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Hiya.

I'm mostly concerned with answering the following question:

How powerful are the MF's quad-laser batteries?

From what I saw in ANH, I would say the quad-laser batteries
are capable of several hundred gigajoules/shot. Given
that four of them alternate shots, that's reaching just
shy of a kiloton/sec. firepower.

However, some of my esteemed colleages have argued for
substantially higher firepower in the ST vs. SW forum--reaching
500 kilotons/shot IIRC (I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong).

I believe this is excessive. I think to take out unshielded fighters,
let alone *vaporize* them, one needn't carry a weapon that puts
out somewhere around 800 GW or so.

All thoughts are welcome.

I believe this is excessive. I think to take out unshielded fighters,
let alone *vaporize* them, one needn't carry a weapon that puts
out somewhere around 800 GW or so.

Except that not what the Falcon was desgined for, The weapons are not ment to attack Unshielded Fighters if you remeber Lando was the first know owner of the Falcon when it was just a tramp freighter and he upgraded the weapons when he used it as his personal ship and also as a side venture Smuggling,


The Han got it and upgraded the FP quiet a bit more in adition to starting to carry missiles around with it. TIE Fighters did not come into existance until around four years after we know Lando gets the ship and Han picks it up the year before when Z-95 Head-hunters are the Common Fighter which have Shields = an X-Wing but are slower and less armored. Saying that why carry powerful weapons around to just shoot unshielded TIE's is a fallacy when the Falcon was armored before TIEs ever came into use and considering Solo spent much of his time in the Coprate Sector which used Dread-naughts and IRD's (which are roughly equivlant to A-Wings in speed and Shielding) is rediculous

I claimed 500KT.

I claim whatever it takes to match the Defiant actually. Mr. Bean's right though. The quad lasers on the Falcon weren't originally for TIE Fighters. Solo was a smuggler. He'd likely find himself up against sheilded Y-Wings, Z-95 headhunters, the CSA ships, small capital ships. He needed something that would bloody a nose so he could get away. Overly powerful quad lasers would do just that.

I would say Bean is right about the firepower, but the z-95 thing, werent those throw away designs of the x-wing and then adopted by WEG as a valid Sw fighter. I would doubt we will see any Z-95's in the upcoming film. Anyway I'm getting off target here

Z-95's are also used in the books, comics, and videogames.

Master of Ossus wrote:Z-95's are also used in the books, comics, and videogames.

They sure are so whats your point?

The reason for existance of the quad-lasers doesn't affect in the slightest the observed power levels. Congratulations on a fine red herring.

The reason for existance of the quad-lasers doesn't affect in the slightest the observed power levels. Congratulations on a fine red herring.

I disagree, unless of course you think Solo is a complete Fucking moron? If he is going up aginst shielded Fighters, other Smugglers and Small to medium sized Cap-Ships do you think he's not going to be carrying the heavest weaponry he can get his hands on?

Due to AotC-ICS, I doubt anyone would have any problem believing low-kilotons/second power levels for the quad-turrets. But IMHO more evidence is needed if you want to claim many hundreds of kilotons/second.

and what about the power to run those quad guns?

And don't forget, he's got to have additional power for:

-- the upgraded shields (military-grade, definitely more powerful than what a stock YT-1300 would have)
-- the upgraded sensors (the big sensor dish isn't standard for the YT-1300, it's a military-grade suite) [may not be that big of a power draw, but it's more than a standard suite would be, which means you cut into your stock power reserves unless you upgrade the power system)
-- the upgraded engine (no way a stock YT-1300 is as fast as the Falcon)

All within the YT-1300 frame, without taking out the cargo space (kind of hard to be a successful smuggler if you don't have the cargo space).

It might be possible to fit in an upgraded power source to take care of all of that... but you'll probably run into a size limitation on the power source.

Another thing to remember: in the novels, where the quads were used against shielded craft, it took more than a burst or 2 from a quad to take down the shields, let alone burn through the hull and destroy the fighters. Solo wasn't getting one-shot kills like he did with the TIE's, but we can still use the TIE as a lower limit value for the quad guns.

All within the YT-1300 frame, without taking out the cargo space (kind of hard to be a successful smuggler if you don't have the cargo space).

Not a problem acutal as its allread in one of the Han Solo books that he did a second cargo hold to make room for everything that most of the frieghters normaly carry

More accurately he installed several small sensor shielded cargo bays below the floor

The MF appears to be designed to 'push' cargo pods - with the twin mandibles being load-bearing pylons to grip the pods, and the cockpit being off-set from the centerline so the pilot can see past the bulk of the cargo pod. It also explains why the Falcon is so over-powered, even before any modifications, as it is probably designed to transport several times it's own mass in the form of cargo.
The point being that providing a large cargo volume inside the MF was probably never a major design requirement.

