Chiss

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

Ok, I know this has been discussed before, and many of you may disagree with what starwars.com says, but here:

From Thrawn's databank entry:
Thrawn's greatest weapon was his mind. This was long ago recognized by his people, the Chiss, who banished Mitth'raw'nuruodo for his dangerous ideas. The Chiss of Csilla are a disciplined species, advanced enough to build a sizable fleet and an empire over two dozen worlds. Thrawn's tactics were controversial in their boldness, and his activities within the Chiss Expansionary Defense Fleet drew many a concerned, glowing red eye.
(emphasis mine)

I dunno what a "sizable fleet" is, but it must be something fair. How else would the Chiss defend against the dangers Fel mentioned in Visions of the Future?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Chiss independently developed star-travel, perhaps by tapping ancient memories of the original colonization effort that brought them to Csilla. They now rule a sizable sector of the Unknown Regions.

Somewhat unrelated, but interesting: the Chiss did not evolve on Csilla. This supports the idea they could very well be descendants of ancient human pre-FTL travel colonization attempts that got lost beyond the galactic disk.

They control a single sector beyond the galactic disk. A casual glance of any picture of spiral galaxy will tell you a section of space outside the disk contains almost nothing.

The Chiss maintain impressive fleets dedicated to protecting Csilla and her territories. They have colonized over two dozen worlds. Chiss colonies are sparsely-populated production centers for resources that are then transported back to Csilla.

The "lightly populated" Chommell Sector comprised 36 full-member worlds and 40,000 settled dependencies, according to the AOTC ICS.

The basic need to manage Csilla’s population as well as gathering resources without upsetting their homeworld’s ecosystem governs much of their space programs. Since the worlds in their territory more than suffice for the total Chiss population needs (estimated at just shy of five trillion), the question remains as to just what the Chiss are looking for.

The secret retreat world of Emperor Palpatine, Byss, had a population of 19.7 billion alone.

The entire Chiss civilization is only two-and-a-half hundred times larger than the population of the Emperor’s private retreat world.

The heart of Chiss politics lies on Csilla, and in the four ruling families. At the House Palace in Csilla’s capital city of Csaplar can be found the Cabinet and Parliament. The 28 outlying Chiss colonies are represented in the Parliament by apointed governors, or House leaders.

There are only 29 proper Chiss worlds. Twenty-nine.

The Chiss military is a sizable force. The Nuruodo family is ultimately in charge of the fleet and army. The military has never been required to act as a single unit, so it is partitioned into 28 colonial units called Phalanxes.

Each of the Phalanxes often refered to is only the local military stationed at an individual planet.

The Imperial Remnant had over a thousand major systems.

So much for those ideas that only if the Chiss helped in the NJO, everything would be fine!

The Chiss have about 2.9% of the significant territory of the Imperial Remnant.

The Chiss have independently developed analogs for galactic standard technologies. The Chiss hyperdrive, while not as efficient as the latest model from Corellian Engineering Corporation, is nonetheless competent and capable for traversing the distances of their territory.

Wow. The Chiss hyperdrive is competent at traversing the distances of their own territory.

The fact they've had to develop their own immitations and analogs for galactic standard technology reveals why it is inferior.

Modern Chiss spacecraft use this anchor-point network for hyperspace travel within Chiss space. Chiss vessels thus lack navicomputers and are unable to safely travel beyond the Chiss borders.

Some military juggernaught. Can't leave their own territory.

It is believed that the Chiss do not have a starship larger than an escort frigate (about 300 meters in length).

The Chiss can't field any starship (no reference to warships, only a starships here) even three-hundred meters in length. The United Federation of Planets fields a more lengthy vessel in the Soveriegn-class battlecruiser Enterprise-E by over a factor of two.

Three-hundred meter-long battleships at best with inferior analog weapon systems that cannot navigate independently or even leave their territory? How threatening.

A significant portion of the CEDF, Syndic Mitth’raw’nuruodo’s Household Phalanx, has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats. While some would call this action secession and treason, the ruling families have taken care not to stir the populace with such inflammatory talk. Thrawn’s Phalanx has teamed with a cell of Imperials to guard the Chiss territory in a much more proactive manner than the Chiss would ordinarily be comfortable with.While the ruling families pretend to be oblivious to such actions, the average Chiss does indeed know.

