StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Notes on the hyperdrive/hyperspace. Correction appreciated.
http://www.lab321.ru/~stas/hyperspace_propulsion.html
Thank you for any comment.

I need to go find the page, but in the Han Solo Trilogy, in the Han Solo's Revenge book it talks about Chewie having to go outside for external repairs on the Falcon while in hyperspace.

You want to include the Maul - Tatooine trip in TPM, as it was even faster then anything else we've seen; and I'd like to see that quote from an SFX tech that that is the galaxy, as it being a galaxy is utterly inconsistent with real science

A: Hyperjump distance limitations are uncertain. A jump over hundreds of light-years was made in ROTJ. We know that range largely depends on the state of hyperdrive. A damaged (leaking) hyperdrive's range diminishes significantly (as in TPM). We don't know if this is because a reduce in power or a fuel leak, or something else. Actually in ESB we have seen the Rebel ships hanging outside the Galaxy, and within a few diametres of it, although it is unclear, was this achieved in one or many hyperjumps.

We don't know what that was, but it was a nebulae or something.

Watch ESB again--you can see the disk's rotation. Galaxies do not rotate fast enough to observe. That was not the SW galaxy.


Also don't be so hard on EU higher numbers--you should stress that your calculations determine the lowest neccessary speeds--they are lower limits. The EU higher figures can be seen as upper limits.

Illuminatus Primus

Watch ESB again--you can see the disk's rotation. Galaxies do not rotate fast enough to observe. That was not the SW galaxy.

Hmm, is this also not slow enough in the SE? Just because the Galaxy image from Obi-Wans computer is the very one from ESB, and the image in the computer shows... eh.. the galaxy?
Ender

You want to include the Maul - Tatooine trip in TPM, as it was even faster then anything else we've seen

Need canon distance... Because otherwise objections like "you don't know how many light years is it from Coruscant to Tatooine" are possible.
Cal Wright
Thanks. I think I'll include it. I think in one of the books there was boarding in hyperspace, but not sure where...

Stas Bush wrote:Hmm, is this also not slow enough in the SE? Just because the Galaxy image from Obi-Wans computer is the very one from ESB, and the image in the computer shows... eh.. the galaxy?

Coincidence.

Common sense and knowledge of velocities within a galaxy DEMAND that we cannot observe the galactic rotation. It is not the galaxy. You just couldn't see it turning. Saxton did some calcs that the stars would be having to be traveling at 1000s of c to look like that or so. It is not the galaxy.

Illuminatus Primus

at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

From SWTC.
Perhaps it's not the object which is rotating, but the camera.

but Palpatine's galaxy is of the order of a hundred thousand light years across.

Therefrom, why?

Stas Bush wrote:Illuminatus Primus

at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

From SWTC.
Perhaps it's not the object which is rotating, but the camera.

You just can't get the stars rotating within a stationary disk while the stars outside the disk do not move, and the background of the frigate remains the same with camera affects.

It is just not the galaxy. It cannot be the galaxy. Galaxies do not rotate that quickly--that is simply an intrinsic characteristic of the thing known as "galaxies."

Maybe you should check the SE. But I doubt they changed it. I'll take a peak myself as soon as possible. If the disk is visibly rotating in SE, than it is not the galactic disk.

Stas Bush wrote:

but Palpatine's galaxy is of the order of a hundred thousand light years across.

Therefrom, why?

Major spiral galaxies are usually on the order of 100,000 lyrs in diameter.

Our galaxy is 100,000 light-years in diameter. The Galaxy Far, Far Away is 120,000 light-years across according to Official sources.

Illuminatus Primus

Maybe you should check the SE

I have the complete digitalized versions of ALL the latest movie versions, except the DVDs This is how I managed to capture a whole lot of screens. But I can't figure out that the disk is really rotating in the SE, perhaps due to bad digitalizing quality (the disk slides from right to left of the screen, but doesn't seem to be rotating).

I'll try to check it on my licensed VHS, then make a conclusion. I always thought that the damned rotation problem (and the "red star" glowing, which disturbed me) were gone in the SE.

As for the official sources, really they can make mistakes, so I don't like relying on them much.

