Imp victory at Yavin

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2002-09-03 09:46pm

I don't know if someone has already done this, but if someone has please kill this thread.

Now suppose instead of the alliance trying to do a last stand all out defense at Yavin, they pulled a hoth and Evacuated almost all of their personel and equipment, while the star fighters tried to kill the death star. Anyway luke fires but his torps detonate halfway down the shaft causing very little damage, while he, the falcon, and all personel escape, the empire just sent the Rebels away with a major defeat, and a operating Death Star. What would this spell for the future of the galaxy?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-03 09:52pm

*doh while they fix the error

Allanice

Doh we are @%@%@

Run for it!

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-09-03 09:53pm

First of all, the Yavin Base would be difficult to evacuate; it appears to be more permanent, as opposed to the Hoth Base which appeared to be more makeshift.

My guess is, this wouldn't be the end for the Rebellion, but it would weaken them quite a bit and set them back several years. The Empire, realizing how close the Rebellion came to destroying the Death Star, would make sure to never allow the Rebels such an opportunity again. And surely, the Death Star would be deployed throughout the galaxy, incinerating any planets possibly guilty of colluding with the Rebels. The Rebel Alliance would be weakened, but like Leia said, the Empire would continue to lose systems due to its brutality.

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2002-09-03 09:56pm

they probably would of had a second death star by ROTJ

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-03 10:39pm

The alliance gets its fecal matter conglomerated and stops doing something stupid like building bases on planets.

Space is vast, planets are not. Its much easier to hide the whole fleet in the dead of space (say outside the galatic plane) than in some remote planet. There are "only" a few million/billion planets to search, there are trillions as many times as much open space to hide in.

ISD's can BDZ planets. Imperial craft can blockade them.

In space the Imps will take forever to find you and when Vader comes knocking on your door ... all your stuff is already packed.

Unless there is some mysterious reason I'm not aware of there is no strategic benifit to living on planet, besides less wear and tear on the ships (but hey I'll take that instead of having them vaped).

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-09-04 04:02am

tharkûn wrote:The alliance gets its fecal matter conglomerated and stops doing something stupid like building bases on planets.

Space is vast, planets are not. Its much easier to hide the whole fleet in the dead of space (say outside the galatic plane) than in some remote planet. There are "only" a few million/billion planets to search, there are trillions as many times as much open space to hide in.

ISD's can BDZ planets. Imperial craft can blockade them.

In space the Imps will take forever to find you and when Vader comes knocking on your door ... all your stuff is already packed.

Unless there is some mysterious reason I'm not aware of there is no strategic benifit to living on planet, besides less wear and tear on the ships (but hey I'll take that instead of having them vaped).

As a guess I'd say that the Rebel fleet was actually easier to detect than the base, and had to keep moving to avoid being attacked. The reason for this could be the logistics tail needed to keep the fleet operational, as well as the raw energy output. Imagine this;

A stealthy probe droid drops into the edge of the Hoth system, where the Rebel fleet are currently hiding. It immediatly detects the presence of scores of heavy warships and hundreds of smaller craft, and informs Ozzels battlegroup. The evidence of a large fleet of warships is undeniable, and Ozzel immediatly orders the Fleet to prepare to move. Mere hours later the Imperials attack the Rebel fleet.

Compared to what actually happened; Probe droid lands on Hoth near a small unidentified base, it scouts around until it find the source of the radiation and informs Ozzels command. The evidence is not conclusive, and if it wasn't for Vader, it is unlikly that a full scale attack would've occured at all.

Large expensive fleets are much more difficult for the Empire to find than a small well hidden base, and it has the advantage that it can stay in one place for months, or even years, without being detected, if appropriate security measures are taken. The Rebel fleet has to keep moving, and it would make a very bad main base for that reason alone. Imagine the rebel leaders trying to maintain contact with rest of the rebel communications network, when they arn't even sure where the main base is half the time, or where it's going to be next week. They'd have to constantly keep the rest of the important rebel cells updated on the current location of the fleet, which is a large security risk right there.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-04 07:51am

Also keep in that according to EU and WEG(They agree here oddly enough)
At Yavin they had *barley any ships
In WEG it goes on to say they had roughly six transports and two Corvets plus the Neubilon that gets converted into a Medical Frigit

Two ISDs one Interductor could have taken thier whole fleet easy

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-04 08:25am

I'd love to have seen the publics reaction the first time it was shown onscreen and whoops, Han slips on the controlls, Vader blows up Luke, Vader's wingmen blow up Han and the Empire blows up Yavin IV and... The End...

