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Well,who here really brought into the EU "moisture farmers make money by selling water" crap?For me,ever since I watched SW the movie,this struck me as nonsense.Here's why.


1.We are told that moisture farmers use vapourators to drain the water from the atmosphere and store it in huge tanks underground.If so,please explain this.

-Why are there no moisture farmers in the Jundland wastes,where a morning mist arises?This promises much higher profit as you get more water there.

-Why is it in the ANH novelisation,Luke states that he won't see a cloud unless he fixes the vapourator?Clouds seem to be an awful ineffective way of collecting water.

2.We are told the crops are for consumption and barter,farmers make their cash through the sale of water.

-Where are the transports for the water?We never,ever see any form of transportation for the water.No huge tanker and no underground pipes.Can a farmer family afford the kind of infrastructure for advanced transports,or a huge underlying network of pipes?

-Why is it that a "season" is so important for Owen Lars?Can water only be collected anually?

-Why is it that Owen says that he will make enough money from this season crops to hire more hands,instead of saying he will make enough money from selling water?

3.Lastly,why is labour so important?Collecting water isn't a labour intensive job.Growing crops is.Technical aid may be important for maintaining the water vapourators,but why is it that Lars states in the novel that human labour is better than droids?

1: Owen may have sold more than water, hence he needs help with the crops.

2: If there are underground pipes, are we going to see them?

Phyre wrote:1: Owen may have sold more than water, hence he needs help with the crops.

2: If there are underground pipes, are we going to see them?

This is not about Owen Lars selling both crops and water.This is about the EU saying moisture farmers make their living via selling water.The evidence in the canon,and indeed,the situation as described on Tatooine lends more towards the argument that moisture farmers make their living via selling crops,not via selling water.

As for underground pipes,again,let me ask the following questions.When will you ever see a farmer family have the kinda resources to install a vast,underground piping network?

This is a galaxy in which the trillion,gazillion populace of Coruscant surivived days without imports of water on a planet wide scale.(Dark Force rising,Thrawn siege to Coruscant via asteroids).Water recycling technology must be extremely advanced and cost effective.Even if we ignore that,the fact that according to Decipher,there are also water sellers who sell water via importing ice from nearby moons and planets.Can you honestly believe that the small-time manufacturing capability of Owen Lars homestead can compete against foreign imports?

Depends, who sells the cheaper water.... And it never says he doesn't sell any of his crops. Just his main thing is water. I just thought about something, if they have underground storage tanks, won't they need help loading and transporting it to the market? Hence the help.

Well, I dunno about the moisture farmers, but people DO sell water in the SW universe. in Darksaber there was a water mining quarry that mined a comet every 100 years or so...

Mitth-raw-nuruodo wrote:Well, I dunno about the moisture farmers, but people DO sell water in the SW universe. in Darksaber there was a water mining quarry that mined a comet every 100 years or so...

a) It was Anderson who wrote that.

b) And I believe it was some extravagant super-expensive pure bottled water for needlessly self-endulgent wanks.

PainRack wrote:Can you honestly believe that the small-time manufacturing capability of Owen Lars homestead can compete against foreign imports?

In the tiny local economy of homesteads, little waystations, and prospectors, yeah. Squeezing water from recycling and the air is probably cheaper for them than foriegn imports and doesn't require going to a major settlement.

We're talking about a planet so useless over history its been periodically forgotten (IIRC).

Other than that I just see another patented PainRack attack on the EU.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:In the tiny local economy of homesteads, little waystations, and prospectors, yeah. Squeezing water from recycling and the air is probably cheaper for them than foriegn imports and doesn't require going to a major settlement.

Well, given the extraordinarily small numbers of water per vaporator one can get a day, I don't know about that. From the EGTW&T:

"On Tatooine, vaporators (of an unknown number, apparently) set 250 meters apart can be expected to gather 1.5 liters a day."

