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if the empier had "25.000" ISD's and who knows how many other ships. how'd it lose to the rebelion if as you guys say it only had 15 cap ships (at the time of yavin)

The rebellion doubltess had more capital ships than that, they just would have had difficulty assembling their diffuse galactic network in time to make the decisive strike.

As for the defeat--the EU suggests that Palpatine's lack of a successor caused the Empire to collapse into a patchwork of warlords vying for absolute power. The Rebellion just picked up the pieces.

25k isds is such a niceforce to beat yourself up with.

Lt. Nebfer wrote:if the empier had "25.000" ISD's and who knows how many other ships. how'd it lose to the rebelion if as you guys say it only had 15 cap ships (at the time of yavin)

You have to consider the old rule about secrets: the more people in on the secret, the more likely it is to come out into the open. Had the Empire pulled more ISDs out of their usual duties to participate in the trap at Endor, there would have been a higher chance that the Rebels would find out and choose some other stratergy to destroy the Second Death Star.
Likewise, the more ship the Alliance take from their normal hit-and-run attacks to prepare for the DS2 assault, the more likely the Empire would find out that they were gathering. In fact, the Empire did find out where the Rebels were gathering, and the Rebels didn't know that they Empire knew they were coming anyway.

All of the Imperial factions fought against each other following the Death of the Emperor. Many of the battles that resulted dwarfed the Battle of Endor in terms of the number of ships involved, and the remainder of the Empire was so weakened by such battles that the newly renamed New Republic was left as one of the most powerful remaining factions. Other planets, tired of Imperial rule, joined them, and still others did so for protection when their regional warlord was defeated. The NR had soon amassed a very large navy and a great number of ships and planets.

It should be noted that much of the New Republic's fleet was composed of former Imperial Star Destroyers.

You have to consider the influence and control that the Emperor had. When he perished, the Empire was thrown into turmoil. Such a level of direct psychological control caused many Commanders, Captains and Admirals to lose concentration and abandon hope. This was the Emperor's power.

Like dictators in our own past, the loss of their lives ended their campaigns. Alexander, Napoleon and Hitler are very good examples of this.

Thrawn (not the moderator), had a theory that the Emperor used the Force to enhance his troops, similar to the Yuuzhan Vong war coordinator, for those of you who read NJO. When Vader killed the Emperor, the link was severed, and their skills were thrown back.

The Emperor is the Empire.

The Rebel fleet an Endor was the ENTIRE Alliance fleet (canon radio drama IIRC).

The Imperial fleet at Endor was a single sector fleet (canon radio drama).

I've said it before-

It was NEVER about the Empire versus the Rebel Alliance

It was the HUNT for Luke Skywalker. The Rebels were a minor issue.

Evidence:

Luke Skywalker- stronger in the force than his father

- Destroys the Death Star with the force- an impossible shot for the targeting computer of the X-Wing.
- "He could destroy us"- Emperor Palpatine identifiying the magnitude of the threat in Empire Strikes Back

The entire Endor trap was set up to kill two birds with one stone.

FIRST AND FOREMOST:

- Turn Luke Skywalker to the Dark Side. The destruction of the Rebel fleet and the death of his friends on Endor would be enough to let his anger take over. It almost worked.

and only secondly

- Get rid of the Rebellion.

If Luke hadn't managed to turn his father-

- The Emperor would still live, and escape. The destruction of the DS2 would've been a mere annoyance- a drop in the ocean.

Darth Wong wrote:It should be noted that much of the New Republic's fleet was composed of former Imperial Star Destroyers.

Really? You have a source? Quote?

From Expanded Universe evidence many times over, it is stated (in conversation or character thought) when someone sees an ISD, that this particular ISD was captured at Endor, or that it was captured at this battle. Starfighters of Adumar (reading it AGAIN, it's just that GREAT!) Wedge, I believe, is thinking about the Allegiance noting her sister ship Agonizer are in orbit above Adumar. So with at least one reference I can say that the New Republic did use ISDs against the Empire. In fact, Wedge's Gamble at least one ISD appears over Coruscant under the Rebel Alliance flag. There again, Rebel Dream is another captured ISD. If I am not mistaken the Rebel Alliance/New Republic never purchased an ISD or ordered any from Kuat. It would stand to reason in so much as they would rather use Mon Calamari Cruisers and Frigates. A nasty reminder of the harsher days of the Empire is not what a fledgling government wants. If somebody is willing, re read Before the Storm, I just stomached as much as I could trying to find out any mention of the Rebels being mainly arrayed with ISDs. However, I did find this.

Black Fleet Crisis Book 1 Before the Storm paperback
p143
'Yes' A'baht said firmly 'The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-Class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group.'



Back on topic, the Empire lost due to arrogance. I stated before in another thread, that the presence of a Sith Lord giving orders usually fucked over Imperial military structure. ESB prime example. Vader is marching around barking orders, and everyone trips over themselves, runs into asteroids, and even ram thier ships into each other trying to accomplish the mission. Allowed to conecentrate they would have had the Falcon. RotJ again,

'We're in attack position now'
'Hold here.'
'We're not going to attack?'
'I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned. We just need to keep them from escaping.'

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:It should be noted that much of the New Republic's fleet was composed of former Imperial Star Destroyers.

Really? You have a source? Quote?

Yeah, the Courtship of Princess Leia hich I felt like breezeing through awhile ago. The New Repulic had the Tyrant as Leia's Flagship to sybolize the fall of the Empire and the breaking of Death Squadron. And the Hapans had maybe a dozen Imperator Star Destroyers. Not to mention Rogue Warlords and surrending ones, example Grand Admiral Grant.