Now that noone would have expected.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-04 10:41am

As a guess I'd say that the Rebel fleet was actually easier to detect than the base, and had to keep moving to avoid being attacked.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but don't you need the same amount of logistics if you are stationed on a barren ball of ice? You have to move the same amount of resources into say Hoth that you would have to in deep space, barring whatever resources needed to keep the ships livable. Further you would not have the energy requirements inherent to breaking out of a gravity well every time you leave.

Imagine this;

A stealthy probe droid drops into the edge of the Hoth system, where the Rebel fleet are currently hiding.
The point is the rebels should be avoiding solar systems like the plague. This is a common problem in Sci-Fi in general ... people have no grasp of the concept that space is *vast*, that solar systems are tiny bubbles in an oceon of space. Let's say a probe droid can scan 1/2 Lightyear in all directions, given earth's closest neighbor is 4 lightyears away we find that there is massively more places to hide away from the system. Heck with the speed of hyperdrive you can easily operate outside the galactic plane (assuming a roughly flat galaxy). For every possible place to hide in system there are *millions* out.

Having established bases just gives the empire targets to attack. You can't stand toe to toe so everything should be as mobile as possible and as well hidden as possible.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-04 10:55am

The point is the rebels should be avoiding solar systems like the plague. This is a common problem in Sci-Fi in general ... people have no grasp of the concept that space is *vast*, that solar systems are tiny bubbles in an oceon of space. Let's say a probe droid can scan 1/2 Lightyear in all directions, given earth's closest neighbor is 4 lightyears away we find that there is massively more places to hide away from the system. Heck with the speed of hyperdrive you can easily operate outside the galactic plane (assuming a roughly flat galaxy). For every possible place to hide in system there are *millions* out.

Having established bases just gives the empire targets to attack. You can't stand toe to toe so everything should be as mobile as possible and as well hidden as possible.

As I made the point above they Don't HAVE ships before ANH, The best the have is five losy transports, They did not get Mon-Cal support untill just before ROTJ.

Also you forgeting the Obvious that Ships have a TON less room that planets do, are much harder to defend and can not stay in the vastness of space for very long

Sure you might stay hidden but you can't stay out there for long...

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-09-04 03:17pm

tharkûn wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but don't you need the same amount of logistics if you are stationed on a barren ball of ice? You have to move the same amount of resources into say Hoth that you would have to in deep space, barring whatever resources needed to keep the ships livable. Further you would not have the energy requirements inherent to breaking out of a gravity well every time you leave.

To crew just twenty MC80 Star Cruisers requires over 100,000 men, the entire Rebel Fleet is likly to require several times that. This is far more than the main rebel base on Hoth, which may have had less than 1000 personel (or a few thousand at most), judging by the number and size of the transports required for the evacuation. The fleet also requires fuel for the power plant and life support as well as a continuous supply of spare parts. The logistics trail is going to be far easier for the Empire to follow than for a ground base.

tharkûn wrote: The point is the rebels should be avoiding solar systems like the plague. ...<snip>... For every possible place to hide in system there are *millions* out.

But where ever they are, they must remain in contact with their intelligence and supply networks, both of which can be used by the Empire to them down. Far more traffic is necessary to support the fleet than the main base.
The more traffic, the greater the opportunities for the Empire to track down the rebels.
Freeing the main fleet from the requirement to stay in contact with the intelligence network makes both the main base and the rebel fleet safer and more effective.

tharkûn wrote: Having established bases just gives the empire targets to attack. You can't stand toe to toe so everything should be as mobile as possible and as well hidden as possible.

The rebel main base was mobile enough to evacuate in hours, and was easier to keep hidden in the first place.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-04 07:19pm

Then break the fleet up. You still have the same net influx of supplies and outflux of cash. Why can the empire track shipments dropped in the dead of space (i.e. hype to a drop point, pitch the cargo out the airlock, hype out), than on a planet.

The fleet also requires fuel for the power plant and life support as well as a continuous supply of spare parts.
On planets like Hoth you still need life support (heating the place). As for spare parts, um the fleet is still in action, the RoTJ fleet is significanly larger than the one fleeing Hoth.

But where ever they are, they must remain in contact with their intelligence and supply networks, both of which can be used by the Empire to them down.
So break the fleet up and have a several couriers who hype to pre-arranged points in the dead of space, pass info and move on. The fleet need not stay in the same location.

The more traffic, the greater the opportunities for the Empire to track down the rebels.
Freeing the main fleet from the requirement to stay in contact with the intelligence network makes both the main base and the rebel fleet safer and more effective.

Why not just detach a few ships from the fleet to keep in touch with the spy network and use couriers, drop locations, etc. to relay needed information?

The rebel main base was mobile enough to evacuate in hours, and was easier to keep hidden in the first place.
At a significant loss of equipment and with loss of life.

