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Why is it that if the Stormtroopers are a pure light infantry,shock force,we never see Imperial Army forces play a huge role in garrisson,occupation,invasions and the like in the EU?

Even if the Stormtroopers are a Waffen SS type political force,why is it when the EU states that the heavy artiellery,armour and the like are concentrated in the Imperial Army,we don't see them?

So,can we cook up a more approiate role for the Imperial Army and stormtroopers outside of the WEG hierarchy?

If your going to ignore WEG, just pretend that the Imperial Army doesn't exists. Its Stormtroopers or nothin' They have AT-ATs and E-Webs, what more do they need. Besides, nowhere in any of the movies, novel or radio dramas (i.e. cannon) is there ever a mention of an Imperial Army.

As a side note, Scouttroopers are always refered to as Imperial Scouts (or just by the generic "troopers"), they may not be part of the Stormtroopers organization.

Free your mind.


Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

Aaron2 wrote:If your going to ignore WEG, just pretend that the Imperial Army doesn't exists. Its Stormtroopers or nothin' They have AT-ATs and E-Webs, what more do they need. Besides, nowhere in any of the movies, novel or radio dramas (i.e. cannon) is there ever a mention of an Imperial Army.

As a side note, Scouttroopers are always refered to as Imperial Scouts (or just by the generic "troopers"), they may not be part of the Stormtroopers organization.

Free your mind.


Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

They changed the name form Grand Army of the Republic to Imperial Army.

Admiral Johnason wrote:They changed the name form Grand Army of the Republic to Imperial Army.

They did or they will? Besides the Grand Army is all clonetroopers, therefore the Imperial Army is all clonetroopers, therefore the army is all stormtroopers. OK.


Aaron

Admiral Johnason wrote:

Aaron2 wrote:If your going to ignore WEG, just pretend that the Imperial Army doesn't exists. Its Stormtroopers or nothin' They have AT-ATs and E-Webs, what more do they need. Besides, nowhere in any of the movies, novel or radio dramas (i.e. cannon) is there ever a mention of an Imperial Army.

As a side note, Scouttroopers are always refered to as Imperial Scouts (or just by the generic "troopers"), they may not be part of the Stormtroopers organization.

Free your mind.

Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

They changed the name form Grand Army of the Republic to Imperial Army.

Bzzt.

The Grand Army of the Republic, is a seperate military branch from the Republican Army.

The Republican Army was formed from the ground forces of the united Planetary Security Forces and post-Military Creation Act conscripts.

They become the Imperial Army.

The Republican Grand Army, on the other hand, is analogous to the Marines, and becomes the Stormtroopers.

Aaron2 wrote:Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

Question. Does this mean you think you understand SW as the vision originally was, and now know SW better than Lucas?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Aaron2 wrote:Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

Question. Does this mean you think you understand SW as the vision originally was, and now know SW better than Lucas?

Yes, he does. His correct title would be a "Brownian Heretic".

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Aaron2 wrote:Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

Question. Does this mean you think you understand SW as the vision originally was, and now know SW better than Lucas?

Yes, he does. His correct title would be a "Brownian Heretic".

Brun him, burn him!!! He's... She's a witch!

Note: Witch is a femine term and warlock just sounds too weird for me.

Aaron2 wrote:If your going to ignore WEG, just pretend that the Imperial Army doesn't exists. Its Stormtroopers or nothin' They have AT-ATs and E-Webs, what more do they need. Besides, nowhere in any of the movies, novel or radio dramas (i.e. cannon) is there ever a mention of an Imperial Army.

As a side note, Scouttroopers are always refered to as Imperial Scouts (or just by the generic "troopers"), they may not be part of the Stormtroopers organization.

Free your mind.


