NJO Question

[Trytostaydead]

In the New Jedi Order books do we ever hear from Thrawn's people and his household Phalanx? Sorry, I haven't had time to keep up my reading, but I'd really like to know if they come out of hiding and whoop some ass.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Tears of Palpatine's Essay on the Chiss

The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

I have got a problem

The Chiss are socially backwards, technologically retarded Communist racist xenophobes. Their fleets are pitiful and can't leave their territory. The blue Stalinists will stay in the uncivilized backwaters where they belong.

[Joe]

The hand of Thrawn sends a small force under Colonel Jagged Fel to help out. That's it, I think.

[Cal Wright]

They're not really part of the Chiss though. They're more outside the lines like Thrawn. In light of what we know about the Chiss, is it even possible they are the outsiders who took care of the Ssi Ruuk? Maybe the Hand of Thrawn saw the threat. Either way.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its doubtful the Hand of Thrawn took down the Ssi-ruuk.

The Hand of Thrawn didn't really come about until Thrawn returned to the galaxy proper. Its quite weak as it is though.

I think that Thrawn's "mapping" fleet in the Unknown Regions stamped out the Ssi-ruuk. He brought them back to the Empire at the end of the campiagn though.

[Cal Wright]

Now that would be interesting.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sounds like a good fanfic.

[Cal Wright]

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot. I'm on it Bravo Leader.

[Ender]

Its doubtful the Hand of Thrawn took down the Ssi-ruuk.

The Hand of Thrawn didn't really come about until Thrawn returned to the galaxy proper. Its quite weak as it is though.

You are confusing the Hand of Thrawn with his Splinter cell plan. Hand of thrawn is the fleet Palpatine kept slipping to him plus all the conquered territory and all those alliances.

I think that Thrawn's "mapping" fleet in the Unknown Regions stamped out the Ssi-ruuk.

His mapping fleet IS the Hand of thrawn. It's an assload of Imperial type ships out there, plus a huge network of alliances, remember? He was conquering in the Emperor's name.

He brought them back to the Empire at the end of the campiagn though.

No, he didn't. It was specifically said he left them behind under the command of Voss Parik and that is why he chose the Chimera instead of usign his regular ships.

The Chiss themselves are a null power, MAYBE on par with Hapes. THe Hand of Thrawn is another story.

[Ender]

In the New Jedi Order books do we ever hear from Thrawn's people and his household Phalanx? Sorry, I haven't had time to keep up my reading, but I'd really like to know if they come out of hiding and whoop some ass.

The Chiss themselves are extremely talented biologists who developed Alpha Red. The Hand of Thrawn, which most people confuse with the Chiss, looks to be brought into the fray soon.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Hand of Thrawn is immesnly powerful. The Chiss aren't.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its doubtful the Hand of Thrawn took down the Ssi-ruuk.

The Hand of Thrawn didn't really come about until Thrawn returned to the galaxy proper. Its quite weak as it is though.

You are confusing the Hand of Thrawn with his Splinter cell plan. Hand of thrawn is the fleet Palpatine kept slipping to him plus all the conquered territory and all those alliances.

Completely wrong.

Thrawn built a vast information complex--the "Hand of Thrawn"--and made it his unofficial base of operations.

Emphasis mine.

I'm tired of people who can't read and wank wank and wank some more to anything Zahn or Thrawn because they're kewl and mysterious.

The Hand of Thrawn is the actual fortress on Nirauan and nothing more.

NONE of this "great fleet" has EVER been observed. In fact, the Hand of Thrawn was hard-pressed to offer ANY aid beyond a handful of Clawcraft which had to be refitted with decent weapons systems and even a navicomputer. Even in stories about Thrawn in the Unknown Regions, we never see him with more than an ISD or two.

All that is seen in Vision of the Future is the map. Two-hundred and forty sectors are filled in. Thrawn mapped and explored 240 sectors. However, according to Behind the Magic CD-ROM, AOTC, and practical concerns from the speed and efficiency of hyperdrive, we know that the Unknown Regions is nothing more than the galactic halo of diffuse stellar matter in the void around the galaxy. ALL of the galactic disk and the nearby satellite galaxies has been explored according to AOTC.