Stas Bush wrote:As for the official sources, really they can make mistakes, so I don't like relying on them much.

Continuity policy demands mistakes must be demonstrated before Official evidence is irrelevent. Simply stating that the GFFA is 120,000 lyrs in diameter contradicts nothing in canon and actually sounds quite reasonable.

True, I don't deny this. But I don't like relying on it just for their lack of canonicity. E.g. I don't like using the EU in solving major problems one way or the other way, because not all fans accept that the EU is higher that their own assumptions.

That's what I think it's like, but not all agree that the EU is "cooler" than their thoughts. So - just for that case.

The Official site is EU, really.

Certain source materials like AOTC ICS, VD, etc. are higher than pure EU sources because they're based solely on the movies.

Illuminatus Primus,
I just thought that the SWOS has the EU in separate section, so the Movies section must be movie or canon derived (and that is true to some extent), while the EU is EU-derived.

In fact, I just wonder how the AOTC ICS is based directly on the movie? Doesn't it include weird craft not being in the movie at all or give exact cutaways of the ships (E.g. the Acclamator) which are not explored in the movie? What does "movie-based" mean? I can understand that for novels, radio dramas, comic adaptations, which have some canonicity at least (or may have), but WTH does that mean in case of the ICS?

Fan assumptions are just as valid as Infinities tales. They are both completely noncanon.

Howedar
Nop, don't think so. Because the other part of EU is NC either. Just for the case: imagine that a fan says:
this starship can't do this and this
Starship characteristics don't change in Inf/Tales, because the change of events doesn't mean change of tech, basic laws of physics and so on. So if we see a ship kick a planet to dust in the Infinities, nothing prevents it from doing so in the Continuity. That's the kind of point I'm trying to make.
A fan might say the guns of this ship are worth nothing but in this case the Inf. overpowers the guy's thoughts.

So maybe you should change it to "incorrect fan asssumptions", and add "plausible fan assumptions" to the same category as the "Infinities" tales?


EDIT: By the way, your sig pic is bitchin.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Official site is EU, really.

Certain source materials like AOTC ICS, VD, etc. are higher than pure EU sources because they're based solely on the movies.

AOTC ICS is NOT based soley on the movies. Infact it draws rather heavily on the EU. I have emailed saxton about hwo he got some of this stuff and he explained it to me. The bulk of it is EU.

The EU is official so long as it doesn't contradict anything in the canon. Simple really.

Ender wrote:AOTC ICS is NOT based soley on the movies. Infact it draws rather heavily on the EU. I have emailed saxton about hwo he got some of this stuff and he explained it to me. The bulk of it is EU.

That's irrelevent.

I incorrectly stated my point--it isn't because they're based on anything--that's beyond Suspension of Disbelief and out-of-continuity.

All that matters is that the AOTC ICS is a secondary source regarding solely canon material--and is thus closer to the canon than general EU.

Obviously it was made to fit within EU. Using something from the EU and attempting to come up with overall continuity based ideas does not determine degree of canonicity. TPM isn't EU for using HttE descriptions and name for Coruscant.

The point was made quite elloquently by Ubiqtorate.

Ubiqtorate wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:Excuse me, if I understand this right, the ICS and VD are indeed higher sources than say EU novels and comics.

The honourable Member does indeed understand correctly. Because the Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary and the Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections are both encyclopaedic resources relating directly to the film itself, they are superior evidence to Expanded Universe novels, comic stories, &c., by virtue of what one might call jus propinquitatis.

The Cerasi quote says nothing of where the information comes from--that's out of continuity.

Point is--the AOTC ICS and VD relate and are encyclopeadic sources regarding solely the movies, where as sources like the Essential Guides regard EU material.

Thus the AOTC ICS and VD are closer to the movies than EU novels and EU secondary source materials. Simple.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:AOTC ICS is NOT based soley on the movies. Infact it draws rather heavily on the EU. I have emailed saxton about hwo he got some of this stuff and he explained it to me. The bulk of it is EU.

That's irrelevent.

The fuck it is.

Your statement that it was based "Soley on the movies" is patently false, and now you are trying to twist statements and weasel out like always. Us point is what is irrelvent. You claimed it was based "soley on the movies". It is by Saxtons own admission not. Conceed the point you fucker.

