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I have read here and on other boards people who are either skilled in fencing or kendo and they quite often rip into the sword play from the various Wars movies.

They point out huge holes in a Jedi's fighting style or brag about how one of two real swordsmen could kill Darth Maul in mere moments.

Where here is my stance.

You are full of it. You completely forget two very simple facts when you do all this flawed bragging.

1. Force Precognition - Sure watch the movie. Pause the tape and tell me "see here, see this huge hole in Mauls defences. I could gut him right here and win" Well you are full of shit. Why? Easy, why is that hole in his defence right there? Simple cause the Jedi's lightsaber is NOT there. Force Precognition means you do not have to be perfect on defence. I don't have to protect my entire body. I merely have to protect where I know your going to strike at me. So tell me which is better a Jedi could protect 100% of his body with say 80% effectiveness or he could use Force Precog and protect the 10% he knows you are going to strike at with 99.9% effectiveness.

I know which one I would use considering you only once ever see a Jedi take a hit from a lightsaber and not be killed or crippled by the blow (Vader being hit by Luke in the shoulder in ESB).

So while a Jedi or Sith MAY LOOK incompetent in their swordfights they are far from it. They are fighting on a whole different level from a normal swordsman. They do not defend their entire body, they merely defend where you are striking at them. If that appears to leave holes in their defences you are mistaken. If you were to strike at them there the lightsaber would move to block your block and suddenly it would look like the Jedi was open to attack somewhere else. Those "holes" in their defences only exist in spots they are not being attacked at.

2. Lightsabers dont waver - This is why Darth Maul is not nearly as easy yo kill as everyone seems to think he would be. Everyone says you can strike at one end of his weapon and force the back of of his weapon into him. Yet we never see this happen. In fact we never EVER see an tranferal of kinetic energy from one lightsaber to another. None at all. When person A swings his lightsaber at person B and person B blocks you always see the blade of person A bounce back like he just hit a rubber wall. This happens every time. A great example is the final duel in ROTJ. When Vader collapses Luke strikes at Vader several times. Every single blow effortlessly bounces of the blade of Vader, finally Luke switches tactics and swings behind the unmoving static blade of Vader and slices Vaders hand off at the wrist. Now realistically while Vader was on the ground vainly holding his blade over his head Luke's first or second massive overhand strike should have driven both his own and Vaders blade back into Vaders body. This didnt happen though.

My assumption is that this happens for two reasons. One the blades being pure energy have no mass and thus no real kinetic energy behind them. Two the blades themselves naturally repel each other.



Still think Bob the professional fencer down the street could beat Darth Maul in a matter of seconds?

Wouldn't it just be easier to tell them that its a film.....

Dorsk 81 wrote:Wouldn't it just be easier to tell them that its a film.....

I was under the impression that the whole idea behind this site was to explain things in the movie purely within the context of the movie as if it was its own reality.

MrAnderson wrote:

Dorsk 81 wrote:Wouldn't it just be easier to tell them that its a film.....

I was under the impression that the whole idea behind this site was to explain things in the movie purely within the context of the movie as if it was its own reality.

The guys that say that they're master swordsmen aren't gunna really care about that though are they?

I would like to watch any of them go into combat against a Jedi Knight, considering that Jedi use the Force to interfere with their opponent's movements. I don't even think you have to fall back on "Force precognition." You can just assume that the Force prevents a Jedi from attacking his opponent in a particular area, at a particular time.

Master of Ossus wrote:I would like to watch any of them go into combat against a Jedi Knight, considering that Jedi use the Force to interfere with their opponent's movements. I don't even think you have to fall back on "Force precognition." You can just assume that the Force prevents a Jedi from attacking his opponent in a particular area, at a particular time.

Like Anakins Force wall against Dooku which was mentioned in another thread and that was a Padawan against a Master......all be it the most powerful Padawan ever.

Dorsk 81 wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:I would like to watch any of them go into combat against a Jedi Knight, considering that Jedi use the Force to interfere with their opponent's movements. I don't even think you have to fall back on "Force precognition." You can just assume that the Force prevents a Jedi from attacking his opponent in a particular area, at a particular time.

Like Anakins Force wall against Dooku which was mentioned in another thread and that was a Padawan against a Master......all be it the most powerful Padawan ever.

Dooku was also very surprised that Anakin was able to pull that off while fighting thus showing that Anakin was quite skilled at doing two things at once.. I got the impression that putting up a wall that strong took quite a bit of effort and thus probably not a tactic used often by Jedi against other Jedi.

MrAnderson wrote:

Dorsk 81 wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:I would like to watch any of them go into combat against a Jedi Knight, considering that Jedi use the Force to interfere with their opponent's movements. I don't even think you have to fall back on "Force precognition." You can just assume that the Force prevents a Jedi from attacking his opponent in a particular area, at a particular time.