Thus, Thrawn's oh-so-impressive mapping mission cataloged almost entirely empty space. Wow.

Furthermore, there has never ANYTHING seen from the Hand of Thrawn more impressive than a gunboat or two.

Mara's supposition that the mapped territory "might" (her own words) have its own complement of yards and ships any what not is unfounded--the mapped area contains very very few stars and even fewer minable or colonizable planets. General Fel's commentary by Dark Journey reveals the Hand of Thrawn does not possess the resources to even mount a half way decent expedition to investigate the Vong threat other than a squadron of coralskippers.

I think that Thrawn's "mapping" fleet in the Unknown Regions stamped out the Ssi-ruuk.

His mapping fleet IS the Hand of thrawn. It's an assload of Imperial type ships out there, plus a huge network of alliances, remember? He was conquering in the Emperor's name.

Firstly, I was saying that the Chiss Empire was not the entity that destroyed the Ssi-ruuk. We don't know who it was. I suspect it was Thrawn's mapping fleet, that likely went back with him to the Empire.

Secondly, what is this about "assload" of Imperial ships? Prove this or leave it.

There's not much in the Unknown Regions to conquer. So far we've seen a couple of technologically backward races with a couple worlds and some raiders and pirates. Thrawn's been observed with an ISD or two. Wow.

Furthermore, the mapping fleet disappeared by VoTF, as nothing was observed defending the HoT itself other than a couple gunships. And by Dark Journey they do not have anything to send beyond a squadron of upgraded and modified Clawcraft.

He brought them back to the Empire at the end of the campiagn though.

No, he didn't. It was specifically said he left them behind under the command of Voss Parik and that is why he chose the Chimera instead of usign his regular ships.

The Chiss themselves are a null power, MAYBE on par with Hapes. THe Hand of Thrawn is another story.

The Chiss are utterly pathetic. A backward Communist and bigotted state, they possess no navicomputers nor any vessels above 300 meters.

The Hand of Thrawn is also not a military power. Its an obsidian fortress containing Thrawn's most loyal fanatics and a vast cache of imformation as well as Thrawn's cloning cylinder.

Mitth'raw'norudo's Household Phalanx, the body that controls the HoT, is not a very strong military power. They had nothing to send to investigate the Chiss other than a squadron of Clawcraft. No observed significant military might has been shown. Diddly.

In the New Jedi Order books do we ever hear from Thrawn's people and his household Phalanx? Sorry, I haven't had time to keep up my reading, but I'd really like to know if they come out of hiding and whoop some ass.

The Chiss themselves are extremely talented biologists who developed Alpha Red. The Hand of Thrawn, which most people confuse with the Chiss, looks to be brought into the fray soon.

I love it when people skew things into their own little wanktrip and never actually seem to read the sources they cite.

On Alpha Red...

"Why Chiss?" Sien Sovv asked, bewildered.
"The Chiss come from a hidden, remote section of the galaxy far from the Yuuzhan Vong invasion routes," Scaur said. "It was highly unlikely that the enemy would have infiltrated them."

*snip*

"Our xenobiologists and geneticists have investigated Yuuzhan Vong genetics," Scaur continued

As you can see, this is no representative of Chiss biotech ability. They were recruited not for superior knowledge but for assurance none of them were Vong spies. As Scaur continues, it is clear this is a New Republic Intelligence operation. There are New Republic scientists perfectly capable of working on said project. It is not indicative of Chiss biotech prowess.

On the Hand of Thrawn...

"Two squadrons," the general repeated. "Twenty-four clawcraft and a beacon ship. How much difference could this force have made at Ord Mantell? Or Duro?

All the forces the Household Phalanx mustered up until this point.

"With respect, sir, I was commissioned in this household to serve and uphold the ideals of Grand Admiral Thrawn."

Grand Admiral Thrawn's treachery. He commissioned a personal force, loyal solely to him, and misappropriated Imperial resources into it and even actively encouraged Imperial servicepersons and officers to desert to join his illegal force and declare completely loyalty to him and his designs.

He is a traitor and Palpatine was right to have him killed.

The irony is Stravo's fanfic is GAT is coming down on Skywalker for doing what in continuity he did exactly.