Ender wrote:The fuck it is.

Ender! The whinely little bitch who can't read.

EDIT: And in fact that fact of where the author got is information is completely irrelevent because that has nothing to do with continuity policy a la Chris Cerasi--and it s a red herring. By its nature it is irrelevent.

Ender wrote:Your statement that it was based "Soley on the movies" is patently false, and now you are trying to twist statements and weasel out like always. Us point is what is irrelvent. You claimed it was based "soley on the movies". It is by Saxtons own admission not. Conceed the point you fucker.

You're right--I was wrong to state that, because the author's source of information is an out-of-continuity red herring.

You want to quibble over what I said (although I realized my mistake and noted it--before you posted mind you) instead of the point--that the AOTC ICS is a higher canonical source than general EU because it is intrinsically closer to the movies.

It is a background source that solely refers to the movies, and thus regards only the movies.

General EU regards its own inventions and storylines. See the difference, hatfucker?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:The fuck it is.

Ender! The whinely little bitch who can't read.

I still want a quote freom Star wars saying that the UR is a galactic halo. And while you are at it I'd like an explanation as to how a "galactic halo" can reach into the core and make up 15% of the galaxies volume and have thousands of species in it.

Ender wrote:Your statement that it was based "Soley on the movies" is patently false, and now you are trying to twist statements and weasel out like always. Us point is what is irrelvent. You claimed it was based "soley on the movies". It is by Saxtons own admission not. Conceed the point you fucker.

You're right--I was wrong to state that, because the author's source of information is an out-of-continuity red herring.

You want to quibble over what I said (although I realized my mistake and noted it--before you posted mind you) instead of the point--that the AOTC ICS is a higher canonical source than general EU because it is intrinsically closer to the movies.[/quote]No it is NOT. It's informationcomes from the EU, and not the movies. In fact he ignores the movies in favor of the EU in some places (IE Slave 1's gun)

It is a background source that solely refers to the movies, and thus regards only the movies.

It does not refer soley to the movies, unless Cloak of Deception, Dark Empire 2, and A World to Conquer are all movies now.

General EU regards its own inventions and storylines. See the difference, hatfucker?

All I see is a lying weasel refusing to admit he was wrong again.

Ender wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:The fuck it is.

Ender! The whinely little bitch who can't read.

I still want a quote freom Star wars saying that the UR is a galactic halo. And while you are at it I'd like an explanation as to how a "galactic halo" can reach into the core and make up 15% of the galaxies volume and have thousands of species in it.

Hey shitface. Canon says all the star systems are known and guess what--there are these things called globular clusters with hundreds of millions of stars beyond the galactic disk. Satellite galaxies too--direct from canon visuals. And to those who realize that the galactic core IS adjacent to the galactic halo--galaxies do have 3 dimensions fuckface. Go north or south and you reach halo direct from core without going through spiral arms.

I also want the following still explained away by you:

The opposition against the Chronology & NJO novels' map.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:1. One canon map (AOTC)
2. One official map (Behind the Magic)
3. 100% explicit canon quote (Jocasta Nu)
4. Novel descriptions of concentric galactic regions, with Wild Space being the last one, followed finally by the UR
5. Scientific knowledge that one could map and colonize most of a galaxy with relativistic travel in 25,000 years
6. Scientific knowledge that a spiral galaxy has no great navigation problems that'd prevent exploration of a certain quadrant of the spiral arms
7. Common sense that a galaxy-spanning civilization that has had hyperdrive that can travel across a galaxy in a day should have colonized rather uniformly
8. Common sense that even if maps do get outdated in some places, it is supremely unlikely this would happen for so long and so specifically in one place as to result in one quadrant basically isolated and full of unknown cultures.
9. Scientific knowledge that the spiral arms of a galaxy are in different proportions in relation to the galactic core than shown in the cited map.

Plus 10. beyond the NJO/Chronology maps--no explicit official contradiction of the halo theory.

Quite simply canon > official and the UR is not part of the galactic disk shitface. Besides the image on the maps could be above the disk and obscuring that area of the disk and thus have no contradiction.

