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Things that made ROTJ seem so damn lightweight in comparison to the rest of the OT


- A second Death Star- I mean like ... come on. As a SW/ST debater I love it but plotwise it SUCKS ASS.
- Boba Fett killed by physical comedy- honestly ...
- Wookies replaced by Ewoks due to cuteness/ commercialism
- The lame space battle: rousing music, great fighter combat ... capital ships might as well just be scenery
- That they had a lack of time to make all those ships they were going to fill out the Rebel fleet with.
- The Executor laid low in a pathetically unsatisfying and CHEAP way
- The use of A New Hope footage during the superstructure run (X-Wing getting blown away)
- Lando making it out of the Death Star: in the original cut he was blown away- test audiences however didn't like it so it was changed; as if we needed MORE triumphalism.
- Luke rolling his lightsabre to Vader being cut. Vader is obviously holding Luke's lightsabre while he's trying to coax him into coming out- I'm sure others have noticed this. Him force pulling it out of his hand would've been pretty cool.
- Lightsabre fight was too short.

Things I liked about ROTJ

- Excellent music. Not as good as Empire Strikes Back, but good. From the beginning of the Battle of Endor it was spectacular- I don't think anyone disputes the coolness of the music when Luke screams noooooo!
- All the Empeor/ Vader/ Luke scenes. Very strong IMO.

Feel free to add your peeves/loves

Yes lets hope old Lucus goes back adds in ten-twenty mintues of space battle with ships being blow sky high and some Cap ship fighting

The main reason I like SW so much is that Lucas and company never concentrated on science or fleet size or ship malfunctions that could be put into 20th century wording, it concentrated on characters and a plot with the SW universe as a backdrop.

All those negatives (other than Boba and Wookie) have to do with character development. The DS2 is symbol for how bloody crazy the Empire was to rely on a weapon with obvious faults. That Admiral Piett doesn't engage with the Executor and sector fleet illustrates both the Emperors' control over his own and his disdain for his enemy by firing the DS2 superweapon on the rebel fleet.

The cuteness of the movie is sickening, but as for major characters living on to see victory, none of the other films lost a major good guy until the rereleased ANH, even then it was just Biggs, and Obiwan lives on in another form.

I think another reason the special effects seem lame is bacause they had no powerful computers back in 1983 when it was released. You know how hard it is to get capital ships to fight with a resemblence to time and space so the audience understands the flow of the battle (see DS9 Dominion Wars)?

Things I liked about RotJ:
1) Speeders!
2) Crazy fight on the barge
3) Lando, you crazy bastard
4) Leia. 'nough said
5) Saber fight

All said, you are absolutely right, it was the weakest of the first three films

Alright, HDS has his EU and I have my RotJ. It's on!!!

Plotwise, the Death Star II accomplishes many things. That the hopelessness of beating the Galactic Empire just took another fifty steps in the wrong direction. Not only that, it was a way to bring Luke over to the dark side and have a nice little planet destroying weapon at your disposal.
This next part is taking from the Magic of Myth. A book solely about Star Wars lore, and it's meaning behind it.

p101 Hardback

The Resurgence of Evil
Regeneration is not just the province of the good, however, Evil too has a tendency to rise again. In Greek mythology, this resurgence is symbolized by the monster Hydra, with its doglike body and many snaky heads. Whenever one of these heads is cut off, two new ones spring up in its place. The hero Hercules finally vanquishes the monster with the help of his nephew Iolaus; as Hercules cuts off each of the Hydra's heads, Iolaus applies a blazing branch to the stumps, preventing more heads from growing.
In the Star Wars mythology, the resurgence of evil takes the from of a new Death Star, under construction by the Empire even while the Rebel Alliance has continued to struggle against its tyranny.

Boba Fett dying? Hey, I wasn't really disappointed, Really, until the EU came around, he was basically a bounty hunter that got the jump on the Falcon. Cool as hell, but his reputation wasn't established. Lucas said, in the interview at the beginning of the special editions first release, that he couldn't understand so much devotion, so look forward to a history in the prequels.