How can one honestly expect to turn a reasonable profit selling 1.5 liters of water a day? Would it not be cheaper to hire some asshole to fly to a stream on a nearby planet and fill up his tanks with that, go back to Tatooine, and let the farmers sell that back to the people at a much larger price (if water is so valuable on Tatooine, anyways).

We're talking about a planet so useless over history its been periodically forgotten (IIRC).

I don't think so. Tatooine is close enough to important hyperlanes that it is habited at all; in fact it has a reasonable polulation (look at Mos Eisley and Espa) for such a useless little dustball of a planet.

On Tattooine, or any desert water is a premium. I think that Lars having a Hydroponics Facility lends us to beleive that they have to grow crops as well. The Vegtables would give the family alot of products to sell on the market besides water. A hydroponic style farm uses very little water to work so it would not tax their water supplies much for the profit it offers.

Eh, I'm tempted to say EGTW&T is probably wrong. Personally, I don't like Essential Guides much, they don't apply any objective analysis or placing of certain sources above others.

The original Essential Guide to Characters had several errors (one of the most idiotic was one in Thrawn's bio claiming he was assaulting Bilbringi in The Last Command for the Dreadnought he didn't nab in Dark Force Rising, so I'm tempted to say this source is barely researched, and pays way too much attention to shit from Glove of Darth Vader).

Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels is basically a verbatim copy of West End Games' mistakes. Hopelessly minimalist, no research from canon, et cetera.

Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology has utterly moronic range values for one.

Essential Guide to Droids hasn't had any noticable problems to me, but I haven't really used it much.

Essential Guide to Planets and Moons was a fair source, but it neglected some key systems I thought needed more attention.

Essential Guide to Alien Species perpetuated the Ewok delusion, and that's the only thing that comes to mind.

New Essential Guide to Characters was actually quite good, though I would've prefered a more explicit connection from Tarkin and Sienar with the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid to Dooku and the Geonosians in AOTC with the budding Death Star.

But that's just my opinion, and take it as you may, and don't take it too seriously or as gospel.

PainRack wrote:1.We are told that moisture farmers use vapourators to drain the water from the atmosphere and store it in huge tanks underground.If so,please explain this.

You just described how the process works. What's to explain?

-Why are there no moisture farmers in the Jundland wastes,where a morning mist arises?This promises much higher profit as you get more water there.

Probably because it's the Jundland Wastes, as in the Tatooine equivalent of a wilderness. It's probably too dangerous to harvest moisture due to the risks of Tusken Raider or Krayt Dragon attacks. Besides, if there are morning mists in the JW, there might be morning dew elsewhere on the planet.

There's also the possibility that there are moisture farmers in the JW area, but we just didn't see them in the small locations that were shown in the films. The locations that we see on Tatooine are inside an area of only 900-1800 KM sq., and out of that total we only actually see a a few select key locations.

-Why is it in the ANH novelisation,Luke states that he won't see a cloud unless he fixes the vapourator?Clouds seem to be an awful ineffective way of collecting water.

Can you provide an exact (in context, as in the entire passage) quote? You provide only a second party level paraphrase, which reads like some sort of nonsense, since it sounds like the appearence of a cloud depends on whether the vaporator can be fixed.

2.We are told the crops are for consumption and barter,farmers make their cash through the sale of water.

-Where are the transports for the water?We never,ever see any form of transportation for the water.No huge tanker and no underground pipes.

We don't see any form of transportation for the water because there are no scenes of them transporting water in the films. Water collection on Tatooine is probably based on a regular shedule (most likely influenced by the season harvests), where either the farmers take the water to cities/buyers to sell or buyers come to them and transport it themselves.

As for not being able to see underground pipes: you can't see them because they're UNDERGROUND, you doorknob. While the vaporators and collection equipment that are closer to the homestead would probably use underground pipes leading to storage tanks, equipment that is further away might have collecting basins or smaller underground tanks of their own. The farmers would then go to the vaporators and collect the water themselves, then take it back and put it in the larger tanks.

