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During Thrawn's campaign why was he never contact by the clone-emperor or any of the inner-core? As a Grand Admiral, was Thrawn aware of those vast and powerful remnants that existed in Byss and the surrounding systems? What would have happened if Thrawn had managed to link up with those forces? Would the New Republic really have stood a chance without their damn Rebel/Force luck?

I dunno, did the inner core and cloned emperor see Thrawn then as a threat or potential rival for the throne? I'm not sure if I find this likely otherwise the Emperor would have devised a scheme a long time ago to keep Thrawn down or eliminated. If anything, Thrawn desperately wanted something akin to power and force the old Empire could provide as hinted, he was preparing for some big bad baddies.

Illuminatus would know this FAR better than I but he recently stated in another thread that Thrawn's campaign was SUPPOSED to happen AFTER Dark Empire but the Thrawn trilogy came out first and Zahn refused to adjust his timeline to take Dark Empire into account.

Stravo is correct.

Dark Empire was conceptualized to take place when the X-Wing novels do now. Notice the Rebels are still known as the Rebel Alliance, and that Coruscant was back in Imperial hands. It was supposed to have always been in Imperial hands and just got caught up in the sudden civil war.

Zahn refused to accomodate Vietch and refused to work with him. Therefore the Thrawn Trilogy was shoe-horned into a spot BEFORE Dark Empire, which caused several issues.

As for the "in-universe" set of occurances, they are as follows:

From studying Dark Side and Sith secrets and by torturing Jedi Masters and from the Holocron, Palpatine, who was dying, learned the art of Life Transfer. This was the same technique invoked haphazardly by the Jedi Knight Callista to imprison her consciousness in the Eye of Palpatine's computer during the rise of the Empire and used by Sith Lord Exar Kun to seal his consciousness in his temple on Yavin 4. The ancient Sith Lords bound their spirits to their tombs this way.

Palpatine had different plans. Using knowledge gained from military cloning projects since the Clone Wars, his established a cloning facility at his private retreat on Byss in the Deep Core, and at the Imperial Palace on Coruscant. He used these facilities to grow clones of himself, and shortly before the Battle of Yavin, Palpatine left his dying body and inhabited a clone. The clones were unnatural and a step removed from the protection of the Force--they decayed far more rapidly than his original body did.

Palpatine was destroyed at Endor by Lord Vader, and cut-off from his clones at Byss. Even Palpatine didn't have the power to reach across the galaxy. Any clones hidden in the Death Star were lost when the hypermatter core turned the battlestation into plasma.

Palpatine instead transfered his consciousness into his Hand, a Dark Jedi known as Jeng Droga on a nearby Rimworld. Palpatine was imprisioned within Droga for a year before Grand Vizier Pestage found him and brought him to Byss where Palpatine reinhabited one of his clones.

Palpatine sent the next five years regaining his strength. By the time he'd reestablished himself in a fresh clone, his Empire was already tearing itself apart in civil warfare, warlordism, and illegitimacy. The terrorist Rebellion had already swept across the Mid and Outer Rims to form a New Republic. Rather than unveil himself, Palpatine bided his time and recovered from the stress of his defeat and subsequent imprisionment within Droga's mind (not to mention that the Force had been balanced by the Chosen One's sacrifice at Endor--Palpatine would never reach that power with the Dark Side again).

Palpatine and his agents sowed confusion and erroneous orders amongst the ranks of the Starfleet. As many armadas were recalled Coreward from the onslaught of warlords, usurpers, or the New Republic, many fleets became lost--they were recalled to the Deep Core, where their commanders either swear fealty back to their Emperor or died. The Black Sword Command was only one lost fleet--many others found their way to the Deep Core.

Thrawn returned, and took control of what was left of the Empire beyond the Deep Core. The Dark Empire Sourcebook suggests Palpatine was dissappointed in Thrawn for his choice. Therefore I don't think he was totally ignorant. Perhaps he knew of the Deep Core safehouses, bases, and reserves, but the hyperroutes to them were highly guarded secrets.

Without knowing reliable methods of entry, with the most heavily defended New Republic worlds between him and it, and with many Darksiders and Palpatine-loving-fanatics that weren't likely to want to serve him or share, he probably considered it not worth worrying about until the Republic was on the run and he was secure in the outside galaxy. Thrawn expressed no hint that Palpatine was alive, so it is probably likely his discounted the possibility even knowing of Palpatine's hidden clone facility and citadel there, and that was what Palpatine was disappointed in him for. That he failed to have faith in his Emperor.

Obviously, had Thrawn achieved domination over the outside galaxy and with the majority of the galaxy behind him as absolute dictator, it is not unimaginable he would've declared the Deep Core holdouts to be rife with traitors and cowards who didn't fight beside their loyal brethren in the fight against the Rebellion, and accuse them of trying to usurp the Empire with a fraudulent and offensive impersonator. Regardless of Palpatine's strength in the Deep Core, Thrawn in control of most of the galaxy could probably have crushed Palpatine and his holdouts. Thrawn appears to have considered his goals personally above all others. It is not difficult to see why Palpatine therefore engineered Ruhk's assassination of Thrawn, preventing him from breaking the New Republic and disrupting the Imperial leadership such that his reclamation of the throne would be smooth.

Trytostaydead wrote:I dunno, did the inner core and cloned emperor see Thrawn then as a threat or potential rival for the throne? I'm not sure if I find this likely otherwise the Emperor would have devised a scheme a long time ago to keep Thrawn down or eliminated. If anything, Thrawn desperately wanted something akin to power and force the old Empire could provide as hinted, he was preparing for some big bad baddies.

Anything the House Phalanx could fight off or even confront is hardly a threat to the galaxy proper.

The way i see it, there are two possibilities:

Thrawn knew about the cloned emperor and his holdings in the deep core and was perhaps even following his orders (his knowledge of the Mount Tansiss-depot, his return only five years after Endor and while at the beginning he was simply doing his duty (in HttE he says he only wants to restore order and the empire) at the time of TLC he had gotten a taste and wanted the power for himself ("I´m the empire now. Not some long deceased emperor - upps, that was already in DFR), what caused Palpatine to engineer his downfall.

Second possibility is, he had no knowledge about what was going on in the deep core.

Besides that DarkEmpire sucked. I wouldn´t cry a tear, if someday somebody at LFL declares it unofficial.

About the Chiss:

If only one promille of their entire population is serving as military a single housephalanx out of twenty-nine has 172 MILLION men and women.

Enough to crew 3,831 ISDs including troops.

