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Charlemagne19 wrote:Counterpoint, Yssane Isard probably did utilize Cloning technology during her tenure as misterss of the Empire...specifically she utilized the same sources of clones that the Emperor had used in Carida.

There was no shortage of troops and manpower or equipment during Yssane's reign. The problem was that the Empire was in the throws of civil war and breakup. Lets not forget she 'let' the Republic have coruscant out of a plan to destroy it from within.

She realized I think the Empire needed to be proven the legitamate government, a billion billion billion billion clones would get the entire galaxy to turn against her en masse should she even have the time or wealth to do so.

What she needed was the people to NOT join the New Republic and that required humiliating them. No ammount of military force will conquer the galaxy as a whole (The Yzzung Vong prove that) alone.

As for Pelleon I remind everyone Pellaeon was never really commander of the Empire until after Daala's resignation as Supreme Commander.

He was head of the Outer Rim territories fleet out of mutual respect and the fact none of the Admirals seemed to have any idea what the hell they were doing. A process that continued under Pestage through Isard with Zsing until the rise of Thrawn.

The fact Pelleon was head of the remanents of the Empire when Thrawn came is just a example of the fact that his faction prospered as the others were destroyed.

No doubt he was getting any stormtroopers he still got from Carida and the other sources that the Empire usually got them from.

That is unless the shortage of stormtroopers in the Empire was caused by palpatine ceasing production from the Deep Core.

Also it is possible if Cracken and company knew about the Clone facilities that hundreds of them might have been located and destroyed and thus create an actual loss of clone sources.

As for why pelleon never used such an idea afterwards my answer is alittle simpler...

Pellaeon was repulsed I thought by Thrawn's use of clones and preferred actual military soldiery serving the Empire because they wanted to rather than reality. A veteran of the clone wars I imagine Palpatine refrained from reviving clone tech because of the very real reason its a pandora's box.

Why the USA hasn't used nukes more often.

I also reiterate clones are not really economically preferrable to recruitment. Without ysalamari and knowing nothing about the Spaarti and Kaminoan cloning methods the only benefit clones have over normal soldiers is that they can be conditioned to be mindless automatons incapable of disobeying orders due to morality.

in other words to produce an instant army of SS fanatics.

It seems to me its much easier to just recruit from the billions and billions of citizens of the galaxy to outfit your capital ships (the real power in the galaxy) as well as transports and so forth.

Thrawn needed the clone troops for only a two reasons I think

A:) Fear
B:) Expediancy

No doubt billions would have flocked to Thrawn once he proved the Empire was once again the New order they dreamed about

As Thrawn's own charisma has infected these boards...how would they affect the SW masses

It was shown that Daala and Pelleon revived the Empire up to managable war levels simply by accepting aliens and women into the ranks

Is it just me or is something weird about his conclusions?

I know it isn't the dumbest but it seems he's making some weird conclusions or weird leaps in logic or something. I can't put my finger on it.

http:// boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11396339&page=6

He implies that the Empire would find something morally repugnant to employing the equivalent of jack-booted thugs. That statement is partially correct. His logic is not. He concludes that the remnants should have preferred “normal” human beings merely because they might have been available – which we know is untrue because of the degree to which Imperial holdings shrunk during the warlord years. There are, incidentally, three possible conclusions of varying worth:

(A) Palpatine disliked clones as a political expedient. Having forged the Galactic Empire from the remnants of a defunct Republic which had relied on cloned armies not long ago, the Emperor was probably loath to challenge universal precepts of morality. While this tends to fly in the face of Base Delta Zero activities and his own undying love of large, planet-killing super weapons (not to mention the Spaarti vats and his own biologically engineered successors), cloning was evidently taboo. Even in Vision of the Future and under the tenure of the New Republic, the Fel clones confide to Han and Leia that they would be summarily killed if exposed. Pallaeon was certainly colored by this line of thought.

(B) According to Wizards of the Coast, Kaminoan cloning procedures actually demanded a degree of “imprinting.” ARC Troopers do for instance tell Mace Windu of the other clones: “They grow up loyal to the Republic – or they don’t grow up at all.” Such evidence supports the notion that there is in fact a degree of philosophical indoctrination intrinsic to Kaminoan the birthing of clone soldiers. We can extend this to imply a fear on Palpatine’s part of facing other cloned armies or leaving his own open to outside influence. Even while there is a laborious process involved on the personal level by which each clone takes on certain beliefs and codes of conduct, one must assume that as beings essentially mass-produced, they all suffer similar flaws or “trap doors” that leave them open to similar stimuli. Certain leaders – particularly Sate Pestage – were probably slaves to these worries.

(C) Lack of access. While Thrawn as a pragmatist was only too happy to supplement his numbers with clones, Zsinj didn’t necessarily have that option. Isard appeared to have it intermittently or on a small scale. A full-scale “cleansing” of clone-oriented technology appears to have occurred during the Rebellion. The difficulty of procuring clone technology outside Chiss or older Imperial stockpiles was extraordinary no doubt.