Everybody screams commercialism. Possibly. I'll definitely look at that as a high possibility. However, in that interview later on, he said by RotJ Chewbacca was established as a great mechanic and that you could see Wookies were not so primitive. That he loves the concept of primitive versus technology and thus having them overcome the superior. Ewoks, Gungans. I would go so far as to venture this idea. He liked drawing from WWII and historical wars for battle references in Star Wars. They might have been small fuzzy creatures, but then that would fit with a French Indian war. French and Indains versus the British. Sort of fit that template.

Another exerpt from Magic of Myth
p102-105

...Endor is the name of an ancient town that appears in the Old Testament-the abode of a witch or medium whom Saul consults on the eve of the battle of Bilboa. This Endor, too, contains a certain sorcery, for once again the path has led the heroes into the magical forest. There they are confronted by the small furry Ewoks, who like all elves, fairies, and other inhabitants of fariy-tale forests, may be either dangerous or helpful. The Ewoks' lush green environment and harmony with nature make a warm contrast to the austere, cold technology of the Empire. In fact, while in the Ewok village, Leai wears a soft animal-skin dress and lets down her magnificent hair, perhaps reflecting the subtle magic of the Ewoks' connection to the natural world; thier creative powers are shown by the fact that they are the only creatures in the trilogy shown with children.

Lame space battle? Granted the Super Star Destroyer should have been shown wiping out a cruiser in a barage, but then again, it was very intense already.

How do you know that was recycled footage? Even if it was, so what. The X-Wing exploded, how many different ways do you want to see it go up? Let's not make it more spectacular than we have to, so as not to take away from the run.


Now here's one I will definitely have to hunt down. I could have sworn I had a book about it at home, but I can't find it. im afraid it might have been on the internet. The Falcon exploding was supposedly a huge myth. I've even seen images, but these were not real images from earlier footage. I will most certainly be hunting down my source on this one.

In the novelisation I believe Luke calls his sabre to his hand from Vader's belt. He might have rolled it out to him also. That would be cool as hell to see. The sabre fight seemed a little short from this point. Earlier it was just a test of Luke's metle. I personally think the sabre fight in RotJ had far more weight than the other sabre clashes. ESB fight was pretty climatic, but there again it was just Luke rushing headlong into something he was ill prepared for. RotJ he wasn't just fighting for himself, he was fighting for evertyhing and even his father.

I love RotJ. It's my favorite movie of all time. This movie does what I like in a movie. It shows a group of people, doing what it takes to kick the unholy ass out of the bad guys. 'nuff said.

Here here. You have it right DG Cal Wright. The battle of Endor set the standard for a sci fi battle in my humble opinion. Yeah the SSD died a stupid death, but I think the space battle was better than the sabre duel. The duel did not have enough flash, though the underlying meaning and symbolism was greater than ESB. ESB was a wonderful movie and is #2 in my book, but RotJ is a solid 1.

"In the Star Wars mythology, the resurgence of evil takes the from of a new Death Star, under construction by the Empire even while the Rebel Alliance has continued to struggle against its tyranny."

Oh I agree with the concept, just not the execution. Why is an exact Death Star replica (albeit bigger) the only way to accomplish this. As for resurgence of evil- didn't Empire Strikes Back establish this?

"Lame space battle? Granted the Super Star Destroyer should have been shown wiping out a cruiser in a barage, but then again, it was very intense already."

The fighter combat was cool, no doubt. However, ALL the big ships were just scenery- they almost did ABSOLUTELY nothing- there was jack shit ship to ship combat- the odd laser blast here and there, and that's it. Extremely disappointing.

"How do you know that was recycled footage? Even if it was, so what. The X-Wing exploded, how many different ways do you want to see it go up? Let's not make it more spectacular than we have to, so as not to take away from the run."

It is. It's just a peev, not very important- it just always struck me as bodgy.

"Now here's one I will definitely have to hunt down. I could have sworn I had a book about it at home, but I can't find it. im afraid it might have been on the internet. The Falcon exploding was supposedly a huge myth. I've even seen images, but these were not real images from earlier footage. I will most certainly be hunting down my source on this one"

Bob Brown's Star wars discussion site: http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/

He makes a few good ponts- especially the Ewok point- ppl who saw Star Wars in 1977 HATED to be treated like kids in 1983.