My guess is, they have been intentionally downsized so there is no easy way out in the NJO with the Chiss as saviors.

FTeik wrote:
Besides that DarkEmpire sucked. I wouldn´t cry a tear, if someday somebody at LFL declares it unofficial.

You are not alone.

FTeik wrote:*snip*

Crying Mittyphiles? What?

I'm glad. I always thought it was cheap and a poor decision to make Thrawn from a villian, which he was good at, into some antihero, and pull massive phantom threats without any evidence and massive phantom fleets with no substanciation out of their ass.

Besides, it is canonical. Too bad.

Besides that DarkEmpire sucked. I wouldn´t cry a tear, if someday somebody at LFL declares it unofficial.

WTF!?
Dark Empire I+II were one of the BEST things I ever read. I retched to the end because of the Zahn novels, but Dark Empire was simply cool!

Thrawn was too loyal to ever go against the Emperor, so I doubt that he would've try to take him out.

My theory is is that he was clearing the way for the Emperor, knowing of Byss and the secret weapons there. Thrawn was gathering forces and deciving the Republic into thinking that he was acting alone. He did have his clone made and might have known what was coming. The Emperor amy have contaced him and given him precise orders on what to do. I wouldn't put it above the Emperor to run such an alborate scheme.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Rather than unveil himself, Palpatine bided his time and recovered from the stress of his defeat and subsequent imprisionment within Droga's mind (not to mention that the Force had been balanced by the Chosen One's sacrifice at Endor--Palpatine would never reach that power with the Dark Side again).

What?
Is that explicitly said in official material or is that your interpreptation?
If anything, the Emperor seemed stronger in Dark Empire from what I've gathered.

Personally I don't really believe this force-balancing issue has any real effect on a force-user. the force is so utterly vast and powerfull that nomatter the balance, there will be so much power either way that no single person nomatter how powerfull could use all of it.
As for the movies, I don't think the jedi loosing their power in the force has anything to directly do with balancing, more it was an intentional trick or power designed with those results in mind, to disrupt the jedi's connection to the force.

Crying Mittyphiles? What?

I'm glad. I always thought it was cheap and a poor decision to make Thrawn from a villian, which he was good at, into some antihero, and pull massive phantom threats without any evidence and massive phantom fleets with no substanciation out of their ass.

Besides, it is canonical. Too bad.

Oh yes, i cried (sarcasm). I cried the way i cried after JAT, Darksaber, The eye of Palpatine, Crystal Star and Stackpoles X-wing-novels.

A poor decision to make Thrawn from a villain into some anti-hero?

Oh, please.

At the time of HoT old red eye has been dead for ten years, so the man can´t „defend“ himself and do you really want to blame his followers for viewing (and judging) him through the imperial glasses?

Massive phantom-threats?

How about the Sii-Ruuk, the Nagai and the Toffs? As insignificant those forces seem to be compared to the main galactic civilisation they were able to cause a lot of trouble ( That the creators of said threats have a poor sense of scale is another matter).

To claim something that would cause problems for the Chiss would be no problem to the NR is also questionable.

At the height of the empire such a claim might have been true, but not during the following decade.

The NR has serious trouble against 22 worlds during the Koornacht-Crisis, during the Corellia-Crisis, they have to borrow ships from the Bakurans and in HoT the NR is nearly ripped apart by internal conflict and many of its highest-ranking members admitt, that they are barely able to keep the peace everywhere and that they are only now realizing how much of the empires efforts were spent on keeping all the local conflicts under control.

The disarmament after the peace-treaty wouldn´t have helped either.

I don´t even want to talk about the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong, where it took three years for the NR to get the initiative back. Besides, Admiral Parck and Baron Fel may be loyal followers of Thrawn, but they are also competent officers, who should be able to judge threats more or less accurate.

Massive phantom-fleets without substanciation?

Already in HttE was established, that Thrawn had been fighting and conquering in the UR for most of his life. In HoT we finally see the result of those campeigns. In HoT it is also said, that those forces would ensure the final victory of the empire. Even if not Thrawns followers would have had enough time to build up sizeable forces from the time of HoT to the time of the NJO (especially if there are no „phantom-threats“, that would reduce their forces). And since we are willing to grant the empire massive industrial capabilities (something we also never see „canonized“ in the EU, so do they really exist or are they just wishful thinking on our side?), why not a small part of that hidden in the UR?

Besides, it is canonical, too bad.

Oh yes. Unfortunately yes.

But you know what? HoT came before NJO, so reducing the Chiss or Thrawns private forces is simply pissing on continuity. Its like saying „oh yes, we see a eleven mile long Executor in the movies, but most recent sources measure it at five or eight miles, so that is the correct lenght“. And in the case of HoT and NJO we have no movie to tell us, what is right and what not.

And if you look close enough, NJO has a lot of problems with continuity. In „DarkJourney“ Fel and Thrawn´s housephalanx are still outcasts from Chiss-society and in the ForceHeretics-Trilogy we learn, that Fel and family are residing on Csilla for decades. Somebody able to explain this to me?

The most elegant solution in my eyes for the strenght of Thrawn´s forces in HoT and their almost non-existance in NJO would be, that „phantom-threats and phantom-fleets“ eliminated each other, with the HoT-phalanx barely surviving. The conversation in „DarkJourney“ between Sontir Fel and his son indicates, that the „unknown threats“ were dealt with once and for all.

But even if we accept this solution, there is still the problem of the Chiss being able to mobilize vast forces or not, if we ask ourself, how many of their population serve as military. Considering, that they are somewhat of a totalitarian society, one permille serving as military forces is a very low estimate. It should be obvious, that again the official authors haven´t thought things through to the logical consequence.

WTF!?
Dark Empire I+II were one of the BEST things I ever read. I retched to the end because of the Zahn novels, but Dark Empire was simply cool!

Unfortunately DarkEmpire I and II are some of the best things in SW, if you compare them to works like DarkSaber, JAT, Children of the Jedi, Christal Star. They even have some good points.

However, this doesn´t excuse

-Palpatine returning from the dead again and again and again (making Vaders sacrifice of RotJ pointless),

-the inflationary use of superweapons,

-the short introduction of dozens of large ship-designs, we have never seen again after DE,

-the inflationary presence of the DarkSide. If somehow Han, Luke and Leia would have walked through the kitchen of Palpatines citadel on Byss i´m sure, they would have been forced to fight the refrigirators and toasters, that were „empowered with the dark side of the Force,

- lots and lots of DarkSide-adepts dropping from the trees,

-Luke and Leia talking blisters to my ear with „my child will be a great Jedi“, „the Jedi will rise again“, yadda, yadday, yadda, as if the poor child would have no say in the matter himself

-the whole „Palpatine didn´t run the show, because he was studying the dark arts“ in additional sources. Almost every other source shows us a Palpatine, who was in total control over his underlings and pulling his strings everywhere.

