII it is more popular. Kido Butai's CO was Vice Admiral Nagumo, the Chief of Staff was Rear Admiral Kusaka (just one rank apart IIRC in the scheme.)

A commodore (Saxton scheme, ISB diehards will call him an 'admiral') has a Line Captain as his adjutant (one to two ranks lower in Saxton's interpretation of Imperial Rank Scheme.) A full Fleet Admiral having an admiral of some sort as his chief won't be implausible at all.

Firmus Piett's picture in Rebellion actually has him wearing a different rank plaque than The Empire Strikes Back -- that of a high admiral, rather than a fleet admiral. If one chooses to take that as an indication of his rank as of Return of the Jedi -- the Star Destroyer battle force at Endor is roughly equivalent to that of a Sector Group -- then Piett would rank as a naval component commander in chief at the sector level, and an admiral as a chief of staff would not at all be unrealistic.

Kido Butai is the air strike force of the Imperial Japanese Navy, is it not?

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Publius wrote:There are at least two other flag officers known to have been present at the Battle of Endor: Admiral Harsk, who was one of Admiral Piett's subordinate task force commanders, and the unnamed "captain" of the Chimaera, who must have been a commodore at the very least (Captain Pellaeon was second in command at the time of the "captain's" death).

Are you sure he was promoted? In some cases, two 'captains' can share the same ship. Drysso and Varrscha shared the Virulence in Bacta War and both were supposedly Captains - with Drysso being senior.

Another meaningless nit: Pellaeon's superior may also be a Line Captain.

Actually, it is certain that Gilad Pellaeon was not promoted, even after the Battle of Endor -- the Star Wars Encyclopedia describes him as having the rank of captain and the billet of second in command (executive officer). The presence of two "captains" within the ship's command structure is bad enough (it is simply not done in the United States Navy; an aircraft carrier may have three captains aboard -- the commanding officer, the commander, air wing, and the chief of staff -- but only the CO is part of the chain of command of the ship herself), but not impossible to explain.

Although, as you say, the nightmarish scenario of two captains within the chain of command -- CO and XO -- is possible in the Imperial Navy, it is preferable to assume that the former is in fact a line captain or a commodore (otherwise, one must conclude that Pellaeon was simply not deemed fit for command by the Imperial Navy at its height).

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Publius wrote:Really, the absence of staffs is a probably merely due to unfamiliarity with actual naval practise on the parts of Expanded Universe authors. For the same reason, the captain always seems to be on the bridge (one wonders what lieutenants are for), there is as often an executive officers as not, and officers routinely perform tasks for enlisted personnel. Indeed, rarely, if ever, are enlisted personnel mentioned at all.

Actually, there was conscript Pietrson, under Ensign Conclazure and eventuallly executed by Thrawn. Officers doing the task of enlisted might just be their style due to an overabundance of conscripts - an example would be the Soviets.

Yes, Cris Pieterson -- whose rate and rating have never been mentioned, but one might suppose to have been a space traffic controller or aviation boatswain's mate, perhaps third class -- is one of the rare occasions of an enlisted person appearing in the novels (although they regularly appear in the films -- and Decipher often identifies them as officers!).

Really, though, the Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet (Raboche-Krest'yanskaya Krasnayy Flot, abbr. RKKF) used officers to perform the more technically advanced tasks because the turnaround on the conscripts was too great to warrant training them to be, for example, operations specialists or enginemen or cryptologic technicians (the United States Navy requires a minimum enlistment of six years to qualify for training in the nuclear propulsion programme).

This is not the case in the Imperial Navy. The films regularly show operations specialists in the crew pits of Star Destroyers; an OS informs Captain Needa that Lord Vader demands an update (novels routinely have the communication officer -- a department head! -- performing this function). In Return of the Jedi, the novelisation identifies the black-uniformed fellow over whose shoulder Piett was looking as Controller Jhoff, almost certainly a space traffic controller (air traffic controller is a five-year enlistment in the United States Navy).