Can a farmer family afford the kind of infrastructure for advanced transports,or a huge underlying network of pipes?

First of all, we have no evidence that the underground pipeline network has to extend to all vaporators (see comment above).

Second, what makes you assume that the harvesting and storage equipment is expensive in the first place? Even if it wasn't, we also don't have the evidence that all the equipment was purchased and set up by the Lars all at once? The Lars owned the homestead for roughly 30 years at least, and that's not counting the possibility of there being previous owners. For all we know, the system could have been installed as a whole or gradually built-up and expanded over decades, or even centuries.

-Why is it that a "season" is so important for Owen Lars?Can water only be collected anually?

What makes you assume that? Seasons on Tatooine could mark annual variations in humidity, or they could just be representative of the calander system used, and refer to the harvest cycle.

Besides, Owen said that harvest was when he needed Luke the most. Since they would be able and seem to collect water from their vaporators throughout the year, "harvest" probably refers not when they collect water, but to when they get it ready for sale.

-Why is it that Owen says that he will make enough money from this season crops to hire more hands,instead of saying he will make enough money from selling water?

He doesn't. He says "This year we'll make enough on the harvest that I'll be able to hire some more hands." No mention of crops: your nitpicking isn't even accurate.

3.Lastly,why is labour so important?Collecting water isn't a labour intensive job.Growing crops is.

See above statement refering to hiring hands, not "labour". Without Luke, it's just two old people and a handful of maintainence droids. He might have intended on hiring one or two people to do various tasks.

Technical aid may be important for maintaining the water vapourators,but why is it that Lars states in the novel that human labour is better than droids?

Because humans don't break down from the elements as easy as droids do, and they're more versatile.

Your questions and interpretations reek of nitpicking, baseless assumptions, false dilemmas, and false conclusions.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: New Essential Guide to Characters was actually quite good, though I would've prefered a more explicit connection from Tarkin and Sienar with the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid to Dooku and the Geonosians in AOTC with the budding Death Star.

It also claims Senator Palpy and Darth Sidious as 2 different people. Maybe I'm just being stupid, but aren't they one and the same?

Mitth-raw-nuruodo wrote:It also claims Senator Palpy and Darth Sidious as 2 different people. Maybe I'm just being stupid, but aren't they one and the same?

It doesn't claim that they're two different people (they aren't), it just doesn't make the connection, and uses a bizzare form of measurement ot throw you off:

Darth Sidious is 1.78 meters tall.
Palpatine is 1.73 (in Jedi) meters tall.

WTF is JEDI meters exactly? Some BS they invented to throw us off. Should've just put "unknown" for Sidious IMO.

That refers to how tall he is in Return of the Jedi, not that it's in "Jedi metres"...

Baka.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Mitth-raw-nuruodo wrote:It also claims Senator Palpy and Darth Sidious as 2 different people. Maybe I'm just being stupid, but aren't they one and the same?

It doesn't claim that they're two different people (they aren't), it just doesn't make the connection, and uses a bizzare form of measurement ot throw you off:

Darth Sidious is 1.78 meters tall.
Palpatine is 1.73 (in Jedi) meters tall.

WTF is JEDI meters exactly? Some BS they invented to throw us off. Should've just put "unknown" for Sidious IMO.

Or do they mean he is this tall in Return of The Jedi!

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

That refers to how tall he is in Return of the Jedi, not that it's in "Jedi metres"...

Baka.

They don't make references to the movies inside the bios (only in the bibliography). This would be the first and only time they do in the book; I might also add that in the book "Jedi" isn't italisized, I did that to put emphasis.

But *shrugs* perhaps.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

That refers to how tall he is in Return of the Jedi, not that it's in "Jedi metres"...

Baka.

They don't make references to the movies inside the bios (only in the bibliography). This would be the first and only time they do in the book; I might also add that in the book "Jedi" isn't italisized, I did that to put emphasis.