"You were trained by Chiss tacticians," Baron Fel continued. "Tell me: do we have the ships, weaponry, personnel, or for that matter the knowledge needed to take on these invaders?"

"We do not," Jag admitted.

They do not have the resources to confront the Yuuzhan Vong save for a tiny expedition with a squadron or couple of clawcraft that had to be modified to have a navicomputer and decent weapons systems even.

[Crazedwraith]

quote="Dark Journey, page 53"]"Two squadrons," the general repeated. "Twenty-four clawcraft and a beacon ship. How much difference could this force have made at Ord Mantell? Or Duro?

All the forces the Household Phalanx mustered up until this point.

Wha????????? thats all the forces Jag had while helping NR after "ruin" he bought 3 squads of Clawcraft but one when back home to report.

And for the record the scounting mission is TWO clawcraft, the vanguard sqaud was two clawcraft and ten hapan fighter.
AND WHY CANT I DO THAT BLUE BOX THIN AROUND MY QOUTES??????????????????

[Illuminatus Primus]

Post quotes to prove your point.

The point stands: the MHP (Mitth'raw'noruodo's Household Phalanx) mustered 24 navicomputer-refitted squadrons of clawcraft and 1 beacon ship (perhaps some of them didn't even have navicomputers?) for their mission. They could dedicate no other vessels.

[hvb]

AND WHY CANT I DO THAT BLUE BOX THIN AROUND MY QOUTES??????????????????

"[/quote]" at the end not "[qoute]"

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If the Hand of Thrawn is oh so weak, why were Luke and Mara panicking to make sure they couldn't contact Bastion?

[Illuminatus Primus]

What the main characters panic about does not define what is. Mara suspected they might have fleet resources in the explored territory. This assumption is never validated, and with General and Colonel Fel's admission of the rather low state of MHP resources, it is disproved.

Besides, the real danger was the information. The Hand of Thrawn IS an information base. As it is, with or without troops, the HoT is dangerous. It contains information about all sorts of probable resources and alliances with possibly powerful faction in the Unknown Regions. It has information about atrocities that could spark civil wars, and likely information about technologies and designs Thrawn discovered or pioneered during his career. If the Imperial Remnant had gotten a hold of it, and thus Thrawn, they felt he could destabilize the New Republic and cause it to break up, as well as giving the Empire a new field of possible alliances and the locales of new resources to use.

Since they believed Thrawn had returned, as they saw it, turning over of the HoT to Bastion would result in a collapse of the New Republic as a coherent entity, the expansion and reestablishment of the Empire as a regional powerhouse, and alliances with races in the UR of unknown and possibly dangerous power. The result could've been a massive destabilization of the galactic power structure, and inevitably war.

While their fears of bases and fleets and such were exaggerated, the choatic possibilities of more death and more destruction were certainly something Mara and Luke dreaded. They had been fighting this war for twenty-five years...and for it heat up and possibly tear the NR was something they wouldn't want to face.

By the time of the NJO, the weakness of the Chiss and MHP is revealed, and the ethnic and historical tensions between the NR members have cooled down. Imperial tensions with the NR have gave way to peace, and the aggitators and the fear Thrawn had returned have been disspelled.

The HoT was the powder keg that could have lit the whole volatile situation at the time of Vision of the Future ablaze. With the volatility having slackened off and calmness set in, the HoT could not lead to the same crisis. Furthermore, with proof that Thrawn's return was a hoax, the HoT's garrison no longer wished to provide Bastion with the HoT's secrets.

[Crazedwraith]

Okay on page 284 of Dark tide II: Ruin
[quote] skips crumbled as the thirthy-six clawcraft that just had appeared in system raked their way through the dogfight [/qoute]

There thirty-six fighters.= 3 squads
you're out by at least 12 fighters.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That extra squadron of fighters (and Fel was refering to the force that fought elsewhere to) means the MHP provided one extra squad just for the Battle of Ithor. Still doesn't show that the MHP is not negligible in terms of military power.