Charlemagne’s opinions are clearly wrong. None of the Imperials would have had access to limitless manpower in territories that doubtless required internal policing and were shrinking as is. Garrisons were already thin and Stormtroopers thin on the ground almost everywhere. Even while Isard had a Super Star Destroyer under her command, base personnel on Thyferra were particularly few (i.e. to the extent that she kept only two Imperial Guardsmen). If there hadn’t been a dirth in the first place, Thrawn probably wouldn’t have felt clones necessary. It is doubtful that he used them without some unseen repercussion and revulsion even within his own borders.

As for the Empire’s having a problem with faceless yes-men and jack-booted thugs? That’s where he goes wrong. There’s nothing amiss about the concept – just about the consequences and difficulties involved.

He is right that cloning an army isn't cost-effective. It would be much cheaper to brainwash orphaned children. But, for some reason, cloning could have been fashionable at the point, or Palpatine didn't think of something better. It could also be that since Kamino was so isolated (and happened to be a totally obscure backwater planet with barely any contact to other systems, but advanced cloning facilities), the clone army could be made in total secrecy.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:It could also be that since Kamino was so isolated (and happened to be a totally obscure backwater planet with barely any contact to other systems, but advanced cloning facilities), the clone army could be made in total secrecy.

Just my 2 cents but I think that's the reason.

It seems likely to me that the Empire's cloning facilities were probably located in the Deep Core.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It seems likely to me that the Empire's cloning facilities were probably located in the Deep Core.

That makes a lot of sense, considering how Kamino was in a dwarf galaxy outside the galactic plane. You'd want something like that hidden in such secrecy, but still pretty accessable.

Hey, was Wayland located in the Outer Rim or in Wild Space/the Unknown Regions?

Is there a book based on Pallaeons rule of whats left of the Empire after Daalas resignation or whatever? Ive read Dark Saber but i know of no other books based on that plot after it. Is there any?

Jaris Merc wrote:Is there a book based on Pallaeons rule of whats left of the Empire after Daalas resignation or whatever? Ive read Dark Saber but i know of no other books based on that plot after it. Is there any?

Technically, the first part of the New Jedi Order series, I believe.

EDIT: There's also the Hand of Thrawn duology...

He is right that cloning an army isn't cost-effective. It would be much cheaper to brainwash orphaned children. But, for some reason, cloning could have been fashionable at the point, or Palpatine didn't think of something better. It could also be that since Kamino was so isolated (and happened to be a totally obscure backwater planet with barely any contact to other systems, but advanced cloning facilities), the clone army could be made in total secrecy.

From where are these children coming? Think about it. Palpatine's Empire dissolved barely twenty-five years after the already horrific Clone Wars. That was itself after a period of galaxy-wide rebellion. And now we're talking about the utter dissipation of the largest military-industrial complex ever built. The manpower drain on each and every planet would have been absolute. A clone army is expensive, but its advantages far outweigh its disadvantages if you're an out-and-out pragmatist (as was Thrawn). Kamino's secrecy is just it. Palpatine couldn't afford to confront even his own Empire with clones. Too morally repugnant.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Hey, was Wayland located in the Outer Rim or in Wild Space/the Unknown Regions?

Wayland was just a mostly useless and forgotten Mid/Outer Rim world.

Wayland wasn't one of Palpatine's important drop-offs anyway. It was kind-off a storage closet for momentos and second-rate antique models of rare technologies.

The Kaminoan process and the Imperial processes that manufactured the GeNodes as well as the clones mentioned in the old '70's article were all superior to the standard Spaarti method.

Palpatine and the Immdar Alpha Project both had access to superior cloaking technology.

Axis Kast wrote:Palpatine couldn't afford to confront even his own Empire with clones. Too morally repugnant.

Huh?

No less than 40% of the Imperial Stormtroopers were clones of a single line.

Am I the only one who has an EXTREMELY hard time thinking Palpatine would find anything, and I mean anything morally repugnent, worng, or offensive? The guy cut deals with the Ssi ruuk, had the Jedi children exterminated, directly or indirectly cause the deaths of trillions, tortured people for the hell of it, brought slavery back into the core, had mass genocides conducted, and pretty much did any nasty or despicable thing concievable. I really don't buy he argument that he would not do something because it struck him as wrong.

Its irrelevent, Pax Emperica says explicitly that 40% of all stormtroopers had Dower's face.

4 out of 10 Stormies were clones of a single line--this is pre-OT, but keeping in mind GL's statements and Decipher cards--the Empire didn't suddenly stop mass-use of clone stormtroopers.

How is my opinion made irrelevent by something I did not comment on at all?

Ender wrote:How is my opinion made irrelevent by something I did not comment on at all?

The assertion that Palpatine wasn't procuring large percentages and quantities of clones for any reason (including moral repugnancy) is irrelevent--because we know he did.

I wasn't talking about your comments.

I agree cloning is not an efficient way to build an army. Because the force doesn't like it and the clones go wacko if grow to quickly. I takes a decade to grow a mature clone for this reason. You can of course use ysalmiri (spelling?) to block the force around the clones and grow in a fortnight but i beleive they were amazingly good clones??