Are there any examples of Han Solo firing at any capital ships in a Star Wars movie, book, etc?

Commander LeoRo wrote:Are there any examples of Han Solo firing at any capital ships in a Star Wars movie, book, etc?

Yes...

Han Solo's Revenge: fires on the pirates' command ship. Doesn't have the firepower to really damage them, he's just trying to distract them while he tries to break their tractor lock. Technically, though, it wasn't a capital ship, as an old Bulk Cruiser (possibly the precursor to a VSD) shows up and is supposed to be as comparable to the pirate ship as the pirate ship is to the MF.

Can't remember offhand out of the later EU books, but that gives us an idea right there that the quad guns perhaps aren't that spectacular.

Sidenote: I'm pretty sure the Foster-written EU novels never mention the MF having any concussion missile launchers, so there's a good chance they were added either after ANH or TESB, possibly specifically for the DS2 battle.

Back to the MF's cargo space...

It's possible that the nose was designed to carry cargo pods (something done in the XWA game, but that's not canon). However, the shielded holds were apparantly in addition to the main cargo hold (referrenced in the EU books). That points to the YT-1300 being designed primarily towards having internal cargo. However, I think we're perhaps offbase as to the secondaries being shielded. If they had been, then Han wouldn't have needed to worry about dumping his Kessel spice load and pissing Jabba off, since he could have hidden the spice in the shielded holds. Either spice is extremely hard to shield from sensors (possible, but I don't think the EU books say anything about that)... or the secondary holds aren't shielded.

More importantly, however, is the location of the secondary holds. With a cargo hold, you want to be sure you can dump the cargo quickly should something hazardous occur... like, say, your cargo's about to explode. I'm not so sure those secondary holds would have been easy to jettison cargo with... and I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable hiding in them when some bored stormie might punch the jettison button in the cockpit just for laughs. Besides, I would think it'd be harder to hide the outer jettison hatches for a cargo hold than it would to hide the plate covering the hold's entrance from visual inspection.

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business. The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

greenmm wrote: Han Solo's Revenge: fires on the pirates' command ship. Doesn't have the firepower to really damage them, he's just trying to distract them while he tries to break their tractor lock. Technically, though, it wasn't a capital ship, as an old Bulk Cruiser (possibly the precursor to a VSD) shows up and is supposed to be as comparable to the pirate ship as the pirate ship is to the MF.

The ship Han fired upon in that part of the book is described as "easily three times the MF's size" so it wasn't a capital ship. The ship that later arrived was a VSD ("destroyer of the old Victory-class").

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business. The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

Th e MF depends on the forward hold for money-making, that's because Han tends to carry small, highly-valuable cargo such as spice and slaves. However, that doesn't mean that most YT-1300s [or, more correctly: Selyana-class Correllian Freighters] do. That cargo hold is pathetically small otherwise.
Aaron

If they had been, then Han wouldn't have needed to worry about dumping his Kessel spice load and pissing Jabba off, since he could have hidden the spice in the shielded holds. Either spice is extremely hard to shield from sensors (possible, but I don't think the EU books say anything about that)... or the secondary holds aren't shielded.

There are six lockers all-togther and togther they have 20% the volume as Solo's Main Hold


Simply put Solo had more Spice than shielded holds

Mr Bean wrote:

The reason for existance of the quad-lasers doesn't affect in the slightest the observed power levels. Congratulations on a fine red herring.

I disagree, unless of course you think Solo is a complete Fucking moron? If he is going up aginst shielded Fighters, other Smugglers and Small to medium sized Cap-Ships do you think he's not going to be carrying the heavest weaponry he can get his hands on?

I see you chose not to listen. You are taking Solo's reasons for the installation of weaponry on the Falcon, and using this you are overriding what we've actually seen these weapons do: blow TIEs into pieces, just like what fighter weapons do that are rated under 10KT.

We have canon firepower evidence, and you're throwing it to the wind because Solo ought to have powerful guns.

What is this all about? According to the AOTC: ICS, small laser cannons range in power from 1kt on fighters to 8kt quad lasers on capital ships. Therefore, the Falcon's quad laser firepower probably ranges from 4-8KT per QL in firepower. Of course, the Acclamator's laser cannons have 6MT firepower, but this was presumably a capital-scale laser cannon.

Mr Bean wrote:

If they had been, then Han wouldn't have needed to worry about dumping his Kessel spice load and pissing Jabba off, since he could have hidden the spice in the shielded holds. Either spice is extremely hard to shield from sensors (possible, but I don't think the EU books say anything about that)... or the secondary holds aren't shielded.