All I see is whining and dismissal of the Dark Empire Sourcebook because you don't like it.

Anything a military composed of 29 worlds without navicomputers or ships larger than a strike cruiser is not going to be threatening the galaxy proper, hell, Stent even agrees. He mocked Mara for being "safe" behind a "ring of starships" in the New Republic. It seems evident in his eyes that while the tiny Chiss colonies are at threat, the New Republic is not.

The Koornacht incident has several problems in it.

Firstly, the Koornacht is a globular cluster if I remember, and thus has millions of stars. It has vastly greater economic and resource capacity. Chiss Space is known only to possess 29 inhabited colonies, or no more than 29 inhabited systems. Compare this to globular cluster with millions of barren stars, and perhaps interesting energy sources like stellar corpses. And perhaps several minor colonies.

On the other hand, all we know is that Chiss Space is one sector, and contains only 29 homeworlds and colonies period. I think Chiss Space is far more sparse than the Koornacht.

And Koornacht never had the ability to assault the New Republic itself; they were a political problem. Of course, Leia also mentions that the New Republic is left to several tens of thousands of members, so much of its territory is left to allies and protectorates, not full members. Not to mention they were still reeling from war.

Corellian Crisis the heavy ships of the fleet were in dock or stuck babysitting the Imperial borders. A lack of ships to spare just means they were stretched thin. Not to mention that there could've been some political concerns that made an expeditionary force by the Bakurans more attractive. And Ackbar DID show up with the fleet, albeit late.

And you know what? Regardless of what you think about continuity--you're wrong.

What do you see, concretely, in Vision of the Future?

We see in terms of fleet resources: small gunboats, based on TIE designs. Nothing else.

Bases; scale of military might: a single fortress made of rock (at least I thought they said obsidion in the book) with a defense system that couldn't knock out a single militarized yacht on a collision course. That speaks poorly for both the kind of turbolasers they could manage to build or pull from their massive Imperial allies, or the power of Chiss weaponry.

Troops: Chiss exiles with handguns.

Military expertise: a deserter and a defector--both of which deserved execution by a firing squad. Baron Fel is a traitor to Palpatine and the Empire. Parck neglected to respond to his Emperor's call (note that all the loyal Imperial and even warlord forces joined the resurgent Palpatine's banner; Parck did not).

Everything else, and I mean everything, was based on Mara's assumption that because part of a fucking map was colored in, and merely because that area was thirty times the size of the Remnant, it ,ust have thirty times the shipyards...?

What kind of logic is that? Not only is the Unknown Regions in the backward and largely empty fringe (verified by common sense astronomic knowledge of galaxies and the star counts within the Unknown Regions and Chiss Space), but its undeveloped, hence Unknown. Why would it possess the military-industrial complex of a far more dense and important and developed part of the galaxy? Especially a part with citizens and an economy? Wouldn't Thrawn have recalled those mapping forces in his campiagn against the Republic? Wouldn't they have been recalled, as all Imperial forces were said to, with Palpatine's re-emurgance?

Evidence suggests there is not much there, and Gamer 5 only verified that. It doesn't make sense for the Unknown Regions to be highly developed, or they wouldn't be ignored and Unknown and in the backwaters.

Somehow I find that more important than Mara's hunch. And as we say, Gamer 5 is canonical.

All I see is whining and dismissal of the Dark Empire Sourcebook because you don't like it.

My apologizes, that i don´t like the idea of dozens of different warships showing up and never be seen again.

Forgive me for not liking World-Devastators, Eclipse-Class-Superstardestroyers, Galaxy-Guns, Shadow-Droids, Imperial Sentinels,
Sovereign-Protectors (as if the royal guard wouldn´t have been enough), Chrysalis-beasts and so on in one single story-arc.

My excuses for not liking Luke Skywalker turning to the dark Side, although he sucessfully resisted this temptation in RotJ.

When else have we ever seen so much darksider(-pussies) in one place (come on, most of them were really laughable).

And in nearly every other source we have, Palpatine is either running the show or manipulating things to his advantage. While being emperor he is the one pulling the strings of his underlings or (as a senator and chancellor) keeping an eye on everthing, that could be of interest to him. I somehow doubt he changed the habits, that allowed him to achive the position he is in.

Besides, with exception of the last issue i didn´t tried to prove the things seen or happening in DarkEmpire to be out of continuity or to be of no consequence for the SW-universe. I only explained, why i don´t like them and why i wouldn´t care, if DE would be declared un-official. But that is a question of taste.

Anything a military composed of 29 worlds without navicomputers or ships larger than a strike cruiser is not going to be threatening the galaxy proper, hell, Stent even agrees. He mocked Mara for being "safe" behind a "ring of starships" in the New Republic. It seems evident in his eyes that while the tiny Chiss colonies are at threat, the New Republic is not.

Why do you value a comment from Stent more, than one of Mara Jade.

Especially if he was only trying to mock her? And what about Grodin Tierce quoting Thrawn himself that „ the hand of Thrawn would ensure the final victory of the empire“? Or that Parck and Fel were convinced, that Mara would join them, as soon as she had seen, whats going on in the unknown regions?

And what are the exact quotes from Gamer 5?

Is this confirmed by the chiss themself or just assumption on the side of the New Republic? Do they use navigational beacons instead of nav-computers because they don´t have the technology or because they want to keep their population and military under control?

According to the AotC:ICS the sector-fleets of Kuat and Corellia were also limited to their sectors by their hyperdrives and the TradeFederation, the office of the Chancellor and the Jedi were the only ones with exact maps of everything. Can´t they do better or is this by design.

As for no ships bigger than a Strike-Cruiser for nearly two decades every warship build by the New Republic was smaller than one mile. Does this mean they don´t have the knowledge to build such ships, that they lack the resources and infrastructure or the political will?

The Koornacht incident has several problems in it.

Firstly, the Koornacht is a globular cluster if I remember, and thus has millions of stars. It has vastly greater economic and resource capacity. Chiss Space is known only to possess 29 inhabited colonies, or no more than 29 inhabited systems. Compare this to globular cluster with millions of barren stars, and perhaps interesting energy sources like stellar corpses. And perhaps several minor colonies.