Like Anakins Force wall against Dooku which was mentioned in another thread and that was a Padawan against a Master......all be it the most powerful Padawan ever.

Dooku was also very surprised that Anakin was able to pull that off while fighting thus showing that Anakin was quite skilled at doing two things at once.. I got the impression that putting up a wall that strong took quite a bit of effort and thus probably not a tactic used often by Jedi against other Jedi.

And if you tired it against your average swash-buckling joe from down the pub...well, they'll be drinking their pintd through a straw for the rest of their lives

Good thread. And no, Dorsk, you can't just say it's a film

Vympel wrote:Good thread. And no, Dorsk, you can't just say it's a film

Ok, if I went into an in depth explanation about how the Jedi would block them with Force walls and dampen their abillities and know what you were going to do (ignoring the fact that I've been barred...) they'd hit the floor after having passed out from drink too much cos all the guys round here are slack jawed yocals! Although I don't know anyone who has said they could take a Jedi...

MrAnderson wrote:You are full of it.

PreCog is meaningless when an enemy has enough skill to see the clumsyness of the enemy and get around that. Your argument is full of it and doesn't change the fact that these people are merely actors (ok, some are more so) and they can't do everything. The best explination is that Jedi's screw with each others capabilities but that explination doesn't completely fly because then they should be concentrating on pure swordsmanship if their powers don't work.

The Dutch ,Portuguese, and spanish merchant that first reach the japanese market had the same outlook when looking at the japanese Samurai.

Spanish and the Dutch merchant had many followers of the leading fencing and dueling school and after spotting several clashes between Samurai, came to to the conclusion that they would stand a chance against a master fencers.

The several time when The two styles of combat met, the result was that the fencers lost their sword arms and after that Merchant crews took to wearing flintlock pistol and ship captain forbided the wearing of swords to insure no further attempts to prove the superioty of Fencer over the Samurai.

Looking at this, I doubt that a fencer would stand any better chance against a Jedi ( even if arm with a light sabre). While a Kendo master may, do a little better, but with the Jedi supernatural skills would be hard press.

Alyeska wrote:

MrAnderson wrote:You are full of it.

PreCog is meaningless when an enemy has enough skill to see the clumsyness of the enemy and get around that. Your argument is full of it and doesn't change the fact that these people are merely actors (ok, some are more so) and they can't do everything. The best explination is that Jedi's screw with each others capabilities but that explination doesn't completely fly because then they should be concentrating on pure swordsmanship if their powers don't work.

How can precog be 'meaningless' if one is able to block? We know Jedi can do this, we see it repeatedly. In one-on-one situations, a Jedi will almost always be able to deal with a blaster shot, arguably harder to defend against than anything else. Only those who were more diplomat than warrior seemed to fall in Geonosis, and that was when badly outnumbered.

We can lament how 'clumsy' some moves seem, or how 'open' they are, but there is no denying they are effective. It's also Canon that Jedi fight two battles at once: One with Precog-enhanced blademanship, and one where they seek to constrict an opponents movements. Note the difference between movement against Maul, an angry, energetic Sith, and against Dooku, one tutored under Yoda. Only Yoda himself is able to bounce around, and Dooku is forced to a near standstill.

SirNitram wrote:How can precog be 'meaningless' if one is able to block? We know Jedi can do this, we see it repeatedly. In one-on-one situations, a Jedi will almost always be able to deal with a blaster shot, arguably harder to defend against than anything else. Only those who were more diplomat than warrior seemed to fall in Geonosis, and that was when badly outnumbered.

There is a difference between having Precog and being able to do something about it. Any really skilled swoardsman could easily deal with the openings left by a Jedi because the Jedi simply leaves way to many.

We can lament how 'clumsy' some moves seem, or how 'open' they are, but there is no denying they are effective. It's also Canon that Jedi fight two battles at once: One with Precog-enhanced blademanship, and one where they seek to constrict an opponents movements. Note the difference between movement against Maul, an angry, energetic Sith, and against Dooku, one tutored under Yoda. Only Yoda himself is able to bounce around, and Dooku is forced to a near standstill.

Might I point out that is because the actor did all his own stunts and he joked that he might not live to the end of the filming of the movie...

Alyeska wrote: There is a difference between having Precog and being able to do something about it. Any really skilled swoardsman could easily deal with the openings left by a Jedi because the Jedi simply leaves way to many.

Except its not merely the person reacting to precognition. One is actually "giving" themselves over to the Force, and letting it act for them.

Alyeska wrote: The best explination is that Jedi's screw with each others capabilities but that explination doesn't completely fly because then they should be concentrating on pure swordsmanship if their powers don't work.