But let's not dig up the past. You still never really replied--and you still didn't read the sources you yourself cited. I'm just noting your lack of reading comprehension.

Evidence for the rediculous "slice of galactic disk" theory. An interpretation of Chronology/NJO maps that assumes that the UR label refers to a part of the galactic disk--in direct contradiction of the aforementioned reasons. But that'd be Ender, eh?

Ender wrote:No it is NOT. It's informationcomes from the EU, and not the movies. In fact he ignores the movies in favor of the EU in some places (IE Slave 1's gun)

Blah blah blah. Irrelevencies. And I have no idea what you're talking about. Slave 1 has amidship lasers in AOTC...?

All the quote says is "distance from movies". The AOTC ICS relates solely to the movies as an encyclopaedic source. Is this difficult to understand? Maybe for someone who can't read.

Ender wrote:It does not refer soley to the movies, unless Cloak of Deception, Dark Empire 2, and A World to Conquer are all movies now.

IDIOT.

Does it inform us on ships and technologies and things from Dark Empire 2, Cloak of Deception, etc.

Or is it about stuff in AOTC?

Ender wrote:All I see is a lying weasel refusing to admit he was wrong again.

Suck my cock you little coward.

For those who would like to enjoy pure Ender, complete with freedom from silly things like reading comprehension, please view this thread.

I'll let your complete lies, inability to read, and failure to muster the balls to respond or even actually concede speak for themselves.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Hey shitface. Canon says all the star systems are known and guess what--there are these things called globular clusters with hundreds of millions of stars beyond the galactic disk. Satellite galaxies too--direct from canon visuals. And to those who realize that the galactic core IS adjacent to the galactic halo--galaxies do have 3 dimensions fuckface. Go north or south and you reach halo direct from core without going through spiral arms.

I also want the following still explained away by you:

Great, I still wnat an official star wars quote saying the UR are in a galactic disc since last time I sasked for it you provided one relating in zero ways to sw.

The opposition against the Chronology & NJO novels' map.

1. One canon map (AOTC)

Which does not contradict the official map. Many maps show only the US. Does that mean that Canada and mexico do not exist? the lack of the sattalite galaxies does nto make them false. It is a limited map, not a fuill one, smae as those US ones.

2. One official map (Behind the Magic)

Easy: You are a fucking liar. Map Gee, that looks exactly likje all the maps showing the UR if you rotate it 90 degrees. Zero contradiction.

3. 100% explicit canon quote (Jocasta Nu)

One that is easily rationalized by the statement in the ICS that the maps have fallen out of date.

4. Novel descriptions of concentric galactic regions, with Wild Space being the last one, followed finally by the UR

Wild space is stated to be at the edge of KNOWN space. the unknown reguons are, guess what UNKNOWN!

5. Scientific knowledge that one could map and colonize most of a galaxy with relativistic travel in 25,000 years[/quopte]Which they fucking did, the chiss are but one example of an old colongy that went it's own way.

6. Scientific knowledge that a spiral galaxy has no great navigation problems that'd prevent exploration of a certain quadrant of the spiral arms

Which in no way contradicts the point that the UR are a sparsely populated galactic halo.

7. Common sense that a galaxy-spanning civilization that has had hyperdrive that can travel across a galaxy in a day should have colonized rather uniformly

They did, they just didn't keep gong back. Lost groups are well known, see Adumar, the Chiss, or the Sith Empire.

8. Common sense that even if maps do get outdated in some places, it is supremely unlikely this would happen for so long and so specifically in one place as to result in one quadrant basically isolated and full of unknown cultures.

If there is no reason to go out there, why keep the maps updated? Hell they barely go out to the outer rim, as it is easier to stay in the core and inner rim, as stated in Inside the worlds

9. Scientific knowledge that the spiral arms of a galaxy are in different proportions in relation to the galactic core than shown in the cited map.

There is also scientific knowledge that you cannot go faster then light, that hypermatter does not exist, etc etc etc. Suspension of disbelief.

Plus 10. beyond the NJO/Chronology maps--no explicit official contradiction of the halo theory.

And ZERO official support for it.