If i remember correct, there are only several thousand stars. And nothing suggest, that it has vastly greater economic capacity or resources. The Yevethans have only 22 worlds and then there are a few spare populated colonies from outside. No vastly greater economic base. And nothing, that suggest, that those resources are exploited in grand style. If the Koornacht-Cluster would have been such a powerhouse, it would have been more difficult for the imperials to keep it secret or their activities there would have been bigger.

On the other hand, all we know is that Chiss Space is one sector, and contains only 29 homeworlds and colonies period. I think Chiss Space is far more sparse than the Koornacht.

One homeworld and twenty-nine colonies. Each guarded by a phalanx. (I don´t have the sources myself, i can only repeat, what i have read elsewhere). A population of five trillions (5*10^12 or 5*10^18?). How much of them serve as military and how much resources can you get from one planet?

And Koornacht never had the ability to assault the New Republic itself; they were a political problem. Of course, Leia also mentions that the New Republic is left to several tens of thousands of members, so much of its territory is left to allies and protectorates, not full members. Not to mention they were still reeling from war.

400 Species on 11.000 worlds. And why do you think the rest of the galaxy is allied or a protectorate to it and not independent or otherwise on its own?

And even if, what you said doesn´t sound like a united front to me. Or the condition they are in HoT. At that time they were also still reeling from war and perhaps even at the time of the NJO.

Corellian Crisis the heavy ships of the fleet were in dock or stuck babysitting the Imperial borders. A lack of ships to spare just means they were stretched thin. Not to mention that there could've been some political concerns that made an expeditionary force by the Bakurans more attractive. And Ackbar DID show up with the fleet, albeit late.

Having read the corellian crisis just recently, yes there were political concerns, too. However, that doesn´t change the fact that they were stretched thin. Very thin. No wall of ships defending the galactic core and inner rim. And Ackbar needed nearly four weeks to gather a force of twenty-five capital ships for a crisis taking place in one system. And during the HoT-Duology the situation wasn´t changed and because of the peace-treaty the number of ships was even reduced. Reduced for heavens sake.

You know what? Regardless of what you think about continuity--you're wrong.

Wrong? I´m not wrong about continuity, i come to different conclusions than you.

What do you see, concretely, in Vision of the Future?

We see in terms of fleet resources: small gunboats, based on TIE designs. Nothing else.

Bases; scale of military might: a single fortress made of rock (at least I thought they said obsidion in the book) with a defense system that couldn't knock out a single militarized yacht on a collision course. That speaks poorly for both the kind of turbolasers they could manage to build or pull from their massive Imperial allies, or the power of Chiss weaponry.

Troops: Chiss exiles with handguns.

Military expertise: a deserter and a defector--both of which deserved execution by a firing squad. Baron Fel is a traitor to Palpatine and the Empire. Parck neglected to respond to his Emperor's call (note that all the loyal Imperial and even warlord forces joined the resurgent Palpatine's banner; Parck did not).

And? We have never seen 25,000 ISDs in one place so they don´t exist?

According to your logic Thrawn would have mapped and conquered thirty-thousand starsystems with only a few gunboats, since those were the only ones we have seen in Vision of the Future. And since they wanted to lure Mara Jade into their clutches, do you think they would have placed an ISD over their fortress? Or an entire legion of Chiss in stormtrooper-armour, since there were so many hostile natives on Niraun?

As for the fortress: Its material was said to be able to withstand the fire of the heaviest turbolasers and we have never seen its defense-system used really intent on destroying. Do you really thing Parck and Fel wanted to kill Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade, even when they refused their „invitation“.

Besides, from the book i got the impression (given the conditon of the fortress, there was a touch of decay to it) that the stay of Parck and the others was only temporary (of course, this doesn´t fit with what other authors have made of it).

Concerning the milirary expertise: Crix Madine, Tycho Celchu, Arien Cracken and many others were also defectors and traitors to the empire.

Does this tell us something about their character or their competence?

And how do you know, if they were called to Palpatines banner or allowed to stay on their posts in the UR? And even if they were called and didn´t respond, i say right so: A force-whielding lunatic like the emperor, who keeps vast forces hidden in the deep core and allows his empire to crumble for five years doesn´t deserve better. And what the warlords are worth we have seen in Darksaber.

Everything else, and I mean everything, was based on Mara's assumption that because part of a fucking map was colored in, and merely because that area was thirty times the size of the Remnant, it ,ust have thirty times the shipyards...?

We have several sources, including the ISB or the BFC, that the empire established shipyards in every sector it controlled. And even if there were only five or ten, that is still enough to build up sizeable forces over ten/twenty years. Not to forget Thrawn´s quote about the HoT ensuring the final victory of the empire. And even if Thrawn´s forces at their height consisted of only one augmented sectorfleet, that would still be more than 30,000 ships. Considering the empire doubeling its military forces between ANH and TESB, that is nothing.

What kind of logic is that? Not only is the Unknown Regions in the backward and largely empty fringe (verified by common sense astronomic knowledge of galaxies and the star counts within the Unknown Regions and Chiss Space), but its undeveloped, hence Unknown. Why would it possess the military-industrial complex of a far more dense and important and developed part of the galaxy? Especially a part with citizens and an economy? Wouldn't Thrawn have recalled those mapping forces in his campiagn against the Republic? Wouldn't they have been recalled, as all Imperial forces were said to, with Palpatine's re-emurgance?

Logic. At least something has to be there to controll that much space. It might not be comparable to denser populated sectors of the galaxy if we go for ship per cubic-lightyear, but it should still be more, than you are willing to grant them. And more compared to several of those sectors during the first two decades of the NR.

It is unknown. We can´t be sure, if its underdeveloped, otherwise we would know. For all we know, the builders of the corellian system or other highly advanced civilisation could live there in happy, self-chosen isolation. But i´ll admit, that is nit-picking. And i never claimed they are as populated or industrialized as the core. I only asked to consider them to have a part of that abilities (with in official EU isn´t that much, too). And while i hate to quote Darksaber, the warlords of the resource-poor and artificially settled DeepCore were able to built sizeable fleets. Why not a force controlling thirty-thousand systems in the UR?

As for Thrawn not recalling those mapping-forces during his campeign: First he could still operate with one quater of the empire (the part he knew about), second, he wouldn´t have weakened his powerbase in the UR and as a third, he probabely couldn´t because there were still „unknown threats“ (that were suddenly dealt with at the time of DarkJourney.