Odd as it may seem, the Imperial Navy also employs civilians aboard large ships like Imperial Star Destroyers. Maarek Stele worked for "Repairs" aboard the Vengeance as a civilian aviation machinist's mate or aviation structural mechanic before enlisting (and underwent basic training with Senior Master Sergeant Jonas T. Stark, a stormtrooper E-8 with an air force rank, as his Recruit Division Commander).

Between the Navy's willingness to hire civilians and the abundance of enlisted personnel in the films, it seems highly unlikely that the Imperial Navy -- at its prime, at least -- would share RKKF-style hesitance to train enlistees for more technical duties.

Kazuaki Shimasaki wrote:We all know the real reason is because the EU authors are stupid. Have any ideas for Suspension of Disbelief reasons?

As usual, there is an obsession with officers to the exclusion of enlisted personnel, who actually do most of the work (although Star Wars -- especially Aaron Allston -- occasionally acknowledges that they exist, unlike much of Star Trek from The Next Generation onward).

Although the greater hands-on role of officers in the post-Endor Imperial Navy makes sense -- the Navy might rapidly lose qualified enlisted personnel due to the breakup of Imperial hegemony -- it simply does not make any sense in the pre-Endor Navy. In the event that a pre-Endor story shows RKKF-style officers-only syndrome, the best explanation possible is that the CO is mistrustful of "mere" enlistees, and demands that officers personally handle important tasks (to the point that the communication officer becomes a glorified OS).

Publius

Or it could simply be that once the Admiral or commodore chooses a particular ship as the Flagship for his sector fleet or battlegroup, then the captain of that vessel becomes his XO, and the staff already in place would then serve as the admiral's staff.

It would make sense for an Admiral to not have a permanent staff, if he was continually shuffled about within the Imperial navy. He would have to continually be getting used to new commands, and adjusting to different crews. Having the Captain as a XO would be useful because theoretically the captain would be able to help the Admiral make better decisions regarding a crew that the admiral could possibly know nothing about.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Publius wrote:As bizarre as it sounds, Captain Piett was Admiral Ozzel's chief of staff, as well as the captain of the flagship. The Star Wars Encyclpedia says he "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet".

Oh, really. Poor Piett. As if 280,000+ people on a SSD (and that's with the wrong 8km length) ain't enough to handle.

The command master chief petty officer must be one of the most important positions aboard the ship, simply because of the enormity of the enlisted crew. On the other hand, the captain's yeoman and the personnel officer probably have high rates of burn-out and exhaustion because of the obscene amount of record-keeping necessary for a ship the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer or a Super Star Destroyer.

Publius

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:When the Imperial Japanese Navy was down to about 10 working vessels, the last fleet that sailed still had a fleet commander, a chief of staff, a commander for the destroyer squadron, no less than THREE subcommanders for the destroyer divisions and about 10 captains (one Rear Admiral for Yamato, one Captain for the Yahagi, and the rest are Commanders.) I'm pretty sure they had some other staff too.

The near destruction of the fleet is not a great excuse. Half the Imp Navy's vessels might be gone, but that just means 50% of the staffers (less than the number of ships, because staffers are often in land or base posts) are gone. And we are talking elite forces in all cases here. Out of all the Imperial Navy left, they can't spare ONE good set of staff?

Most of the higher Imperial commanders grabbed chunks of the fleet and attempted to make there own Empires. They then got wiped out along with much of the fleet during massive infighting which eventually left Isard in charge of the Empire.

Publius wrote:On the other hand, the captain's yeoman and the personnel officer probably have high rates of burn-out and exhaustion because of the obscene amount of record-keeping necessary for a ship the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer or a Super Star Destroyer.

Nahh, They probably have a lot of subordinates helping them with the bookwork, along with uber l33t computers

IIRC Zsinj (sp) was an Admiral who had General Melvar as a subordinate officer to help him run his fleet. In the same books Solo seems to use Wedge and Captain Orna(sp) as his subortinate. Numerous other times in EU we see several officers on a ship