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

In relation to the newest NJO book (Force Heretic 1: Remnant), the Chiss may know where Zonama Sekot is, which for all Luke's ranting about it may be the key to winning the war. This doesn't change the fact that they are pretty much a non-existant military force (which will probably be growing fast, i mean, if the YV were conquering a galaxy I was in, id be building ships,fighters,defense platforms, etc. like crazy), but it means they may matter in the big scheme of things, if just a little bit (more than the current Imperial Remnant does anyway)


BTW, without spoiling too much for people who havent read it, does anyone here think the Galactic Alliance will pull it off, a true galactic alliance? Certain groups *COUGH*Spoiler->Imperial Remnant*COUGH* have already agreed to forget old differences, but I think people will always disagree. Erm, maybe I should take this into another thread....

[Illuminatus Primus]

Since the Chiss can't leave their territory I doubt they'll be contributing.

Yes, and I do think the galaxy can be under one power again. My Galactic Union idea was ideal, methinks.

Ideas for post-Invasion Galactic Government

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

I am not sure if the galaxy was truly "under one power". What about the Hapes Cluster? Or the Corporate Sector? What the Galactic Alliance is trying to be, just by definition, a complete galactic government, with all areas united (or destroyed ) I mean, the Empire did a lot (ok, they just built on what the Old Republic had), but i don't think they unified the whole galaxy. (Hell, if anything, they TERRORIZED the whole galaxy)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hapes and the Corporate Sector with both Imperial protectorates.

[Ender]

Completely wrong.

How Darkstarian. No, I am correct. The Hand of Thrawn was fully built and estabilshed long before he returned .

I'm tired of people who can't read and wank wank and wank some more to anything Zahn or Thrawn because they're kewl and mysterious.

The Hand of Thrawn is the actual fortress on Nirauan and nothing more.

I'm tired of people who let their blind hatred for something cloud the facts: Hand of Thrawn was a control base for the entire operation. Smaller bases and fleets were spread throughout the territory, speculated by Mara and confirmed in the short story Blue Sky Red flame

NONE of this "great fleet" has EVER been observed.

No, it was simply stated to exist

In fact, the Hand of Thrawn was hard-pressed to offer ANY aid beyond a handful of Clawcraft which had to be refitted with decent weapons systems and even a navicomputer.

Prove they were hard pressed. Especially since it was said the reason that they only sent that was because they didn't want to get involved, not because they didn't have any.

Even in stories about Thrawn in the Unknown Regions, we never see him with more than an ISD or two.

I'd love to know how you conquer 240 sectors with only 2 ISDs, especially since you claim Thrawn was a poor commander.

All that is seen in Vision of the Future is the map. Two-hundred and forty sectors are filled in. Thrawn mapped and explored 240 sectors. However, according to Behind the Magic CD-ROM, AOTC, and practical concerns from the speed and efficiency of hyperdrive, we know that the Unknown Regions is nothing more than the galactic halo of diffuse stellar matter in the void around the galaxy. ALL of the galactic disk and the nearby satellite galaxies has been explored according to AOTC.

No. That is Saxton's speculation. The maps clearly show that the Unknown regions are about a 3rd of the galaxy. They remap it because according to AOTC ICS maps have fallen hideously out of date.

Furthermore, there has never ANYTHING seen from the Hand of Thrawn more impressive than a gunboat or two.

So with 2 ISDs and a few gunboats, they managed to defeat several powers that were as strong as the Yevetha, who required a whole NR fleet and parts of two others, plus internal revolution to defeat?

Mara's supposition that the mapped territory "might" (her own words) have its own complement of yards and ships any what not is unfounded--the mapped area contains very very few stars and even fewer minable or colonizable planets.

I'd like a quote on that.

General Fel's commentary by Dark Journey reveals the Hand of Thrawn does not possess the resources to even mount a half way decent expedition to investigate the Vong threat other than a squadron of coralskippers.

No, it says that they refuse to commit, hence their only sending out a small expendable group until they cna convince the others.

Firstly, I was saying that the Chiss Empire was not the entity that destroyed the Ssi-ruuk. We don't know who it was. I suspect it was Thrawn's mapping fleet, that likely went back with him to the Empire.

No, it didn't. He returned alone.

Secondly, what is this about "assload" of Imperial ships? Prove this or leave it.

How else did he stop groups said to be as powerful as the Yevetha?

There's not much in the Unknown Regions to conquer.