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Kaminoan process and the Imperial processes that manufactured the GeNodes as well as the clones mentioned in the old '70's article were all superior to the standard Spaarti method.

Are you saying there are three different kinds of cloning processes?

Let's see:
1) Kaminoan, slooooow, but reliable
2) Spaarti, fast but unreliable without Ysalamari
3) ????

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its irrelevent, Pax Emperica says explicitly that 40% of all stormtroopers had Dower's face.

What is Pax Emperica? Could you give me some quotes and page numbers?

Axis Kast wrote:From where are these children coming?

n

It's a galaxy-spanning republic. There must be some orphans somewhere.

His Divine Shadow wrote:1) Kaminoan, slooooow, but reliable
2) Spaarti, fast but unreliable without Ysalamari
3) ????

There are A LOT of cloning processes. I'm currently writing up a little article on them that I'm hoping someone will host.

With have the Kaminoan process, which produces very reliable and inherently loyal clones but is very expensive and takes 10 years with humans minimum.

With have a process from the 1970s fan magazine article which seems superficially very similar to Kaminoan cloining--but the vats had the ability to grow the clones to adulthood, whereas we have no evidence the Kaminoans could do this.

The baseline Spaarti method which can grow clones to adulthood and artifically construct memories and a consciousness while the clone is in growth, but the Force pressure from such rapid growth indicates that clones grown in less than one year will suffer psychological disorders. With ysalamiri clones could be grown in days. The Spaarti method clones did not appear to have the ingrained loyalty that Kaminoan clones did or that the GeNodes do. Even ysalamir rapid-grown clones seemed somewhat unstable (ie. Major Grodin Tierce).

The process that manufactures the GeNodes as shown in Pax Empirica produces clones at adulthood with artificial memories and experiences--they think they're volunteers and do not realize they are clones. They also have remarkable psychological subconscious programming--even seeing other clones of their line they do not realize they are clones, although they realize the other clones are clones, they are programmed to feel too polite to discuss cloning with other clones of their line. Any feeling of disenchantment or rebellion from the Empire automatically activates a knee-jerk "I love Big Brother" reaction. GeNodes are incredibly loyal. They appear to have faked memories of training and such--it is likely the GeNodes are an advancement of Spaarti technology, perhaps adding some of the precision and psychological conditioning that the Kaminoans used. They're true SRDs. Soliders-ready-to-deploy. Perfect stormtroopers.

Palpatine's personal cloning vats appear to be advancements on Spaarti technology as well.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its irrelevent, Pax Emperica says explicitly that 40% of all stormtroopers had Dower's face.

What is Pax Emperica? Could you give me some quotes and page numbers?

I don't own it myself yet. Apparently it is an LFL-sanctioned short story that comes in the Galactic Battlegrounds official guide.

I'll bring quotes and possibly page numbers from a contact ASAP.

Jaris Merc wrote:Is there a book based on Pallaeons rule of whats left of the Empire after Daalas resignation or whatever? Ive read Dark Saber but i know of no other books based on that plot after it. Is there any?

As Spanky pointed out, there's Hand of Thrawn duology by Timothy Zahn. The books are Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future, both very good Star Wars novels.

Huh?

No less than 40% of the Imperial Stormtroopers were clones of a single line.

This was before or after the Second Death Star exploded?

Am I the only one who has an EXTREMELY hard time thinking Palpatine would find anything, and I mean anything morally repugnent, worng, or offensive? The guy cut deals with the Ssi ruuk, had the Jedi children exterminated, directly or indirectly cause the deaths of trillions, tortured people for the hell of it, brought slavery back into the core, had mass genocides conducted, and pretty much did any nasty or despicable thing concievable. I really don't buy he argument that he would not do something because it struck him as wrong.

No matter how powerful or evil, Palpatine still had to respect universal moral values in the form of the general revulsion toward clones. It would have created too many problems.

It's a galaxy-spanning republic. There must be some orphans somewhere.

This idea peeters off after Palpatine’s original Emperorship then. Keep in mind that the Imperial warlords in any given region probably couldn’t risk having entire populations rebel as a result of forced conscription of youth.

Axis Kast wrote:

Am I the only one who has an EXTREMELY hard time thinking Palpatine would find anything, and I mean anything morally repugnent, worng, or offensive? The guy cut deals with the Ssi ruuk, had the Jedi children exterminated, directly or indirectly cause the deaths of trillions, tortured people for the hell of it, brought slavery back into the core, had mass genocides conducted, and pretty much did any nasty or despicable thing concievable. I really don't buy he argument that he would not do something because it struck him as wrong.

No matter how powerful or evil, Palpatine still had to respect universal moral values in the form of the general revulsion toward clones. It would have created too many problems.

He didn't respect a single other moral value, why would he respect that one?

He didn't respect a single other moral value, why would he respect that one?

Think very logically. We’re not talking about carrying a moral value. We’re talking about respecting a universal revulsion and skirting broaching a controversial issue that was at the heart of a war that raged across the galaxy less than twenty-five years earlier. Why stir up the hornet’s nest – at least publicly?