As Thrawn's "household phalanx" and as such is only one planet's worth of Chiss military might.

I'd like to remind those who wank to the idea of Thrawn's holdouts out in the galactic backwaters that the only demonstrated substance that amounted to a single reinforced stone fortress, a handful of gunships cobbled with TIE parts, and a handful of extremely upgraded Clawcraft for intragalactic work far beyond Chiss territory. That is it.

They have developed technology comparable to the rest of the galaxy, and see no need for trade. Their culturally-encoded contempt for “lesser” aliens also prohibits them from friendly relations with neighboring species.

Wow. A bunch of backward isolationist racists with poor production capabilities and only comparable, not equal technology with galactic norm. I see more in common with holdouts in the wilderness of the American Deep South than I do with some secret cadre of übermensch with hidden shadow fleets.

Since they won't trade or even have friendly relations with Imperials, I don't see much technological transfer going to be happening other than whatever Thrawn might have left in their territory for them to try and copy. Likely not much cooperation from engineers in Pelleaon's dominion though.

A hybrid of Imperial and Chiss technologies, the clawcraft resembles a TIE-ball cockpit with an extended twin ion bank.

Thus, the Clawcraft's performance is likely due to the Imperial part of that hybrid, and Chiss attempts to copy it. Not reflective of Chiss technology.

Chiss clawcraft are Imperial-Chiss hybrids. And since the Chiss government is uninterested in trade or relations with “inferiors,” that excludes the Imperials. So, no, it is doubtful the Chiss government does have clawcraft.

The clawcraft is likely an attempt by Thrawn's household phalanx to bolster their own numbers by canabalizing whatever Imperial technology was left behind during Thrawn's campiagns. Seeing as he had to worry about Spaarti cylinders and ancient fleets of slave-rigged frigates in the Katana fleet, I don't imagine him leaving Sector groups worth of fleets that some seem to delude exist out in the Unknown Regions with little evidence.

Given that the clawcraft is STILL described as lacking a navicomputer or even warhead launchers in the New Jedi Order Sourcebook, IIRC, Jag Fel's squad must be a rare group of clawcraft specially customized and modified and bolstered with Imperial technology that the Chiss couldn't duplicate STILL to produce a mere navicomputer.

EDIT: here was the last big Chiss debate thread.

From the debate on the Chiss homeworlds' strength here: The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

Debate over the strength of Syndic Mitth'raw'noruodo's Household Phalanx:

NJO Question

[Illuminatus Primus]

I dunno what a "sizable fleet" is, but it must be something fair. How else would the Chiss defend against the dangers Fel mentioned in Visions of the Future?

Whatever it is, it has the economical backing of a paltry 29 colonized worlds and never exceeds 300 meters and cannot leave their territory.

The Chiss homeworlds are incapable of encountering threats. The only way they could is if Thrawn's rogue household phalanx is provoking the enemy.

Unwarrented aggression from a body of traitors, criminals, and fanatics swearing their lives to an incorrigible racist who was expelled from his own people for unwarrented aggression? Perish the thought.

The ONLY known case of rebuking any threats is the CEDF repulsion of the Ssi-ruuk. The Ssi-ruuk were fought to a standstill by a dozen Nebulon-B escort frigates support vessels. They, like the Chiss, are a power not worth considering from the perspective of the galaxy proper.

[Joe]

I dunno what a "sizable fleet" is, but it must be something fair. How else would the Chiss defend against the dangers Fel mentioned in Visions of the Future?

Fel is either lying or exaggerating.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Precisely.

Stent actually clarifies that Mara and Luke live in "bubble" surrounded by a "ring of warships." In other words, the types Fel and co. have been fighting would be no danger at all to the galactic mainstream.

That's assuming they're telling the truth and the more likely possibility--they're a reserve cell for one of Thrawn's contingency plans for galactic conquest--is incorrect.

[2000AD]

I dunno what a "sizable fleet" is, but it must be something fair. How else would the Chiss defend against the dangers Fel mentioned in Visions of the Future?