Aaron (Brownian Cannonist)

Even Frank wasn't willing to step out so far,and frankly,neither am I.I'm willing to accept the WEG interpretation of the Stormtroopers being light infantry.Remember,AT-ST and AT-AT drivers,not to mention General Veers are not stormtroopers.It should also be noted that we haven't seen a high-level stormtrooper officer,but we seen Imperial stormtroopers being placed under Navy and Army command.(ANH vs TESB)

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The Grand Army of the Republic, is a seperate military branch from the Republican Army.

The Republican Army was formed from the ground forces of the united Planetary Security Forces and post-Military Creation Act conscripts.

They become the Imperial Army.

The Republican Grand Army, on the other hand, is analogous to the Marines, and becomes the Stormtroopers.

You must have seen a different version of AotC than I did. The one I saw only had a "Grand Army" and didn't have anything else. The Planetary Secutiy Forces (such as those on Naboo from EPI) are not under the command of the Republic. That's the -whole point- of the clone army!

EPIII hasn't happened yet; its all subject to change and the whim's of Lucas' children. As of now the Republic only controls clones.

I don't "know SW better than Lucus*", I watch the movies and decide for myself. For example, there is nothing is the movies or other canon sources that states the General Veers is not a stormtrooper (or, rather, never was a stormtrooper officer). Its common for high ranking officers (those above colonel) to wear different uniforms from field officers who, typically, dress in the manner of the rank-and-file troops. For example, in ESB we see a low ranking stormtrooper (snowtrooper) officer wearing normal snowtrooper gear but with rank insignia. Those officers we see in ESB and RotJ wearing the grey duds are just higher ranking than those wearing the black duds. Pretty simple. You don't need to invent an entirely new branch of the military just for them.

Aaron

*Of course, this statement assumes that Lucan knows (or even cares about) all trivial EU and WEG material. If you believe that .....

Aaron2 wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The Grand Army of the Republic, is a seperate military branch from the Republican Army.

The Republican Army was formed from the ground forces of the united Planetary Security Forces and post-Military Creation Act conscripts.

They become the Imperial Army.

The Republican Grand Army, on the other hand, is analogous to the Marines, and becomes the Stormtroopers.

You must have seen a different version of AotC than I did. The one I saw only had a "Grand Army" and didn't have anything else. The Planetary Secutiy Forces (such as those on Naboo) are not under the command of the Republic.

EPIII hasn't happened yet. As of now the Republic only controls clones.


Aaron

No, but scraps of info that points to a military force is available. The two officers on the Radient durring the opening of TPM for starters. They both were wearing uniforms and those uniforms were cut pretty close to Imperial uniforms some 20 or 30 years later, indicating some sort of organised Republic navy. The Chancilors Guard (though ceremonial) points to some sort of organised security force.

What the Republic lacked (until AotC) is a dedicated assualt force to take and hold territory. But that doen't mean they lacked any sort of security forces at all. Perhaps they rely on amassing various systems security forces to form an army in case of emergency, thus 10 thousand systems threatening to leave the Republic would consistute a huge problem because those 10 thousand systems would no longer contribute men/women/aliens for the common defense, hence the Grand Army of the Republic (answerable only to the Republic) was needed.

Knife wrote: No, but scraps of info that points to a military force is available. The two officers on the Radient durring the opening of TPM for starters. They both were wearing uniforms and those uniforms were cut pretty close to Imperial uniforms some 20 or 30 years later, indicating some sort of organised Republic navy. The Chancilors Guard (though ceremonial) points to some sort of organised security force.

I agree. However, seeing one unarmed diplomatic cruiser and a bunch of guards doesn't make for a very strong case. Alderaan had a well armed corvette filled with armed and uniformed soldiers yet they were "peaceful and had no weapons".

Are you suggesting that the Republic military could have defeated the Trade Federations army/fleet around Naboo in a straight up fight without relying on conscripting planetary or sector defense forces? Even a tiny fraction of the Imperial forces could have done so.


Aaron

Actually there are mentions of Imperial Army in the EU. In HttE when Karade and the smuglers are attatcked in the cantina the dialogue mentions that only a few stormies attack with the rest just being plain Army.