Quite simply canon > official and the UR is not part of the galactic disk shitface. Besides the image on the maps could be above the disk and obscuring that area of the disk and thus have no contradiction.[/quyote]And you have no proof.

But let's not dig up the past. You still never really replied--and you still didn't read the sources you yourself cited. I'm just noting your lack of reading comprehension.

Evidence for the rediculous "slice of galactic disk" theory. An interpretation of Chronology/NJO maps that assumes that the UR label refers to a part of the galactic disk--in direct contradiction of the aforementioned reasons. But that'd be Ender, eh?

“Hundreds of thousands of stars
It was easy to say the words, but much more difficult to comprehend what they actually meant. On a map, the Unknown Regions comprised only 15 percent of the total volume of the galaxy; but when that 15 percent became the search area for something as small as a planet - which on the cosmic scale was much, much smaller then a needle in a haystack – the true immensity of the task became all too apparent” – Force Heretic 2: Refugee page 246

The UR is part of the total volume of the galaxy, not an outside slice.

Blah blah blah. Irrelevencies. And I have no idea what you're talking about. Slave 1 has amidship lasers in AOTC...?

The fucking blaster, not the lasers. He chose to go by the damage it does in comic battles instead of what we see in the movies.

All the quote says is "distance from movies". The AOTC ICS relates solely to the movies as an encyclopaedic source. Is this difficult to understand? Maybe for someone who can't read.

That is not what you said fucker. You said it was based soley on the movies.

IDIOT.

Does it inform us on ships and technologies and things from Dark Empire 2, Cloak of Deception, etc.

Or is it about stuff in AOTC? [/quopte]It draws it explanations for what we see in the movies form those sources.
Suck my cock you little coward.

For those who would like to enjoy pure Ender, complete with freedom from silly things like reading comprehension, please view this thread.

I'll let your complete lies, inability to read, and failure to muster the balls to respond or even actually concede speak for themselves.

Imagine that, I have a life and duty that means I can't constantly lock horns with you, who apparently has all the time in the world to sit here and howl at the universe.

Don't worry. Since I have free time and most of the sources on hand now to show exactly how wrong you are, I'll deal with that shortly. In the mean time, go back to yelling how you are right and projecting your own flaws on to everyone else, just like you did when Connor beat your ass in the TL thread. For now, goodnight.

Ender wrote:Great, I still wnat an official star wars quote saying the UR are in a galactic disc since last time I sasked for it you provided one relating in zero ways to sw.

And a lot of us want an official SW quote calling the Executor a 17 km command ship and the ISD known as the Imperator-class.

Ender wrote: Which does not contradict the official map. Many maps show only the US. Does that mean that Canada and mexico do not exist? the lack of the sattalite galaxies does nto make them false. It is a limited map, not a fuill one, smae as those US ones.

Actually it showed clearly that all stars were mapped in the galactic disk. It also portrayed a galaxy that is far different from the Chronology/NJO ones.

Ender wrote: Easy: You are a fucking liar. Map Gee, that looks exactly likje all the maps showing the UR if you rotate it 90 degrees. Zero contradiction.

Actually it reinterates the "concentric rims" from novels. Where the UR is beyond the Outer Rim--the outer concentric ring.

Ender wrote: One that is easily rationalized by the statement in the ICS that the maps have fallen out of date.

Bzzzt. That's the sound of a wrong answer. Chiss territory encorporates a whole continuous sector. Thrawn's House Phalanx mapped 240 sectors.

The Chiss sector contains a dozen or so colonized worlds. The House Phalanx doesn't support any vessels larger than 300 meters. Evidently not only are we talking about large, continuous expanses of territoy, and not much in them.

But Ender thinks in a galaxy where the hyperdrive can take them across the disk in a matter of days and billions of colonized worlds are utilized for mining--that huge expanses of the galaxy just are avoided and forgotten for thousands of years.

There's a reason why Saxton, Wong, and I all are among those that think it is fucking stupid.

Ender wrote:Wild space is stated to be at the edge of KNOWN space. the unknown reguons are, guess what UNKNOWN!

Uh ok. This doesn't contradict anything I said.

Ender wrote:Which they fucking did, the chiss are but one example of an old colongy that went it's own way.