Right. So your answer is to stop fighting your opponent on the Force level, and then they end up immobilizing you and skewering you. And expending the effort to do that/use the Force to counter abilities, does take a degree of concentration and effort, which means you can't devote as much effort to pure swordsmanship as you seem to think.

Its not just a matter of powers not working.. the battle is both of the Force and of a physical nature (AOTC novelization), and both play an important part (as in the Dooku and Yoda ba ttle.) In fact, more advanced lightsaber duels involve the Force far more than physical skill (AOTC VD)

Alyeska wrote:

MrAnderson wrote:You are full of it.

PreCog is meaningless when an enemy has enough skill to see the clumsyness of the enemy and get around that. Your argument is full of it and doesn't change the fact that these people are merely actors (ok, some are more so) and they can't do everything. The best explination is that Jedi's screw with each others capabilities but that explination doesn't completely fly because then they should be concentrating on pure swordsmanship if their powers don't work.

ROFLMAO

You still don't get it.

1. The CONCEPT behind this board is to look at the movies as their own reality. That means you do not use the "its a movie they are actors" excuse. If this is too complicated a concept then don't waste my time in this thread.

2. Force Precog, combined with the demonstrated reflexes that Jedi have, means the apparent clumsiness is merely an illusion created by your lack of understanding of what they are doing. As an example go watch an army special forces trooper go crawling through some underbrush silently. The method they use to move, place their feet, and shift their weight looks quite humurous and clumbsy. It is not though, it is part of how they movie to minimize their noise.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Alyeska wrote: The best explination is that Jedi's screw with each others capabilities but that explination doesn't completely fly because then they should be concentrating on pure swordsmanship if their powers don't work.

Right. So your answer is to stop fighting your opponent on the Force level, and then they end up immobilizing you and skewering you. And expending the effort to do that/use the Force to counter abilities, does take a degree of concentration and effort, which means you can't devote as much effort to pure swordsmanship as you seem to think.

Its not just a matter of powers not working.. the battle is both of the Force and of a physical nature (AOTC novelization), and both play an important part (as in the Dooku and Yoda ba ttle.) In fact, more advanced lightsaber duels involve the Force far more than physical skill (AOTC VD)

Also it is fairly obvious to anyone that the force is a more defensive than offensive power. Any Padawan 5 year old can block blaster bolts with their lightsaber. It takes someone with Dooku, Palpatine, or Yoda's level of power to use the Force in a directly offensive method like force Lightning.

This further explains why Jedi duels can last so long, their defensive abilities as a rule get a larger power boost than their offensive abilities.

Alyeska wrote:Might I point out that is because the actor did all his own stunts and he joked that he might not live to the end of the filming of the movie...

I believe the proper term here is "suspension of disbelief." Lee's condition has no bearing on Count Dooku, who is supposed to be quite powerful.

Alyeska wrote:Might I point out that is because the actor did all his own stunts and he joked that he might not live to the end of the filming of the movie...

That's not true. Christopher Lee was involved in VERY few shots of his battle in AotC. He says so numerous times, including interviews with SW Insider, and even on the AotC DVD set itself. He explains in detail that while this sword fight is the best he's ever been involved in, he himself took almost no part in it. Instead, his head was digitally added to a stunt man, who did almost all of the combat sequences seen during the film.

Does anyone actually believe that Jedi are not taught to use lightsabres, and just depend on Force abilities and reflexes to carry the day? I don't think the order would send its people into the galaxy armed with weapons that are very difficult to use, without having taught them how to use them, and just tell them to depend on the Force.

IT is obvious, regardless, that the Jedi rely entirely on force power to facilitate their combat- without it, they are wildly incompotent. They lack skill- if it wasn't for their force precog and reflexes, they would be helpless.

The fighting style of the Jedi is exactly the same as the overall attitude of the Jedi: arrogant, complacent and overconfident.

Jedi sword moves may look uber-deadly to most people, but anyone with experience in either sport fencing or a "real" sword art can easily recognize that their stance and moves are sloppy to the point where a non-Jedi swordmaster stands a good chance of beating even the most skilled Jedi we've seen in a straight one-on-one duel. All a Jedi really has going for him is incredibly fast reaction speed due to limited combat precognition -- but a swordmaster can react nearly as fast by reading his opponent's body language, and sheer skill makes up the rest.

I dont know how relanvent it is but in DARTH MAUL :SHADOW HUNDER
Maul leaves himself open on purpose to manupulate his enemy into striking wear he wants them to.
So it might not be bad swordsmanship it could be very good swordsmanship giving the impression of being bad.

then how come Luke, Vader, Obi Wan, and all the other Jedi we see show the same general incompotence?