The re-emurgance of Palpatine is another matter: It might be possible, that at the time of TTT it would have been right for Thrawn to say, that his HoT-forces would „ensure the final victory“ of the empire and this wouldn´t be the case, if they were called back one year later. However we don´t know, if they were really called back and even if, we don´t know, if they followed the call (since Parck would have been the one to execute that order). Besides that, how do you call a shipyard back? And if there were several colonies for the families of the imperial crewers of those ships, wouldn´t they have returned with their ships after Palpatine´s final death in EE?

Evidence suggests there is not much there, and Gamer 5 only verified that. It doesn't make sense for the Unknown Regions to be highly developed, or they wouldn't be ignored and Unknown and in the backwaters.

Somehow I find that more important than Mara's hunch. And as we say, Gamer 5 is canonical.

Absence of evidence isn´t evidence of absence (God, i like the sound of that).

Just that it is more than Mara´s hunch. And the last time i checked Gamer 5 was as official as any other EU-Source, nothing more.

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:
Besides that DarkEmpire sucked. I wouldn´t cry a tear, if someday somebody at LFL declares it unofficial.

You are not alone.

Then we lose the Eclipse and a fuckload of other capital ship designs which show what the Imperial navy should look like.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:
Besides that DarkEmpire sucked. I wouldn´t cry a tear, if someday somebody at LFL declares it unofficial.

You are not alone.

Then we lose the Eclipse and a fuckload of other capital ship designs which show what the Imperial navy should look like.

Which I do believe we never saw again.

Stravo wrote:Which I do believe we never saw again.

Someone doesn't know what Marvel is, what the Jedi Knight games are, Episode II ICS, Han Solo Adventures (featuring the 2 km Invincible dreadnought).

FTeik wrote:

All I see is whining and dismissal of the Dark Empire Sourcebook because you don't like it.

My apologizes, that i don´t like the idea of dozens of different warships showing up and never be seen again.

Yeah, because Zahn's grand vision of six ISDs being the only major fleet in the Empire and never even referring to anything else is brilliant.

The idea that the Empire is somehow incapable of building larger ships, and that anything would be interim between the 17.6 kilometer Executor and the 1.6 km ISD.

Apparently you never doesn't know what Marvel is, what the Jedi Knight games are, Episode II ICS, Han Solo Adventures (featuring the 2 km Invincible dreadnought).

Hell, what about the canonical ROTJ "communications ship" and the aberrant destroyer?

I'm never not amused by people who think the Empire never built anything between their command ship and destroyer, even though there an eleven fold difference in length and god knows how much in volume.

They look at the Dodonna calcs and the fact that the Death Star II was 60% constructed in six months with no dedicated shipyard facilities from raw materials and was worth the volume of 24 million ISD and conclude the ISD had to be mother of all warships, in coordinace with WEG.

Nevermind that common refitted frieghters can be double the length. Old Dreadnought from thousands of years ago are much larger.

I don't know why I'm bothering. If you don't recognize that Dark Empire is more in line with the correct scale of a galaxy-wide civilization nothing I'm going to say is going to change that.

Besides, the "it is never seen again" is not only wrong, its also an appeal to popularity. Do we accept the 8 km length because it is named a lot? Does the number of repetitions mean anything from a logical point of view? Great logic, Stravo and FTeik.

FTeik wrote:Forgive me for not liking World-Devastators, Eclipse-Class-Superstardestroyers, Galaxy-Guns, Shadow-Droids, Imperial Sentinels, Sovereign-Protectors (as if the royal guard wouldn´t have been enough), Chrysalis-beasts and so on in one single story-arc.

So what? They wanted to show us a lot of new stuff. How is it any different from Palpatine in the movie era? He always built massive weapons and gizmos. What about Thrawn relying on wonderous gimmicks? Ysalamiri? Clones? A phantom fleet? A Dark Jedi Master who can control a whole fleet's worth of crewmen?

And the Galaxy Gun is semi-rediculous in my opinion. I barely stomach it, and I did not enjoy Dark Empire too, so the Chrysalis Beasts is out too.

Besides, the fact that it all boils down to Force Users duking it out touches back to a movie theme: "Do not be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Not matter what machines Palpatine did, he couldn't defeat the lightside. This theme is spelled out in notes at the end of the Dark Empire Trade Paperback, so I don't know why I'm baby-feeding this to you.

FTeik wrote:My excuses for not liking Luke Skywalker turning to the dark Side, although he sucessfully resisted this temptation in RotJ.

"Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Furthermore, you lost the whole damn point to Dark Empire. Luke didn't fall to the Dark Side. He knew Palpatine wanted a right-hand. Palpatine knew he wanted to sabotage the war and Palpatine's plans. It was a sacrifice and a trial for Luke, in the foot-steps of Ulic Qel-Droma. A contest of wills, that, with the help of the other Skywalker, Leia, he won.

The whole "oh God Luke fell to the Dark Side" is unfortunately the lazy minded interpretation of later works. Luke infiltrated the greatest evil to destroy it from within. He tested the boundaries of Light and Dark. He risked losing himself for the galaxy.

He willing went to Palpatine to try and destroy him. He succeeded where Qel-Droma failed.

FTeik wrote:When else have we ever seen so much darksider(-pussies) in one place (come on, most of them were really laughable).

I told you I didn't like Dark Empire II. It was unnecessary and corny. It was mediocre at best and crappy at worst.

FTeik wrote:And in nearly every other source we have, Palpatine is either running the show or manipulating things to his advantage. While being emperor he is the one pulling the strings of his underlings or (as a senator and chancellor) keeping an eye on everthing, that could be of interest to him. I somehow doubt he changed the habits, that allowed him to achive the position he is in.

Besides, with exception of the last issue i didn´t tried to prove the things seen or happening in DarkEmpire to be out of continuity or to be of no consequence for the SW-universe. I only explained, why i don´t like them and why i wouldn´t care, if DE would be declared un-official. But that is a question of taste.

Indeed on taste, though I have to say it is very harsh and judgemental on a work to say something like that. Zahn annoys me, but I'd never want to lose his works to SW.

And Palpatine was controlling everything. He controlled the fall of the Empire, he controlled Thrawn's demise, he controlled the Imperial Civil War, he tried to control Luke. Everything about Dark Empire was about Palpatine's attempt and failure to establish manipulation and control where he'd lost it. The confident and visionary evil genius of ROTJ is gone--replaced by a broken, vendictive, and deeply furious man with questionable sanity. Palpatine could never return to what he was. It was Luke's job, however, to finish what his father started, and put an end to the despot who refuses to die.