Look you need to have somebody contact the intelligence ... detach them from the fleet and let them work alone. You need someone route supplies in? Use drop locations and shuck the the supplies into space. I still don't see any reason to build a base. You can run intelligence networks from ships (the CIA has done that), you can resupply in space. All told I just don't see the advantage of having a terrestrial base.

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2002-09-04 07:30pm

how would the rebel fleet repair major battle damage in deep space without the aid of shipyards? I assume the fleet wouldn't just be sitting around, but some parts of it would conduct operations, like inserting agents in enemy territory and raiding imperial convoys and stuff like that. Would they be able to build a mobile shipyard or outfit some ships to work as repair vessels?

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-04 07:40pm

Durran Korr wrote:First of all, the Yavin Base would be difficult to evacuate; it appears to be more permanent, as opposed to the Hoth Base which appeared to be more makeshift.

My guess is, this wouldn't be the end for the Rebellion, but it would weaken them quite a bit and set them back several years. The Empire, realizing how close the Rebellion came to destroying the Death Star, would make sure to never allow the Rebels such an opportunity again. And surely, the Death Star would be deployed throughout the galaxy, incinerating any planets possibly guilty of colluding with the Rebels. The Rebel Alliance would be weakened, but like Leia said, the Empire would continue to lose systems due to its brutality.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-04 07:42pm

sorry I was scruing around didnt mean to hit submit

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2002-09-04 07:49pm

Drason! Put some caps and punctuation in that sig, soldier!

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-04 08:04pm

Falkenhorst wrote:Drason! Put some caps and punctuation in that sig, soldier!

Thanks, this any better?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2002-09-04 09:14pm

Admiral Drason wrote:
Falkenhorst wrote:Drason! Put some caps and punctuation in that sig, soldier!
Thanks, this any better?

Isn't it Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, Shame on me. Not trick me etc.

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2002-09-04 09:33pm

trick, fool, not much difference. I first heard it as 'fool' but I don't think it's that important. Yer sig gets my seal of approval, Drason.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-04 10:16pm

Well, Yavin base is probably more permanent, and lots of personnel probably wouldn't have made it. After destroying Yavin, the DS could use surface TL turrets to pick of transports, and then go to destroy other Rebel planets.

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2002-09-05 12:29am

thing is, the DS could just blast the base from orbit with it's conventional weapons, no need to even use the superlaser. But then again, if you've got it, use it! They'd be stupid not to.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-05 09:34pm

As I made the point above they Don't HAVE ships before ANH, The best the have is five losy transports, They did not get Mon-Cal support untill just before ROTJ.
Then why are people talking about the logistics of supporting Mon Cals?

Also you forgeting the Obvious that Ships have a TON less room that planets do, are much harder to defend and can not stay in the vastness of space for very long
Depends on the ships. Grab a few old trade-fed ships, or whatever, gut the thing and you have lots of space.

Besides which what do you want room for? You are fighting guerilla warfare, anything you can carry when you have to run is expendable ... sell it and buy ships, missiles, or whatever.

how would the rebel fleet repair major battle damage in deep space without the aid of shipyards? I assume the fleet wouldn't just be sitting around, but some parts of it would conduct operations, like inserting agents in enemy territory and raiding imperial convoys and stuff like that. Would they be able to build a mobile shipyard or outfit some ships to work as repair vessels?

The same way they would do it on a planet without shipyards. This is space, ships just sit there if you do nothing. I'm not even all that sure what you'd need a shipyard to fix.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-05 10:14pm

Falkenhorst wrote:trick, fool, not much difference. I first heard it as 'fool' but I don't think it's that important. Yer sig gets my seal of approval, Drason.

Thanks

I cant remember where I heard it I just thought it was real cool.

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2002-09-06 12:31am

The same way they would do it on a planet without shipyards. This is space, ships just sit there if you do nothing. I'm not even all that sure what you'd need a shipyard to fix.

I'm talking about major structural damage, replacing major sublight drive components, etc. Assuming that some units of the fleet are not just lurking in the vastness of space but instead attacking Imperial assets. Isn't there a limit to what can be repaired without overhauling the ship in a drydock?

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-06 03:05pm

Regardless of the logistics of fleeing Yavin and maintaining a fleet the political ramifications of a failed insurrection would be far more detrimental to the fledgling Rebel Alliance than the imposition of the DSI on the known universe.

No one would support a cause that shows no promise. Money is the number one thing that keeps a rebellion going and without support from several wealthy senators or merchants, the cause would fold.

There are references to other rebel factions operating at this time, I believe. Imagine a universe far, far away where no rebel squad managed a major victory and, hence, failed to garner the support needed to assault the Empire.