Is Thrawn typical of Chiss strategic prowess? If so then that could be how they defeated the dangers Fel mentioned, as Thrawn managed to kick top of the line Imperial ass with just a few picket ships or something like that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

He managed to defeat a force of mercs led by a political aide.

I'm so impressed.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

There's no proof Thrawn is a typical example of the Chiss.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If indeed the Chiss can only field 300 meter ships, that means the Empire, on its death bed, had 200 ships four times bigger than the Chiss's largest vessesl, thousands of assorted smaller ships, and at least one ship 58 times bigger!


And they have no nav computers, meaning their power projection capability is non-existant.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Wow, sounds like the EU really likes to exagerate the Chiss to alarming levels...

Although to be fair to them, the EU has always thought small. That is, the Galaxy Proper (as far as many EU writers are concerned) isn't nearly as large as it actually is potrayed in canon sources (AOTC...) thereby their version of the Chiss holdings would be a significantly larger ratio next to the GP. Which isn't to say we should do any rationilizing to make the Chiss territory larger, just pointing out that EU writers are stupid, I guess.

Of course, Chiss tech will always be inferior.

But Thrawn rules!!! Victory to the Empire!!!

What?

[Joe]

If I'm not mistaken, they've got some ex-military guys writing some of the upcoming Clone Wars novels, so we may actually have *gasp* a writer who understands SW fleet-building.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Although to be fair to them, the EU has always thought small. That is, the Galaxy Proper (as far as many EU writers are concerned) isn't nearly as large as it actually is potrayed in canon sources (AOTC...) thereby their version of the Chiss holdings would be a significantly larger ratio next to the GP. Which isn't to say we should do any rationilizing to make the Chiss territory larger, just pointing out that EU writers are stupid, I guess.

Actually, check out the DESB, and ISB from WEG. Impressive figures. Gamer 5 was actually somewhat of a retcon on the original Zahn wanking. So it isn't EU minimalism here.

[Kuja]

What if the Hand of Thrawn exiles were indicative of mainstream Chiss ideals and tech level? How dangerous would the Chiss be then?

[Joe]

What if the Hand of Thrawn exiles were indicative of mainstream Chiss ideals and tech level? How dangerous would the Chiss be then?

Not really. The numerical disadvantage that would still hinder the Chiss would be staggering.

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

I think the Hand of Thrawn exile group were just crazy fanatics, with help from Thrawn (they had ylsamari, a cloning cylinder, and probably some other non-Chiss stuff).

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

What if the Hand of Thrawn exiles were indicative of mainstream Chiss ideals and tech level? How dangerous would the Chiss be then?

Not really. The numerical disadvantage that would still hinder the Chiss would be staggering.

If it was Rest of galaxy vs. Chiss, yes. YV vs Chiss, definately yes.

BTW, what about the group of ships that pop into space instead of go through hyperspace? They might have been useful against the Yuuzhan Vong....

[Darth Yoshi]

You're referring to the Aiing-Ti monks (probably misplaced an "i"), who are reclusive by nature, and generally won't leave their space.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What if the Hand of Thrawn exiles were indicative of mainstream Chiss ideals and tech level? How dangerous would the Chiss be then?

The original HoT exiles had inferior to mainstream galactic weaponry, and a few gunboats. We didn't see any masterful Thrawn-esque tacticians, and simply observed some fanatical ideals.

They'd be a terrorist group to the galactic mainstream.

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

You're referring to the Aiing-Ti monks (probably misplaced an "i"), who are reclusive by nature, and generally won't leave their space.

Ya, that's them. You would think that a galaxy-wide event like the Yuuzhan Vong takeover would make even the most reclusive species to come out of their hidey-holes and help, but then again, maybe keeping quiet is just what will save them.

[Darth Yoshi]

Yeah, but as long as the Vong don't try to invade Aing-tii space, they might just think of it as someone else's problem.

[Kerneth]

Ignoring a problem in the hopes it will go away on its own is human nature, no reason it can't be the same for some aliens.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your philosophy doesn't change a common philosophy in the GFFA. Particularly among a group of isolationist recluses like the Aing-Tii.