FTeik wrote:Why do you value a comment from Stent more, than one of Mara Jade.

Because Stent is PART of the Hand of Thrawn, and has lived and served out there. I think he has a better appreciation for the situation than the version that was given to her by two traitors just in desire to recruit her.



Did you really need me to tell you that? Jesus Christ. Dismissal of sources anyone?

FTeik wrote:[Especially if he was only trying to mock her? And what about Grodin Tierce quoting Thrawn himself that „ the hand of Thrawn would ensure the final victory of the empire“? Or that Parck and Fel were convinced, that Mara would join them, as soon as she had seen, whats going on in the unknown regions?

Because Parck and Fel are fanatics. They rant and rave on threats never seen or observed like Hitler screaming about Bolshevik hordes on the border. I'll trust a recruit who's been fighting like him than two Imperial officers who derelicted their duty to the Empire. You have yet to prove how he would be exaggerating, despite the fact that all the evidence suggests that anything that the Hand of Thrawn and the Chiss could fight off is no threat to the galaxy proper. You're cherry picking.

FTeik wrote:And what are the exact quotes from Gamer 5?

Is this confirmed by the chiss themself or just assumption on the side of the New Republic? Do they use navigational beacons instead of nav-computers because they don´t have the technology or because they want to keep their population and military under control?

Ugh don't give me this bullshit.

It is written in third-person omniscient perspective. It is. And who cares if they have the technology or not? Point is, their fleets do not have navicomputer capabilities. The why is irrelevent. If they purposely backward themselves, that's just idiotic. Though I suppose you think if they have navicomputers they can just refit the electronic systems on their ships whenever they want on the drop of a coin. Ask Skimmer about the realism of THAT.

The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper

I have got a problem...

NJO Question

FTeik wrote:According to the AotC:ICS the sector-fleets of Kuat and Corellia were also limited to their sectors by their hyperdrives and the TradeFederation, the office of the Chancellor and the Jedi were the only ones with exact maps of everything. Can´t they do better or is this by design.

So what? So they didn't fit their warships with hyperdrives that are unnecessary? What does that prove? So not everyone keeps maps of parts of the galaxy that are irrelevent to them. What is your point? We know massive-scale probe droid exploration is practical.

FTeik wrote:As for no ships bigger than a Strike-Cruiser for nearly two decades every warship build by the New Republic was smaller than one mile. Does this mean they don´t have the knowledge to build such ships, that they lack the resources and infrastructure or the political will?

Home One anyone? And I take WEG's lengths for Mon Cals with a grain of salt. ILM charts plugged Mon Cal sketches at 1 mile, and MC-80B and MC-90 vessels can stand up to 17.6 km Executor-class command ships, and since they're often depicted as massive battlecruisers and used a flagships, I wouldn't be suprised if they were in the neighborhood of the Home One length.

Needless to say, your point is irrelevent. We know it is political will with them, due to Mon Mothma's "no big ships" crap and wanting to scap any Executor they captured. Your assumption that is the case with the Chiss is irrelevent for two reasons. a) it is an assumption, and b) none of that changes the fact that their fleet is made of pathetically tiny vessels.

If they can build them and refuse, that just makes them morons. It isn't as if in a major war they will have much time to suddenly ramp up production of huge ships (from their 29-world military industrial complex) since it wouldn't take long for a major galactic power to overrun 29 worlds in short order.

FTeik wrote:If i remember correct, there are only several thousand stars. And nothing suggest, that it has vastly greater economic capacity or resources. The Yevethans have only 22 worlds and then there are a few spare populated colonies from outside. No vastly greater economic base. And nothing, that suggest, that those resources are exploited in grand style. If the Koornacht-Cluster would have been such a powerhouse, it would have been more difficult for the imperials to keep it secret or their activities there would have been bigger.

Why? A galaxy wide civilization hasn't had problems leaving enough to be exploited later for the civilization to still be stagnant in the modern era. The Deep Core was easily kept secret despite being a huge powerhouse. Globular clusters contain fewer post-helium elements, and are outside the galactic disk, making them more likely to be ignored.

Furthermore, thousands of stars is in itself vastly greater material resources than the Chiss. There is known to be more stuff there than in Chiss Space, which is in the galactic halo.

FTeik wrote:One homeworld and twenty-nine colonies. Each guarded by a phalanx. (I don´t have the sources myself, i can only repeat, what i have read elsewhere). A population of five trillions (5*10^12 or 5*10^18?). How much of them serve as military and how much resources can you get from one planet?

Not as much as from thousands of star systems. And the Mining Guild had billions of chosen mining worlds.

And the American trillion is the one being used. I'm not really impressed by their population--its only a 2.5 hundred times larger than the Emperor's private retreat world. Its much smaller than Coruscant's population.

And I can tell you that most military forces in SW aren't very impressive based on single planets. Especially when they have only Strike Cruisers and no navicomputers.

Gamer 5 wrote:The heart of Chiss politics lies on Csilla, and in the four ruling families. At the House Palace in Csilla’s capital city of Csaplar can be found the Cabinet and Parliament. The 28 outlying Chiss colonies are represented in the Parliament by apointed governors, or House leaders.

There are 29 worlds, period.

FTeik wrote:400 Species on 11.000 worlds. And why do you think the rest of the galaxy is allied or a protectorate to it and not independent or otherwise on its own?

Since the New Republic had expeditions to the Outer Rim they must have at least had some presence out there.

I theorize that the New Republic at this period was composed of a small "core" of full members who totally give their soveriegnty to the NR, with the vast majority of the NR being protectorates and other semi-independent groups who raise their own militaries, and can request NR help. A federation-within-a-confederation if you will. It explains a lot of things--why so few members yet so much throw-weight for the NR? Why the New Republic had been able to defeat an Imperial incursion before and after the crisis, while so little seemed to be available with the Yevetha.

Either way, the NR clearly had more as of the NJO.

FTeik wrote:And even if, what you said doesn´t sound like a united front to me. Or the condition they are in HoT. At that time they were also still reeling from war and perhaps even at the time of the NJO.

I think my "core federation within a confederation" idea explains a lot. The New Republic has an odd-ball combo of central government and military attributes, and then has a lot of semi-independents and local fleets and militias.

FTeik wrote:Having read the corellian crisis just recently, yes there were political concerns, too. However, that doesn´t change the fact that they were stretched thin. Very thin. No wall of ships defending the galactic core and inner rim. And Ackbar needed nearly four weeks to gather a force of twenty-five capital ships for a crisis taking place in one system. And during the HoT-Duology the situation wasn´t changed and because of the peace-treaty the number of ships was even reduced. Reduced for heavens sake.