There are six lockers all-togther and togther they have 20% the volume as Solo's Main Hold


Simply put Solo had more Spice than shielded holds

Not quite. It doesn't say that Jabba was mad at Han for dumping part of his load of spice. He was mad for dumping his cargo of spice. Technically, that could be subject to interpretation either way, but it makes more sense to assume that he dumped his entire load.

Aaron2 wrote:

greenmm wrote: Han Solo's Revenge: fires on the pirates' command ship. Doesn't have the firepower to really damage them, he's just trying to distract them while he tries to break their tractor lock. Technically, though, it wasn't a capital ship, as an old Bulk Cruiser (possibly the precursor to a VSD) shows up and is supposed to be as comparable to the pirate ship as the pirate ship is to the MF.

The ship Han fired upon in that part of the book is described as "easily three times the MF's size" so it wasn't a capital ship. The ship that later arrived was a VSD ("destroyer of the old Victory-class").

3 times volume, 3 times length, or 3 times mass?

Considering that it carries a number of pinnaces, which are appreciably larger than the fighters Solo's used to dealing with, 3 times the length is probably more likely. That would put it at least at 100-105 m in length, potentially up to 140m max.

That may not seem like much, but it depends on the definition of a "capital" ship. It could be based on the weaponry carried -- ie. LTL, MTL, or HTL mounts. Is an LTL considered a capital ship weapon? If so, the pirate ship probably mounted a few of them in addition to any anti-fighter turrets.

OTOH, it could be purely based on size. If so, then the pirate ship was most definitely not a capital ship, as it would have been less than half the length of a Neutron-B Frigate. However... if we go by that definition, then the MF has no chance against capital ships normally, because Solo knew he didn't have the firepower to take on the pirates' mother ship with the MF, yet the pirates were ever more outclassed by the VSD than Solo was by the pirates.

In either case, it's starting to look like a semi-solid case for the MF not having capital-grade weapons.

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business. The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

Th e MF depends on the forward hold for money-making, that's because Han tends to carry small, highly-valuable cargo such as spice and slaves. However, that doesn't mean that most YT-1300s [or, more correctly: Selyana-class Correllian Freighters] do. That cargo hold is pathetically small otherwise.
Aaron

Perhaps... but if a standard YT-1300 doesn't have that hold, what did Han have to remove to put it in? And if a standard YT-1300 doesn't rely on an internal cargo hold, why design it so that you have to hook on to cargo with the mandibles? Why not design it so that the YT-1300 locks its ventral hull onto the cargo modules? Wouldn't it be more likely that a YT-1300 was designed from the start to be a light cargo freighter that uses its internal cargo hold for the majority of cargos? After all, it's supposed to be a tramp freighter, and modern tramp freighters are normally nowhere near the size of the commercial freighters or military cargo transports, let alone the giant supertankers used for carrying oil.

The Corporate Sector Sourcebook calls the pirate ship "an old Ulig Abaha Dimel attack ship," with a length of 95 meters.

greenmm wrote:...if a standard YT-1300 doesn't rely on an internal cargo hold, why design it so that you have to hook on to cargo with the mandibles? Why not design it so that the YT-1300 locks its ventral hull onto the cargo modules?

Hooking large cargo modules onto the ventral hull is a very bad idea due to the resulting off-axis thrust problems.

greenmm wrote: Wouldn't it be more likely that a YT-1300 was designed from the start to be a light cargo freighter that uses its internal cargo hold for the majority of cargos? After all, it's supposed to be a tramp freighter, and modern tramp freighters are normally nowhere near the size of the commercial freighters or military cargo transports, let alone the giant supertankers used for carrying oil.

The common feature of ALL cargo-carrying vessels that rely on internal cargo holds, whether tramp or super-tankers, is that the cargo hold(s) takes up a significant fraction of the internal volume not required for machinary and fuel. This is not the case with the YT1300 which has only one rather small forward hold, and 'maybe' a couple of even smaller ones in other parts of the ship. If the YT1300 has designed to carry it's payload in an internal bay I would expect almost the entire forward half of the main disk to be cargo bay, rather than just a small section of it.

That was my point, actually, that the MF's hold is probably smaller than a stock YT-1300's hold due to Solo's upgrades (military-grade shielding, engine, weapons, probably power system as well)...

I have always assumed that the Falcon's main corridors are original features of the ship, and not something that Solo has added. Do you disagree?
If the corridors are original features, then it doesn't leave any room for a larger internal cargo volume.