Also i would like to point out that a person in Stormy armour isn't necessarially a stormie. In the Eu it mentions several times Imperial Forces utilizing Stormy armour. Most specifically in the Rogue Squadron books.

I love purists. They come in with all their presumption and throw out all the evidence and have no real reason other than they feel Lucas shouldn't care about EU, which has precisely diddly shit to do with canon policy and the official continuity of Star Wars.

Aaron2 wrote:*Of course, this statement assumes that Lucan knows (or even cares about) all trivial EU and WEG material. If you believe that .....

...than apparently you can read his commentary. He's even given EU writers pointers before.

Point is, canon policy is to rely on official unless contradicted by canon. I'd like to see good reason to throw out the interpretation other than "it is EU and WEG." It is supported by the non-stormtrooper officers and independent Navy trooper personnel.

However, speaking from a pure-canon perspective, since the Clone Troopers only number 1.2 million, and the massive droid-assembly lines can easily outperform the Kaminoan cloning process, the Republic never becomes the Empire, as it loses to the Seperatists for having no army worth speaking of on a galactic scale. The argument is irrelevent.

"I will create a Grand Army of the Republic..."

From an EU perspective, the Planetary Security Forces are nationalized following the Battle of Geonosis, and form the backbone of the to-be Republican Army. This will eventually become the Imperial Army. The Republican Grand Army, as the Clonetroopers are known. They will evolve into the Imperial Stormtroopers.

IP, don't even bother. I remember tangeling with this fucker last summer. It's pointless. He can't debate for shit, and when it comes ot overall starwars he couldn't find his ass with both hands and a GPS system.

Aaron2 wrote:I agree. However, seeing one unarmed diplomatic cruiser and a bunch of guards doesn't make for a very strong case. Alderaan had a well armed corvette filled with armed and uniformed soldiers yet they were "peaceful and had no weapons".

Yes it does, the fact that every sovereign system seems to have its own security force yet still a standardized military outfit that represents the Republic and not any individual system shows at least a basis of a all encompassing republic military.

The Corellian Corvette from Aldreaan was in an era where the galaxy was in a state of civil war for over 40 years. It would seem approprate that ship designs for mundane purposes would incorperate more weapons after 40 years of war than in the realitive peaceful prequel era.

Are you suggesting that the Republic military could have defeated the Trade Federations army/fleet around Naboo in a straight up fight without relying on conscripting planetary or sector defense forces? Even a tiny fraction of the Imperial forces could have done so.

Actualy I don't know. It could be the remements of a once mighty Republican military that has shrunk in size and stature over the years due to neglect and no purpose. It could also mean that the security needs of the Republic did not need a large standing army, rather a small security force or even a small leadership core that conscripted armies from the independent systems would form around for war.

What is shown though, is enough evidence to assume that the Republic had some sort of military durring TPM yet lacked the dedicated assualt forces that the Clone army was made to serve as.

Aaron2 wrote: I don't "know SW better than Lucus*", I watch the movies and decide for myself. For example, there is nothing is the movies or other canon sources that states the General Veers is not a stormtrooper (or, rather, never was a stormtrooper officer). Its common for high ranking officers (those above colonel) to wear different uniforms from field officers who, typically, dress in the manner of the rank-and-file troops. For example, in ESB we see a low ranking stormtrooper (snowtrooper) officer wearing normal snowtrooper gear but with rank insignia. Those officers we see in ESB and RotJ wearing the grey duds are just higher ranking than those wearing the black duds. Pretty simple. You don't need to invent an entirely new branch of the military just for them.

Aaron

*Of course, this statement assumes that Lucan knows (or even cares about) all trivial EU and WEG material. If you believe that .....

Aaron,who were you on Brown site?

The lesser canon data suggest that Veers is an Army officer as opposed to a stormtrooper officer.This of course,presumes that one interprets the data as the Stormtroopers not being the Army and that two seperate organisation exists.