Ask Skimmer about military logistics and come back to me. The fleet was in moth-balls. But I suppose you want to throw out the Chronology too?

FTeik wrote:And? We have never seen 25,000 ISDs in one place so they don´t exist?

That's different. We had a standing officer of the military give a statement on the military's size.

This is actually made minimalist by both the Death Stars, the fact Palpatine threw a Sector Group just to pin the entire Rebellion in place and the Rebels were still outnumbered. Giel's armada in Marvel, Dark Empire fleets, etc.

Pelleaon's quote told us what always made sense in terms of the overall scale. It is impossible to "lose" a Sector in the middle of a spiral galaxy. Gamer and a strict interpretation of what we see in VoTF is totally consistent with a fleet in the mostly empty galactic halo.

But a hunch made by looking a the fact that a mapping mission had been completed that is actually contradicted by other evidence is evidently perfect logic to you and on par with Pelleaon's statement and supporting evidence. Since that is perfectly sensical to you, I have little to say.

FTeik wrote:According to your logic Thrawn would have mapped and conquered thirty-thousand starsystems with only a few gunboats, since those were the only ones we have seen in Vision of the Future. And since they wanted to lure Mara Jade into their clutches, do you think they would have placed an ISD over their fortress? Or an entire legion of Chiss in stormtrooper-armour, since there were so many hostile natives on Niraun?

They couldn't call one in afterward? It would've made perfect sense. Why was Nirauan so paralyzed by losing a hangar full of gunboats? Half-ass protection for Thrawn's last great hope?

No--I think that the mapping fleet was probably worth maybe a Death Squadron or two and he left some small outposts and alliances here and there. Red Sky Blue Flame doesn't show anything beyond Thrawn's destroyer. They were probably recalled either by Thrawn during his campiagn, or by Palpatine during his.

FTeik wrote:As for the fortress: Its material was said to be able to withstand the fire of the heaviest turbolasers

Evidence?

FTeik wrote:and we have never seen its defense-system used really intent on destroying. Do you really thing Parck and Fel wanted to kill Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade, even when they refused their „invitation“.

Besides, from the book i got the impression (given the conditon of the fortress, there was a touch of decay to it) that the stay of Parck and the others was only temporary (of course, this doesn´t fit with what other authors have made of it).

Yeah, it was permanent, even though the NEGTC says otherwise, and the same book indicates he'd had his information base with his clone for the last ten years. That's IN VOTF!

FTeik wrote:Concerning the milirary expertise: Crix Madine, Tycho Celchu, Arien Cracken and many others were also defectors and traitors to the empire.

So what? Does that change the fact that Thrawn's little cluster of loyal minions are traitors to either the Chiss (exiles; refused to be awknowledged by the ruling families--just like Thrawn) or to the Empire?

FTeik wrote:Does this tell us something about their character or their competence?

It tells me Thrawn built a movement out of fanatics who went traitor and live for him, according to Stent. Everything is for Thrawn, and you're telling me they're not fanatics?

FTeik wrote:And how do you know, if they were called to Palpatines banner or allowed to stay on their posts in the UR?

Because all Imperial forces were said to join Palpatine's war.

FTeik wrote:And even if they were called and didn´t respond, i say right so: A force-whielding lunatic like the emperor, who keeps vast forces hidden in the deep core and allows his empire to crumble for five years doesn´t deserve better

He purified the weak from the strong. And Palpatine is hardly a lunatic. He was Thrawn's superior and destroyed him.

And you're still skipping the fact. They're all fanatical traitors who want to support Thrawn's crusade to rule the galaxy.

FTeik wrote:We have several sources, including the ISB or the BFC, that the empire established shipyards in every sector it controlled. And even if there were only five or ten, that is still enough to build up sizeable forces over ten/twenty years.

More assumptions. Do you have any real evidence even though the Hand of Thrawn is castle filled with fanatics with hand guns and with a small cache of gunboats?

FTeik wrote:Not to forget Thrawn´s quote about the HoT ensuring the final victory of the empire.

Do you READ THE BOOK? It was the information in the Hand of Thrawn that was the key. And besides, it contained his clone--of course he thought it was the last hope of the Empire.

FTeik wrote:And even if Thrawn´s forces at their height consisted of only one augmented sectorfleet, that would still be more than 30,000 ships. Considering the empire doubeling its military forces between ANH and TESB, that is nothing.

I still see no evidence. And what difference would one augmented sector fleet make? It'd give the Imperial Remnant a little more wiggle room. Not much else though.

FTeik wrote:Logic. At least something has to be there to controll that much space.

Not really. We know from Force Heretic II that the Unknown Regions are part of the overall galaxy with only hundreds of thousands of stars. That volume if in the galaxy proper would contain 30 billion.

That's worse than a 1/30,000 star ratio between the Unknown Regions and a proportional percentage of the galactic disk.

Hell, the entire Unknown Regions has worse than a 1/300 star ratio to the Chommel Sector, a lightly populated Mid Rim sector.

Let's not stop there. There are no more than 29 inhabited Chiss Worlds.

Rounded down, that is one inhabited planet in the Chiss' sector, for every one thousand, three-hundred, and eighty inhabited worlds in the Chommel Sector.

FTeik wrote:It might not be comparable to denser populated sectors of the galaxy if we go for ship per cubic-lightyear, but it should still be more, than you are willing to grant them. And more compared to several of those sectors during the first two decades of the NR.

I dunno. The numbers above are pretty damning.

FTeik wrote:It is unknown. We can´t be sure, if its underdeveloped, otherwise we would know. For all we know, the builders of the corellian system or other highly advanced civilisation could live there in happy, self-chosen isolation. But i´ll admit, that is nit-picking. And i never claimed they are as populated or industrialized as the core. I only asked to consider them to have a part of that abilities (with in official EU isn´t that much, too). And while i hate to quote Darksaber, the warlords of the resource-poor and artificially settled DeepCore were able to built sizeable fleets. Why not a force controlling thirty-thousand systems in the UR?

Because we saw the fleets, and they were left-overs recalled during Operation Shadow Hand, mostly. And where's the thirty thousand systems quote come from?

FTeik wrote:As for Thrawn not recalling those mapping-forces during his campeign: First he could still operate with one quater of the empire (the part he knew about), second, he wouldn´t have weakened his powerbase in the UR and as a third, he probabely couldn´t because there were still „unknown threats“ (that were suddenly dealt with at the time of DarkJourney.