Starwars.com had a feature recently about the "urban legends of Star Wars" where they basically say that Falcon being destroyed was never filmed and that its merely an 'urban legend'.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/feat ... index.html

But then again, who knows? They could be lying to us...

Vympel wrote:"In the Star Wars mythology, the resurgence of evil takes the from of a new Death Star, under construction by the Empire even while the Rebel Alliance has continued to struggle against its tyranny."

Oh I agree with the concept, just not the execution. Why is an exact Death Star replica (albeit bigger) the only way to accomplish this. As for resurgence of evil- didn't Empire Strikes Back establish this?

Yes. Re read the quote from the mythos. ESB did nothing but establish the cold ruthlessness of evil. Not the resurgence. The Death Star coming back in RotJ acts as the Hydra monster. (I probably didn't post that part.) Where Hercules would keep cutting of the heads, but from each stump two new heads would form. That is what the Death Star II represents. It not only came back, but BIGGER. And badder as well, the first Death Star might not have been geared towards using it's superlaser against capital ships.

"Lame space battle? Granted the Super Star Destroyer should have been shown wiping out a cruiser in a barage, but then again, it was very intense already."

The fighter combat was cool, no doubt. However, ALL the big ships were just scenery- they almost did ABSOLUTELY nothing- there was jack shit ship to ship combat- the odd laser blast here and there, and that's it. Extremely disappointing.

The capital ships couldn't go anywhere. The fighters were dancing around doing thier job. It would have been nice to see them get down and dirty a little more, but that just isn't going to happen in an event like this.
"How do you know that was recycled footage? Even if it was, so what. The X-Wing exploded, how many different ways do you want to see it go up? Let's not make it more spectacular than we have to, so as not to take away from the run."

It is. It's just a peev, not very important- it just always struck me as bodgy.

We all have em.

"Now here's one I will definitely have to hunt down. I could have sworn I had a book about it at home, but I can't find it. im afraid it might have been on the internet. The Falcon exploding was supposedly a huge myth. I've even seen images, but these were not real images from earlier footage. I will most certainly be hunting down my source on this one"

Bob Brown's Star wars discussion site: http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/

He makes a few good ponts- especially the Ewok point- ppl who saw Star Wars in 1977 HATED to be treated like kids in 1983.

Someone right after you posted a link to starwars.com about star wars myths. I haven't found that damn Insider yet. Not only that, but people who say it in 77 hated being treated like a kid. Here's one for ya. The majority of people I talk to know that dislike the Ewoks, were young kids in 83 to begin with. Maybe some of the adults didn't like it, but I doubt that seriously. I was 19 when TPM came out, and I actually like Jar Jar to a degree. It did feel like they pushed things on him somewhat, but I never felt like they were mainly entertaining kids or insulting my intelligence. Lucas just has a sense of humor and enjoys irony.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. In Ep3 I want a MASSIVE space battle. Possibly even the battle for Coruscant itself. I want someone on the planet to ook up into the DAY sky and have it completely covered in green and red from turbolaser fire and explosions.

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I agree.

ROTJ would have made a lot more sense if Wookies were in the place of Ewoks

Gandalf wrote:ROTJ would have made a lot more sense if Wookies were in the place of Ewoks

That was the original idea, but it was modified at the last minute. Also note that Ewoks appear to be stronger than humans.

An interview with Lucas really hits home on the Ewok/Wookiee vantage. Basically he did say that he wanted Wookiees. When he looked at the situation by the time RotJ rolled around, he realized that Chewbacca was this really advanced being, and that the other Wookiees were like that as well. He wanted to show primitive vs technology. In fact the magic of myth explains this out a lot too. Like why Luke shuts off his targeting computer. While the good guys might use technology the don't heavily rely on it. Were as the Empire relies on it to much. So back to the point, he wanted to show primitive natives being the downfall of the technologically advanced Empire.