But *shrugs* perhaps.

This may be because Palpitine is the only character to shrink in size. How do they handle Anakin and Vader(I need to get me this book one of these days but I'm broke!)

Isolder74 wrote: How do they handle Anakin and Vader(I need to get me this book one of these days but I'm broke!)

It lists him as one person, and the picture is the AotC version of him. I can't tell you any more than that, because the book, like everything else SW I own, is at my other house. (no computer there, I need to have SOME entertainment ya know!)

Isolder74 wrote:This may be because Palpitine is the only character to shrink in size. How do they handle Anakin and Vader(I need to get me this book one of these days but I'm broke!)

Remember, the Dark Side was killing him, which is why he made all the clones of himself. Anyway, old age makes people shrink.

As the title state, could it be that the Senator is a clone, and the Sith lord is just waiting for his next change of body.

omegaLancer wrote:As the title state, could it be that the Senator is a clone, and the Sith lord is just waiting for his next change of body.

IIRC, Palpy started the cloning project 10 BBY. Thats ~ 10 years before Ep III.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Probably because it's the Jundland Wastes, as in the Tatooine equivalent of a wilderness. It's probably too dangerous to harvest moisture due to the risks of Tusken Raider or Krayt Dragon attacks. Besides, if there are morning mists in the JW, there might be morning dew elsewhere on the planet.

There's also the possibility that there are moisture farmers in the JW area, but we just didn't see them in the small locations that were shown in the films. The locations that we see on Tatooine are inside an area of only 900-1800 KM sq., and out of that total we only actually see a a few select key locations.

1.The Technical journal and the like states that there are no moisture farmers in that region.

2.Yet,living in the Dune sea or any other region where they are subjected to Tusken raids(AOTC) and 2 meter long womp rats isn't?Furthermore,remember,this was considered a geological feature of the Jundland wastes,thus,indicating this isn't present in the Dune sea or any other region on Tatooine.

Remember,Obi-wan Kenobi lives in/near the Jundland Wastes and the community doesn't find his continued surivival to be an amazing event.

Can you provide an exact (in context, as in the entire passage) quote? You provide only a second party level paraphrase, which reads like some sort of nonsense, since it sounds like the appearence of a cloud depends on whether the vaporator can be fixed.

"Luke gazed at it sadly,then he inclined his head to study the sky.Still no sign of a cloud,and he knew there never would be unless he got that vaporator working.He was about to try once again when a small,intense gleam of light caught his eye."

We don't see any form of transportation for the water because there are no scenes of them transporting water in the films. Water collection on Tatooine is probably based on a regular shedule (most likely influenced by the season harvests), where either the farmers take the water to cities/buyers to sell or buyers come to them and transport it themselves.

As for not being able to see underground pipes: you can't see them because they're UNDERGROUND, you doorknob. While the vaporators and collection equipment that are closer to the homestead would probably use underground pipes leading to storage tanks, equipment that is further away might have collecting basins or smaller underground tanks of their own. The farmers would then go to the vaporators and collect the water themselves, then take it back and put it in the larger tanks.

1.Where are the haulers?We do see the garage on Lars homestead.

First of all, we have no evidence that the underground pipeline network has to extend to all vaporators (see comment above).

[
The sentence meaning was in regards to transportation.We don't see any haulers or large trucks in the Lars homestead,so,we assume they transport it through pipes to their buyers.Yet,its impossible for a family to afford that kind of infrastructure.

Again,how do they transport it?We don't see the vehicles,we don't see anything.We don't see drums or portable tanks.Nothing to indicate the trappings of water collection and sale.

Second, what makes you assume that the harvesting and storage equipment is expensive in the first place? Even if it wasn't, we also don't have the evidence that all the equipment was purchased and set up by the Lars all at once? The Lars owned the homestead for roughly 30 years at least, and that's not counting the possibility of there being previous owners. For all we know, the system could have been installed as a whole or gradually built-up and expanded over decades, or even centuries.