Its directly stated that his primary mission was always the Chiss--if they had an immediate threat he was already putting them in danger by leaving. Therefore the threats had probably been fought aside at the moment. I don't imagine Thrawn leaving thousands of ships when he was so desperate to nab 200 dreadnoughts, and while Palpatine was still quietly syphoning off his forces.

FTeik wrote:The re-emurgance of Palpatine is another matter: It might be possible, that at the time of TTT it would have been right for Thrawn to say, that his HoT-forces would „ensure the final victory“ of the empire and this wouldn´t be the case, if they were called back one year later.

Yeah, because Thrawn's words are gospel and cannot be violated or the universe will self-destruct. Of COURSE he didn't know what was going to happen the next year. He was fucking dead.

And for all of "Thrawn's predictions must be right" he certainly foresaw Palpatine returning, eh?

FTeik wrote:Besides that, how do you call a shipyard back? And if there were several colonies for the families of the imperial crewers of those ships, wouldn´t they have returned with their ships after Palpatine´s final death in EE?

What shipyards and what colonies? Deepdocks are by nature mobile, and Palpatine managed to move populations to the Deep Core without them even knowing where they were. Byss' inhabitants don't know they live in the Deep Core.

FTeik wrote:Absence of evidence isn´t evidence of absence (God, i like the sound of that).

Is that a creationist I here? You do not assume things exist without evidence to suggest such. Mara's Leap-in-logic notwithstanding. We don't give much credit to Trek characters that make stupid statements and illogical conclusions, so why Mara based on colored dots on a map. All that meant was those stars were cataloged.

FTeik wrote:Just that it is more than Mara´s hunch. And the last time i checked Gamer 5 was as official as any other EU-Source, nothing more.

Except there are no other concrete sources that support Mara's hunch. It is the exception to everything, to Red Sky Blue Flame (written by Zahn), to Gamer 5, etc.

The Chiss are backward racist communists in a tiny mostly empty part of the galaxy. The great threats and great fleets have never been heard from except for some pirates/raiders in and Thrawn's destroyer respectively in Zahn's own stories.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:Which I do believe we never saw again.

Someone doesn't know what Marvel is, what the Jedi Knight games are, Episode II ICS, Han Solo Adventures (featuring the 2 km Invincible dreadnought).

Those ships we didn´t see again, too (yes, i know it sucks).

FTeik wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:Which I do believe we never saw again.

Someone doesn't know what Marvel is, what the Jedi Knight games are, Episode II ICS, Han Solo Adventures (featuring the 2 km Invincible dreadnought).

Those ships we didn´t see again, too (yes, i know it sucks).

Most of them might have been destroyed...

"Palpatine is hardly a lunatic"
"The confident and visionary evil genius of ROTJ is gone--replaced by a broken, vendictive, and deeply furious man with questionable sanity."

Pick one. The evidence clearly points to Palpatine being insane at the point DE takes place.

What?

Are you replying to someone or something?

Just a bit annoyed by Illuminatus Primus's blinding hatred of all things Thrawn. A half-dozen statements by Parck and Fel make them ranting and raving fanatics, but somehow Palpatine's actions during DE aren't the mark of true insanity.

The only problem I had with DE...is that it started out okay...but in the end Palpatine was felled by his overconfidence.......AGAIN.

Villain: I have a super plan, a supreme army, and I've defeated my greatest foe...oops tripped over my arrogance again...damn Endor.

I can accept him making think Luke won, but he should've destroyed his friends the instant they arrived (letting Han, Chewie, 3PO, and R2 live served little purpose). It was like the writer went...shit Palpatine's winning...better make him fuck up!

Palpatine's original plan worked great, though it used another super weapon. This one at least was unique and more then able to defend itself...yet was felled by one droid(sorta sad) and his own arrogance(yes, I'll let Luke think he's winning and what do you mean he downloaded the plans of the World Devastors into his small droid?!)

.......yeah mark of a great genius.

DE2 for me sucked...and showed why DE just should've ended(oi...just did not read of pace well) and Empire's End just was the stab it needed to die.

consequences wrote:Just a bit annoyed by Illuminatus Primus's blinding hatred of all things Thrawn. A half-dozen statements by Parck and Fel make them ranting and raving fanatics, but somehow Palpatine's actions during DE aren't the mark of true insanity.

Did you read your own quote above? About questionable sanity? Dark Empire Palpatine was a defeated man who was past his prime and power, more motivated by sheer rage and revenge than the calculated evil we see before.

But he wasn't an idiot. He managed a war far more effectively than anyone before or after him.

Do you have any proof to offer that His Imperial Majesty showed evidence that he had no comprehension of the rightness or wrongness of his actions? Can you prove insanity? Or are you shooting your mouth off?

Palpatine's motivations and desires never changed--he was simply defeated and defeated in such a way that he would never be what he was before. Parck and Fel are fanatics--they are stated as living and dying for a man and culture that regards them as racially inferior trash and you expect a different analysis, objectively?

Again, everyone assumes that because I am nauseated by the massive leaps in logic and benefits of doubt handed to the blue man that I hate him and the story he is written in. Blind hatred? I've given literally pages of justification on this.

Zahn's work is some of the best EU. Thrawn is one of the best EU characters.

He's still overrated and uber as hell. Zaarin was arguably as good, and each of the other Grand Admirals were total geniuses in their own right.

But some crap from esp. the Hand of Thrawn duology was just cum-soaked BS. "And if Palpatine was a step ahead, a tactician like Thrawn was two steps ahead." WTF? What does tactics have to do with Court politics? Are we really supposed to believe that Thrawn bested the professional politicians and advisors and beuracrats at their own game having only experienced the Court for a few months? We supposed to believe he had better foresight with this stuff than Palpatine, who was a Sith Lord with Pre-cognition? Who had Thrawn killed? What a steaming turd.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:But some crap from esp. the Hand of Thrawn duology was just cum-soaked BS. "And if Palpatine was a step ahead, a tactician like Thrawn was two steps ahead." WTF? What does tactics have to do with Court politics? Are we really supposed to believe that Thrawn bested the professional politicians and advisors and beuracrats at their own game having only experienced the Court for a few months? We supposed to believe he had better foresight with this stuff than Palpatine, who was a Sith Lord with Pre-cognition? Who had Thrawn killed? What a steaming turd.

That one line nearly ruined the entire book for me. I don't understand what would compel someone to write something soooooo fucked up