You keep claiming this even though the official maps clearly prove you wrong

So far we've seen a couple of technologically backward races with a couple worlds and some raiders and pirates. Thrawn's been observed with an ISD or two. Wow.

Races that would require whole fleets to deal with were halted, and you claim it was by a few gunboats and 2 ISDs. What is wrong with this picture.

Furthermore, the mapping fleet disappeared by VoTF, as nothing was observed defending the HoT itself other than a couple gunships.

They were trying to lure Mara there. Having ISDs parked in orbit is going to make here turn and run, not come on down.

And by Dark Journey they do not have anything to send beyond a squadron of upgraded and modified Clawcraft.

They refused to commit nothing more. That does not mean they have nothing more, no matter how many times you tell yourself that.

The Hand of Thrawn is also not a military power. Its an obsidian fortress containing Thrawn's most loyal fanatics and a vast cache of imformation as well as Thrawn's cloning cylinder.

It's also the main base for that fleet that is termed the Hand of thrawn since no one knows it's real name. What you are doing is arguing that since the Pentagon is stuck in Washington, America has no armed forces.

Mitth'raw'norudo's Household Phalanx, the body that controls the HoT, is not a very strong military power. They had nothing to send to investigate the Chiss other than a squadron of Clawcraft. No observed significant military might has been shown. Diddly.

In the New Jedi Order books do we ever hear from Thrawn's people and his household Phalanx? Sorry, I haven't had time to keep up my reading, but I'd really like to know if they come out of hiding and whoop some ass.

The Chiss themselves are extremely talented biologists who developed Alpha Red. The Hand of Thrawn, which most people confuse with the Chiss, looks to be brought into the fray soon.

I love it when people skew things into their own little wanktrip and never actually seem to read the sources they cite.

On Alpha Red...

"Why Chiss?" Sien Sovv asked, bewildered.
"The Chiss come from a hidden, remote section of the galaxy far from the Yuuzhan Vong invasion routes," Scaur said. "It was highly unlikely that the enemy would have infiltrated them."

*snip*

"Our xenobiologists and geneticists have investigated Yuuzhan Vong genetics," Scaur continued

As you can see, this is no representative of Chiss biotech ability. They were recruited not for superior knowledge but for assurance none of them were Vong spies. As Scaur continues, it is clear this is a New Republic Intelligence operation. There are New Republic scientists perfectly capable of working on said project. It is not indicative of Chiss biotech prowess.

On the Hand of Thrawn...

All the forces the Household Phalanx mustered up until this point.

No, that was the entirety of the forces they lent to the Empire on Fel's own initiative. That is not their entire military.

Grand Admiral Thrawn's treachery. He commissioned a personal force, loyal solely to him, and misappropriated Imperial resources into it

He was given those by Palpatine, he didn't misappropriate them.

and even actively encouraged Imperial servicepersons and officers to desert to join his illegal force and declare completely loyalty to him and his designs.

He was following Palpatines orders of taking the UR. I fail to see how these would be his designs.

He is a traitor and Palpatine was right to have him killed.

Reread the sourcebook. Palpatine was going to have him killed, but it happened before he got involved in it.

"You were trained by Chiss tacticians," Baron Fel continued. "Tell me: do we have the ships, weaponry, personnel, or for that matter the knowledge needed to take on these invaders?"

"We do not," Jag admitted.

They do not have the resources to confront the Yuuzhan Vong save for a tiny expedition with a squadron or couple of clawcraft that had to be modified to have a navicomputer and decent weapons systems even.

Way to twist the quote. They do not have sufficient men and material to take on the invaders. Neither does the NR, it its debatable that the Empire did. You also dropped the part that follows where General Fel specifically tells him to go on a fact finding mission. That they sent a small group on a small mission does not mean they lack anything greater.

Your numerous twistings of fact, contradicted claims, and gaping errors make me wonder if you have actually read and analyzed any of the material involved with the Hand of Thrawn, or if your blind hatred for Zahn just makes you breeze through it to sputter here.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Even in stories about Thrawn in the Unknown Regions, we never see him with more than an ISD or two.

I do believe Mara specifically says "Thrawn couldn't have opened this all up with 1 Star Destroyer."