I was talking about the "transportation" infrastructure.God damn it,read!You have to get water to the market.How do they do it?We don't see any equipment for transport of water at all.We do however,see farming equipment.

What makes you assume that? Seasons on Tatooine could mark annual variations in humidity, or they could just be representative of the calander system used, and refer to the harvest cycle.

Annual variations in humidity on a desert planet,without seas?You must be joking.

Furthermore,in that case,explain again why the importance of the harvest season and the continued fixation on crops as to Luke importance on the farm?And farming?

Look at the quotes.

-"The mealtime discussions between her husband and Luke had grown steadily more acrimonious as the boy's restlessness pulled him in directions other than farming.Directions for which Owen,a stolid man of the soil if there ever was one,had absolutely no sympathy."

-"Remember,the last of our savings is tied up in those two.Wouldn't even have bought them if it wasn't so near harvest."

-"In the morning,I want you have them working with the irrigation units up on the south ridge."

-""I was thinking about our agreement about me staying on for another season."

-"You mean,you want to transmit the application next year-after the harvest."

-"Listen,'his uncle told him,'for the first time we've got a chance for a real fortune.We'll make enough to hire some extra hands for next time.Not droids-people.Then you can go to the Academy.'he fumbled over words,unaccustomed to pleading."I need you here,Luke.You understand that,don't you?'
'It's another year,'his nephew objected sullenly.'Another year'

[q]Besides, Owen said that harvest was when he needed Luke the most. Since they would be able and seem to collect water from their vaporators throughout the year, "harvest" probably refers not when they collect water, but to when they get it ready for sale.[/q]
Then what about "man of the soil"?And there is no logical motive for sale of water to take place annually.The towns couldn't possibly surivive on that kind of shipment.Monthly,yes.Yearly?

Assuming "harvest" to be the collection and sale of water is logical.On an annual basis is not.No kind of bureacury will organise collection of a vital neccesity like water on an annual basis,especially one that is used up extremely fast and generated on a daily basis,as oppposed to crops which have a growing season.

Last but not least,look at what the droids are used for.They're not used for the collection and sale of water.They're used for the "irrigation" units.Farming work.Yet,the last of Owen savings is tied up in them and he wouldn't even have purchased them if it wasn't so close to "harvest".And he implied they have a chance to make a "fortune".A fortune from presumably the harvest.Does this suggest the money comes from crops,or from water?

Phyre wrote:Depends, who sells the cheaper water.... And it never says he doesn't sell any of his crops. Just his main thing is water. I just thought about something, if they have underground storage tanks, won't they need help loading and transporting it to the market? Hence the help.

The Technical Journel,as well as countless EU material states that the crops are for their own consumption.Not for sale.

And the droids aren't used for collecting transporting water.They're used for the irrigration units.

You're hopeless. I refuse to respond to your vomitous textual nitpicking garbage and illogical, misinterpretational conclusions. Mainly because I have no time to respond to such a Brownie moron.

And use spaces with your punctuation, for Christ's sake...

PainRack wrote:The sentence meaning was in regards to transportation.We don't see any haulers or large trucks in the Lars homestead,so,we assume they transport it through pipes to their buyers.Yet,its impossible for a family to afford that kind of infrastructure.

Again,how do they transport it?We don't see the vehicles,we don't see anything.We don't see drums or portable tanks.Nothing to indicate the trappings of water collection and sale.

Gee golly whiz everyone, how do you transport water? You put it in tanks, strap it on to your speeder, and drive it to the nearest town, that's how. Did it really require that much thought?

Here, I'll even get you a quote from the EpII ICS, about Owen's speeder bike:

"Originally a racing vehicle, he immediately saw its durable, practical use. Townsfolk might scoff at the sight of a onetime sports vehicle hauling water trailers or vermin traps..." -p.15

Just replace the bike with the Lars' family landspeeder; still works out.