Yes and they just forgot about hundreds and hundreds of sectors that while supposedly part of the disk--appear quite empty.

Ender wrote:Which in no way contradicts the point that the UR are a sparsely populated galactic halo.

Uhm...yeah. That's my point. The UR is a sparsely populated galactic halo and certain sections of the galaxy wouldn't be simply lost or more difficult to get to.

Ender wrote:They did, they just didn't keep gong back. Lost groups are well known, see Adumar, the Chiss, or the Sith Empire.

I suppose there is a new Empire growing the Core Worlds that no one knows about. Adumar is simply technologically retarded. The Chiss are just a group of humans go awry somewhere. The Sith Empire was never lost--they traveled beyond known space and were later rediscovered which suggests hyperdrives and navigation technology was poorer in the past.

Ender wrote:If there is no reason to go out there, why keep the maps updated? Hell they barely go out to the outer rim, as it is easier to stay in the core and inner rim, as stated in Inside the worlds

Yet the Mining Guild keeps tabs on the billions of mining worlds throughout the spiral arms. Yet Tattooine was just as settled 4000 years before ANH.

We know the spiral arms don't have preferencial areas of resources and structure--there wouldn't be gaps of useless stuff. And the corporate entities of the Republic were quite expansionist.

Ender wrote:There is also scientific knowledge that you cannot go faster then light, that hypermatter does not exist, etc etc etc. Suspension of disbelief.

That's just absurd. Besides--the canon map in AOTC shows correct proportions and shows a galaxy that is not the erroneous maps' galaxy.

Ender wrote:And ZERO official support for it.

Circumstancial support from EU descriptions, and esp. from the canon and specific comment that all the star systems are known and mapped. Period.

Ender wrote:And you have no proof.

So let's adopt a clearly fucking stupid point of view that assumes the GFFA just generally avoided a section of the galactic disk for 1000s of years.

Ender wrote:

“Hundreds of thousands of stars
It was easy to say the words, but much more difficult to comprehend what they actually meant. On a map, the Unknown Regions comprised only 15 percent of the total volume of the galaxy; but when that 15 percent became the search area for something as small as a planet - which on the cosmic scale was much, much smaller then a needle in a haystack – the true immensity of the task became all too apparent” – Force Heretic 2: Refugee page 246

The UR is part of the total volume of the galaxy, not an outside slice.

The galaxy could refer to the galactic disk, the region around the galactic disk or the overall halo. Keep in mind that areas that are technically not part of the galaxy proper, like Rishi, are considered part of "the galaxy."

Ender wrote:

Blah blah blah. Irrelevencies. And I have no idea what you're talking about. Slave 1 has amidship lasers in AOTC...?

The fucking blaster, not the lasers. He chose to go by the damage it does in comic battles instead of what we see in the movies.

Where?

Ender wrote:

All the quote says is "distance from movies". The AOTC ICS relates solely to the movies as an encyclopaedic source. Is this difficult to understand? Maybe for someone who can't read.

That is not what you said fucker. You said it was based soley on the movies.

You nitpick this. I admitted I used a red herring. Point is--the AOTC is still a higher canonical source than general EU and that is why.

Ender wrote:It draws it explanations for what we see in the movies form those sources.

Red herring. TPM drew Coruscant from HttE. AOTC ICS is about the AOTC movie, and is thus not about EU and is thus closer to the movies.

Ender wrote:Imagine that, I have a life and duty that means I can't constantly lock horns with you, who apparently has all the time in the world to sit here and howl at the universe.

Funny--I'm in one of the most competative international programs in existance, have a job, a girlfriend, and a set of friends. Silly how that works.

Ender wrote:[Don't worry. Since I have free time and most of the sources on hand now to show exactly how wrong you are, I'll deal with that shortly. In the mean time, go back to yelling how you are right and projecting your own flaws on to everyone else, just like you did when Connor beat your ass in the TL thread. For now, goodnight.

Anyone who reads the thread can see how you're a liar and can't read cited sources. Enjoy. And Connor couldn't grasp that the VD described something that is universally contradicted by canon visuals, thus when the ICS offers an explanation that is at least partially supported by canon visuals, the ICS explanation is preferable.