One should also note this.Those in black duds,were naval troopers.We cannot assume that stormtroopers are the sole infantry force in the Empire for the main reason that we do see others types of infantry troopers in the Empire.How does one explain the double presence of both naval troopers,those wearing black from stormtroopers on the Death Star?Endor is explainable,as both commands were responsible for security,but the Death Star?If stormtroopers are the Army light infantry force,what are they doing on a naval ship?

Darth Pounder wrote:Actually there are mentions of Imperial Army in the EU. In HttE when Karade and the smuglers are attatcked in the cantina the dialogue mentions that only a few stormies attack with the rest just being plain Army.

Also i would like to point out that a person in Stormy armour isn't necessarially a stormie. In the Eu it mentions several times Imperial Forces utilizing Stormy armour. Most specifically in the Rogue Squadron books.

Can you list those examples?Cause the current WEG hierarchy does not mesh well with the EU usuage.

The Republic had a Naval corps,as per TPM novelisation.Thus,it stands to reason that a semi-military force exists per canon.

The EU and the Judicals suggest that the Republic has disbanded her external security forces and rely totally on internal security protection as afforded by paramilitary units like Judical and the Jedi.

Exactly; which is why the Marines/Waffen SS/SpecOps that is the Clonetroopers isn't enough. There are mere millions of them as of the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Geonosis. A Galactic Army requires vastly more.

However; the Clonetroopers simplify the war greatly: the worst and hardest battles and campiagns would be fought by homeworld-less, family-less manufactured men. They are expendible from a politicans point-of-view. However, the rest of the military, your camp-followers and guys doing occupation and other more "boring jobs" would be formed by nationalizing the Planetary Security Forces from every sector, supplemented by the conscription and recruiting started once the war drive built up.

WEG is totally wrong. Their misinterpretation of everything and lack of research result in glaring inconsistencies, such as entire ranks missing from the command structure. If you want to learn about insignia, ranks, etc. look at Saxton's page on this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/insignia/

Don't look anywhere else.

YT300000 wrote:WEG is totally wrong. Their misinterpretation of everything and lack of research result in glaring inconsistencies, such as entire ranks missing from the command structure. If you want to learn about insignia, ranks, etc. look at Saxton's page on this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/insignia/

Don't look anywhere else.

Saxton buys the Stormtroopers-as-a-seperate-branch-from-the-Army, which is the issue.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

YT300000 wrote:WEG is totally wrong. Their misinterpretation of everything and lack of research result in glaring inconsistencies, such as entire ranks missing from the command structure. If you want to learn about insignia, ranks, etc. look at Saxton's page on this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/insignia/

Don't look anywhere else.

Saxton buys the Stormtroopers-as-a-seperate-branch-from-the-Army, which is the issue.

I was refering to the earlier question of what is the actual rank structure. Sorry that I was too lazy to press the quote button.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

YT300000 wrote:WEG is totally wrong. Their misinterpretation of everything and lack of research result in glaring inconsistencies, such as entire ranks missing from the command structure. If you want to learn about insignia, ranks, etc. look at Saxton's page on this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/insignia/

Don't look anywhere else.

Saxton buys the Stormtroopers-as-a-seperate-branch-from-the-Army, which is the issue.

But WEG itself in the Imperial Sourcebook states that the stormtroopers are a mere light infantry force.

If so,who pilots the AT-AT and AT-STs?Obviously Imperial Army forces.

PainRack wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:Actually there are mentions of Imperial Army in the EU. In HttE when Karade and the smuglers are attatcked in the cantina the dialogue mentions that only a few stormies attack with the rest just being plain Army.

Also i would like to point out that a person in Stormy armour isn't necessarially a stormie. In the Eu it mentions several times Imperial Forces utilizing Stormy armour. Most specifically in the Rogue Squadron books.

Can you list those examples?Cause the current WEG hierarchy does not mesh well with the EU usuage.

I'll lave a hunt arround later. Most of my books are in a box in my roof space.